Learned distributor gear material the hard way

[nick7405]

Yesterday I was driving after installing some new stuff to test it out and car died hard on it’s face. Towed it back, check wiring was all good, Checked timing, no spark, removed distributor and saw this. 174812174813174814174812174813174814

[nick7405]

Will be removing the oil pan and cleaning that out, contacting blueprint and their recommendation for gear type. Distributor is the Holley hyperspark with an iron gear.

[rich grsc]

Steel

[nick7405]

Steel

Stupid oversight on my part

[Railroad]

Might need to check cam gear.
Good luck,

[weendoggy]

Will be removing the oil pan and cleaning that out, contacting blueprint and their recommendation for gear type. Distributor is the Holley hyperspark with an iron gear.

Did BP sell you the unit or did you get that as an after thought? Seems strange they'd sell a complete package (if purchased that way) with incorrect distributor gear.

[FF33rod]

Yeah I had to change the gear that the Hyperspark came with - had to have a shop do it. Seems to me the gear type they provide isn't that useful!

Steve

[rich grsc]

If Blueprint sold the engine with that distributor, then it's on them to take care of it.

[nick7405]

I did order the engine from blueprint however they didn’t have an fi option or sniper option so they removed the carb and distributor and coil from their package. 100% my fault

[skidd]

Dude! That suck big time!
I stressed and stressed about ensuring I got the exact dizzy I needed. Between the correct gear material and the correct oil pump shaft diameter, I was beyond paranoid. I was going to end up with a distributor that killed my engine.

[CaptB]

Yep with Hyperspark distributor gear has to be changed, Forte's built mine and had to change the gear on the Holley distributor.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I did order the engine from blueprint however they didn’t have an fi option or sniper option so they removed the carb and distributor and coil from their package. 100% my fault

No matter the induction roller cam is going to need a mellonized steel or composite gear. Sorry about your luck; hopefully none of the iron gear wound up getting through the filter.

Jeff

[John Ibele]

The OP is trying to resolve how the gear on his Hyperspark distributor got chewed up. I was interested in the responses, and attempted to confirm my own builder's choices. Turns out, not easy. Here's what I learned:



The Hyperspark distributor manual indicates the stock gear it's shipped with is "cast". Actually, it's a ductile iron, melonized gear.
Their steel gear is also melonized.
MSD indicated the iron gear choice was to provide an option compatible to the broadest possible customer set, including most hydraulic roller cams.
There can be other sources for gear wear beyond material choice (proper height on a decked block, high pressure / volume oil pumps).


Don't want to hijack the OP's main item, so I'll stop with what might be most helpful to the OP. But in case any Hyperspark distributor owner find if of use, notes on my deep dive below.




_____________________
I have an Erson hydraulic roller cam machined from a selectively austempered ductile iron (SADI) core, which is typical for a hydraulic roller cam. A call to the MSD tech line (provides the Holley Hyperspark distributor for Holley) confirmed that the stock gear provided with my 565-301BK distributor is an "iron" gear which is melonized. This is confirmed with a check of the Hyperspark Distributor manual (https://documents.holley.com/199r11525.pdf), which indicates that with one exception, the Hyperspark distributors are shipped with a "cast" gear (hold that thought before rushing to the reply button, please). Based on what I found, it seems that "cast" and "iron" do not necessarily add up to "cast iron" ... you need to know specifics.

A call to Erson cams confirmed that the stock gear shipped with the Hyperspark distributor is the right choice for my SADI core. According to the Erson rep, this "iron" gear would make it essentially an OE gear for this application, but regardless, it's compatible with my cam.

Page 7 of the Hyperspark manual gives part numbers for replacement gears, including the as-shipped "cast" gears. The gear which came stock with my distributor is Holley PN 85832. The specs at the Holley site indicate this is a ductile iron gear, polished and melonized. I confirmed both these items with a second call to the MSD tech line. In the manual on p. 7, just below the gear part numbers, there is a section with the title "GEAR INSTALLATION ON FORD DISTRIBUTORS". It seems to imply that they recommend replacing the stock gear ... that's not it. They're simply saying that if you plan to replace the gear, they recommend that you send it to them to replace (or have a qualified shop do it).

This article by Jeff Smith (https://www.streetmusclemag.com/features/twist-taking-confusion-distributor-gear-compatibility/) has good background on cam and distributor gear compatibility. It indicates that if your gear is melonized, it should play well with just about any cam. Unfortunately, the summary table confuses matters with its casual use of the term "cast iron". I believe the table Summit used in their website compounds the confusion. Also worthwhile noting (and maybe helpful to the OB), the article also suggests other contributors to gear wear, including not adjusting the distributor mounting height if your engine block and heads have been decked, and the use of high volume / high pressure oil pumps.

It's a confusing topic for a newbie, but after sifting through all the information available, I'm sticking with the fact that the manufacturer of my cam confirmed I'm good to go, and MSD / Holley confirmed it. Erson very clearly stated that their ductile iron camshaft is compatible with a stock OE gear, which means an iron gear. I have a ductile iron gear on my distributor, which is melonized. This is very different from the initial "cast iron" gears used on cast iron, flat tappet cams.

Happy to have experts correct anything I got wrong. Just passing along what might be helpful to others. And hopefully reducing confusion, not adding to it.

[CaptB]

Well there's
"It's a confusing topic for a newbie, but after sifting through all the information available, I'm sticking with the fact that the manufacturer of my cam confirmed I'm good to go, and MSD / Holley confirmed it." and then what folks like Mike Forte recommend.

Not saying they're wrong, but you have the guys like Mike in the trenches with decades of experience who have probably paid money to fix distributor gear failures and then the manufacture that says, heck yeah it will work!

Just my .02 cents and no disrespect to anyone (including manufactures) is intended. Hopefully ALL of us have good luck with our dist gears!

[John Ibele]

Yep CabtB, none taken. Also not trying to turn myself into an expert. Which is why I had a local builder with a stellar reputation build mine.

But, my builder hadn't used the Hyperspark distributor before, there's always something new coming along. Confirming compatibility seems like it should have been easier than it was.

I'm expecting Mike or a number of others with similar experience will confirm I cleared up the confusion, or correct me where I went wrong.

Edited my post to highlight what might be most helpful to the OP, separating out all the other jabbering. Cheers -- John



Well there's
"It's a confusing topic for a newbie, but after sifting through all the information available, I'm sticking with the fact that the manufacturer of my cam confirmed I'm good to go, and MSD / Holley confirmed it." and then what folks like Mike Forte recommend.

Not saying they're wrong, but you have the guys like Mike in the trenches with decades of experience who have probably paid money to fix distributor gear failures and then the manufacture that says, heck yeah it will work!

Just my .02 cents and no disrespect to anyone (including manufactures) is intended. Hopefully ALL of us have good luck with our dist gears!

[rich grsc]

John based on your cam type and material I believe you have the correct gear. That said, I wouldn't trust the info I got from MSD any farther than I can throw my car. I had an MSD distributor and needed to install a steel gear. When I called the help line, the technician said no you have to use the iron gear, "as no one makes a steel camshaft". I had a TrickFlow billet cam, it said right on the card, "you must use a steel gear". Well he insisted I was wrong all cams where made of iron not steel. I very politely explained where he put his info, then found someplace else to buy the gear.
So, your desire to verify what is correct from more than one source is sound thinking when it comes to distributor gears. Always match the cam material with the same on the distributor. Thats the safest route

[John Ibele]

John based on your cam type and material I believe you have the correct gear. That said, I wouldn't trust the info I got from MSD any farther than I can throw my car. I had an MSD distributor and needed to install a steel gear. When I called the help line, the technician said no you have to use the iron gear, "as no one makes a steel camshaft". I had a TrickFlow billet cam, it said right on the card, "you must use a steel gear". Well he insisted I was wrong all cams where made of iron not steel. I very politely explained where he put his info, then found someplace else to buy the gear.
So, your desire to verify what is correct from more than one source is sound thinking when it comes to distributor gears. Always match the cam material with the same on the distributor. Thats the safest route

Thanks Rich, I figured similar materials would be compatible. As you say, my first call to MSD must have been the tech unhelpful line. And didn't build confidence by just repeating what was in his cheat book. The Erson cams rep was, on the contrary, very helpful, and could go into the background of the choices they made. On my printed cam sheet it says, "SADI core, distributor gear type, OE" ... which was another confirmation from more than just the Erson rep.

[John Ibele]

John based on your cam type and material I believe you have the correct gear. That said, I wouldn't trust the info I got from MSD any farther than I can throw my car. I had an MSD distributor and needed to install a steel gear. When I called the help line, the technician said no you have to use the iron gear, "as no one makes a steel camshaft". I had a TrickFlow billet cam, it said right on the card, "you must use a steel gear". Well he insisted I was wrong all cams where made of iron not steel. I very politely explained where he put his info, then found someplace else to buy the gear.
So, your desire to verify what is correct from more than one source is sound thinking when it comes to distributor gears. Always match the cam material with the same on the distributor. Thats the safest route

So now, having hopefully not taken the OP's point completely off track ...

I'm thinking that someone would typically switch out the stock iron gear and move to steel if they had a billet steel cam? I think my main point of confusion is over melonizing, which seems like its a combination of surface hardening and polishing. And advertised as compatible with almost all cam types. And yet, Holley has both an iron melonized gear, and a steel melonized gear. Both with surface hardness quoted as Rc 55-60. Go figure.

[rich grsc]

John hopefully our discussion helps the OP. I just know my cam card said steel gear, and thats what I used. I have almost 14,000 miles and zero issues.

[nick7405]

Reading and quicklly digesting this, makes me think the gear installed from Holley on the hyperspark was of a proper material choice and that alone should not have caused it to break. The car isn't even licensed or registered yet so only has ~100 miles from puttering around and testing. This has caused a major headache and now have an oil pan off a brand-new blueprint engine and having to do a thorough cleaning now to make sure all metal is removed. The F up already has invested a good 10 hours of my time and now reading this I'm not positive who is at fault, whether it was me or Holley. I know two years ago I did have a conversation on the phone with Holley regarding this, but I don't remember the specifics but considering the gear didn't get changed makes me think I got the thumbs up, I honestly don't remember the specifics.

The thought of this stuff getting past the filter and getting into the engine components makes me sick to the stomach.

[Norm B]

My Hyperspark distributor came with a cast gear intended for a flat tappet cam shaft. The instructions had this printed in bold! I was running a flat tappet cam at the time so this worked fine. That cam had a casting flaw and lost a part of the machined surface on a lobe and ate a lifter.
I feel your pain about metal in your engine. My WIX oil filter didn't let anything by. The bearings were fine and no metal filings were found in any of the top end components. The oil pump was shot and there was a few polish lines on a couple of cylinders. The lobe that that failed was the #5 exhaust and the cylinders affected were 5 and 6. All the cylinders were honed and new rings installed.
You are going to want to check your cylinders for damage.
The new camshaft E303 roller cam and required a steel distributor gear. I can look up the part number if you want but, your cam instructions should have a recommended gear and I would use that!

Good Luck

Norm

[John Ibele]

Nick, I’m thinking about the fact that if BluePrint uses reconditioned blocks and they are decked as part of that, they might need to use a shim to get the distributor at the right height for the gears to align properly. That’s probably worth a check with them, just to rule out one possible cause.

[rich grsc]

Decking the block won't change the position of the distributor.

[John Ibele]

Decking the block won't change the position of the distributor.

For just decking, I agree. If they do any intake manifold modifications to go with that, I’d expect distributor vertical location could be affected. My main point was to check with BP more generally about whether they do anything special to ensure good gear mesh when they are using a reconditioned block.

[J R Jones]

I did maintenance and repair on a collection of five vintage Studebakers. The 1928 "Big Six" Commander had failed the distributor drive gear. When I got it apart I found a coil spring pre-loading the right angle gear set. Someone had assembled the pre-load with the spring bottomed out. With new gears I had no assembly directions and my SWAG was 50-60% spring load, not bottomed out. It worked properly.

That leads me to suggest a way to determine distributor gear pre-load: With no load on the cam lobes and no timing chain, turn the cam with the distributor to feel for binding and maybe a small bit of clearance.
It would require a SWAG to determine shim thickness under the distributor to reduce gear pre-load.
jim

[rich grsc]

For just decking, I agree. If they do any intake manifold modifications to go with that, I’d expect distributor vertical location could be affected. My main point was to check with BP more generally about whether they do anything special to ensure good gear mesh when they are using a reconditioned block.
NO. Neither decking the block, or machining the intake area can change the distributor height. The distributor sets in a machined recess in the front of the block and is in no way related to either the head or intake surfaces.

[John Ibele]

NO. Neither decking the block, or machining the intake area can change the distributor height. The distributor sets in a machined recess in the front of the block and is in no way related to either the head or intake surfaces.

Yes indeed it does. Thanks for the correction Rich.

[nick7405]

Thanks to john I dug a little more into the material and he is correct that is isn't cast iron, but melonized iron. The however is, when I was talking to Holley tech on the phone I told them their document to the hyperspark says cast iron and asked where he could show me in a reference/instruction that it's melonized and he had no reply other than all msd distributors with iron gear is melonized. i asked a second time where thats written down since their instruction says 'cast iron' and then he started getting snarky.

I provided this information to blueprint and now have a warranty claim. we'll see. as of right now the pan is removed, completely cleaned and will be installing the pan tonight or tomorrow and flush the oil system with a drill and 5/16 socket for a good amount of time and put fresh oil in it again.

thanks for the feedback everybody. love this community

[Norm B]

I would recommend you pull and disassemble the oil pump. Check it carefully for damage and make sure it spins freely. Thoroughly clean the strainer and the oil gallery to the filter.
You said in your in one of your posts that you only have 100 miles go carting around. Special distributor gear break in lube is normally supplied with the distributor and should have provided some protection. I find it difficult to understand how it ate the gear that quickly! Very, very carefully inspect the cam gear. Make sure the distributor spins freely.

Good Luck

Norm

[Jeff Kleiner]

Instead of getting a questionable response from someone in a call center you can easily make the iron or steel determination for yourself by simply touching the gear to a grinding wheel. Dull red sparks=iron, bright yellow/white sparks=steel.

You’re welcome ;)

Jeff

[nick7405]

I know it’s iron, it’s whether it’s cast iron or melonized

[rich grsc]

I know it’s iron, it’s whether it’s cast iron or melonized
SO WHATS the cam? you all ready know it was the wrong gear you keep asking the WRONG question

[J R Jones]

Nick, You seemed to assume originally that the problem is material.
The gear is a high volume production part, failing one is possible. Holley is a great company, they are not selling all bad gears.
The potential problem could be material, a missed process, or a bad dimension.
I am concerned for damage to the cam.

This is melonizing:
I found the following information on Internet (from website of Burlington Engineering) Melonite and Melonite QPQ

"Melonite™ and Melonite QPQ™ are thermochemical processes intended for the case hardening of iron based metals. These processes are categorized as molten salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing. During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (ε - FexN).

A degraded form of this nitride layer (gamma prime: γ′ - Fe4N) is obtained during plasma or gas nitriding. The nitride layer is composed of two principle zones. Zone 1, called the compound or "white" layer, extends to a case depth of ~0.0004" to 0.0008". The compound layer is porous, which lends to the lubricity of the finish, and hard (~700HV to 1600HV). Zone 2, called the diffusion zone, extends to a case depth of ~.004" to 0.008".

In addition, small quantities of substrate carbon are pulled from deeper within the substrate toward the surface. The diffusion zone demonstrates a decreasing gradient concentration of carbon and particularly nitrogen as the gradient extends deeper into the surface of the substrate. This property yields a tough outer surface or shell, yet alloys the material to retain ductility, thereby lending to the overall strength of the material.

Resulting properties from these chemical and structural composition changes are increased surface hardness, lower coefficient of friction, enhanced surface lubricity, improved running wear performance, increased sliding wear resistance, and enhanced corrosion resistance. Naturally, the alloy of the substrate will influence which properties are principally affected and to what extent they are affected."

So it is surface hardening, I am guessing that step was missed. A lab could test a good part VS your failed part for a difference in hardness.
jim

[bobl]

Here's some info from Holley published about a new Hyperspark distributor they have released. It pretty well sums up the gear discussion. From experience I can tell you this "cast" gear is designed for a flat tappet cam. Most roller cams will require the steel gear.

"Until now all HyperSpark Distributors come with a cast distributor gear but Holley recently released the 565-322 HyperSpark for Small Block Ford Windsor engines that comes with a STEEL distributor gear. This distributor is a bit shorter so that it will fit underneath the throttle body on Holley's 8.2-inch Small Block Ford Hi-Ram EFI Manifold. Holley recognized that most users of that particular manifold would run a camshaft that requires a steel gear so that made it easy.

NOTE! Ensuring that you use a distributor gear that is compatible with your camshaft is of CRITICAL IMPORTANCE. If you are unsure whether a cast or steel distributor gear is right for your camshaft, contact the camshaft manufacturer or a trusted engine builder familiar with your engine and ask what you should use. Don't accept "a hardened gear" as an answer. Both the cast and steel gears available here are melonized (hardened.) Ask specifically for the material that is to be used with your camshaft."

Bob

[Nigel Allen]

Instead of getting a questionable response from someone in a call center you can easily make the iron or steel determination for yourself by simply touching the gear to a grinding wheel. Dull red sparks=iron, bright yellow/white sparks=steel.

You’re welcome ;)

Jeff

Genius!

[nick7405]

Your guys are slightly correct, with a hydraulic roller cam, the cam manufacturers recommend a Steel gear OR a melonized iron gear. Cast Iron and Melonized Cast Iron are different and all gears from MSD per the tech phone guy from holley who could not provide a reference verifying this says all gears from MSD that are iron are melonized.

I am assuming material cause i have had this conversation over two years ago when i purchased the distributor with holley, but since then i have moved twice, gotten older and more gray and can't remember the specifics of the conversation however whatever was part of that phone conversation two years ago had holley convince me i did not need to change a gear.

[nick7405]

My focus right now is trying to coordinate with blueprint and figure out the extent of the damage. I do not want to dig into the motor more when in fact blueprint who are the experts MAY (hoping) do it. It is within the 30-month warranty window (by one month) however they didn't provide the distributor so I can see their solution differing from what I would want.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I’d be really surprised if they warranty a problem related to a component that was not provided by or installed by them but please keep us updated.

Sorry you’re having to go through this :(

Jeff

[J R Jones]

My focus right now is trying to coordinate with blueprint and figure out the extent of the damage. I do not want to dig into the motor more when in fact blueprint who are the experts MAY (hoping) do it. It is within the 30-month warranty window (by one month) however they didn't provide the distributor so I can see their solution differing from what I would want.

There was a problem here, I predict the most relevant solution opinion is the distributor manufacturer, although BP and the cam manufacturer have relevant opinions.
Distractions and obfuscation are possible with an interacting problem like this. For instance, IMO, the lifters are not part of the problem. They are a drag/load through the cam to the timing chain. Rollers are less drag than flat tappets.
The distributor is a spinning rotor (light) and oil pump (heavy) drag/load on the cam gear through the cam to the timing chain. The two cam loads are exclusive.

The cam/distributor gear set is lubricated by the oil draining from the lifter galley. Has that been compromised?
Is the oil pump binding in any way?
jim

[nick7405]

There was a problem here, I predict the most relevant solution opinion is the distributor manufacturer, although BP and the cam manufacturer have relevant opinions.
Distractions and obfuscation are possible with an interacting problem like this. For instance, IMO, the lifters are not part of the problem. They are a drag/load through the cam to the timing chain. Rollers are less drag than flat tappets.
The distributor is a spinning rotor (light) and oil pump (heavy) drag/load on the cam gear through the cam to the timing chain. The two cam loads are exclusive.

The cam/distributor gear set is lubricated by the oil draining from the lifter galley. Has that been compromised?
Is the oil pump binding in any way?
jim

the oil pump is not biding from what i can tell. manually rotated it with an extension and seemed normal, then verified it with a drill and got expected oil pressure of the gauge.

As far as the lifter galley, I haven't had the valve covers off. Anything specific to look at other than metal shavings?

[J R Jones]

the oil pump is not biding from what i can tell. manually rotated it with an extension and seemed normal, then verified it with a drill and got expected oil pressure of the gauge.

As far as the lifter galley, I haven't had the valve covers off. Anything specific to look at other than metal shavings?

The valve/rocker arm covers do not expose the lifter galley. That is the plenum below the intake manifold, where the push rods seat in the lifters. The oil pumped to the lifters puddles in the lifter galley and drains forward to a hole open to the timing chain housing. The oil draining forward lubed the gears and timing chain.

I did find a tech article on cams and how cam material differs from flat to roller cams. There are compatibility issues:
The X’s in the chart indicate that the distributor gear is compatible with the camshaft core. We did not check bronze alloy gears for cast iron or ductile iron cams, although you can use them in these applications. We did not check them because either the stock iron or the melonized gears offer much better wear characteristics.

Distributor Gear Material

Cam Core Material Melonized Steel Iron Bronze Alloy Composite
Cast Iron X X X
Ductile Iron (SADI) X X
Billet Steel X X X

Full article: https://www.streetmusclemag.com/features/twist-taking-confusion-distributor-gear-compatibility/

jim

[J R Jones]

The valve/rocker arm covers do not expose the lifter galley. That is the plenum below the intake manifold, where the push rods seat in the lifters. The oil pumped to the lifters puddles in the lifter galley and drains forward to a hole open to the timing chain housing. The oil draining forward lubed the gears and timing chain.

I did find a tech article on cams and how cam material differs from flat to roller cams. There are compatibility issues:
The X’s in the chart indicate that the distributor gear is compatible with the camshaft core. We did not check bronze alloy gears for cast iron or ductile iron cams, although you can use them in these applications. We did not check them because either the stock iron or the melonized gears offer much better wear characteristics.

Distributor Gear Material

Cam Core Material Melonized Steel Iron Bronze Alloy Composite
Cast Iron X X X
Ductile Iron (SADI) X X
Billet Steel X X X

Full article: https://www.streetmusclemag.com/features/twist-taking-confusion-distributor-gear-compatibility/

jim

That chart does not paste properly see the article.
The drain hole in the lifter galley is cast, not machined. It would be very unlikely that it is not present. Best guess at this point is gear to gear compatibility or the melonizing process was missed.
jim

[nick7405]

I 100% agree with you that it is some quality controls issue with regards to the gear. However...

just got off the phone with blueprint, I sent them more pictures of the distributor and the cam and cam gear and definitely shows surface damage to the gear on the cam. I will be pulling the engine once I get back from travel and will ship it to blueprint. they will be warrantying it, the help and consistent communication from both the tech line and warranty people was incredibly refreshing and can't say enough good things about this company.