Cost comparison and rationale - 302 w/ Holley Sniper vs. Coyote

[VKannan]

Hi all,

First post here. I've got my deposit in on a MkIV roadster with a build date of 3/11/2023. Very excited to get started. To begin, I have very little prior knowledge of how to work on cars, but I'm willing to learn and don't mind this going slowly. Also, I live in Phoenix and am surrounded by lots of reputable shops so that should help as a support group.

I am trying to decide which engine to put in. Here are my thoughts on engines:
- Reliability: I want to be able to turn the key and go, every time. I would like to drive from Phoenix at 700ft elevation when it's 90 degrees out to Flagstaff at 7,000ft elevation when its 50 degrees out and not worry.
- Cost: I'd of course prefer to keep this at a minimum, but am willing to pay for something bulletproof
- Power: Honestly, I care very little about this. I will probably never track the car. I will go canyon carving by myself or with my young son and I don't intend on pushing it to its limits hardly ever. It is far more likely to be driven 1,000 miles on a road trip to California than it is to be driven 10 miles to the nearest track.
- Experience: This is probably lowest priority, and I don't want to prioritize it over any of the above items, but having a "vintage stye" experience in terms of sound and looks would be nice, but not at all a "must"

That being said, I'm considering 2 different engine options. The first is the Coyote engine/trans combo from Ford Racing. This seems like it should be incredibly reliable but also extremely expensive. By my searching, I see that the drivetrain + tax + shipping + the roughly $2,000 worth of accessories that I'd want from Factory Five (headers, power steering, coyote install, etc) should set me back $23,000 (the drivetrain shipped with tax is $21,000).

The other option I'm considering is Phoenix Engine building a turnkey 302 with 351hp and a Holley Sniper system, with accessory drives and all (I think those aren't included in the coyote price above) for just over $10,000, after tax, and they are local so no shipping. Then I could pair that with a Tremec T5 with clutch, flywheel, bell housing, and hydraulic release for $4,000 after tax (also local so no shipping). That would be a total of $14,000.

Am I missing anything in this numbers comparison (aside from possibly needing accessory drive for alternator and PS on the coyote)? Is that an accurate reflection of the difference?

What are your thoughts on what might suit me better given my goals of having a car with a vintage look and, in some respects, vintage feel while still being able to drive it anywhere I want, anytime I want, for as long as I want? I drive my cars a lot, usually on the order of 20-25k miles per year, and even my toy vehicles like a vespa get a lot of miles, so I expect this will get quite a bit of use.

Thanks,
Vijay

[Papa]

Welcome to the Furum. From your description of priorities, I get the feeling the Coyote would be a great choice for you. You can certainly get a complete Coyote for much less than the $20k plus you are seeing. I'd shop around and would bet you could shave $5-$10k off that. Call Forte's and discuss it with him. He's a supporting vendor. https://fortesparts.com/

[VKannan]

Are most people getting a brand new Coyote drivetrain or a used set from a salvage car? It seems that those can be had for much cheaper but I worry about getting a motor from a wrecked car for fear of damage that I wouldn't be able to appreciate from an eBay ad.

I will definitely call Forte's. Their website says $18,000 but with tax and shipping I imagine it will be right around $20k, similar to what I'm seeing everywhere else.

[boat737]

For me, building an old school car means an old school engine. And I wanted the '427' fender badge to mean what it says. So I went with a carbureted Dart block SBF 427. It's a mild build with a slightly softer cam, but still delivers 520 hp, and tons of torque at 530 ft/lbs. But it's very reliable, idles and starts perfectly. The only little hiccup on mine is during a hard or panic stop, it sometimes stalls, which, to my knowledge, is a float bowl issue. But it's so rare, and now predictable, I can mitigate that issue with a bit of preemptive throttle.

The one issue that this setup would have with you is the altitude changes. It would work for sure, but probably not ideal. Fuel injection would be be better I think for that much change in density altitude.

Good luck on the decisions and the build. It's a blast. Go Sun Devils.

[Mike.Bray]

Welcome to the forum and a lot of fun. And learning. And frustration. And ultimately satisfaction.

I'm old (I was a waiter at the Last Supper) so I'm very old school for the most part. Having said that I do embrace new technology like EFI over carburetors. The Coyote is an amazing piece of technology and no one is ever disappointed driving one. You would not make a wrong choice with it. It's also going to be more expensive, complex, and very wide which makes it less friendly when installing/working on it. If you order from Forte I'm told he ships a giant shoehorn with it for installation in a Cobra. My biggest problem with the Coyote, and this is just me, it there's no wow factor when you open the hood. It looks like a modern engine with crap everywhere because it is. I've seen some that are really dressed out nice, Forte can do it, but it's a lot of added expense.

A dressed up SBF screams Cobra when you open the hood and you can dress it out very nice for not a lot of money. You can easily do a very nice 302 fully dressed out for a lot less than the Coyote. just make sure your engine builder completely understands your intended use and avoids "trick stuff" like aluminum roller rockers that will end up failing on a street engine.

Either one can be extremely reliable, especially with EFI. Both have been made by Ford by the millions so they got something right.

Here's one last thought. I believe the Coyote is a 302 with different heads/induction/ECU etc. It has a lot more complexity than a conventional 302. As an engineer I can tell you the more parts you have the greater chance of failure. I'm not saying the Coyotes fail, I'm just saying from a purely engineering point of view the reliability number goes down as the number of parts goes up as you multiply the reliability rating of each part against all of the other parts.

And go with a TKX, not a T5.

FWIW

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Hi all,

I am trying to decide which engine to put in. Here are my thoughts on engines:
- Reliability: I want to be able to turn the key and go, every time. I would like to drive from Phoenix at 700ft elevation when it's 90 degrees out to Flagstaff at 7,000ft elevation when its 50 degrees out and not worry.

Thanks,
Vijay

Your very first want out of the box says go COYOTE. No reason a FORD Racing crate engine will not go 100,000 miles starting off with a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty. Trans I would get is the new TKX. Have 7 years on my TKO with no issues.

I know prices have gone up but $20,000+seems very steep. My entire turnkey power package vibration damper to output shaft was about $12,000 from Summit.

[John289]

Just to give you an idea, my new Boss 302 with Holley Sniper, T-5, and complete Moser 8.8 with brakes came to about $21k including MA tax from Forte's. That does include a Champ pan and some other options but should be close unless the price has increased in the last couple months. Mike recommended the T-5 based on my intended usage. Definitely give Mike a call to discuss your options. Dyno results were 355hp and 346 ft-lb.

[VKannan]

Looking around online it seems like the LS is also a viable option and significantly cheaper. I could have an LS3 with more power than a coyote for several thousand less than a coyote, though I'm not sure if the new mounts + headers make the install as easy as a coyote would be, and also not sure if the transmission the package comes with will fit. This is what I'm looking at:

https://paceperformance.com/LS3-495HP-Pace-Performance-Crate-Engine-with-Tremec-TKO-600-5-Speed-Transmission-Package-GMP-TK6LS480.html

Curious to hear others' thoughts on this.

[Papa]

Looking around online it seems like the LS is also a viable option and significantly cheaper. I could have an LS3 with more power than a coyote for several thousand less than a coyote, though I'm not sure if the new mounts + headers make the install as easy as a coyote would be, and also not sure if the transmission the package comes with will fit. This is what I'm looking at:

https://paceperformance.com/LS3-495HP-Pace-Performance-Crate-Engine-with-Tremec-TKO-600-5-Speed-Transmission-Package-GMP-TK6LS480.html

Curious to hear others' thoughts on this.

Factory Five offers kit configurations for the LS, including motor mounts and headers with the ball flange. I don't see any drive shaft options for the LS, so that may be something you'd need to source locally. I'd expect any drive line shop could make what you need pretty easily. There are a few other LS Roadster builds in progress, so you may want to reach out to a couple of builders doing them to see if they can fill in the blanks.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42239-Just-another-LS-in-a-Roadster-First-start-success!

[Blitzboy54]

I had a similar internal discussion as you are having out loud right now. Cost was a big factor for me. I flirted with the Coyote but ultimately it was never a realistic option. I wanted IRS for example but just couldn't fit it into the "budget". I use parentheses because I laughably passed my budget long before first start. But I digress. If money wasn't an issue I would have 100% put a Coyote in it.

I went the donor drive train route and was able to keep cost down significantly. I was able to get a rebuilt T5, 8.8 and a running 302 that I had rebuilt to a crate 306 with a sniper. All in all I spent about 12k. That was early Covid so i would assume that would be closer to 14k -15k now. My engine is mild at 375 at the crank. This works out to be a very easy driver that has plenty if I want it in the higher RPMs. The sniper makes it turn key and I have no regrets there. The engine isn't overwhelming in power or heat. I can also super charge it down the road if I wanted to pump another 80 HP into it. It's a simple and reliable setup.

Having said all that, if I was to start over tomorrow I would put an LS in it.

[VKannan]

The other thing I should have included is "ease of install". I am intimidated by this build, but I'll do a build school beforehand and I think in the end it will have been fun. If a 302 with Holley that is turnkey with a transmission already mounted to it is much easier to install than a coyote, then that will also factor into my decision making. Is it a noticeably different level of difficulty?

This forum has already been so helpful on day 1 !

[edwardb]

Where to start… I’ve had experience with all of the above. Small block builds (mild 306 and strong custom 347), Gen 2 and Gen 3 Coyotes, and an LS build. My current regular driver is a Gen 3 Coupe with a Gen 3 Coyote. I am a self-admitted huge Coyote fan based on this experience. So consider what I say based on that. My experience is if you are fair (e.g. apples to apples), the Coyote will compare favorably in value. But for sure you can do a drivetrain cheaper if absolute cost is the objective. What you've described and some of the differences:


350 HP small block to a nearly 500 HP Gen 3 Coyote
T-5 trans vs. the T-56 in the package you reference (only package I see offered)
Built-in and fully engineered EFI vs. aftermarket EFI. Either should handle your altitude differences. For sure the Coyote.
Coyote has a factory warranty and is easily a 100K+ mile engine. Very unlikely you’ll ever wear one out or have an issue in these builds.

Build up your traditional engine option to have similar power as the Coyote and the same transmission (big difference between the T-5 and the T-56) you’ll find, at least in my experience, the costs are nearly the same. As for driving, I love how the Coyote drives. The fun factor at least for me is higher. It’s easy to launch and happy to pot around town short shifting at 2000 – 3000 RPM and doesn’t complain a bit. The torque curve is very flat and comes in at a decent level at low RPM’s. Or you can bump up the revs and shift points and it gets very excited. As mild or wild as you want. Both my small block builds were not nearly as happy at low RPM’s. Granted, that’s a function of the build (e.g. how they’re cammed, etc.) but I’ve heard this from others as well. Something to be said for the variable cam setup in the Coyote. Ultimately, it does come down to absolute budget because yes, there are cheaper options. Also comes down to your expectation regarding traditional vs. modern and appearance. A Coyote can be dressed up to look OK (lots of pictures in my build threads below) but still doesn’t look like a cleaned up small block. For the record I show my Coupe quite a bit. Everyone loves the Coyote in it. Kind of the trend with restomods right now anyway. Modern engines in old school rides. No one has ever complained about not seeing a more traditional engine. But of course it's what you want and think. Not others.

Other random thoughts:


That package (assuming you’re looking at M-9000-PMCM3) is interesting. Includes a number of things you would normally be buying separately, e.g. the flywheel, clutch, steel Quicktime bellhousing, starter, alternator, control pack, T-56 trans, etc. and if you shop around looks like there are a few available for a little less than you stated. You would need to change to a lower profile oil pan (e.g. Moroso) but other than that, looks pretty complete. But I’d definitely price things separately before going that way.
Note that a T-56 will only fit in a Roadster with the IRS suspension option. And still requires a little bit of modification to fit. I have the T-56 in my Coupe and like it a lot. But more room and an easy fit. A TKX is the more common choice for the Roadster and fits comfortably.
Yes, the Coyote is a tight fit in the Roadster. But it fits and the path is well proven. Once installed, there’s very little maintenance required so IMO that’s not really a factor. Change the oil regularly and that’s about it. The plugs (100K maintenance cycle…) are accessed through the top of the heads. Easy.
My experience is there’s very little difference between installing the Coyote with the Ford control pack and an aftermarket EFI setup. They both require similar fuel setups, electrical connections, O2 sensors, etc. I wouldn’t recommend making a decision on that factor alone.
If you do buy the parts separately (either engine choice) I would not be intimidated by steps like installing a flywheel, clutch, transmission, etc. It's all well established and what I always say to people is if you can build a car you can assemble the basic parts of the drivetrain. Frankly, there are other build steps that IMO are more difficult.
While not typically a big consideration for these builds, the Coyote is surprisingly efficient. Probably 25 -50% better than the traditional small block. At the price of gas these days it's at least worth mentioning.
As far as tipping either engine choice into the chassis, really not a big difference. I've done all of them multiple times. Yes, there's more to watch for with the wider Coyote. But the basic steps are the same in either case. I wouldn't recommend making a choice on the difference.
Yes, lots of guys do builds with salvage engines. There’s a few thousand at least to be saved depending on what you find. But it’s almost for sure more work and some risk. Definitely something to consider but hasn’t been my personal choice.
Final comment on the Coyote. The Gen 3 requires a custom tune for these builds. Several reasons, but primarily because the stock cold air intake doesn’t fit (not even close) so the engine has to be tuned for the new cold air intake. You may find a local tuner. Or there are virtual options like Lund Performance which I’ve used. Consider that as you’re building your budget.
At the risk of tweaking my LS builder friends – I’m just about finished doing a hot rod truck build with an LS3 crate motor from Chevrolet Performance. I like that it’s more compact and so far starts and runs just fine. I did if for the experience plus admittedly it’s a better fit into the limited space of the hot rod and truck chassis. Plus there's a huge aftermarket and support for alternative parts, mods, etc. But unlike what I was told (and expected) when all was said and done it wasn’t cheaper than a Coyote. I found them to be nearly the same. Again we’re talking new. There are many more LS’s out there in salvage, so if you go that way, likely cheaper. But that’s a different scenario. And then there’s the whole discussion of resale value of an LS powered Roadster vs. something Ford. It’s real but let’s not get off topic. That’s been widely discussed in other threads.

That’s enough (or too much). Hope this helps maybe a little. Good luck with your choice.

[RJD]

If a 302 with Holley that is turnkey with a transmission already mounted to it is much easier to install than a coyote, then that will also factor into my decision making. Is it a noticeably different level of difficulty?

This forum has already been so helpful on day 1 !

It took me an hour and a half by myself to install a SBF 306 with TKO 600 attached. I never installed an engine before so was quite intimidated initially. Afterwards, it was kind of a happy disappointment - I had blocked out the whole day and expected lots of issues, but there were none. Reviewing engine installs on this forum was the key in developing a plan of attack that allowed it to go smoothly.

[MB750]

Aside from your engine question, are they down to 4 months lead times now? Or did you place your order a few months ago?

Wow, I placed my order in February and I just had my kit review chat with a ship date of 11/26.

[Namrups]

I'm putting a Boss 427 crate in my coupe. 501 hp and 580 torque. PS, air, Sniper EFI, TKX transmission, hydraulic clutch, broken in and dyno 'ed all from Mike Forte for around $18,000. I picked it up myself so no shipping costs. Old school looks with plenty of room.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=173206&d=1664630502

[rich grsc]

OP ask's about 302 or Coyote, and already "well I have 500+hp 427". How does that have ANYTHING to do with what a new member is asking about?
Turnkey no-issue engine, easy answer, Coyote. You show about a $9000 difference between a 302 and the Coyote, I really don't think the difference is that much. The Coyote is just a little harder to install, but thats just because the wiring takes some extra time and planning. Nothing that should influence you decision.

[Fman]

If I wanted a bulletproof engine and was planning on driving 20-25k miles a year the Coyote would be it, you cant beat the reliability of them. You will change the oil and drive it. I went 427 stroker w/EFI because I wanted the look and feel of an old school '65 Cobra. After 4400 miles of driving now I can tell you after one hour in my car I get my fix and put it away. I almost feel like a drug addict, take my one hour hit and look forward to my next drive again :cool: I commend guys driving these for 7-8 hour road trips, not really for me. They are loud, wind noise, exposure to elements, very little storage, unsafe, etc... personally not a car I would build to take on long road trips. Earplugs are almost a must have with these cars to save your hearing. I would recommend you try and ride in one with a pushrod engine and a coyote engine so you get a feel to what you are singing up for. Go visit a cars and coffee in your area most anyone who owns one of these will give you a ride in one. If you are ever in the Sacramento area look me up I will be more than happy to take you out for a drive.

[DW66]

I understand if you don't want to go the used route, but this is another option. I used a Gen 1 Coyote from a rolled over Mustang with 35,000 miles. I heard the engine run before it was pulled. I am using a Tremec 3650 from a 2004 Mustang with 16,000 miles. I had to buy the Coyote control pack and an oil pan and oil pick up. I was probably all in for about 10K. I bet you could find a Gen 2 with low miles. Good luck with your choice. I'm kind of the opposite from FMan. With a Coyote, soft top, heat and A/C my car is fairly comfortable to drive. I guess you have to ask yourself what do you want to do with the car.

[Namrups]

OP ask's about 302 or Coyote, and already "well I have 500+hp 427". How does that have ANYTHING to do with what a new member is asking about?
Turnkey no-issue engine, easy answer, Coyote. You show about a $9000 difference between a 302 and the Coyote, I really don't think the difference is that much. The Coyote is just a little harder to install, but thats just because the wiring takes some extra time and planning. Nothing that should influence you decision.

He asked questions about looks and costs. I showed what a SBF looks like and gave him a cost of a 427 pkg to compare with what he is looking at.

[Otee453]

Coyote for relatively “tinker free”.
302 SBF for old school look and possible to save a few $$

Holley sniper can be finicky. My sniper has been great and runs awesome, but I have spent the summer dialing it in and troubleshooting a couple weird anomalies.
Some people can figure the sniper out, while others can’t. For this reason alone, I vote with the others recommending the coyote.

[edwardb]

For grins, my Gen 3 Coyote powered Coupe giving charity rides at this year's London Cobra Show. From two phone videos, so not the greatest quality. Sorry. But gives an idea. Turn up the volume! I was purposely doing a soft launch to not spin the tires (I'm a wimp, Erik's smokey burnouts are WAY better) but still managed to peak at about 85 mph in the roughly 1/8 mile. With the A/C on (wimp again). Yes, I like my Coyote.


https://youtu.be/LQgJBgkF8OA

[OB6]

OP - I appreciate the mental struggle here... I've been going through it too. All of my research always brings me back to the Coyote, and in fact I may end up stuffing one into a 289 USRRC kit (yes, my indecision also extends to kit choice), sigh.

[drewr]

The 302 is a reliable platform. Ford used them in trucks and SUVs until the early 2000s. Literally every Mustang GT from 1968 until 1995 had a 302 platform engine. A well sorted 302 is very reliable, especially if fuel injected. Carburetors are not that complicated, and you can figure them out if you are so inclined. And almost ANY mechanic can work on a 302. You can learn, too, with Youtube and books. As you've probably figured out, this is a very Coyote-centric board. It's a great engine and will do everything you want. There's nothing "vintage" about it, though. You'll find a proponent for almost any mill on this board. It comes down to what you want. The whole process should make you happy. The deciding, the building, the driving. You dreamed about a Cobra for a reason. Go with what was in your dreams. You should make a budget and use that as a guide, but you will find that many things will happen along the way. It all evens out.

Good luck and welcome!

[John289]

If you haven’t seen this already it’s a good video from FFR about engine options.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjwKZEgzj8

[Blitzboy54]

If you haven’t seen this already it’s a good video from FFR about engine options.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fpjwKZEgzj8

This was/is my favorite FFR video of all time. I still watch it from time to time

[Mike.Bray]

Holley sniper can be finicky. My sniper has been great and runs awesome, but I have spent the summer dialing it in and troubleshooting a couple weird anomalies.
Some people can figure the sniper out, while others can’t. For this reason alone, I vote with the others recommending the coyote.

I've messed with a few aftermarket EFI systems starting in the early 90's and the DFI system which became the Accel system. TBH it was a little crude, the tuning software was DOS based, and it lacked any sort of self-tuning ability other than a narrow band O2 sensor that only went to 2K RPM. But in the end you could get them to run and run well with work.

Today's systems are light years ahead with self-tuning features, built in databases, timing control, good MAP sensors, and wide band O2 sensors. I haven't had my hands on a Holley system, only looked at them and read a lot. From experience I don't think Holley is anywhere near the company they used to be and the coupe of times I've tried to talk to technical help was impossible.

With my current build using a Borla stack EFI I went with the FAST XFI Sportsman and so far I'm very impressed. Enter in the required information on your engine and it gets you extremely close. I have a friend who worked for FAST that helped me do the final tuning and honestly the amount he did over where I started was minimal. And this was with a stack system which are finicky to begin with.

FAST build a very nice throttle body system that I would chose any day over a Sniper if you go that route. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fst-303001

[zee]

I went with the 347 because for me, "experience" ranked higher and the experience I was looking for was a vintage experience, not a modern one.

But seeing how it ranks low for you, Coyote might be a good option for you.

[Papa]

I'm not an EFI expert by any means, so take this with a grain of salt. I originally ordered my BPE 347 with EFI. At that time BPE was providing the FAST XFI Street EFI systems with their engines but didn't provide any means to examine the tuning that they provided with the setup. BPE described the extensive work that had gone into the tunes that were installed and how they'd collaborated with FAST. My car started and idled perfectly the very first turn of the key, so I was thrilled. Fast forward a few months and things were quickly headed downhill. My car was fouling plugs that were dripping fuel when I pulled them. There was fuel in my oil and BPE immediately sent me a brand-new Holley Sniper to replace the FAST XFI Street. In my uneducated mind, the two systems were very similar in what they did and the advantage of moving to the Sniper was that I could get more insight into the system and potentially tune it. Over time I learned that if you just do short startups and don't get the engine to full operating temps before shutting down, these carb-style EFIs will want to run very rich and will eventually head down the same dead-end road of fouling plugs. As I was able to start to drive the car, a lot of those issues started to clear up and the Sniper was a very drivable setup and I suspect the FAST system would have been as well. I started having drivability issues with the Sniper over time due to issues not directly Sniper-related that caused me to go another direction. My point is that there are very few after-market EFI setups that are 100% trouble-free and all will benefit from expert tuning to get the most out of them. The Coyote EFI is very advanced compared with any of the EFI systems I've had on my car so far. By the way, I'm currently running an Inglese 8-stack setup based on Borla throttle bodies that is very similar to what Mike is running. I'm using a Holley Terminator X ECU that I had professionally tuned and will say that my car is running better than it ever has. Time will tell, but I'm very happy with my engine right now. Will it compare to the reliability of a Coyote over time? I certainly hope so.

[bobl]

I've been professionally tuning after market efi systems for 25 years. I can tell you that none of them are truly plug and play as the advertising would have you believe. Especially altitude compensation. They will adjust air fuel ratio (within limits), but there are numerous other tables that require human interactions to get optimized. I gained much respect for the OEM tuning when I drove my Roadster to the top of Pikes Peak and fine tuned it. 99% of the time you will find OEM EFI will perform better across the board. So, I would point the op towards the Coyote for the most trouble free and versatile power package.

Bob

[narly1]

It's a long read but here's a link to my thread about rebuilding a 1988 vintage 5.0/302 with an Edelbrock ProFlo 4 EFI system.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34272-Is-a-basically-stock-302-too-little-motor-Subsequent-build-ITS-ALIVE-SEE-VIDEO

It was my first car engine rebuild ever and you know what it runs!

Earl

[CraigS]

My one comment is that there is no reason a 302 or 351 would not be reliable. The 302 had a rep for lasting forever. Bobl says OEM efi is better and I tend to agree w/ him but I would go w/ an aftermarket efi in a heartbeat. Like all the other decisions you need to make, do a lot of research, and make your choice. BTW installing the engine trans is no big deal. I do mine w/ a come-a-long hanging from the ceiling. I have helped do several w/ an engine hoist and really don't like it. Save the $ on a hoist and buy a good engine levelor instead. Get one of the approximately $100 one being sure it has actual bearings in it.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/engine-tilters?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&autoview=SKU&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=engine+leveler&utm_content=Engine+Load+Levelers&utm_campaign=General+Terms+D+-+L

[MB750]

I just don't understand why so many people have the impression that when something is old compared to new technologies that it's automatically unreliable.

Give me a carb any day, I can tune it without a $500 computer and necessary software. And believe it or not, carbs (to an extent) compensate for altitude as well. Yes, FI does better, but as the atmosphere thins out the higher you go, less fuel is drawn thru the carb with each intake pulse due to the lower vacuum across the venturi. The oxygen in the air stays at 21%. Where drastic changes take place is in the idle. You will have a lower idle at altitude, but you're not gonna start fouling plugs as soon as you go up a few thousand feet.

[rich grsc]

I just don't understand why so many people have the impression that when something is old compared to new technologies that it's automatically unreliable.

Give me a carb any day, I can tune it without a $500 computer and necessary software. And believe it or not, carbs (to an extent) compensate for altitude as well. Yes, FI does better, but as the atmosphere thins out the higher you go, less fuel is drawn thru the carb with each intake pulse due to the lower vacuum across the venturi. The oxygen in the air stays at 21%. Where drastic changes take place is in the idle. You will have a lower idle at altitude, but you're not gonna start fouling plugs as soon as you go up a few thousand feet.

Some what, but I don't think you've driven a carb to the top of Pikes Peak.

[OB6]

I think what we lose sight of in many of these conversations are the driving dynamics of each engine and how they meet the expectations/desires of the owner. A mild 302 will be different than a stroked 427, and both different than a Coyote. I would agree that reliability can be built into reach engine choice.

[Alex_V]

A used Coyote is actually by far the cheapest option there is IMHO. Here is how to get one for about $2k.

Buy a salvaged Mustang GT from Copart, preferably rear ended with low mileage - $8-10k. Sell off all the good bits: leather seats, navigation, lights, doors, whatever you can part out.

End up with a low mileage motor / transmission / rear diff / clutch for under $2k. I have a spreadsheet of how exactly it all worked out. But overall you get an idea.

[Norm B]

Vijay, I have read your original post a couple of times. Something else to consider when comparing the two engine choices you listed is drivability. The Coyote, with all its modern controls, will maintain excellent low speed/power running characteristics while still having very good top end performance. A 302 cammed out to make 351 hp is likely to be a little snotty at low rpms. If the Sniper is set up with the correct distributor and controls the timing it will do its best to tame this but, don't expect to drive around around smoothly at idle. Also, expect to take the car to a tuner or learn how to tune the Sniper yourself. The basic Sniper tune needs tweaking to get the best performance.
I agree with a lot of previous posts. It is pretty easy to beat crate engine prices with a little searching and patience.

Norm

[Mike.Bray]

buy a good engine levelor instead. Get one of the approximately $100 one being sure it has actual bearings in it.

I bought a leveler from Northern Tool and it was extremely difficult to use with the high angle required to get the engine/transmission in. When I pulled the engine back out I used this one.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wmr-w41036

It was unbelievably better in every way. Very easy to turn to adjust the angle and the handle can be removed so you can use a socket. I used a speed handle but you could also use a ratchet or an electric drill. With this one I was able to pull and reinstall the engine easily by myself.

[MB750]

Some what, but I don't think you've driven a carb to the top of Pikes Peak.

Sure I have, a 1999 Honda Magna, in 2011. For fun I pulled a plug at the top. Light tan. I know plug chops are not as accurate as a wideband reading but at least it wasn't pig rich.

If I ever head that way (in my carb'd Roadster) I'll bring my wideband next time and get a video of the whole ride up.

[J R Jones]

Vijay, I have read your original post a couple of times. Something else to consider when comparing the two engine choices you listed is drivability. The Coyote, with all its modern controls, will maintain excellent low speed/power running characteristics while still having very good top end performance. A 302 cammed out to make 351 hp is likely to be a little snotty at low rpms. If the Sniper is set up with the correct distributor and controls the timing it will do its best to tame this but, don't expect to drive around around smoothly at idle. Also, expect to take the car to a tuner or learn how to tune the Sniper yourself. The basic Sniper tune needs tweaking to get the best performance.
I agree with a lot of previous posts. It is pretty easy to beat crate engine prices with a little searching and patience.

Norm

Big cams, (lift & duration) compromise the intake vacuum. Coupled with too much carburetor, there is a weak signal for the idle and low speed circuits. Staggered progressive carb venturis make the best of it. A good engine builder should advise on the compromises. My sense is VJ is going with EFI that can also optimize low speed running.

[Mike.Bray]

I just don't understand why so many people have the impression that when something is old compared to new technologies that it's automatically unreliable.

Give me a carb any day, I can tune it without a $500 computer and necessary software. And believe it or not, carbs (to an extent) compensate for altitude as well. Yes, FI does better, but as the atmosphere thins out the higher you go, less fuel is drawn thru the carb with each intake pulse due to the lower vacuum across the venturi. The oxygen in the air stays at 21%. Where drastic changes take place is in the idle. You will have a lower idle at altitude, but you're not gonna start fouling plugs as soon as you go up a few thousand feet.

Ahhh, I remember carburetors. That great technology from the 1800s. I remember my car not starting on cold mornings or if it did running like crap until it warmed up. I remember stopping at a light and the engine dying because of a stuck float. I remember stumbles and bogs. I remember having to rebuild them and always having a 1 gallon can of carburetor cleaner in my garage. I remember, and worked on, Q-jets, Holley, Carter, Webers, and some I don't even remember. No matter which carburetor you have you learn how to work on it. And amazingly no matter the brand they all had the same model designation, POS lol

The neat thing about custom cars is they are custom and you can build them the way YOU want them. For me, and I think most, EFI is the way to go. Electronics win out over mechanical in this case. Both require tuning and even though I've tuned all sorts of carburetors I find EFI to be 1000 times easier. The numbers and graphs all make sense to me and I can easily see what the engine is doing on my screen instead of trying to decipher what the engine is doing by other means. And EFI setups can even be remote tuned. It is sad in a way that carburetor tuning is fast becoming a lost art although I don't miss it one little bit.

[rich grsc]

Sure I have, a 1999 Honda Magna, in 2011. For fun I pulled a plug at the top. Light tan. I know plug chops are not as accurate as a wideband reading but at least it wasn't pig rich.

If I ever head that way (in my carb'd Roadster) I'll bring my wideband next time and get a video of the whole ride up.
Cool that you've made the run up to the top. I know my buddies carbed roadster had some issues, but my EFI was just fine.

[MB750]

Ahhh, I remember carburetors. That great technology from the 1800s. I remember my car not starting on cold mornings or if it did running like crap until it warmed up. I remember stopping at a light and the engine dying because of a stuck float. I remember stumbles and bogs. I remember having to rebuild them and always having a 1 gallon can of carburetor cleaner in my garage. I remember, and worked on, Q-jets, Holley, Carter, Webers, and some I don't even remember. No matter which carburetor you have you learn how to work on it. And amazingly no matter the brand they all had the same model designation, POS lol

The neat thing about custom cars is they are custom and you can build them the way YOU want them. For me, and I think most, EFI is the way to go. Electronics win out over mechanical in this case. Both require tuning and even though I've tuned all sorts of carburetors I find EFI to be 1000 times easier. The numbers and graphs all make sense to me and I can easily see what the engine is doing on my screen instead of trying to decipher what the engine is doing by other means. And EFI setups can even be remote tuned. It is sad in a way that carburetor tuning is fast becoming a lost art although I don't miss it one little bit.

Well, I appreciate your experience. Personally, I've never owned a car with a carb so I want to head down this road. I've tuned dozens of motorcycles with carbs (and FI, so I'm familiar with the tuning software) but I want to go carb because I believe I can make it work as well as many of the carbed motorcycles I've owned. They all started great, even when really cold, great mileage, no stalls or hesitations, and never leaked. Granted, new seals and gaskets, and I tuned them with a wideband, but to me that's necessary when tuning any IC engine. If it all blows up in my face, everyone here can give me an "I told you so" while I toss my Edelbrock AVS2 in the dumpster and buy a Microsquirt.

[VKannan]

A used Coyote is actually by far the cheapest option there is IMHO. Here is how to get one for about $2k.

Buy a salvaged Mustang GT from Copart, preferably rear ended with low mileage - $8-10k. Sell off all the good bits: leather seats, navigation, lights, doors, whatever you can part out.

End up with a low mileage motor / transmission / rear diff / clutch for under $2k. I have a spreadsheet of how exactly it all worked out. But overall you get an idea.

When you did this did you use the 6 speed manual transmission in your build? I seem to see more people using a 5 speed tremec so I'm wondering if it's compatible. And then you have to buy the control pack wiring separately right?

I was also unaware that you could use the rear end from a modern mustang, that's great.

[edwardb]

When you did this did you use the 6 speed manual transmission in your build? I seem to see more people using a 5 speed tremec so I'm wondering if it's compatible.

The Getrag MT82 has been used by some builders. Not real common as you've noticed. Issues to address: Shifter location is too far back. Driveshaft needs to be adapted. Ratios are a little questionable. It's possible to work through these, but just be aware. Also early MT82's had some quality issues that Ford addressed in later versions.


And then you have to buy the control pack wiring separately right?

Yes. That's the simplest route, although some are able to get the stock PCM and harness to work. But not an easy task. Just be aware that there are currently three different versions of the Coyote (2011-2014, 2015-2017, 2018-current). Each has a different control pack. My understanding is the earliest version isn't easily obtained. Likely not applicable here, but Ford has recently announced a fourth version of the Coyote. At least a year or two away for our builds.


I was also unaware that you could use the rear end from a modern mustang, that's great.

The center section and knuckles/hubs from the 2015+ Mustangs are used for the IRS option. There are several different versions, ratios, and limited slip methods. The most common is the 3.55 ratio iron case version that Factory Five offers with Trac-Lok.

Every one of the above topics requires more homework beyond these brief responses.

[Scott L]

Wow - I must be a dinosaur. I love my 302 with its overdone cam and quick fuel 650...

[Gizmosrcool]

I am in the dinosaur group. A hybrid dino. I love the look of a SBF combined with modern electronics.

[VKannan]

If I were to be convinced that the hybrid dino of a 302 + Holley Sniper could consistently fire up when I turn the key and easily take me on a 1,000mi road trip when the mood strikes regardless of destination altitude or temperature then I would go this route in a heartbeat, which I think after several days of thinking is the real question I was trying to ask with this post.

I don't want a coyote for the power, I want it because I believe it will take me anywhere, anytime. If the wisdom of the crowd says that a very modestly built 302 with a Holley Sniper will do that too then I'd prefer that route. Am I being unfair in my lack of confidence in the 302+sniper? I've never spoken to anyone that has had one and actually put serious miles on it (10k+ per year).

[GoDadGo]

What a lot of folks don't realize is that the SNIPER prefers an Single Plane intake over a Duel Plane...Also, I think the Coyote or the LS would be better options for reliability over the 302 with the SNIPER set up...Finally, as the Dark Side Guy on the forum I'd have gone with the LS if I wasn't so attached to the tried and true SBC.

Good Luck, God's Speed, Happy Wrenching & Please Watch Your Pinkies!

[rich grsc]

If I were to be convinced that the hybrid dino of a 302 + Holley Sniper could consistently fire up when I turn the key and easily take me on a 1,000mi road trip when the mood strikes regardless of destination altitude or temperature then I would go this route in a heartbeat, which I think after several days of thinking is the real question I was trying to ask with this post.

I don't want a coyote for the power, I want it because I believe it will take me anywhere, anytime. If the wisdom of the crowd says that a very modestly built 302 with a Holley Sniper will do that too then I'd prefer that route. Am I being unfair in my lack of confidence in the 302+sniper? I've never spoken to anyone that has had one and actually put serious miles on it (10k+ per year).
There is nothing to fear with a properly built 302 and a quality EFI. It will run for many years with just your basic maintenance. It may not go over a 100,000+ miles, but it could. Go that way if you like the look better, and don't need the extra HP of the Coyote

[Jeff Kleiner]

If I were to be convinced that the hybrid dino of a 302 + Holley Sniper could consistently fire up when I turn the key and easily take me on a 1,000mi road trip when the mood strikes regardless of destination altitude or temperature then I would go this route in a heartbeat, which I think after several days of thinking is the real question I was trying to ask with this post.

I don't want a coyote for the power, I want it because I believe it will take me anywhere, anytime. If the wisdom of the crowd says that a very modestly built 302 with a Holley Sniper will do that too then I'd prefer that route. Am I being unfair in my lack of confidence in the 302+sniper? I've never spoken to anyone that has had one and actually put serious miles on it (10k+ per year).



Or.... If you don't want to go full dinosaur with a carb you could revert to the Factory Five roadster "Original Recipe" and put together a 302 Windsor using the OEM Ford EEC-IV EFI like millions of Mustangs ran for 100,000 miles with no more than regular maintenance spark plug changes. In 15 years and 30K+ miles the only thing I've touched on mine has been the oil drain plug and filter. My buddy Sten is knocking on the door to 100,000 with his. Same with Ron E's personal car and hundreds of other roadsters.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-8oN1zlmfOzJcTbIlWiPRDjmumY5_19NMaTTnFb4znNBBQyADNj Oaslffxk4sx8Cg?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1345057719

:D

Jeff

[sread]

Everybody always mentions the sniper when considering aftermarket efi. IMO, the sniper has (as well as the FiTech and some others) have one major drawback in their design - they incorporate the ecu into the throttle body for packaging and simplicity. This causes 2 issues - one is exposure to under hood heat, and the other is being susceptible to rfi. The sniper is notorious for this. All of these "all in one" aftermarket efi systems are built to a price point (roughly $1000). They are the bottom of the barrel, entry level systems built to compete on price. They can certainly be made to work well and are mostly reliable but if you want to approach the level of OEM efi you need to move up the price scale and consider a more sophisticated system.

[weendoggy]

Yes. That's the simplest route, although some are able to get the stock PCM and harness to work. But not an easy task. Just be aware that there are currently three different versions of the Coyote (2011-2014, 2015-2017, 2018-current). Each has a different control pack. My understanding is the earliest version isn't easily obtained. Likely not applicable here, but Ford has recently announced a fourth version of the Coyote. At least a year or two away for our builds.

IF, you purchase a donor "salvage" title or auction vehicle, the entire package is easily used, including the PCM. You will need to send the PCM somewhere to have PATS deleted, but other than that, just dedicated wiring time. You can either opt to purchase a body harness (i.e. PBH) or diet the one from the vehicle. My advice is get the body harness. The rest is not hard and you'll have everything you need to do the swap. As mentioned, Gen1's are hard to come by so you'll be looking at Gen2 or Gen3 and each have their specific issues. I would also not use the MT82.

[Norm B]

My 331 with the Sniper and Hyperspark distributor starts every time. We have driven 6 hours with 4000 feet of elevation change up and down and it ran flawlessly the whole time. Had the standard issues with RF interference initially but, Holley tech support was very helpful and that is all sorted out now. A 302 with the right camshaft is going to be easy to drive and very reliable.

Norm

[VKannan]

Is it possible to get a new long block and add that system on? Can that system be bought new or do I need buy it used? The motor in your picture looks new but perhaps it's remanufactured? I would be VERY interested in this option if I could have a brand new 302 with a proven system, seems like I'd have all the confidence I need for road trips without paying for extra power. Any guidance you can give me on how to get that setup would be appreciated!


Or.... If you don't want to go full dinosaur with a carb you could revert to the Factory Five roadster "Original Recipe" and put together a 302 Windsor using the OEM Ford EEC-IV EFI like millions of Mustangs ran for 100,000 miles with no more than regular maintenance spark plug changes. In 15 years and 30K+ miles the only thing I've touched on mine has been the oil drain plug and filter. My buddy Sten is knocking on the door to 100,000 with his. Same with Ron E's personal car and hundreds of other roadsters.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-8oN1zlmfOzJcTbIlWiPRDjmumY5_19NMaTTnFb4znNBBQyADNj Oaslffxk4sx8Cg?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1345057719

:D

Jeff

[VKannan]

Could you give me some recommendations for more sophisticated systems to look at?


Everybody always mentions the sniper when considering aftermarket efi. IMO, the sniper has (as well as the FiTech and some others) have one major drawback in their design - they incorporate the ecu into the throttle body for packaging and simplicity. This causes 2 issues - one is exposure to under hood heat, and the other is being susceptible to rfi. The sniper is notorious for this. All of these "all in one" aftermarket efi systems are built to a price point (roughly $1000). They are the bottom of the barrel, entry level systems built to compete on price. They can certainly be made to work well and are mostly reliable but if you want to approach the level of OEM efi you need to move up the price scale and consider a more sophisticated system.

[drewr]

Or.... If you don't want to go full dinosaur with a carb you could revert to the Factory Five roadster "Original Recipe" and put together a 302 Windsor using the OEM Ford EEC-IV EFI like millions of Mustangs ran for 100,000 miles with no more than regular maintenance spark plug changes. In 15 years and 30K+ miles the only thing I've touched on mine has been the oil drain plug and filter. My buddy Sten is knocking on the door to 100,000 with his. Same with Ron E's personal car and hundreds of other roadsters.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-8oN1zlmfOzJcTbIlWiPRDjmumY5_19NMaTTnFb4znNBBQyADNj Oaslffxk4sx8Cg?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1345057719

:D

Jeff

This is just a Mustang 302 from any Mustang built between 1982 and 1993 or so. It has aftermarket valve covers and maybe an aftermarket EFI plenum, but the system is the stock Mustang EFI. You can get these off of Ebay, from a junkyard, salvage mustang, have someone build you one, etc. There are sites, and sites and sites on Mustang parts, mods, info, etc. This is the system from a "Fox Body" mustang. Very vibrant Mustang community online that can support you. These engines are plentiful and reliable.

[egchewy79]

Or.... If you don't want to go full dinosaur with a carb you could revert to the Factory Five roadster "Original Recipe" and put together a 302 Windsor using the OEM Ford EEC-IV EFI like millions of Mustangs ran for 100,000 miles with no more than regular maintenance spark plug changes. In 15 years and 30K+ miles the only thing I've touched on mine has been the oil drain plug and filter. My buddy Sten is knocking on the door to 100,000 with his. Same with Ron E's personal car and hundreds of other roadsters.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-8oN1zlmfOzJcTbIlWiPRDjmumY5_19NMaTTnFb4znNBBQyADNj Oaslffxk4sx8Cg?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1345057719

:D

Jeff

doesn't ralph button have a SBF in his car? granted it's been rebuilt a few times, but 600K mi speaks for itself.

[drewr]

You can get all the parts new from Mustang sites. New intake manifold, EFI plenum, throttle body, etc. You might need to buy a used ECU. Or refurbished. I'm not sure about that. Otherwise, you could replicate the whole system with new parts.

[Papa]

Could you give me some recommendations for more sophisticated systems to look at?

One thing in this category is going from a throttle body setup (carb type setup) to a multi-port setup where each cylinder has its own injector.

Systems that manage timing is another "advanced" feature.

[edwardb]

Is it possible to get a new long block and add that system on? Can that system be bought new or do I need buy it used? The motor in your picture looks new but perhaps it's remanufactured? I would be VERY interested in this option if I could have a brand new 302 with a proven system, seems like I'd have all the confidence I need for road trips without paying for extra power. Any guidance you can give me on how to get that setup would be appreciated!

Stock Ford SBF's went out of production 20+ years ago. Since there were so many they're still around, and if power kept at a reasonable level (a whole other discussion) a good reliable engine as many have said. Still a bunch in salvage yards, eBay, Craigslist, etc. if you want to go that way. If an OE block is sold as part of an updated engine package, they're remanufactured. Supply of good ones has become more limited, and some builders (like the company that did the 347 build in my #7750 Roadster) don't offer stock block builds any longer. There are new versions being sold, e.g. DART, Ford Boss, Blueprint, and others. But generally they are upgraded and while excellent aren't cheap. Also quite frequently offered at higher displacements like 347, 363, 427 (351 block), etc. As for that 80's induction system, yes it's also reliable and if you have one on a donor engine, nothing wrong with it. But not typically available new. Personally I'd recommend one of the newer setups with more modern technology. Can't argue with the examples Jeff cites. But those aren't new builds. I'd be interested if those same builds were done today, would the builder use the same setup? Over the last 7 years, a local buddy built a Challenge Roadster with the Trick Flow setup pictured is required by the rules. He's got it running good now. But had to find a tuner that knew that vintage. They added an aftermarket chip and then re-tune. Very common with this setup if you want to use the factory ECU.

[rich grsc]

Is it possible to get a new long block and add that system on? Can that system be bought new or do I need buy it used? The motor in your picture looks new but perhaps it's remanufactured? I would be VERY interested in this option if I could have a brand new 302 with a proven system, seems like I'd have all the confidence I need for road trips without paying for extra power. Any guidance you can give me on how to get that setup would be appreciated!
I have a friend with that style intake for sale, but you'd want a new EFI and wiring harness, not the one from a 1993 Mustang.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Stock Ford SBF's went out of production 20+ years ago. Since there were so many they're still around, and if power kept at a reasonable level (a whole other discussion) a good reliable engine as many have said. Still a bunch in salvage yards, eBay, Craigslist, etc. if you want to go that way. If an OE block is sold as part of an updated engine package, they're remanufactured. Supply of good ones has become more limited, and some builders (like the company that did the 347 build in my #7750 Roadster) don't offer stock block builds any longer. There are new versions being sold, e.g. DART, Ford Boss, Blueprint, and others. But generally they are upgraded and while excellent aren't cheap. Also quite frequently offered at higher displacements like 347, 363, 427 (351 block), etc. As for that 80's induction system, yes it's also reliable and if you have one on a donor engine, nothing wrong with it. But not typically available new. Personally I'd recommend one of the newer setups with more modern technology. Can't argue with the examples Jeff cites. But those aren't new builds. I'd be interested if those same builds were done today, would the builder use the same setup? Over the last 7 years, a local buddy built a Challenge Roadster with the Trick Flow setup pictured is required by the rules. He's got it running good now. But had to find a tuner that knew that vintage. They added an aftermarket chip and then re-tune. Very common with this setup if you want to use the factory ECU.

My point was primarily to point out that there are other ways to achieve OEM reliability. Combine a freshly built Blueprint iron headed 302 or aluminum headed 306 with the "combover" Ford intake, a $500 standalone EEC-IV harness that can be married to the Ron Francis chassis harness just as simply as the Ford control pack is for the Coyote, add new sensors, a MAF meter, fresh set of injectors and A9L ECU. Put a new T5 behind it and you'd be rolling with 300-350ish reliable horsepower for right around $10K. It'll do 2 things every time you turn the key---start up and put a smile on your face! Would I go the same route again today? That's a tough question with no clear cut right or wrong answer but it is hard to argue with success :)

Jeff

[Dgc333]

FWIW, I finished the restomod of a 68 Barracuda in 2000. It has a 360 with a 4bbl carb and 4spd manual. I have driven that car 100,000 miles in the past 22 years and the car has never broken down or failed to start. The longest road trip was 1300 miles over a 4 day span. I drive it yearly 700 miles round trip to a car show in upper state NY. I would not hesitate to drive this car anywhere.

To suggest an old school 302 is less reliable than a coyote motor is ludicrous. The coyote by sheer number of parts compared to an old school 302 is going to be statistically less reliable.

I will concede that the 4bbl has some driveability issues when it is cold outside but once warmed up (~5 miles) runs great and likely would get better mileage (but still gets 22 to 23 mpg on the hiway with the carb) with EFI.

With that being said I have a 5.7 HEMI for my 33 Speedstar. Originally I was going to go carb but the cost to carb a HEMI is the same as the Mopar Performance hot rod harness and ECU. When Engine Masters dyno tested a 5.7 hemi with a carb then with the factory manifold and EFI and made 40 HP more the deal was sealed. I am building my FFR Speedstar with a 5.7 with EFI.

[Mike.Bray]

Could you give me some recommendations for more sophisticated systems to look at?

This system is, IMO, quite a bit ahead of the Sniper and includes timing control. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fst-303001 https://www.fuelairspark.com/xfi-sportsman-throttle-body-efi-engine-control-system.html

You can save some money by going to the XFI Street which does not have timing control. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fst-304001 https://www.fuelairspark.com/xfi-street-engine-management-system-w-throttle-body.html

The Sportsman also has boost and nitrous control which you probably don't need so the Street might be a good option for a nice 302.

[edwardb]

My point was primarily to point out that there are other ways to achieve OEM reliability. Combine a freshly built Blueprint iron headed 302 or aluminum headed 306 with the "combover" Ford intake, a $500 standalone EEC-IV harness that can be married to the Ron Francis chassis harness just as simply as the Ford control pack is for the Coyote, add new sensors, a MAF meter, fresh set of injectors and A9L ECU. Put a new T5 behind it and you'd be rolling with 300-350ish reliable horsepower for right around $10K. It'll do 2 things every time you turn the key---start up and put a smile on your face! Would I go the same route again today? That's a tough question with no clear cut right or wrong answer but it is hard to argue with success :)

Jeff

Hi Jeff. Don't disagree with your comments. My main point was to explain traditional OE SBF's aren't new and have been out of production for a long time. Not sure he realizes that. Along with a couple of no added charge opinions. Certainly still can be a basis for a solid and economical build.

[rich grsc]

Hi Jeff. Don't disagree with your comments. My main point was to explain traditional OE SBF's aren't new and have been out of production for a long time. Not sure he realizes that. Along with a couple of no added charge opinions. Certainly still can be a basis for a solid and economical build.
Correct, and the 302 blocks are getting harder to find unless you go with an after market block. I love my 331, and would build another if I needed a new engine

[john42]

+1 for the SBF 302 rebuilt with Trickflow. It's what I run in mine. I beat the crap out of it! 15k miles this summer and lots and lots of autocross and fun track stuff. I make it scream at 5K+ rpm all day and then cruise home with a smile on my face. If it ever blows up I'll do a 331 just like it.

[sread]

Could you give me some recommendations for more sophisticated systems to look at?

Sure - pretty much any system that gets a way from the "all in one unit" is going to be an upgrade. It depends on whether you want to stick with a throttle body system or go with a multi-port injection set up.
I am running an LS with the Holley terminator throttle body system . I wanted to keep it simple and wanted to retain the basic appearance of a carbed engine. The ecu mounts in the passenger compartment and the plug and play harness connects to all the oem sensors. I think it is rated for being suitable for up to 650 hp. The terminator systems use Holleys HP line of ecus. They are also available in multi-port set ups as well. It has more than enough capabilities and features for any basic street car requirements. Next up is their line of Dominator ecus. They just add more features and capability to run additional systems such as boost control, trans brakes, traction control, etc. basically race car stuff.
The good thing with Holley is they are by far the most popular, there is a huge knowledge base out there already, and if you are so inclined it is fairly easy to learn to do whatever you want with it. If that is not your thing, it will be no problem finding a tuner who is familiar with it . As far as needing a tuner to begin with, that will depend. All of the systems claim to be "self tuning" but like the saying goes - "your mileage may vary". The further you get away from a very mild engine combination, particularly in regards to camshaft and exhaust system, the more likely you will need to go in and "tweak" some of the settings, especially when it comes to fine tuning driveablity, cold start, idle, etc. Virtually all of the systems out there now rely almost entirely on readings obtained from a wideband O2 sensor. The accuracy of those signals can vary tremendously depending on installation, exhaust configuration, cam overlap, etc. In other words, it is pretty common to need to go in to the various settings and fine tune things manually. My car has a pretty big cam and an unusual exhaust system and I ended up turning off the the learning entirely and have resorted to fine tuning it manually....but I enjoy doing that kind of thing and have the time for it.
I have also heard good things about the Edelbrock pro-flo systems. I think their are a couple of guys on here running them and are very satisfied.

[Norm B]

Check your local engine rebuild shop. I took my original 302 block to be bored and stroker clearanced when I was building my 331. They found a couple of cracks from head bolt holes to the water jacket passages when they decked the block. I started a search for a block and they said they’d search their stored blocks. They had a warehouse full of different blocks.
They found a good one. They hot tanked, decked it and checked for cracks. After they confirmed it was good, they bored, honed, clearanced the cylinders and fit the pistons.
Total cost, including the block, $1400 Canadian Peso’s. That’s $1050 US.
Deals can be found!

Norm

[Alex_V]

When you did this did you use the 6 speed manual transmission in your build? I seem to see more people using a 5 speed tremec so I'm wondering if it's compatible. And then you have to buy the control pack wiring separately right?

I was also unaware that you could use the rear end from a modern mustang, that's great.

Mr.Edwardb answered all your questions already, so no need to repeat.

Only thing I would add is that you will need a gear shifter relocation kit from FormCars to make things work. Other then that I dont see any issues with MT82 transmission, if its good enough for Ford to provide 5 year/60K powertrain warranty for any knucklehead who buys a Mustang GT, then its probably good enough for my use. That said, with a little effort you can blow up / break any mechanical device - MT82 or Tremec or whatever you choose is not bullet proof.

My point was to show that with some elbow grease you can get an engine and transmission for very cheap. I have absolutely no regrets about the rout I choose. That said, I get the idea of comfort and confidence of going with a brand new crate motor.

[Mike.Bray]

FWIW you can always build your own EFI system, I did it with stack EFI. If I wasn't doing a stack system I would probably build up a multiport system for better fuel distribution. Some suggested parts:

Manifold
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-29215/make/ford

Fuel rails
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-3625

Throttle body
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-4150

Distributor if you want timing control
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fst-305007/make/ford

Either a FAST or Holley Terminator ECU will work with these components.

[Mike.Bray]

Going to throw something out there that I don't think has been mentioned, exhaust tone. My project has a 393W with a big roller cam, stack EFI, and FFR stainless exhaust. It's throaty and a thumper at idle/low speeds. When it's running in my garage my nextdoor neighbor says it rattles the dishes in his kitchen. It shakes the room above the garage where my wife works. I posted some go kart videos on my FB page and got a lot of comments about the sound. For me it screams Cobra and hot rod like the Viper I had.

Yesterday a friend of mine stopped by in his FFR Cobra with a Coyote. This is a very nice high end car complete with a Ken Pike paint job and stock FFR pipes. The thing I noticed from the (relatively) small displacement and variable valve timing of the Coyote was the exhaust note. At idle it kind of purrs. Very smooth and it didn't seem very loud. Of course as you increase the RPM and power this changes.

Some like me may like the throaty and lumpy low speed sound of a pushrod V8 while others may like the smoother softer sound of the Coyote. Just something to consider.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Going to throw something out there that I don't think has been mentioned, exhaust tone. My project has a 393W with a big roller cam, stack EFI, and FFR stainless exhaust. It's throaty and a thumper at idle/low speeds. When it's running in my garage my nextdoor neighbor says it rattles the dishes in his kitchen. It shakes the room above the garage where my wife works. I posted some go kart videos on my FB page and got a lot of comments about the sound. For me it screams Cobra and hot rod like the Viper I had.

Yesterday a friend of mine stopped by in his FFR Cobra with a Coyote. This is a very nice high end car complete with a Ken Pike paint job and stock FFR pipes. The thing I noticed from the (relatively) small displacement and variable valve timing of the Coyote was the exhaust note. At idle it kind of purrs. Very smooth and it didn't seem very loud. Of course as you increase the RPM and power this changes.

Some like me may like the throaty and lumpy low speed sound of a pushrod V8 while others may like the smoother softer sound of the Coyote. Just something to consider.

Thing is the Coyote has variable valve timing & ignition timing on all 32 valves . I have 3 programs coded for mine, Street performance tune 93 octane - idle purrs, neighbors happy - WOT screams, Performance tune 100 octane with idle a bit faster & nosier, power at 488whp on a DynoJet. Finally Street Meet 1967 427 rump, rump idle emulation (aka ghost cam). Takes about 5 minutes to change programs.

Will has set off car alarms in garages & parking lots. Has set off my civilian cars alarms on my driveway

[Mike.Bray]

Thing is the Coyote has variable valve timing & ignition timing on all 32 valves . I have 3 programs coded for mine, Street performance tune 93 octane - idle purrs, neighbors happy - WOT screams, Performance tune 100 octane with idle a bit faster & nosier, power at 488whp on a DynoJet. Finally Street Meet 1967 427 rump, rump idle emulation (aka ghost cam). Takes about 5 minutes to change programs.

Will has set off car alarms in garages & parking lots. Has set off my civilian cars alarms on my driveway

That's pretty cool, how do you change programs? I'm assuming you have to plug in and download?

[VKannan]

Thanks all for the input on this. After going back and forth for a while I ended up buying an LS3 crate engine. I think it ticks all of my boxes and came in significantly cheaper than the coyote, and with double the warranty mileage.

I really appreciate all of the help, I feel really good about the decision!

[Mike.Bray]

Thanks all for the input on this. After going back and forth for a while I ended up buying an LS3 crate engine. I think it ticks all of my boxes and came in significantly cheaper than the coyote, and with double the warranty mileage.

That LS3 is a nice engine!, my wife has one in her SS Camaro and it runs. Inglese builds a stack EFI system for it that will really wake it up!

[OB6]

Thanks all for the input on this. After going back and forth for a while I ended up buying an LS3 crate engine. I think it ticks all of my boxes and came in significantly cheaper than the coyote, and with double the warranty mileage.

I really appreciate all of the help, I feel really good about the decision!

Great choice! Where did you end up getting it?

[BEAR-AvHistory]

That's pretty cool, how do you change programs? I'm assuming you have to plug in and download?

Programs are maintained on a hand held device. Plugs into the OBD II port. Hand held is updated through a USB line from a Lap Top. Procedure is go back to the base program then load the one you want. Not sure about the currant generation on this point but my generation G1 needed a base program created to run well in the car.

Hand held also functions as a fault finder & error code reader.

[SteveHsr]

Ditto on the ‘Great Choice’!

[Kbl7td]

Glad you chose the LS. That thing will run for 300k plus. Likely you’ll replace many other parts on the car before you touch the engine, and it is stupid easy to work on.

[VKannan]

Pace Performance. They have a package that’s not on their site anymore but if you call them it’s still available. Stock cam with TKX, plenty of power for me at 430hp and hopefully as reliable as I can get!

[OB6]

The LS3 crate package is perfect for these cars IMO. I'm surprised we don't see more people making this choice, but I get it... not a Ford etc etc.

[BRRT]

Great choice! Same decision I have made. Did Pace give you a delivery estimate on the engine/transmission package? I contacted them last week, and wouldn't give any estimate on delivery.

-------------------------
Jeff

[VKannan]

Nothing definite, they said roughly 2 months but also said they are just guessing. My delivery date for the complete kit is March so I’m not in a rush.

I’m sure we’ll want to keep in touch as we go through the build using the same engine!


Great choice! Same decision I have made. Did Pace give you a delivery estimate on the engine/transmission package? I contacted them last week, and wouldn't give any estimate on delivery.

-------------------------
Jeff

[BRRT]

Nothing definite, they said roughly 2 months but also said they are just guessing. My delivery date for the complete kit is March so I’m not in a rush.

I’m sure we’ll want to keep in touch as we go through the build using the same engine!

Thanks for the reply. I placed my FFR order last week. Estimated delivery 8 LONG months away. I'm currently shopping for an LS. Still seriously thinking about building my own if I can find a core that is in usable shape at a reasonable price. A lot of decisions to make!

BTW, I went to build school early November and had a great time. An interesting group of people in class. A wide range of automotive experiences.

--------------------------------
Jeff

[Avalanche325]

EFI is great. But let's get real....

If all you have to do is work on your carb.......then you don't know how to work on a carb.
I haven't touched mine in 7 years, 30K+miles, autocross, track days, and 1000 mile trips.