Coupe?

[GPZ10]

Hey guys, I'm new here, so I'll introduce myself quick first:
My name's Greg, I'm a 27 year old graduating electrical engineering major. Currently, I'm rebuilding a '72 CB350 into a modern cafe racer. My first car build will come next year after I'm out of school and have a full time job.

My main question is this:
I've been following this concept since close to the beginning and have been very interesetd in building one. Will there be a hardtop coupe version of this vehicle, or will they all be roadsters? I can't seem to find anything mentioning a hardtop coupe, it all seems to deal with roadsters. It's somewhat of a make or break point for me. Not sure why, but I hate roadsters with a passion, personally.

If this is only in roadster form, I'll have to wait for a while, save more and purchase a GTM kit possibly instead. Can someone tell me if a coupe of this vehicle is in the works? Thanks for all you help everyone.

[Niburu]

There probably wont be a hardtop coupe with the first run of cars.
I believe the plan (as I understand it) is to release the basic most affordable buld first, which would be the street version roadster, then a track model roadster, and finally a sleek hi mileage car.
I would imagine the the third car would be a coupe or targa.
The time frame on these releases is sorta up in the air right now as they still have to finalize the chassis design.
So stick around and see what they come up with, you've at least a year before FFR is going to be ready to sell anything.

[Oppenheimer]

My read of the tea leaves is that some of the designs will be offered in Roadster-or-Targa-or-Coupe.

We know there are 3 'purposes', Street Roadster, Track Racer, High MPG Coupe. But we also know that some of the most popular designs right now have Roadster, Targa, and Coupe variants (Rodney, Vman, Xabier, etc.)

So possibilities include one single 'design' fullfilling more than one of the 'purposes' (using its 'variants'), or one unique 'design' for each 'purpose' (with room for more than one 'variant' of each design within its 'purpose'), or some mix of the two.

Its easy to confuse 'variant' with 'purpose', as some of them have the same descriptors. When Dave says there will be a Roadster 'purpose', and some of the 'designs' have 'Roadster' 'variants', its easy to think Roadster (variant) = Roadster (purpose). I'm not certain Dave sees it that way.

Maybe its better to think of the 3 purposes as 'Street', 'Track', and 'MPG'. Maybe the MPG will be Coupe only (or if it has any variants they won't be intended for MPG). Maybe the Track will be bare-bones only. But the Street, yes, intially Roadster only, but after that? I'm thinking Street Roadster and Street Targa and Street Coupe variants.

[BipDBo]

The answer is yes, there will be a coupe. Dave commented somewhere, specifically, that there will be 3 separate, purpose built chassis; roadster, track and coupe. The high mpg, VW deisel will probably be built with the coupe chaissis, but it has never, as far as I know, been stated or implied that the coupe chassis will not be made compatible and sold to also be built with the high performance subie boxer.

[bromikl]

The answer is yes, there will be a coupe. Dave commented somewhere, specifically, that there will be 3 separate, purpose built chassis; roadster, track and coupe. The high mpg, VW deisel will probably be built with the coupe chaissis, but it has never, as far as I know, been stated or implied that the coupe chassis will not be made compatible and sold to also be built with the high performance subie boxer.

BipDBo, did you confuse the chassis with the fiberglass body (purpose)? To my knowledge, all three purposes will share the same tube frame chassis. I suspect the track version will have a cage already welded on, but for the most part they will all be the same chassis. And yes, they will all accept a Boxer engine. The engine variants will come at a later date. If I were FFR, I'd make an adapter that bolts right into the boxer motor mounts, so one could install any engine variant into any body shape he/she desires.

[BipDBo]

BipDBo, did you confuse the chassis with the fiberglass body (purpose)? To my knowledge, all three purposes will share the same tube frame chassis. I suspect the track version will have a cage already welded on, but for the most part they will all be the same chassis. And yes, they will all accept a Boxer engine. The engine variants will come at a later date. If I were FFR, I'd make an adapter that bolts right into the boxer motor mounts, so one could install any engine variant into any body shape he/she desires.

No, I didn't confuse body with chassis. Dave stated, three distinct purpose built chassis. A coupe chassis will have a roof structure. As I see it, the only logical conclusion is that there will be different variant on a basic chassis design, but these variant will make 3 distinct chassis. For example the challenge car and 65 roadster have similar, but different chassis. A roadster chassis will have no roof structure and be open on the side for doors. The track chassis may not have doors, but rather more of a cage structure. You will probably have to climb in. Different body styles could be built for the differnt chassis types, but the body will need to be built specifically for the intended chassis. You would not want to, for example, throw a hard top coupe body onto a roadster chassis. That would not work well.

[Brian Z]

The car will launch as a roadster only.

[BipDBo]

This is what Dave said:
"I think Jim did a nice job of reviewing the running gear and current layout plans that seem to work best (and do affect body shape/design). That being said, we've been quite deliberate in the presentation of the project and the nodes at which we've asked for help. I really am confident that the car's basic chassis and running gear combos will deliver phenomenal performance and ease of build. I am also committed to the three purposed chassis, namely an affordable roadster (launched first), a track model, and a super sleek low CofD/frontal area coupe that is a build-it-yourself hyper-mpg car. Now that the dust is settling we have to decide, refine, deliver a body that will elicit a HoF response. I am tossing around several paths here on this MOST IMPORTANT part of the project. I am seriously open to any ideas you guys have on body design/shapes, but in the end I think I'll protect the team and take responsibility for the final call myself. "
It's post #74 in the thread, "Found some Spy Shots of 818 @ SEMA"

Rereading this, there cetainly is an implication that the coupe chassis will be designed for the VW diesel, but I reely doubt that they wouldn't make this chassis compatible with the Subie boxer and maybe even othe I4s.

[dbjr63]

personally i will look to buy the 818 when it offered in a couple model. i also hope to put a Ford Eco boost engine in it (250HP). that what i hope for.

[GPZ10]

Thanks guys. All of the information you've all given me makes it much easier to understand. I only have started reading this board about a week ago. Before that I just kept checking the website for updates, but that just wasn't satisfying my need for information. :-)

An Eco-coupe designed by Factory Five actually reminds me of a Discovery Channel special I saw a few years ago, called "Future Car". Part of the series covered the Opel Eco Speedster, linked below if you haven't heard of it:
http://www.flixxy.com/fuel-economy-performance-car.htm

Not sure If I'd want a turbo diesel model or the Suby to build quite yet... Maybe I'll just build both. :-P

With that said, if anyone designed gull wing doors into a coupe design like the Opel, they'd have my vote!

Again, thanks for the information guys. Looks like I'll have to keep waiting for definite word for now.

[kach22i]

.............. I hate roadsters with a passion, personally.
I have to ask...........why?

[wjfawb0]

He's probably like me and would dare to ask on a jeep forum for a fixed roof wrangler (hey, the started a thread and asked what we wanted). I hate the sun beating down on me anytime, and while I did like to ride around in my wrangler with the doors off, I never drove it with the roof off. I don't want to be seen or sun burned. That's why wearing full gear on a motorcycle seems like the only way to ever ride. I don't want to end up like Roethelsburger and bounce my face off a windshield.

[kach22i]

Second Question:
What part of the country (or world) do the open top haters live in?

[bromikl]

This is what Dave said: ... I am also committed to the three purposed chassis, namely an affordable roadster (launched first), a track model, and a super sleek low CofD/frontal area coupe that is a build-it-yourself hyper-mpg car.
It's post #74 in the thread, "Found some Spy Shots of 818 @ SEMA".
emphasis added

It seems a matter of semantics. To me, a chassis with extra stuff welded on is the same chassis.

I wouldn't be surprised if the targa bolted on and off, instantly converting to a roadster. These details are very much up in the air right now. The engine bay of every chassis will almost certainly accept any motor supported by FFR.


BipDBo, do you read this as, "...committed to the three purposed chassis (plural)..."
Or as I do; "...committed to the three purposed chassis (singular)..." I think if Dave had added a hyphen between "three" and "purposed," his post would have been clearer. If Dave did intend to say three distinct chassis-(es), than that would be new information to me.

[GPZ10]

I have to ask...........why?
You know, I'm really not sure why, to be honest... I think I may have a few reasons. One, the high school I went to had a bunch of rich girls driving the new convertible that mommy and daddy bought for them to class... I think I may sometimes equate roadsters with those convertibles and the loathing that I had towards all those girls who wanted a V-6 Mustang because it was "cute" and I wanted the Cobra model, but obviously couldn't afford it.
Two, I had a pretty bad accident when I was 18. Rolled my GMC Jimmy (big surprise) and broke my neck and back. Was in the hospital for about 4 months learning to walk again. I get a little nervous with no roof, justified or not. Maybe if I was in a roadster that had a rollcage, I'd get used to it but I dunno.


He's probably like me and would dare to ask on a jeep forum for a fixed roof wrangler (hey, the started a thread and asked what we wanted). I hate the sun beating down on me anytime, and while I did like to ride around in my wrangler with the doors off, I never drove it with the roof off. I don't want to be seen or sun burned. That's why wearing full gear on a motorcycle seems like the only way to ever ride. I don't want to end up like Roethelsburger and bounce my face off a windshield.

1. Yes, a fixed roof Wrangler. I'd be in love. Or just build the dang pickup with the turbo diesel already, am I right? In S. Dakota, Wranglers seem to go to the rich boy and yuppy crowd for the most part... I need something that stays halfway warm in the winter, so for now I keep my standard cab S-10. But I would love to see a Wrangler with a fixed roof... If they used both the 2 door and 4 door models, I'd want both.. A 2 doors model would remind me enough of a Discovery 90 that'd I'd have to have one. Then the 4 door model, if they gave it a tiny pickup bed on the back, I'd envision a miniature H-1 only more economical. And an "SUV" variant I guess you'd call it would somewhat remind me of the Merc G Wagon. All lust worthy, IMO.

And yes, when I ride bikes, I'm the same way you are. I always wear at least no open toed shoes, jeans, and a helmet. No reason to purposely take unnecessary chances. I've spent enough time in hospitals.

[GPZ10]

Second Question:
What part of the country (or world) do the open top haters live in?
Good point. I'm in S. Dakota, so open top means it's only about a 5 month car for here. Unless you're really dedicated. :-P

EDIT - That is, it's a 5 month car if you want to drive at night. I don't know about others from around here, but I think a roadster at night is just too cold most of the year around here. But my whole broken neck thing makes me touchy when it comes to temperature too, so others are probably more tolerant.

[mekeys]

In my younger days I drove an 52 Mg T-D for 5 years.In those days I was living in a low rent apartment,,Went out one morning to find a few knife slashes in the top.Never liked a convertible since..

Mel

[Oppenheimer]

Second Question:
What part of the country (or world) do the open top haters live in?

This open top hater lives in New England. But I think it has more to do with fair complexion than how cold it gets where I live. Wind in my hair, sun on my face? NOT. More like wind in my eyes and ears, sun blinding me. How are you supposed to drive at high levels of performance like that?

[Niburu]

This open top hater lives in New England. But I think it has more to do with fair complexion than how cold it gets where I live. Wind in my hair, sun on my face? NOT. More like wind in my eyes and ears, sun blinding me. How are you supposed to drive at high levels of performance like that?
Modern convertibles don't suffer from this much, I've driven my miata at 80mph with the top down and gotten no wind in my eyes, it's no a quiet experience by any stretch but it's not deafening.
Also they make these things called sun glasses to protect your eyes from too much sunshine, I hear there is a special cream you can apply to your skin that supposedly blocks some of those deadly sunshine rays.

I have on occasion been known to drive with the top down on snowy 20 degree nights too, it's fun watching the snow fly right over the car.

[treadstone]

I hope they either have a coupe model or a targa top for the roadster available soon after the model is released, because I live in Vancouver, Canada, and it rains so often here that a roadster is something like a 2-month car. For people in the Pacific Northwest, roadsters are hard to justify.

[kach22i]

How are you supposed to drive at high levels of performance like that?
I think it's a running joke that a baseball cap is standard equipment on a convertible.

I'll drive in October and November with a hat, gloves, scarf, sweater and leather jacket on over here in Michigan. To top it off, I have no heat, my heat exchangers were rusted though when I bought the car eight years ago and I've never felt motivated to change them. I don't see cold as a barrier, I lived six years without heat in my apartment (student years), the floors below me were heated, and heat rises.

There are times, even in Michigan when it's just too hot and sunny to drive with the top off. I put the targa top on or I just decide not to drive when it is super hot and sticky out (no A/C either).

For sunny days I dress like a Mexican or Arab, long sleeves of a white breathable cloth, and something covering my head.

I've always loved convertibles, there are many reasons why.

I'm just curious about the extreme on the other side which does not like them.

[skullandbones]

GPZ10,
If you can't be convinced to like a roadster, would you be open to the "hardtop" as a workaround. I have thought it would be a great way to satisfy two different crowds. Some roadsters look pretty good with hardtops. Of course if the targa was initiated then that would not be an issue but right now it may not be. Also, the design environment seems to be wide open at this point so I think someone might be open to work on such a side project. It would fit your timeframe and would really draw a lot more prospects in who just don't like the wind in their hair all the time. Just curious. It seems that would be much more doable than resorting to a completely different project (GTM). WEK.

[Xusia]

And yes, when I ride bikes, I'm the same way you are. I always wear at least no open toed shoes, jeans, and a helmet. No reason to purposely take unnecessary chances. I've spent enough time in hospitals.

PLEASE consider wearing better gear than that. From personal experience, you might as well be wearing nothing. Asphalt & the like absolutely shred denim, cotton, canvas, etc. Leather is best, but if you can't afford leather, purpose built textiles provide good protection too.


In my younger days I drove an 52 Mg T-D for 5 years.In those days I was living in a low rent apartment,,Went out one morning to find a few knife slashes in the top.Never liked a convertable since..

That's not the convertibles fault! LOL. Being serious for a moment, that really doesn't make a lot of sense. For instance, if you had a coupe and they keyed that, would now hate coupes? Bad people will find a way to damage anything if they want to...


How are you supposed to drive at high levels of performance like that?

Personally, I cut my hair short, used sun screen, and wore sunglasses. Sometimes I even wore a hat. Driving gloves (or any gloves) can help too. You could also wear a helmet. Wouldn't be a bad idea...


Modern convertibles don't suffer from this much, I've driven my miata at 80mph with the top down and gotten no wind in my eyes, it's no a quiet experience by any stretch but it's not deafening.
Also they make these things called sun glasses to protect your eyes from too much sunshine, I hear there is a special cream you can apply to your skin that supposedly blocks some of those deadly sunshine rays.

+1


I have on occasion been known to drive with the top down on snowy 20 degree nights too, it's fun watching the snow fly right over the car.


I think it's a running joke that a baseball cap is standard equipment on a convertible.

I'll drive in October and November with a hat, gloves, scarf, sweater and leather jacket on over here in Michigan. To top it off, I have no heat, my heat exchangers were rusted though when I bought the car eight years ago and I've never felt motivated to change them. I don't see cold as a barrier, I lived six years without heat in my apartment (student years), the floors below me were heated, and heat rises.

There are times, even in Michigan when it's just too hot and sunny to drive with the top off. I put the targa top on or I just decide not to drive when it is super hot and sticky out (no A/C either).

For sunny days I dress like a Mexican or Arab, long sleeves of a white breathable cloth, and something covering my head.

I was a die hard as well. If it wasn't raining, my top was down. Fortunately, my heater worked great, but I certainly was not above wearing warm clothing. The brisk air was actually quite refreshing!


I've always loved convertibles, there are many reasons why.

I've had 2 (both MGBs) and loved them both. I'm really looking forward to having a third (as long as there is at least an option for a weatherproof top).


I hope they either have a coupe model or a targa top for the roadster available soon after the model is released, because I live in Vancouver, Canada, and it rains so often here that a roadster is something like a 2-month car. For people in the Pacific Northwest, roadsters are hard to justify.

Exactly what I won't buy one that doesn't include a weatherproof top option of some kind (targa, soft top, hard top - I don't care; just something!). Hopefully the 818 top is better than is offered for the Roadster. That body design was never intended to have a top, so this isn't a criticism of FFR by any means. I just hope the 818 is designed with that in mind (at least as an option).

[GPZ10]

GPZ10,
If you can't be convinced to like a roadster, would you be open to the "hardtop" as a workaround. I have thought it would be a great way to satisfy two different crowds. Some roadsters look pretty good with hardtops. .... Just curious. It seems that would be much more doable than resorting to a completely different project (GTM). WEK.

Honestly? Most likely not. Most hardtops for roadsters that I see, I haven't liked at all. My case in point: The Miata Coupe.
http://www.miata.net/news/images/MiataCoupe2.jpg

After seeing that, I want personally nothing to do with the convertible Miata. At the same time, I never saw a coupe concept S2000, but still didn't like the hardtop option. I'm just not a convertible/roadster type guy, I guess.

[GPZ10]

EDIT - Double Post

[Niburu]

Honestly? No. Ever since I saw the Miata coupe, I had no desire to buy one with a hardtop. In addition, the S2000 hardtop never seemed attractive to me, even though there wasn't a coupe version that I know of. I've just never been the convertible/roadster kind of guy, I guess.

You may wanna take a serious look at the Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ then, it may be just what you're looking for.

[GPZ10]

You may wanna take a serious look at the Scion FR-S/Subaru BRZ then, it may be just what you're looking for.
Yeah, I've been following that since I saw the concept the first time on Jalopnik. I'm definitely interested in it, but I really want to compare it to a coupe version of this kit as well, hopefully. If this gets a coupe version, I can see advantages be weight, an Mid/Rear setup as opposed to a Front/Rear, and I get to build it myself meaning I get to specify exactly what components I want in it (interior, wheels, engine, etc.). From what I'm hearing about the Subieyota/Toyobaru they're only getting the 197 hp 1.6 liter... and possibly a turbocharged FA20... http://jalopnik.com/5865228/subaru-confirms-turbocharged-brz-engine-doesnt-confirm-turbocharged-brz

Which would make for a good choice. We'll just have to see when it hits market. I'd much rather build my own coupe, but again, we'll see what is what when it all goes up on the sale block.

[Psay]

I am not a roadster/convertible sort of person. It just doesn't appeal to me at all. My wife has a Merc SL and even on beautiful sunny days (which are rare in England) I insist she puts the roof up when we are travelling together, which is very rare in her car.

On the odd occassions I have travelled in it with the roof down, I must admit it is remarkably quiet and with the airscarfs it is not cold either, however, having an open top just doesn't seem right to me and after a mile or two I put the roof up and I feel much happier that way. I don't dislike them, they just aren't for me.

[Oppenheimer]

Also they make these things called sun glasses to protect your eyes from too much sunshine, I hear there is a special cream you can apply to your skin that supposedly blocks some of those deadly sunshine rays.

Yes, well I suppose with sunglasses, and a baseball cap to keep the light from getting around the frames, I could stand it, but then I'd be trying to keep the hat from blowing off the whole time. Plus I would just be enduring it, not enjoying it. The appeal of top down, open motoring is lost on me.

[PhyrraM]

From what I'm hearing about the Subieyota/Toyobaru they're only getting the 197 hp 1.6 liter... and possibly a turbocharged FA20... .

200HP, 150ft/lbs, 2.0 liter, normally aspirated. ~2700 pounds.

Good comparo for the 818 however. Build vs. buy and speed vs. safety are the primary descion makers for most folks, I would think. Both should handle like go-carts.

[el_jefe]

I hope they either have a coupe model or a targa top for the roadster available soon after the model is released, because I live in Vancouver, Canada, and it rains so often here that a roadster is something like a 2-month car. For people in the Pacific Northwest, roadsters are hard to justify.

This.

I've had Jeeps, bikes and other open top vehicles in the southwest, and it's great there. But up in the Pacific Northwest, a targa top is ideal. Off when it's nice, and on when it's not. A soft top doesn't quite cut it for me, to much noise, heat loss, and condensation.

[GPZ10]

200HP, 150ft/lbs, 2.0 liter, normally aspirated. ~2700 pounds.

Good comparo for the 818 however. Build vs. buy and speed vs. safety are the primary descion makers for most folks, I would think. Both should handle like go-carts.

I'm not sure speed vs. safety is anything i'll be comparing when I look at these two... What I'm trying to say is, the guys working at FFR are building this to be as safe as they can. After all, many of the people purchasing it are going to be using it on the track. If it wasn't a vehicle that could reasonably protect someone in a car accident, I doubt they'd be making the vehicle. maybe purist vs. creature comforts would be a better comparison?

[bobzdar]

I think it's a running joke that a baseball cap is standard equipment on a convertible.

I'll drive in October and November with a hat, gloves, scarf, sweater and leather jacket on over here in Michigan. To top it off, I have no heat, my heat exchangers were rusted though when I bought the car eight years ago and I've never felt motivated to change them. I don't see cold as a barrier, I lived six years without heat in my apartment (student years), the floors below me were heated, and heat rises.

There are times, even in Michigan when it's just too hot and sunny to drive with the top off. I put the targa top on or I just decide not to drive when it is super hot and sticky out (no A/C either).

For sunny days I dress like a Mexican or Arab, long sleeves of a white breathable cloth, and something covering my head.

I've always loved convertibles, there are many reasons why.

I'm just curious about the extreme on the other side which does not like them.

Convertibles are for playboys, coupes are for serious drivers. I will not buy a performance car that has no roof because I will not buy a performance car and not push it. I was lucky not to flip when I had an off in a convertible 911, will not push a car without a roof again. To me, there's no point buying a performance car I can't attempt to find the limit in, and I do not feel safe doing so without a roof.

Then there's the fact that a convertible model is either not as stiff or weighs more (or both) when compared to a fixed roof version of the same car, both of which hinder performance. They also usually don't look as nice (subjective).

Convertibles have their place as cruisers (see above playboy quote courtesy of Enzo), but as this is looking like a stripped down track weapon, a convertible with all of it's compromises is not an option for me.

[el_jefe]

Then there's the fact that a convertible model is either not as stiff or weighs more (or both) when compared to a fixed roof version of the same car, both of which hinder performance.

This is not a fact if the car is designed from the outset as a convertible, or if the body is not a structural component (as in this case).

The main advantage IMHO of a coupe for a track weapon is aero, and you are safer in the event of a rollover, as you mentioned. I tend to drive at speeds that the word "safety" can only be measured as comic relief, so it's all about the aero for me.

[Xusia]

Convertibles are for playboys, coupes are for serious drivers.

I understand YOUR preference for a coupe from a safety aspect (makes perfect sense), but the statement above is actually rather offensive. I'm a serious driver (and motorcycle rider - thats me in my avatar) and some of the best handling cars I've driven have been convertibles. A lot of race winning cars have been as well. Look no furer than the Cobra. And last time I checked, Formula One cars didn't have roofs.

[PhyrraM]

I'm not sure speed vs. safety is anything i'll be comparing when I look at these two... What I'm trying to say is, the guys working at FFR are building this to be as safe as they can. After all, many of the people purchasing it are going to be using it on the track. If it wasn't a vehicle that could reasonably protect someone in a car accident, I doubt they'd be making the vehicle. maybe purist vs. creature comforts would be a better comparison?

Track accidents have different parameters than street accidents. The 818 will not even be in the same ballpark as the safety of any new car for sale today when talking about on-the-road. That being said, safety is not on my list either. It has, however, been brought up a few times before. Defensive driving trumps all.

I agree, minimalistic vs. creature comforts would be a good comparitor. Although, even that could be put on a more level playing field with careful design to allow the builder the option of repurposing the Subaru HVAC (and dash?)

[MuddyRoverRob]

I LIKE convertibles, let's be straight about that.
However, since I live in the great white north (That means Canada) a pure roadster is simply impractical.
There is a guy just a couple blocks from me that built a cobra replica (I don't know which brand) which is hardly ever out of the garage.

I REALLY like the idea of a targa, it's the best of both worlds and allows something like an 818 to be an 8-ish month car.

My poor Golf GTI will continue to suffer through the snow... ;-)

[bobzdar]

I understand YOUR preference for a coupe from a safety aspect (makes perfect sense), but the statement above is actually rather offensive. I'm a serious driver (and motorcycle rider - thats me in my avatar) and some of the best handling cars I've driven have been convertibles. A lot of race winning cars have been as well. Look no furer than the Cobra. And last time I checked, Formula One cars didn't have roofs.

Sorry to offend you, but that's not my quote. Enzo Ferrari originally stated that (and yeah, he was a bit harsh but that's just how he was).

The Daytona coupe was a better car than the cobra, stiffer and more aerodynamic. Pretty much without exception, convertibles weigh more for the same stiffness as a fixed roof version of the same car. They also have poorer aero, even with the top up unless a hardtop. So, not purely for safety reasons, a convertible version of a car has lower performance given everything equal, and I am not aware of a single exception to that rule.

F1 has an open cockpit due to regulations, and this is not a single seater we're talking about.

I like convertible muscle cars, but then they (with a few exceptions) are not built to go around corners. The ones that were didn't go trans am or NASCAR racing with a convertible version.

If you're serious about going fast and there is a choice between a convertible version and hardtop version, you don't take the convertible. I think Enzo's statement was valid, though the 'playboy' portion of it is a bit harsh. It's more if your primary concern is going fast, you take the coupe. If you are willing to compromise speed for looks or having the wind in your hair, you go convertible or targa. I've had a couple of Jeeps and loved taking the top off, but then I wasn't trying to go fast around a corner in them (and indeed that would have been suicide). My performance cars are all hard tops and I passed on cheaper (and more common) versions of convertible or t-top cars to get them due to both stiffness and safety concerns. I have a motorcycle (vmax), but am increasingly reluctant to take it out on the road to where I'll probably sell it this spring. The concerns over idiot drivers, deer jumping out in front of me and the consequences of even a flat tire take the fun out of it for me.

[bobzdar]

Even with a car designed as a convertible, simply connecting the A pillars to the B pillars (or putting a cage in it if no b pillar) will add stiffness unless you don't know what you're doing.

[Brian Z]

The car will launch as a roadster only.

It will probably be a while after the car launches before there is any talk about doing a hard top. I'm just being realistic. Tops and windows are the hardest and most expenive parts to design. The target price for the kit makes having a top difficult and it would add months to the launch date to have a top.

Think basic like the Lotus 2-eleven or a mid engine super 7. Entry level kit at a good price with great performance!

Best regards,

[Xusia]

Bob, based on the comments above, it really sounds to me like you are talking about the difference between a track/race car and street car. On the street, the differences you are talking about (aero, weight, etc.) are so slight as to effectively not matter. In fact, the only time those things would really matter is during timed events, where tenths of a second count. On the street, I guarantee I can take a 30mph corner just as fast in a convertible 818 as I could in a coupe 818. For the nit pickers: I'm assuming identical chassis stiffness (even if that means the convertible weighs more), and at the speeds I'd traveling, aero doesn't matter because I would have more than enough HP to compensate.

Therefore, I contend I can be a serious driver on the street, even if I'm driving a convertible. Should I take my convertible to the tack, I'll just have to watch out for coupe 818s and GTMs! :D

[bobzdar]

I don't usually take corners fast on the street, so yeah, for a street car it wouldn't matter. However, I do take corners fast on a track - as fast as possible. I wouldn't buy a car like this for pure street driving, for me I don't know what the point would be. It would be dual purpose at best if not mostly track oriented. The question posed by George was why people don't like convertibles - for a performance vehicle, they are counterproductive, hence I don't like them. I do like them for Jeeps, cruising type vehicles etc.

Same reason I wouldn't consider building an FFR mkIV, but would (and have) considered a type 65 or GTM. I personally fail to understand the allure of a convertible high performance vehicle if you want to actually use that performance, and If you don't intend to explore the performance, why get a performance vehicle at all? They are cramped, don't ride well and usually get poor mileage, and I'm sure the 818 will be no different (with exception of the mileage). That's not to say they can't be liveable, but no matter what you do the 818 won't be as comfortable as a 3 series bmw or similar, so if not after the performance, why bother? I know the answer here, and it goes to the 'playboy' portion of the above quote. Some are more interested in the image and looking cool driving their car (that's fine, that's why we want it to look good), others in exploring the limits of the car. It's a matter of how much compromise in performance and safety you are willing to accept in a sports car to have a good looking or cool car and I draw the line at taking the roof off. That's not right or wrong, just where my line is.

If I want a convertible I'll get another Jeep or a '69 GTO or something similar. Nothing that I'd take anywhere near a racetrack.

[Oppenheimer]

+1 Bob.

I'll add, I think all that sun and wind (trying to blow off my sunglasses and hat that are trying to block the sun and wind) are distractions I'd care to do without when I'm trying to drive with performance in mind. Again, not knocking what others like, but the question why hate'n on convertibles?, and these are my reasons.

[Niburu]

+1 Bob.

I'll add, I think all that sun and wind (trying to blow off my sunglasses and hat that are trying to block the sun and wind) are distractions I'd care to do without when I'm trying to drive with performance in mind. Again, not knocking what others like, but the question why hate'n on convertibles?, and these are my reasons.
What wind?
Have you ever ridden in a MX-5, S2000, Boxster or Z4?
Have you guys not seen the vehicles at the track?

[Oppenheimer]

What wind?
Have you ever ridden in a MX-5, S2000, Boxster or Z4?
Have you guys not seen the vehicles at the track?

admittedly, no. If there is no wind, that is fine. But then, what are the advantages of driving around without a roof? I mean other than the whole Playboy thing which I think the Enzo quote (hadn't heard before) sums up nicely? If its not as bad as I'm imagining it, that I'm not enduring it, but can instead enjoy it, what is it that I'd be enjoying?

[kach22i]

What man doesn't like topless?;)

[Niburu]

admittedly, no. If there is no wind, that is fine. But then, what are the advantages of driving around without a roof?
no blind spots other than what the window frame obstructs
makes it pretty easy to drop in a prefabbed roll bar or cage - no assembly required
unlimited head room
vitamin D from sunshine
chix dig convertibles
now you have no excuse NOT to buy a pet giraffe. you know you want one…

[Xusia]

If you don't enjoy the inherent "freedom" that comes from open top motoring (or motorcycling, for that matter), or if the concept doesn't appeal to you just on principle, then it's probably pointless trying to extol it's virtues to you. You just don't "get it." And that's OK. I don't get sky diving, and my life is still rich...

Bob, I get what you are saying, and I think I understand. I would also say I don't think you really "get" people like me, who want a performance machine for the street. And like I said above, that's OK. I will say my desire for a convertible has nothing to do with anyone else (impressing them, being a playboy, etc.). It has only to do with my enjoyment of the car and driving. There are a lot of parallels here for me with motorcycling. I ride an ultra high performance sport bike. It ISN'T comfortable by any means. And yet, I still enjoy it immensely on the street - partly for the performance, partly for the freedom that comes from not being caged in. The same will be true of a high performance - even if uncomfortable - convertible. It's all about the enjoyment - the fun - and for those like me, lap times don't factor into that.

[Oppenheimer]

I have been riding high-performance motorcycles since 1986. Always wearing full gear. That I get.

I don't see it being pointless to try and extol the virtues of driving open top. Even if I don't end up being swayed, at least I'll know what people enjoy about it. That would be very valuable knowledge to me. For example, I would never ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Yet I know a lot of people do, and prefer it that way. Even insist on it that way. While I would not find that enjoyable, I can relate to why others would.

[Xusia]

It may be different for others, but for me, it's about not being caged in; about a sense of freedom and connecting with the environment (obviously I'm not talking about when you are at the track!). You can both see and hear more of what's going on in the environment. You aren't quite IN the environment, but it feels like it - and you are certainly more a part of the environment around you than when fully enclosed (even if a window is open). I love the smell of the fresh air (I live where that still exists), the feel of wind, and briskness of the morning air during a spirited country drive. It gives me a sense of serenity and happiness. It's just not the same in a fully enclosed vehicle (again, even if a window is open).

[thestigwins]

TARGA ftw, you get your freedom of the open road, I get my "I can still drive in the rain"

[Xusia]

WARNING: Smart Arse Comment Ahead!


TARGA ftw, you get your freedom of the open road, I get my "I can still drive in the rain"

Contrary to apparently popular belief, convertibles CAN be driven in the rain too (and even keep you dry). you just have to make sure to actually put the top UP!

[el_jefe]

Targa isn't the same as a vert. I wouldn't even consider a convertible soft top here in the PNW. Too wet, and a soft top is noisy at 150.

[Steve91T]

I love hard tops. I like the looks, the safety, and the aero of a hard top. I'm going to convert my T-top Camaro to a hard top soon. If FFR comes out with a convet. first, I may have to hold off for a hard top version.

The other thing is with a roadster, if you want to race it, you have to have a full cage, which makes any convert. look ugly.

[kitcarj]

For any of you with allergies that have never owned a convertible. That can cause a problem when you drive it to work with the top down.:(

[Xusia]

Targa isn't the same as a vert. I wouldn't even consider a convertible soft top here in the PNW. Too wet, and a soft top is noisy at 150.

I live in Oregon. Doesn't get much wetter than that...

P.S. I've owned 2 convertibles in Oregon: A '71 MGB and a '73 MGB. Both were old by the time I owned them (26 and 16 years old, respectively) and were in mediocre condition that is, not show cars). They were both daily drivers (the '71 for many years) and neither one ever leaked. True story!!

[el_jefe]

And how was the wind noise at over a 100? Oh wait. . .

[thestigwins]

the issue with the convertible top is also that they are ugly as hell. I don't want to ruin my beautiful car with some sort of soft top that I highly doubt will have a factory look to it.

I guess either way I will build this car, I need another hobby and I want something that I can autocross as well.

[Niburu]

I love hard tops. I like the looks, the safety, and the aero of a hard top. I'm going to convert my T-top Camaro to a hard top soon. If FFR comes out with a convet. first, I may have to hold off for a hard top version.

The other thing is with a roadster, if you want to race it, you have to have a full cage, which makes any convert. look ugly.

What about a roadster with an attachable hardtop like the Mazda Miata/MX-5, Honda S2000, Porsche Boxster, Toyota MR-S, or BMW Z3/Z4 all have available?
The Miata and S2000 even have aftermarket fastback hartops available.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t193/streetseen/ORG/SuperLapBattle/IMG_4982.jpg

[Xusia]

And how was the wind noise at over a 100? Oh wait. . .

ROFLMAO! Yeah, their top speed was about 80, and at that speed, win noise was tolerable. Hard to have a conversation, but then again, that's not what I wanted to do when driving at that speed. :)

[GPZ10]

The Miata and S2000 even have aftermarket fastback hartops available.


I personally don't think they look horrible, but I would still rather have a coupe. I don't think I'd buy anything and get a hardtop for it if there is a coupe version of a similar vehicle available. Again, that's just me though. :)

[OCCPete]

Second Question:
What part of the country (or world) do the open top haters live in?

In the world where I already have a roadster in the garage and want something I can drive without checking the weather report first.

Pete

[Tpa65cpe]

Gentelmen; This is for sure a personal choice! While I agree with what Xusia say's about being in the environment and I have had my fair share of Convert's I am leaning toward a coupe for the rain factor(live in FLA) don't be to hasty to rule out a convert for the track just look at Jeff keisler and his amazing Bugeye!!

[Niburu]

despite my defence of 'verts I too am hoping for a targa or coupe eventually
although possible pet giraffe ownership is hard to argue against

[OCCPete]

Am I missing something? You guys keep using the word "convertible" where FFR is using the word "roadster". Convertible = folding soft top, but it has a top. Roadster = ain't no top, none, nada, the inside of the car gets wet when it rains unless you pull over and put the car cover on it. I love my roadster, but if there is any chance of rain, I'm not going very far.

Is the initial offering a convertible or a roadster?

Pete

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, Roadster. But in discussing if you'd prefer an 818 Roadster or Coupe, etc, you naturally bring up existing cars you like, or don't. So for example someone might say they don't like convertibles, so they won't want an 818 Roadster, then a discussion ensues about what sort of crazy people don't like convertibles, etc.

[Draco-REX]

Since the 818 is a from-scratch design and not a replica, I would hope that FFR would make allowances for a rain-top on the roadster version. That way people will have the option of getting their car wet or risk a summer shower without having to worry about a 40-minute setup to get the top on.

[Xusia]

Am I missing something? You guys keep using the word "convertible" where FFR is using the word "roadster". Convertible = folding soft top, but it has a top. Roadster = ain't no top, none, nada, the inside of the car gets wet when it rains unless you pull over and put the car cover on it. I love my roadster, but if there is any chance of rain, I'm not going very far.

Is the initial offering a convertible or a roadster?

Pete

That is technically incorrect. As can be seen from the following sources:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/roadster
http://www.autobytel.com/convertibles/car-buying-guides/roadster-roadster-body-style-104312/
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/roadster

A roadster does NOT mean it does not have a top. It means lack of a PERMANENT top. Admittedly, Dave may not be using the actual definition when using the term, but I don't think I've seen any posts that would indicate no top would be available. Also, the "Roadster" kit has a top option. Point being, I would put my money on either the 818 roadster having a soft top option, OR the Coupe version having a targa option.

[Etos]

The problem with a roadster for me is practicality. I only have a 1 car garage and most of the time it's got a car on jack stands in there depending on what I am working on that week/month. It's unrealistic for me to have a completely open car outside of a garage. It will get crapped on, rained, sun worn, and etc.

I like the feeling of the top down, I really do. I have an s2000 and it's a great feeling having the top down cruising around. But at least I can bring that top up for when it rains. And I don't mean driving, I mean having it parked outside.

Also speaking of track time with a vert, I am not a fan. It feels completely unsafe even with roll bars in the back. The front windshield and the 2 pillars in the front literally has nothing to support it. There's also the issue with passing the broomstick rule that many organizations enforce. There's no advantage at all on a track with an open top. Hell Spec Miata regulations REQUIRE a hard top be put on to compete in it.

[bromikl]

Maybe a removable top won't be available immediately, but I expect it will be available eventually for the 818 Roadster. Wide demand for a top inspired FFR to retrofit one for their other Roadster. As they are designing the 818 Roadster body, I'm sure FFR is also considering how a removable top could be incorporated.

Worst case - an aftermarket design will crop up.

[BipDBo]

...OR the Coupe version having a targa option.

The difference between a coupe and targa is huge. Going targa requires a different chassis design. They could make a targa from the roadster chassis if its stiff enough.

Personally, I think the best design would be a coupe/targa hybrid; a chassis with tube steel extending forward from the roll bar, overhead to the windshield forming a cage structure. Everything typical of a coupe, but with a removable roof top. Removing the top wouldn't remove the structure overhead, just the skin of the roof. It wouldn't be completely open, but it would make for a stiffer, lighter, safer car. Maybe even the windshield could be removable for further weight reduction for track day.

[armstrom]

I agree with Xusia... In the automotive industry "roadster" does not mean NO top. Generally roadsters refer to sporty, 2-seat convertibles. There are MANY cars today marketed as "roadsters" (MX5 Miata, BMW Z4, Porsche Boxter, Mercedes SLK, Tesla Roadster, Audi TT, etc...) All of these cars are referred to as "roadsters" by the manufacturers either in marketing materials or in the name of the car itself. All of them come with tops (some even have hard tops!). There are some exceptions of course... I can't find anywhere that GM refers to the corvette convertible as a "roadster" and I'm sure if I search hard enough I could find more, but I think it's safe to say for all intents and purposes roadster is synonymous with convertible.

So... perhaps what we need is clarification from FFR.. what do THEY mean when they say "roadster"?

I'm in the same boat.. I would REALLY need to have SOME kind of option for a top on the car before I would consider buying it. Now, that doesn't mean FFR has to provide a roof with the kit or as an optional upgrade. I would be more than happy to design and build my own top. However, in order to do that the body design really needs to be conducive to accepting a top without serious engineering. I have posted this before but I REALLY like the simple design of the top for the Porsche Boxster Spyder... It is not much more complex than a bikini top on a Jeep, but it gets the job done in a pinch which is all I need. Here's a video showing the removal of said top: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny8qcnhrkBs Granted, the porsche top is over engineered for what it is... but you can see the simplicity of the overall design. Something as simple as a piece of canvas that fits into a groove on the top of the windshield frame and is stretched over a removable or fixed rear hoop and tensioned by two anchor straps to the rear deck and you're done. Maybe a set of clear plastic "windows" for the doors and rear that are attached by zippers or velcro....

-Matt

[Xusia]

That is a really cool design. It's a bit manual, but I like the fact that it takes up almost no space. I also like the separate piece for the window. That way you can replace just that piece - rather than the whole top - if the plastic window clouds up.

[BipDBo]

I agree with Xusia... In the automotive industry "roadster" does not mean NO top. Generally roadsters refer to sporty, 2-seat convertibles. There are MANY cars today marketed as "roadsters" (MX5 Miata, BMW Z4, Porsche Boxter, Mercedes SLK, Tesla Roadster, Audi TT, etc...) -Matt

Technically speaking, I think you're right. Convertibles are a sub-category under the term, "roadster." The conventional auto industry doesn't sell cars without tops, generally speaking. Roadster has a nice ring to it, so it's used for marketing interchangeable with "convertible." The kit car industry is a bit different. It sells cars without tops because tops are difficult and kit cars don't need to be practical. I think that in the kit car world, the terms roadster and convertible are not so interchangeable, and the term roadster is more likely describing a car with no top at all. Personally, I would not buy a car without a top of some kind.

+1 for that video post. The bikini top for the Boxster you posted is a perfect application, IMO. I've mentioned a couple of times that a Jeep like roof would work well but that video shows it on a Porsche so the idea sells a it better. Compared to a typical convertible top, this design is more simple, cheaper, takes less room, and weighs less. It could also be stretched over either a coupe or roadster chassis with no change in design.

[OCCPete]

In the kit car world, "convertible" and "roadster" are NOT equivalent words. Yes, FFR sells a soft top for it's 427 roadster, but (as the original) it takes about 15 minutes to install, if you put it in the trunk that's all you're putting in there, it leaks, and there's no roll-up windows. "Convertible" implies an integrated, easily employed and stowed top that will actually keep you dry. There is a huge difference between the two.

I'm following the 818 as I'm quite interested in it IF I could use it as a daily driver. A "roadster" in the kit meaning isn't going to work for me.

Pete

[Draco-REX]

I'm following the 818 as I'm quite interested in it IF I could use it as a daily driver. A "roadster" in the kit meaning isn't going to work for me.

Pete

The initial launch will be a roadster. Dave has already stated that he wants to release an inexpensive roadster first. But he's also said he wants to follow it with track and coupe versions. So a coupe is coming.

I think what a lot of people are hoping for, myself included, is that Dave chooses a design for the roadster that has an optional hard top. Check out RodneyO's 3d viewer for a great way to accomplish this. This would satisfy both camps.

[RM1SepEx]

I think everyone should own/drive something with an open top, its part of my life philosophy. Life's challenges have helped me to set my priorities towards living and experiencing life, an incurable, disabling disease does that to you... :-)

A motorcycle is tops, a convertible is a bit less desireable but great. I have currently 4 convertibles and 9 motorcycles
its the open "space" that makes it so nice, you commune with the environment. I'm in Maine so I'm driving rural roads, curvy shorelines, mountain passes. I'm talking the street, you race you need a safety cage, unless its a racing kart and I have 3 of them. Hell I had the top down in my winter beater Miata yesterday! Top down, BMW hat, leather coat, heat at max... beautiful...


Dave stated that one of the major problems with the Spyder that they didn't do a top.
He told me they worked with a company that would do a top for the 818 roadster too, a no top car would limit sales too much.
When that will happen, who knows

I'm hoping that the roadster ends up based on Xabier's design as the hoop behind the seats serves two purposes...

1 a cover for the roll bar shown on the prototype frame
2 it makes it very easy for a rudimentary soft top using vinyl

I'm not looking for perfectly weather tight, I want to get 99% dry, quickly in an emergency, she'd sleep in a garage.

a 15 minute top won't be good enough

[Niburu]

Dave stated that one of the major problems with the Spyder that they didn't do a top.
He told me they worked with a company that would do a top for the 818 roadster too,


as long as it's not Chaser Aero, their service is terrible



I'm hoping that the roadster ends up based on Xabier's design as the hoop behind the seats serves two purposes;
1) a cover for the roll bar shown on the prototype frame
2) it makes it very easy for a rudimentary soft top using vinyl

I'm not looking for perfectly weather tight, I want to get 99% dry, quickly in an emergency, she'd sleep in a garage.
a 15 minute top won't be good enough

My exact thought too with Xabiers design, if the targa-ish top is designed like the one for my 83 911 Targa, it'll take you less than 5 minutes to remove from the bonnet area, unfold, install, and lock down.

[Oppenheimer]

I'm hoping that the roadster ends up based on Xabier's design as the hoop behind the seats serves two purposes...

1 ....
2 it makes it very easy for a rudimentary soft top using vinyl


If they do this (hoping very much they do), it should also be easy to build a hard panel option to fill the Targa space. Even if the hard panel is not stowable, the foldable/rollable vinyl soft top panel certainly would be. Best of all worlds. You can do open top, carrying vinyl top in case of weather. You can buy the optional hard panel for times of year you won't be driving open top. They could also easily make a version where the hard panel was molded in, to create a true Coupe (for those interested in better sealing, a Coupe wouldn't add extra stiffness in this application).

I like the Xabier, a lot. But whichever design is chosen, I'd like to see this concept used. I think a lot of the designs could work with this. Xabier, Rodney, Vman, even SW1 probably.

[OCCPete]

The initial launch will be a roadster. Dave has already stated that he wants to release an inexpensive roadster first. But he's also said he wants to follow it with track and coupe versions. So a coupe is coming.

I think what a lot of people are hoping for, myself included, is that Dave chooses a design for the roadster that has an optional hard top. Check out RodneyO's 3d viewer for a great way to accomplish this. This would satisfy both camps.

An optional hardtop would be good.

For reference, here's FFRs instructional videos on installing the soft top on the 427 roadster. To be clear, I am in no way criticizing FFR's soft top for the 427 roadster, as the other company's tops take about the same amount of effort to install, which is the main reason I don't have one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwvtEutfGqY&list=UU0ssR2R6_54NRc8hT6XeP8w&index=86&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnL-JRQ2oXg&list=UU0ssR2R6_54NRc8hT6XeP8w&index=85&feature=plcp

[Draco-REX]

My thinking is that the Roadster design is pretty much set by the car it is based on, so allowances for tops and such can be difficult. But since the 818 is a clean sheet design, FFR can build in allowances to make that process easier. I foresee a canvas top that, while not all-weather by any stretch of the imagination, can be expanded and snapped into place quickly for summer showers.

That, and the optional hard-top would make the 818 appeal to almost every buyer.

[Xusia]

...You can do open top, carrying vinyl top in case of weather. You can buy the optional hard panel for times of year you won't be driving open top.

This kind of assumes roll up windows as well, which I seriously hope they do. Not just for weather (although that would be MY primary reason), but also for a quieter and less windy open top ride (when/if you want that sort of thing!).

[GPZ10]

My thinking is that the Roadster design is pretty much set by the car it is based on, so allowances for tops and such can be difficult. But since the 818 is a clean sheet design, FFR can build in allowances to make that process easier. I foresee a canvas top that, while not all-weather by any stretch of the imagination, can be expanded and snapped into place quickly for summer showers.

That, and the optional hard-top would make the 818 appeal to almost every buyer.

An optional hardtop isn't a coupe, which is what myself and from what I can tell many others commenting in this thread are wanting. Obviously, no design can ever appeal to everyone, and I hate adding any 'requirements' i have of my own for wanting to purchase one to prevent the death by committee of a project, but a coupe is make or break for me.

[Xusia]

I think everyone has a "make or break" list. Weatherization [on a streetable variant] is the sole item on mine. Even though I'd prefer a convertible or a targa, I'd have no problem owning a coupe if that was the only variant that offered full weatherization. And I wouldn't even be upset about it... :D

[GPZ10]

I think everyone has a "make or break" list. Weatherization [on a streetable variant] is the sole item on mine. Even though I'd prefer a convertible or a targa, I'd have no problem owning a coupe if that was the only variant that offered full weatherization. And I wouldn't even be upset about it... :D

Fair enough. I guess full coupe is the only want on my list. Diesel or boxer engine, I'd be happy with either (you can make some diesels pretty quick from what I've read :) ). I have no technical knowledge of the 5MT vs. 6MT, so I don't have a clue what they're not liking about the Suby 5 speed. I just hope all the "I want this!" threads (including this one that I've made) don't turn this car design into a camel.

[Xusia]

Fair enough. I guess full coupe is the only want on my list. Diesel or boxer engine, I'd be happy with either (you can make some diesels pretty quick from what I've read :) ). I have no technical knowledge of the 5MT vs. 6MT, so I don't have a clue what they're not liking about the Suby 5 speed.

I'm still learning about all things Subaru myself, but the gist of it seems to be strength and gear ratios (advantage 6mt) vs. size and weight (advantage 5mt). Also of concern is the electronics on the 6mt - they are designed for AWD. I haven't seen any posting as to how to adapt it to 2WD drive (I assume it's possible). For my application (daily driver; hp goal of about 300whp), I don't see any advantage (based on what I've read here) to the 6mt, so given the added size, weight, and complexity that comes with the 6mt, my plan is to go with the 5mt.


I just hope all the "I want this!" threads (including this one that I've made) don't turn this car design into a camel.

I seriously doubt Dave would let that happen.

[PhyrraM]

Also of concern is the electronics on the 6mt - they are designed for AWD. I haven't seen any posting as to how to adapt it to 2WD drive

When the center differential is removed/bypassed for the 2WD conversion, the electronics are nullified and can be removed.

The FWD differential (RWD in the 818), is a passive non-electronic unit in all 6 speeds and requires no special attention.

[vozproto]

That brings up an interesting question -

I understand the initial launch is set to be the roadster.
I guess that means no side windows?

[MuddyRoverRob]

Earlier in the thread I posted saying a want a "Targa" but really I just want something weatherproof-ish with a heater!
I'd prefer a removable (folding would be fine) roof, but a decent sized sunroof in a coupe might 'cut it' as well.

In my case I'm looking for a street driven fun yet practical-ish toy.
In this case practical is defined as still OK if it's cool or lightly raining outside and room for a weekends worth of stuff for "hotel camping".
No winter expectations, it'll be tucked into the garage for that time.

Power wise I'm in the "stick with the stock WRX powertrain" crowd, that should make it crazy quick (by street car standards) and still be reliable. It's fun to hear the 'crazy' power guys talking about the cool toys, but in practice I personally won't go that way.
No judgement is being made here, I ENJOY living vicariously through their borderline crazy-good ideas! :-D

The wife's 02 impreza wagon has 260000km on it with basically nothing done to it (outside of belts, wires and plugs)
It's not a donor, it'll be handed down to the kid.

[Evan78]

That brings up an interesting question -

I understand the initial launch is set to be the roadster.
I guess that means no side windows?

Doesn't look that way if Brian Z (of FFR) is in the loop. His statements from earlier in this thread (emphasis mine):


The car will launch as a roadster only.


It will probably be a while after the car launches before there is any talk about doing a hard top. I'm just being realistic. Tops and windows are the hardest and most expenive parts to design. The target price for the kit makes having a top difficult and it would add months to the launch date to have a top.

Think basic like the Lotus 2-eleven or a mid engine super 7. Entry level kit at a good price with great performance!

Best regards,

Here's the Lotus 2-eleven for those not familiar with it:
6814

I own a Miata and am familiar with the benefits of having windows with the top down, but the benefits of having windows without a top are probably far outweighed by the costs in money, time, etc.

[Xusia]

Probably. I'll just put on my sad face and wait for one of the other variants that has roll up windows and a top.

[el_jefe]

On the plus side, with all the talk of multiple body panels and interchangeable bodies, it's very possible that you could start with a roadster, then change out the doors and upper body panels to a coupe or targa as parts become available.

[MuddyRoverRob]

On the plus side, with all the talk of multiple body panels and interchangeable bodies, it's very possible that you could start with a roadster, then change out the doors and upper body panels to a coupe or targa as parts become available.

That is an interesting idea!