how many is too many Clecos? and rivots

[Joe Tarrence]

Hey all,

im building a MkIV and wondering how many Clecos will I need? while they are relatively inexpensive.... I won't have another need outside of the build.

also... any benefit from owning a cordless riveter?

[Papa]

I had about 100 1/8" and 25 3/16". You can easily get by with fewer. You just need enough to hold a panel in place while you rivet it to the chassis. More complex assemblies where you have multiple panels that overlap (foot boxes) will benefit from a few more. Some put a Cleco in every hole, but that isn't necessary.

[DadofThree]

Get 50 clecos and see if you need more as you do the build. They're a great tool. If you get too many and need to get rid of them after your build, someone will take them off your hands. I still have mine (and some in the car too)

Cordless riveter? Nah. I didn't see the need.

[Alan_C]

Yeah my second bag of 50 1/8" clecos has never been opened.
I too thought I would never have a need for them, however I have used them on my Mustang project. They are great for holding sheet metal in place when I put new quarter skins on the car.
I think it is getting closer to the time when I will move them on to somebody who needs them.

[drewr]

I bought a set with maybe 25-30 of each 1/8" and 3/16" clecos and a tool. I have never used them all at once, and I'm almost done with my aluminum work on my Type 65 Coupe. Usually you just need enough to hold the panel down while you drill the holes. I've used a hand riveter for the entire car, and never felt the need for a powered tool. Usually, your are just working on one section at a time. Some guys cleco all the panels at once to mock things up. It just depends on how you want to do your build.

[edwardb]

Everybody is different and everybody has an opinion. You'll get answers less than 25 to over 100. I tend to have more than average. But that's me. You'll used 1/8" almost exclusively. They're easy to get and as you said not expensive. I'd suggest starting with 50 1/8" size and maybe only 5-10 of the 3/16" size. You can easily get more if you find your building preference is to use more.

Lots of discussions too about powered rivet guns including the Milwaukee M12 cordless riveter. I have one and love it. Used a pneumatic one for a couple builds and find the cordless works just as well (or better) and really nice not dragging around an air hose. You'll find many others like power. Others don't find it necessary. Another builder preference.

[skidd]

.. and.. I'll be that guy that says..
you can get away with zero too.
I used the self-taping screws that came with the delivered kit.
.. ;)

[egchewy79]

I only ordered 50 1/8" clecos and used a harbor freight hand riveting tool.
it's either a badge of honor or a sign of stupidity, considering there are like 1000 rivets that you need to pull.
FYI, if you get any parts from Breeze, they usually come with SS rivets. I nearly gave myself an aneurysm trying to pull the 3/16" SS rivets for my front battery box by hand.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Although some guys like to go full porcupine and put one in every hole it really isn’t necessary. I started with 100 1/8” and don’t remember a time when I’ve had them all in use at once. I have never owned a 3/16” cleco and can’t say that I have felt the need to get any.

Jeff

[Mike.Bray]

any benefit from owning a cordless riveter?

I used a "cordless" riveter and it worked great. My wife Rosy even used it without any problem.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20220811163636mediumrotated.jpg

[mmklaxer]

Breeze's website recommends 50 1/8" and 10 3/16", and I followed his recommendation. I'm just about to wrap up the final panel installs. I got close to using all the 1/8", but never had a problem. Never used all the 3/16's

[GoDadGo]

I had about 100 1/8" and 25 3/16". You can easily get by with fewer. You just need enough to hold a panel in place while you rivet it to the chassis. More complex assemblies where you have multiple panels that overlap (foot boxes) will benefit from a few more. Some put a Cleco in every hole, but that isn't necessary.

Ditto!

[mladen]

Yeah, personally, I don't know if I ever used more than 20 at any given time during the build. If you're just holding a panel in place for the sake of it, 2-3 are fine in a few spots. When you're doing final assembly you'll use more, but also remove them quickly as you rivet it in place.

[Dgc333]

.. and.. I'll be that guy that says..
you can get away with zero too.
I used the self-taping screws that came with the delivered kit.
.. ;)

I didn't use any either. I just clamped the panels in place then drilled a few holes and installed the rivits. Then went back and drilled the remaining holes. In the case of the trunk panels FFR had installed those with self tapping screws for shipping. I used those holes to hold the panels in place.

[edwardb]

At the risk of overdoing the subject, a few words about Clecos. Maybe not so much for builders who have already completed their builds and have their minds made up. But more so for beginners who don’t know what they are or how many to use. First, I have to say I’m constantly amazed at the responses to this topic. Which comes up frequently. Right up there with power steering. For whatever reason these threads seem to turn into a contest about how few Clecos to use (if at all..). Maybe not knowing how well they work? Maybe not willing to spend the money? About $50 will get you 50 1/8” Clecos and pliers. For builds with costs anywhere from $20/30/40/50 whatever thousand. Guys routinely spend 5 digits on engines without questions but can’t find a way to buy Clecos? Strange. At least to me.

Many know that Clecos came out of the airplane industry. They are used to temporarily hold pieces together, simulating rivets, until the final rivets are installed. I was first introduced to them when our oldest son was in A&P class. Required by his university even though he was primarily doing flight, instrument, commercial, etc. In aviation, they are typically placed in every hole (of which there can be hundreds) to make sure every hole aligns perfectly, there is no twisting or buckling of the skins, etc. which are typically thinner than the aluminum we use in our builds. Then systematically, the Clecos are removed and replaced by rivets. It's a process that works very well. Our builds don’t need to follow that practice exactly because we’re primarily going into rigid frame members. Even panel to panel is relatively rigid. But the Clecos work perfectly to hold the panels in place as you’re drilling and later placing and riveting. I also find them extremely valuable when doing multiple panels where there’s interaction between the panels regarding fit. Not unusual, at least in my building method, to have an entire footbox or rear cockpit wall Cleco’d in place while drilling and later finalizing. That way you know you have the best possible fit for the entire assembly and it can be repeated. For sure doesn’t require a Cleco in every hole. But enough to keep all sides in place and properly aligned. Yes, you could clamp instead. But Clecos just work so well. Can self-tapping screws be used instead? I guess. But I would maintain Clecos work better and more efficiently. We’re not building airplanes, but self-tapping screws would be a total no-no as damaging the hole (e.g. with the threads), possibly creating burrs, etc. is strictly prohibited and could eventually cause the joint to break down or the skins to weaken or crack. FWIW, we’re not the only ones using Clecos for automotive. If you watch any of the number of car shows on TV you’ll see them frequently used for body work, fabrication, etc. They are just super handy and functional. I actually find them kind of fun to use. OK, enough about that.

On a slightly different subject, I’d recommend being cautious about using the shipping screw locations for the panels without carefully checking the locations and especially the interaction to other parts. I’ve found that sometimes the locations are fine. But I’ve also found they can be off. No shade for the guys in shipping at FF. They aren’t building the kit. They’re attaching the panels so they’re secure for shipping.

OK, that’s probably more than a few words…

[Namrups]

At the risk of overdoing the subject, a few words about Clecos. Maybe not so much for builders who have already completed their builds and have their minds made up. But more so for beginners who don’t know what they are or how many to use. First, I have to say I’m constantly amazed at the responses to this topic. Which comes up frequently. Right up there with power steering. For whatever reason these threads seem to turn into a contest about how few Clecos to use (if at all..). Maybe not knowing how well they work? Maybe not willing to spend the money? About $50 will get you 50 1/8” Clecos and pliers. For builds with costs anywhere from $20/30/40/50 whatever thousand. Guys routinely spend 5 digits on engines without questions but can’t find a way to buy Clecos? Strange. At least to me.

Many know that Clecos came out of the airplane industry. They are used to temporarily hold pieces together, simulating rivets, until the final rivets are installed. I was first introduced to them when our oldest son was in A&P class. Required by his university even though he was primarily doing flight, instrument, commercial, etc. In aviation, they are typically placed in every hole (of which there can be hundreds) to make sure every hole aligns perfectly, there is not twisting or buckling of the skins, etc. which are typically thinner than the aluminum we use in our builds. Then systematically, the Clecos are removed and replaced by rivets. It's a process that works very well. Our builds don’t need to follow that practice exactly because we’re primarily going into rigid frame members. Even panel to panel is relatively rigid. But the Clecos work perfectly to hold the panels in place as you’re drilling and later placing and riveting. I also find them extremely valuable when doing multiple panels where there’s interaction between the panels regarding fit. Not unusual, at least in my building method, to have an entire footbox or rear cockpit wall Cleco’d in place while drilling and later finalizing. That way you know you have the best possible fit for the entire assembly and it can be repeated. For sure doesn’t require a Cleco in every hole. But enough to keep all sides in place and properly aligned. Yes, you could clamp instead. But Clecos just work so well. Can self-tapping screws be used instead? I guess. But I would maintain Clecos work better and more efficiently. We’re not building airplanes, but self-tapping screws would be a total no-no as damaging the hole (e.g. with the threads), possibly creating burrs, etc. is strictly prohibited and could eventually cause the joint to break down or the skins to weaken or crack. FWIW, we’re not the only ones using Clecos for automotive. If you watch any of the number of car shows on TV you’ll see them frequently used for body work, fabrication, etc. They are just super handy and functional. I actually find them kind of fun to use. OK, enough about that.

On a slightly different subject, I’d recommend being cautious about using the shipping screw locations for the panels without carefully checking the locations and especially the interaction to other parts. I’ve found that sometimes the locations are fine. But I’ve also found they can be off. No shade for the guys in shipping at FF. They aren’t building the kit. They’re attaching the panels so they’re secure for shipping.

OK, that’s probably more than a few words…

I wish I had read that last paragraph about 100 days ago!!. I do have one location that I used the shipping hole when I should not have. It has caused a misalignment of a couple of panels. I can see it and I'm sure if you were to look you would pick it out right away but luckily it will be covered by carpet and in the end only I will know it's there.

[rich grsc]

I didn't use any either. I just clamped the panels in place then drilled a few holes and installed the rivits. Then went back and drilled the remaining holes. In the case of the trunk panels FFR had installed those with self tapping screws for shipping. I used those holes to hold the panels in place.
I highly recommend you do not do this. You will trap bits of metal burs from drilling, between the panels and the frame. On everyone of my builds, I would mark and lay out the rivet positions on the panel, then drill and de-bur the holes. Position the panels back on the frame and start drilling into the frame, adding clecos every third or fourth hole. When finished drilling into the frame, remove panel and de-bur the frame. Extra work but every panel fit tightly to the frame and each other

[John Ibele]

I highly recommend you do not do this. You will trap bits of metal burs from drilling, between the panels and the frame. On everyone of my builds, I would mark and lay out the rivet positions on the panel, then drill and de-bur the holes. Position the panels back on the frame and start drilling into the frame, adding clecos every third or fourth hole. When finished drilling into the frame, remove panel and de-bur the frame. Extra work but every panel fit tightly to the frame and each other

Agreed and worth pointing out, even if a bit off topic from the OP's question of how many Clecos. Clecos and proper procedure for panel drilling and prep are both key inputs to joint integrity (having metal where you want it, and not where you don't). That's where Cleco's are such a clear winner - they're easier to use than a clamp, but more important is that they maintain secure alignment of panels in the clamped position, enabling good alignment in subsequent holes that are drilled. And - repeatable alignment for any panel that is temporarily removed and deburred. They were handy everywhere I was installing a panel, but I can't imagine how I would have done my extended footbox without Cleco's. A good to-do item for any new builder (after ordering Clecos) is to read threads on various approaches to proper panel drilling and prep.

[OB6]

Question, in the spirit of panel prep. For those who have mocked-up the panels and then had them powder-coated, did the panels go back on as they originally did, or did the coating created alignment issues?

[edwardb]

Question, in the spirit of panel prep. For those who have mocked-up the panels and then had them powder-coated, did the panels go back on as they originally did, or did the coating created alignment issues?

No change. Fit exactly as before. Only minor issue is it may be necessary to run a drill through the rivet holes to clear PC from the holes. Easy and quick to do.

[Papa]

To add a couple more points to this discussion. We all have the same goal of getting our panels fit and placed for a quality finished product. Clecos are an affordable tool to help with that. My approach was to position the panel and see how it fit and where the rivets should go. I then marked the rivet placement on the panel with equal spacing across each edge. Sometimes this takes a little planning to get it right. If you just start on one edge and mark rivets using the spacing tool, you may come up with too large or too small a spacing on the opposite edge. Paul mentioned the aircraft industry and there are some cool tools they use to get very exact spacing across the edge of a panel. I didn't use one, but tried to ensure my spacing was as even as possible. Once I marked the positions, I used a punch to help keep the drill bit from walking from the intended position and drilled the panels with a piece of 2x4 under the edge. I then de-burred the holes and positioned the panel back on the chassis. I drilled through the hole on one edge of the panel through the chassis and put a Cleco in to hold it in place. I then did the same at the other edge of the panel. Now with two Clecos holding the panel, I would start in the center and place a third Cleco and then finish drilling the remainder of the holes in the chassis from there. Once all the holes were drilled, I removed the panel and cleaned all the metal bits that drilling created and move to the next panel. For assemblies like foot boxes, I'd do the entire assembly before riveting anything on.

Edit: Rivet spacing tool video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMcW9qFOfiE

[nucjd19]

These are some of my favorite threads :) I am done with my build but I just love reading everyones responses and in particular the pro guys on the forum. It reminds me of some awesome ZEN times on my build where there was no stress and just drilling, de-bur'ing the holes and cleco'ing the panels, final fitment. It was a really a fun time :) Pic of Cleco'ing the crap out of the rear cockpit panel and hanging with my daughters :)
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=140075&d=1609386633

[haak60]

I haven’t used one yet and I’m almost done with sheetmetal on my roadster

[smccoy]

I bought (and used) 150 1/8" clecos and only a few of the 3/16, but I pre-drilled and mounted all the aluminum on the chassis at once (front suspension parts were all POL at the time). As has been said, you can skip quite a few holes between clecos when fitting things up. As for a powered rivet tool, I have the Milwaukee M12 tool as well and love it. Keep an eye on the upcoming Black Friday deals for cordless tools, too. While the rivet tool never went on sale, I was able to buy the cheapest M12 starter kit that Home Depot offered (2 batteries, charger, and screwdriver) along with the bare tool for much less than the tool with batteries.