Looking for better braking power

[Fordman114]

I am just finishing up my build. The body is off for paint and I have been go-carting the chassis. I have the FFR provided dual master cylinders and FFR provided front brakes. I have a IRS with brake rotors and calipers from a 2019 Mustang GT S550. I haven't had the car up to highway speed yet, as I have not received my registration and just recently put insurance on it. Then the snow arrived, so it will have to wait til spring. The car did stop fairly quickly from 40 mph but I have to really stand on the brakes to even get the smallest chirp from the tires. I can't lock them up at all.

What are my choices without completely overhauling the braking system. Can a hydro-boost system be installed easily? I do have a power steering system on the car, or would a wilwood front brake upgrade work for me?

[CaptB]

I've never been disappointed by Wilwood.

[GTBradley]

Have you looked into more aggressive brake pads? I've seen multiple threads on this topic in the past where they mention the Hawk HP pads.

[Gordon Levy]

I have several options for you depending on how you use your car and the type of wheels you are using. feel free to call me at 520-494-2745.

[cobrajj]

The change to high torque Hawk HP Plus pads, completly changed my scary original FFR kit brake performance. The braking distance is much shorter, with far less pedal pressure ( like power brakes), but VERY dusty. Have to wipe down the wheels after each drive, but I'll live with the huge improvement.

[rthomas98]

To be honest I would not do anything until you can fully bed the brakes. Based on what you described you have done thus far this hasn't happened yet. I had the same issue until the car was registered and I got some mileage and was able to do this. Changed the brakes dramatically. Autozone actually has a excellent write-up on to do it correctly. https://www.autozone.com/diy/brakes/bedding-brakes

[Ducky2009]

As rthomas9u8 said, bedding the brakes probably hasn't happened yet. I drove mine for a year in gel coat and still didn't like the braking. I ended up adding vacuum assist power brakes. Whitby Motorcars has a kit for approx $600, including the new brake pedal.
NOTE: Whitby delivery dates were way out (in 2017). I purchased all the parts from AutoZone and made my own brake pedal.

[Fordman114]

To be honest I would not do anything until you can fully bed the brakes. Based on what you described you have done thus far this hasn't happened yet. I had the same issue until the car was registered and I got some mileage and was able to do this. Changed the brakes dramatically. Autozone actually has a excellent write-up on to do it correctly. https://www.autozone.com/diy/brakes/bedding-brakes

Thanks for your replies. I think I will take your advice on waiting until I can get the car on the road. It's going to be a cruiser, I have no plans on doing autocross. If I can't get better brakes after bedding the pads in, I may try the Hawk HP pads in the front. At this point, having the chassis complete, I would rather not do any major mods.

[jts359]

I just completed a power booster conversion on my MKII and I could not be happier with the results , Previous to the conversion I did the brake pad swaps etc. and while better nothing beats this conversion, Ed

[Fordman114]

Can anyone tell me what calipers are from that are supplied by FFR for the standard 11" brakes. What year Mustang would I need to get pads for if I were to upgrade the pads?

[Fman]

You can't go wrong with Wilwood but will also cost you. If you want a less expensive alternative I went PowerStop kit with drilled and slotted rotors. PS claims 20% better braking with there kit. I have 4600 miles on them now and they stop the car fine and will easily lock up tires. The supplied GT brakes were designed for a 3500 lb car, the Cobra is 2400 lbs on a heavy day. They are more than adequate and safe for daily driving around town. I even used them on a beginner track day and had no braking issues. That being said manual brakes have a different feel than power brakes and do require more pedal effort.

Another item to check is making sure your brake bias is set up properly.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-K1301-26

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-AR-85160XPR

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-Z26-347

[BEAR-AvHistory]

The change to high torque Hawk HP Plus pads, completly changed my scary original FFR kit brake performance. The braking distance is much shorter, with far less pedal pressure ( like power brakes), but VERY dusty. Have to wipe down the wheels after each drive, but I'll live with the huge improvement.

Same here FFR pads scared the crap out of me went to HAWK HP+pads. There are good HAWK pads not as dusty if thats an issue. I have found a product called "OutLast" makes cleaning the dust very easy. Its sprayed on clean wheels & lets you wipe the wheels down when they get dirty.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=128532&d=1589770727

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=128533&d=1589770754

[CraigS]

What Kevin says about HP+ and Outlast. You will have fantastic brakes. I know that because my MkII had standard Mustang front calipers and 2015 IRS rear calipers just like you have. The effort was just a little higher than my Tacoma pickup. Please do not think about changing to another system. And definitely do not get rid of the MCs w/ adjustable front to rear bias. Having the F to R bias adjusted correctly is just as important as the rest of the system. Put HP+ front and rear, get them bedded in, and then start adjusting front to rear bias. Do that at 40mph. Keep cranking in more rear until you get the rears locking first. (when that happens you will be glad you are only doing 40). Then adjust just enough so the rears don't lock first.

[Fordman114]

What Kevin says about HP+ and Outlast. You will have fantastic brakes. I know that because my MkII had standard Mustang front calipers and 2015 IRS rear calipers just like you have. The effort was just a little higher than my Tacoma pickup. Please do not think about changing to another system. And definitely do not get rid of the MCs w/ adjustable front to rear bias. Having the F to R bias adjusted correctly is just as important as the rest of the system. Put HP+ front and rear, get them bedded in, and then start adjusting front to rear bias. Do that at 40mph. Keep cranking in more rear until you get the rears locking first. (when that happens you will be glad you are only doing 40). Then adjust just enough so the rears don't lock first.



Thanks Craig

[CaptB]

I have several options for you depending on how you use your car and the type of wheels you are using. feel free to call me at 520-494-2745.

Gordon is the absolute expert here. I needed a setup for the 15" wheel option and his solution was flawless.

[Fordman114]

You can't go wrong with Wilwood but will also cost you. If you want a less expensive alternative I went PowerStop kit with drilled and slotted rotors. PS claims 20% better braking with there kit. I have 4600 miles on them now and they stop the car fine and will easily lock up tires. The supplied GT brakes were designed for a 3500 lb car, the Cobra is 2400 lbs on a heavy day. They are more than adequate and safe for daily driving around town. I even used them on a beginner track day and had no braking issues. That being said manual brakes have a different feel than power brakes and do require more pedal effort.

Another item to check is making sure your brake bias is set up properly.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-K1301-26

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-AR-85160XPR

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWR-Z26-347

Thanks Fran, I may upgrade the rotors and pads in the front with the Powerstop kit and upgrade the rear pads with the Hawk HP Plus pads. The rear rotors are larger than the fronts with my setup.

[nuhale]

I went thru this last year. I do have a hydroboost so not quite the same. Your rears should be fine as I believe those are 13" rotors. Your fronts are 11" "ish". I did install the Hawk HPS pads on all 4. This was NIGHT AND DAY to FFR parts. They do dust but I didn't think it was a hassle. I could have left this be and would have been perfect. I wanted a bigger brake look so I swapped the fronts for the powerstop cobra big brake setup KC1304D (link below). For the past season I have had this setup up front with the powerstop pads and Hawk in the rear. I do have the smaller fox brake setup in the rear. This has been roughly equal to the hawk in the front. Net net if you want to do it on the cheap try Hawk. Want the bigger rotors up front with a more sporty look go with the cobra powerstop swap.

Also note that those GT brakes have had some common issues with the phenolic piston jamming. I had it happen a few times which was another catalyst for swapping.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=11180777&jsn=723&_nck=ZExt1ysfqhqWnq%2BEvUNdS3Txyey60IDtnjPWF5UU9J0 BWQv7pvqZbh%2BYrdIIoJ2QVm1wiaiI%2B%2Bo3vjMjN%2Fscq 3njoEn03pcGL3JVL3SQ9pzj6wlFfcbFIvUZTrQbIOhSZok5lgJ 3iTSiFLXxQB5xQXjSzTiVCMRZoTGy9dVIlBakkNtg5HqjBIELf i%2B1bXGeMWVgdAAhYrxG6kzVwPeyU7LdEv8y2CY8A3JhnO7hO e1%2FYChr%2BscVmdDtFtXF%2FlWdnJGGLsUIGpUWNTLFhkv9E 48YAauLRmSBnq1DZexVeBuRvo%2F%2BkzqhIm2NaOO29JDEVoz E6Y2jy7%2BSCqq2cMOpyZ%2FugLOOtswB

check out my post #234 on some more detail.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34938-NUHale-s-MKIV-7275-Build-Thread-FFR-Premium-Top-Review&p=467837&viewfull=1#post467837

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Pucks in my original front calipers were sticking. Got a good 7 years out of the & was thinking Wilwood. They were all backordered. Since I was stuck with an undrivable car that needed new parts I took the opportunity to go the PowerStop Street Warrior Kit.

Based on the 2004 SVT Cobra calipers & the advice of a few guys here figured it would work for me. Very easy swap that fit inside 17" wheels. Can't make any comparison with the Wilwood but they are a much better choice than replacing with the originals. Also replaced the rears with PowerStop even though they are rebuilds of my existing 2004 SVT Cobra calipers. Was cosmetic decision to get the same red finish.

[nuhale]

I used the por15 red caliper paint for the rears. It wasn't a horrible process and its held up pretty good. The match isn't exact but you cant tell front to rear. Another option to consider.

[CraigS]

Over the years compound stagger has been a help to many. When you have front and rear basic fox Mustang brakes you have a system set up for a front heavy Mustang. In an FFR you need a bunch more rear brake since it is rear heavy by 3-4%. Hawk HPS in front and HP+ in back works fairly well w/ fox brakes. My experience w/ retrofitting the 15 IRS w/ it's brakes works great because the calipers/rotors/pads are much larger than fox Mustang parts.

[Fman]

Over the years compound stagger has been a help to many. When you have front and rear basic fox Mustang brakes you have a system set up for a front heavy Mustang. In an FFR you need a bunch more rear brake since it is rear heavy by 3-4%. Hawk HPS in front and HP+ in back works fairly well w/ fox brakes. My experience w/ retrofitting the 15 IRS w/ it's brakes works great because the calipers/rotors/pads are much larger than fox Mustang parts.

If you don't mind explaining how is the car rear heavy with the engine in the front holding the bulk of the weight? Other than a fuel tank and rear diff does not seem like there is much weight in the rear of the car. I am asking because I still feel like my bias is probably still not set up 100% properly. How do you have your front and rear set up %?

[rich grsc]

Every single roadster I've seen is heavier in the rear, even big blocks are rear biased. The engine is behind the front axles.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

If you don't mind explaining how is the car rear heavy with the engine in the front holding the bulk of the weight? Other than a fuel tank and rear diff does not seem like there is much weight in the rear of the car. I am asking because I still feel like my bias is probably still not set up 100% properly. How do you have your front and rear set up %?


What rich grsc said. Its considered a front mid engine car. Very few have scaled more weight on the front wheels. Was a very early question I asked of the FFR tech guys when I saw the brake specs. My original kit came with GT brake discs 11" in the front & SVT Cobra rear brake discs 12.99” in back.

The kit I installed maintained the 12.99" rear discs but upped the front ones to 12.9.


I used the por15 red caliper paint for the rears. It wasn't a horrible process and its held up pretty good. The match isn't exact but you cant tell front to rear. Another option to consider.

Was too lazy to go through a clean & rebuild process.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175206&d=1668892203

With this hobby one thing always leads to another, you never stop spending money on it. Changing FFR single reservoir to twin revivor system.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175213&d=1668898220

[Fman]

Every single roadster I've seen is heavier in the rear, even big blocks are rear biased. The engine is behind the front axles.

How do you have your brake bias set up? (front/rear %). If you slam your brakes do your rear brakes lock up before your front?

[rich grsc]

How do you have your brake bias set up? (front/rear %). If you slam your brakes do your rear brakes lock up before your front?
You never want the rears to lock up first.

[CraigS]

I adjust bias like this. At a max of about 40mph hit the brakes and see which end locks. Usually it will be the front so adjust in more rear by one turn and try it again. Keep adding rear until the rears lock first. Here is why you stay at about 40. The rear will start to step out when it locks first and it can get pretty exciting. Then go back towards the front but only 1/2 turn at a time because you are close to ideal. Just enough so the rears don't lock first. Depending how quickly you can get off the road, adjust, and get back going again it is a good idea to drive normally for 5 minutes or so so you don't get the brakes too hot. When you get the adjustment correct for ideal conditions the nice thing is that, in less than ideal conditions (cold weather, rain, dust or gravel on the road) the car will start locking the fronts first. Front locking first is much more stable than rear locking first.

[Fman]

I adjust bias like this. At a max of about 40mph hit the brakes and see which end locks. Usually it will be the front so adjust in more rear by one turn and try it again. Keep adding rear until the rears lock first. Here is why you stay at about 40. The rear will start to step out when it locks first and it can get pretty exciting. Then go back towards the front but only 1/2 turn at a time because you are close to ideal. Just enough so the rears don't lock first. Depending how quickly you can get off the road, adjust, and get back going again it is a good idea to drive normally for 5 minutes or so so you don't get the brakes too hot. When you get the adjustment correct for ideal conditions the nice thing is that, in less than ideal conditions (cold weather, rain, dust or gravel on the road) the car will start locking the fronts first. Front locking first is much more stable than rear locking first.

Thanks for this info, I have a bias adjuster knob so it is quick and easy to adjust. I think I am "close" to this setting but will confirm it again.

[CraigS]

Yep a knob really helps. One caution mainly because I don't know how long your car has been on the road. As you are probably aware brake pads need some bedding in to start. So there is always the possibility that yours are not completely bedded. So do your adjustment and sometime in the future (300-500 miles from now?) do it again.

[Danomatic]

I'm having the same problem. Kinda scary. I wonder if they make a ceramic pad? What is the year\range when ordering for the 11inch GT front brakes.