Please be careful!

[Randy's]

We all read about how these machines can bite you. Short wheel base, high power to weight ratio, no traction control, no anti-lock brakes, etc. I had my first "incident" last night. The wife and I wanted pizza for dinner, rather than delivery, I choose to drive the roadster to pick it up; nice weather, short drive, no big deal. Turning left at a busy intersection, I had to get up to speed fairly quickly. Shifting into second gear, the back-end starts to let loss and in the blink of an eye, I am sideways. I've had some training so I made the appropriate "corrections" but still ended up doing a 180 in the opposite direction. I'm not sure if it was my skills or just luck but I was able to keep the car "between the ditches". Cars behind were able to stop. I consider myself fortunate. I was not overly aggressive in my driving but simply getting up to speed the way I've done dozens of times before at this same intersection. These machines give little to no warning and behave differently than anything I have ever driven. I'm sharing in hopes of helping others. Don't get complacent with these monsters.

[TMartinLVNV]

Yep Yep! I've come close a few times, but so far haven't spun it out. Perhaps it is because I drive so slow :cool:

It's always good to have a reminder.

[Sdonnel]

I treat mine like a point and shoot device. Light on the gas pedal until straight. All that goes out the window at autocross. Glad you're OK.

Scott

[john42]

I treat mine like a point and shoot device. Light on the gas pedal until straight. All that goes out the window at autocross. Glad you're OK.

Scott

Lol yep! This.

Last autocross I was punching it hard on the last 1/4 of a big sweeping corner into a long straight. The curled elevens I was making for burnout marks were lots of fun. Prolly didn't really help my time tho. :-) Fun as heck!

[Dgc333]

The main reasons I decided to do a stock rebuild on the 5.7 hemi going into my hot rod. I was originally going to build the engine and it is real easy to get to 500HP. As I thought about it, I am not going to race it and 500HP in a sub 3000lb vehicle is going to be handful.

[danmas]

It occurs to me that I want to teach my kid to drive this mythical beast (c'mon May 23... Ship date). Anyone thought about a governor or something that I can flip a switch on? Is there such a thing?

Thanks!
Dan

[Al_C]

One thing I was taught (and hopefully learned) at HPDE: when you start out you have cold tires, cold brakes, and a cold brain. Take it easy until everything warms up. Glad you had a happy ending.

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's not just the pedal on the right...nor is it how much power you have available. Last month I was leading a group of our Hoosier Cobra Club members on a cruise through some of the best hilly and curvy roads in south central Indiana. I realized that the second car and I were alone so stopped when it was safe to allow the rest to catch up. After a minute or two when they didn't appear we went back to check and found what had been the third car, a Superformance, facing the wrong way in a ditch with a road sign wedged underneath. Turns out as he was negotiating a downhill decreasing radius curve he braked and downshifted in the middle of it. BIG MISTAKE! He got the all important brake---shift---steer sequence all wrong which sent him around as the back end unloaded at the same time the rear wheels were being slowed and the fronts were turned. That's a recipe for disaster! Thankfully he's fine and the car can be repaired. So....be aware that it's not always while accelerating that you can get into trouble. Learn the dynamics of the car under all conditions. No better place to do that than at some autocrosses where you can safely push both the car and yourself to the limits...and beyond ;) Like I tell the students when I instruct at our region's driver's schools "You won't know where the limits are until you cross them!" The street isn't the place to find out.

Jeff

[Jim1855]

It occurs to me that I want to teach my kid to drive this mythical beast (c'mon May 23... Ship date). Anyone thought about a governor or something that I can flip a switch on? Is there such a thing?

Thanks!
Dan

I am planning on a throttle pedal block to restrict pedal travel. It will not change the speed of application as will some of the new electronic throttle pedal controls.

My thought is a rotating "cam" of sorts that can be turned to various levels of control, perhaps something like 1/3 travel or 1/2 travel. This is your "valet" switch.

I believe that you need to do more than restrict max RPM, often a motor will develop full torque well before full RPM. My 427 has over 400 torque at the wheels at 3,000. Not opening the throttle will reduce the available torque.

Control and respect of the skinny pedal is key. It really is a push slowly and release slowly device.

Jim

[MB750]

We all read about how these machines can bite you. Short wheel base, high power to weight ratio, no traction control, no anti-lock brakes, etc. I had my first "incident" last night. The wife and I wanted pizza for dinner, rather than delivery, I choose to drive the roadster to pick it up; nice weather, short drive, no big deal. Turning left at a busy intersection, I had to get up to speed fairly quickly. Shifting into second gear, the back-end starts to let loss and in the blink of an eye, I am sideways. I've had some training so I made the appropriate "corrections" but still ended up doing a 180 in the opposite direction. I'm not sure if it was my skills or just luck but I was able to keep the car "between the ditches". Cars behind were able to stop. I consider myself fortunate. I was not overly aggressive in my driving but simply getting up to speed the way I've done dozens of times before at this same intersection. These machines give little to no warning and behave differently than anything I have ever driven. I'm sharing in hopes of helping others. Don't get complacent with these monsters.

I'm curious. What kind of power you got, and what make/model/size are your tires?

[GoDadGo]

Hey Randy,

The first time my car caught my attention caused me to nearly hit a friends dog that decided to chase me...I stepped on it to scoot away from that old pooch and the car stepped sideways almost getting him.

As for the F-5 Gang, we are all glad that things turned out okay and that only you pride was hurt...While I've been lucky and have yet to spin mine, I hope that if I do I hope I'll be lucky as you with only my driving pride being hurt.

Steve (aka: GoDadGo)

[Railroad]

Tires!!!!!

[rich grsc]

As Jeff says, NEVER shift these cars in a turn, either up or down. If you do, just be ready, corrections will be needed.
What kind of tires are on the car? Even if you don't plan on tracking the car, you still need the best gripping tires you can afford

[mburger]

I’m sure most of us remember my “sit and spin” post. (Search for it) Same situation, up shifting out of an intersection not pushing it nearly as hard as I’ve done a thousand times before. Exactly like Randy’s incident. I think adding to all the other advice, I would be cautious accelerating or decelerating through an intersection. Perhaps there is extra oil like you see just after a dip or bump in the road. Just a thought.

[GoDadGo]

I think motorcycle riders likely have an advantage when transitioning from piloting a powered two wheeler to piloting a Cobra because this thread has me thinking about stuff I learned decades ago when I attended several motorcycle training classes after getting my motorcycle endorsement.

I attended the Basic training course, went back for the Intermediate and finally the Advanced...The big takeaway for all of these classes was that our tires could only do one thing well at a time and managing traction was always paramount...We were told that our tires can Accelerate, Turn and Stop really well, but if we asked them to do more than one thing at a time then we must be careful.

I think we all need to remember these three things since most of us, myself included, are Average Joe Cobra Drivers.

[Joel Hauser]

I had the very same experience not long after I got my car on the road. Driving to the supermarket, I made a left turn from a traffic light. Before I knew it I was facing the center divider. I probably shifted into 3rd while turning, and was having a little too much fun driving. Fortunately for me the only injury was to my pride. I still have fun driving, I'm just much more aware of the cars potential.

[Jeff Kleiner]

…our tires can Accelerate, Turn and Stop really well, but if we asked them to do more than one thing at a time then we must be careful.



Steve,
You’re talking about the “traction circle”, something that we discuss when instructing. For example you can use 100% of the available traction to accelerate or brake but if you throw in turning at the same time and use 50% of that grip for cornering it only leaves 50% for braking or accelerating. I know you like the YouTubes—-this guy does a good job of explaining it more scientifically:


https://www.google.com/search?q=traction+circle+diagram&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:acc6bed3,vid:JjCcFsGLpaM

Jeff

[Blitzboy54]

I think motorcycle riders likely have an advantage when transitioning from piloting a powered two wheeler to piloting a Cobra because this thread has me thinking about stuff I learned decades ago when I attended several motorcycle training classes after getting my motorcycle endorsement.

I attended the Basic training course, went back for the Intermediate and finally the Advanced...The big takeaway for all of these classes was that our tires could only do one thing well at a time and managing traction was always paramount...We were told that our tires can Accelerate, Turn and Stop really well, but if we asked them to do more than one thing at a time then we must be careful.

I think we all need to remember these three things since most of us, myself included, are Average Joe Cobra Drivers.


This might be true. Ive been picking my spots now and then and what it reminds me of is driving a motorcycle. I’ve tracked bikes for a 20 years (all sold now). It’s not apples to apples but it’s a lot closer than I expected.

[GoDadGo]

This might be true. Ive been picking my spots now and then and what it reminds me of is driving a motorcycle. I’ve tracked bikes for a 20 years (all sold now). It’s not apples to apples but it’s a lot closer than I expected.

I've never tracked a bike, except in a straight line at our local dragstrip; however, I logged tons of miles and really find that my mindset when driving my MK-4 is really a motorcycle kind of attitude. What I like about driving the car is I focus on just the car and the road, nothing else. I agree that though it isn't an Apples to Apples scenario, but like you agree that it is pretty darn close.

[cc2Arider]

"...my mindset when driving my MK-4 is really a motorcycle kind of attitude" I'll second that GoDadGo!

The last motorcycle class that I took was California Superbike School in the early 90s, but ridden on the street since then. Assume they are out to get you and defensive driving becomes second nature. Combine that with the zen-like mindset from piloting a powerful machine that demands respect, and you'll be in a good place mentally.

While I've never driven a Mk4, my outlook is that it will be a 4-wheeled motorcycle...and I can't wait to join the experience! :)

Craig C

[Al_C]

"...my mindset when driving my MK-4 is really a motorcycle kind of attitude" I'll second that GoDadGo!

The last motorcycle class that I took was California Superbike School in the early 90s, but ridden on the street since then. Assume they are out to get you and defensive driving becomes second nature. Combine that with the zen-like mindset from piloting a powerful machine that demands respect, and you'll be in a good place mentally.

While I've never driven a Mk4, my outlook is that it will be a 4-wheeled motorcycle...and I can't wait to join the experience! :)

Craig C

Yes, you need to really be aware of everyone else. I find that when I'm out and about, my head is on a swivel the entire time.

[Peeker]

When I’m driving, I do treat mine as a motorcycle. What I mean is my head is constantly on a swivel looking for the next person trying to kill me. Since I’ve never owned a vehicle with this much power and am not a race car driver, I heeded some advice from someone wiser than me, the gas pedal isn’t a gas pedal, it is a trigger. Before you engage the trigger, make sure all four tires are pointed the same direction. (and I have still had the rear fish tail a bit even with that advice). Finally, as far as a “limiter” I have 3 tunes on my car. If I were to let someone drive my car and want to be cautious with them, I set the valet tune. It only will rev to 3,000 rpm.

[Sdonnel]

Like Jeff and other have said, don't ask the tires to two things at once. My last autocross even, I entered a sweeping 180 degree turn. Slightly too much speed and I stabbed the brakes while starting my turn. Not hard, but enough to put me into a spin, which was gloriously caught by a buddy of mine on video. Lesson learned.

Scott

[UpNorth]

Amen for this thread!
I haven't drove mine yet but I sure am aware of what could happen when reading what you guys been through.
Thanks for sharing.
There is a build school..Is there a driving school for our beasts?

Francois

[Jeff Kleiner]

Like Jeff and other have said, don't ask the tires to two things at once. My last autocross even, I entered a sweeping 180 degree turn. Slightly too much speed and I stabbed the brakes while starting my turn. Not hard, but enough to put me into a spin, which was gloriously caught by a buddy of mine on video. Lesson learned.

Scott

Oh yeah Scott! I’ve been around on course more times than I can count…most times when I feel it let go I just crank the wheel, put the pedal down and turn the whole mess into a couple of smoky donuts. The course workers enjoy that :D :D :D

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=174323&d=1667228233

Jeff

174323

[Randy's]

To answer the question about engine and tires, I am running a BPE 347 (roughly 425 HP and 425 torque) and Nitto tires.

[MB750]

To answer the question about engine and tires, I am running a BPE 347 (roughly 425 HP and 425 torque) and Nitto tires.

Thank you. I'm always curious about this when somebody mentions a spinout. Mine's going to get a DIY 306SBF with an estimated 375 hp at the crank, but my tires will be the weak link. For break-in I'm just going with what came off the donor, which is just some bi-directional all season rubber, but once break-in is over I'll get something stickier.

[Avalanche325]

It occurs to me that I want to teach my kid to drive this mythical beast (c'mon May 23... Ship date). Anyone thought about a governor or something that I can flip a switch on? Is there such a thing?

Thanks!
Dan

That won't teach him a thing. It will actually instill a false sense of security.

Take yourself and your son to autocross.

[Avalanche325]

Amen for this thread!
I haven't drove mine yet but I sure am aware of what could happen when reading what you guys been through.
Thanks for sharing.
There is a build school..Is there a driving school for our beasts?

Francois

https://www.scca.com/pages/autocross

[Avalanche325]

Here is one thing that people seem to forget. Traction is an ever changing variable. You can be on a section of road that you know like the back of your hand and get a surprise. Temperature of both the road and your tires, air pressure, how clean or dirty is the road, moisture, or did some dump truck leak oil on it. You never really know.

The other thing is that it is just as important how you get off the throttle as how you get on it. More actually. Abrupt lifting is where most people snap it around.

It is always a good reminder to have a thread like this now and then.

[danmas]

That won't teach him a thing. It will actually instill a false sense of security.

Take yourself and your son to autocross.

Her.

The notion was to teach her how to drive a manual first. Pretty hard to find manual transmissions any longer. Having to learn to drive a manual where if you drop the clutch on a 500hp engine you are in trouble seems problematic. That being said driving school and starting on a sh*t box car seems like the wise choice.

Appreciate your thoughts!
Dan

[Avalanche325]

Her.

The notion was to teach her how to drive a manual first. Pretty hard to find manual transmissions any longer. Having to learn to drive a manual where if you drop the clutch on a 500hp engine you are in trouble seems problematic. That being said driving school and starting on a sh*t box car seems like the wise choice.

Appreciate your thoughts!
Dan

Oops .....her. Sorry about that. Fully learning to drive a manual. Now I get it.
There is an FFR owner that I know that learned to drive a manual in his Cobra. It seems a scary place to do it. I learned in a VW bug.
The days of getting a rental car to do that are long gone.

[42Bfast]

Her.

The notion was to teach her how to drive a manual first. Pretty hard to find manual transmissions any longer. Having to learn to drive a manual where if you drop the clutch on a 500hp engine you are in trouble seems problematic. That being said driving school and starting on a sh*t box car seems like the wise choice.

Appreciate your thoughts!
Dan

There is a saying among some in the Motorsport world that I think is appropriate. The best first answer is “Miata”.
They are fantastic cars, they handle great, even in stock configuration, and will teach her about weight transfers and energy management at a much safer pace than the Cobra roadster.
As you and several others have recognized, the Cobra can be a handful even for experienced drivers. I would strongly encourage you to not put her in that until she’s ready.
For what little it’s worth, my $.02, respectfully submitted…..
Buy a good used Miata, keep it for a couple years or so, let her autocross in it, and as long as she doesn’t wreck it, you can probably get your money back. There are 4 generations so you should be able to find something that suits you, her, and your wallet. And most have manual transmissions so should be easy to scratch that itch.

[danmas]

There is a saying among some in the Motorsport world that I think is appropriate. The best first answer is “Miata”.
They are fantastic cars, they handle great, even in stock configuration, and will teach her about weight transfers and energy management at a much safer pace than the Cobra roadster.
As you and several others have recognized, the Cobra can be a handful even for experienced drivers. I would strongly encourage you to not put her in that until she’s ready.
For what little it’s worth, my $.02, respectfully submitted…..
Buy a good used Miata, keep it for a couple years or so, let her autocross in it, and as long as she doesn’t wreck it, you can probably get your money back. There are 4 generations so you should be able to find something that suits you, her, and your wallet. And most have manual transmissions so should be easy to scratch that itch.

Good advice, thank you…

[Andrew Davis]

Have to agree with 42B, my daughter and son learned manuals in underpowered cars on logging (dirt) roads. Seemed to help in coordinating clutch and throttle use, as it's more forgiving than asphalt. I suspect a frozen lake would be the best for all types of driving, but we don't have any where I live.

[JeffP]

It occurs to me that I want to teach my kid to drive this mythical beast (c'mon May 23... Ship date). Anyone thought about a governor or something that I can flip a switch on? Is there such a thing?

Thanks!
Dan

If you're doing a Coyote, maybe a pedal commander? these drive by wire systems have a lot of options for being reprogrammed to change the throttle response curve.

https://pedalcommander.com/products/ford-mustang

[john42]

Oops .....her. Sorry about that. Fully learning to drive a manual. Now I get it.
There is an FFR owner that I know that learned to drive a manual in his Cobra. It seems a scary place to do it. I learned in a VW bug.
The days of getting a rental car to do that are long gone.

Heh I learned at age 16 in a 1966 Shelby GT350 Mustang. Now as an adult I can imagine the conversations my parents must have had....

[J R Jones]

Her.

The notion was to teach her how to drive a manual first. Pretty hard to find manual transmissions any longer. Having to learn to drive a manual where if you drop the clutch on a 500hp engine you are in trouble seems problematic. That being said driving school and starting on a sh*t box car seems like the wise choice.

Appreciate your thoughts!
Dan
Dan,
I influenced my son's first car, a used red 2004 Mitsubishi Eclipse with 2.4 liter four cylinder and five speed. He learned to shift and to maintain/repair his car, as a manageable package. In WI the FWD did well in winter.
In reference to your first teaching concept, I would have had concerns with his ability to deal with the ubiquitous round-a-bouts in WI. He had my example of late braking, curb apexes and WOT exits. The Mitsu was far less lethal than a Cobra replica in that environment.
jim

[Tooth]

Her.

The notion was to teach her how to drive a manual first. Pretty hard to find manual transmissions any longer. Having to learn to drive a manual where if you drop the clutch on a 500hp engine you are in trouble seems problematic. That being said driving school and starting on a sh*t box car seems like the wise choice.

Appreciate your thoughts!
Dan

I picked up a cheap miata to teach two of my kids stick. One was 14, and the other 12 at the time. Once they could do a 3 point turn on a hill I sold it.

[Avalanche325]

MIATA!!!Of course. The universal answer for all things motorsport. The cool thing is you can get one cheap, thrash it, then sell it for what you paid for it. Maybe more. ND1 prices are going up.

.....I always joke at autocross that if I start to take it serious...... I'll get a Miata.

[Doug er]

Great thread! Thank you for the reminder!!!

Doug S.

[cob427sc]

I taught my son on my first Cobra back in 1999. Big Parking lot with no poles. Surprisingly he picked up the clutch engagement relatively quick but I was appreciative of the racing harness the first time he stood on the brakes. 4 of the FFR cars I have built have been crashed in one way or another after they were sold. My coupe was crashed by the truck delivery guy unloading the car in a parking lot, punched it in reverse and spun into a light pole taking off the left rear quarter! Last roadster I built, I followed the buyer to his house after reviewing the issues with driving a high powered car. First 90 degree intersection he punched the gas, spun in the intersection, luckily no damage. I've been told since he bought the car (5+ years ago) he only rolls it out of the garage to wash and wax and rolls it back in as he is afraid to drive it.

[nucjd19]

The thing about my Roadster is this..... Is it beyond powerful and a torque monster??? Yep. Does it want to snap oversteer like a 1980s 911 with a grudge? Yep.... but does it have a gas and brake pedal??? Yep! Unlike some of our Gran Prix Jumper horses on our farm. Those horses are like a hypercars with their own minds. If it does not want to slow down...it won't. These cars can take you off the cliff but you have to kick them unlike some of my horses that will take you there freely.

As an aside I am currently teaching my daughter on the farm to drive. We are starting with the Gator then graduating to the fj40 Landcruiser. Gonna be a long time before she pilots the roadster.

[CraigS]

A couple of thoughts. It is getting cold in a lot of the country now. Cold roads and tires have markedly less traction. You rarely notice this in a daily driver but it is real noticeable in an FFR. Limiting gas pedal travel could maybe help w/ a novice but I like setting it up for a longer pedal travel. This is easy w/ a mechanical linkage but may be able to adjusted somewhat w/ a cable. Longer travel means that a 1/2 inch movement at the pedal will do less at the carb or throttle body. W/ less traction due to the cold try dropping your tire pressures 2-3#. Now for my favorite comment. Run autocrosses. Leave ego at home and just concentrate on having fun and making each run a little faster than the previous one. Talk to every one because they all will be glad to help out a new guy. Between runs ask the guys near you how they are doing turn X. If you find they are also loose (or tight) there, now you know it is a characteristic of the course so no need to change how you are doing the turn or change your car setup. You can't really miss out on how your times compare to others but concentrate on your times improving and don't feel bad when a 20yr old in a 10yr old Miata beats you. Have fun!!!