Total novice here...need recommendations on which engine to install [Archive]

Ruffrider_Matt

10-05-2022, 11:31 AM

I've been contemplating the last couple months about taking the plunge and ordering a coupe 65 complete kit for my 9 year old son and I to work on together, and I think I am nearly ready to place my order. I'm so excited/nervous! I am totally new to building cars so I probably don't know what I am getting into haha. At least it will keep both of us busy.

Since I am so new to this, I apologize in advance for asking any basic questions. I guess we all have to start somewhere :)

I still haven't decided what engine we should install. As I was configuring my order online, I noticed that there are 3 engine/transmission mount packages (302/351W, 4.6/5.0L Coyote, and LS). I was originally thinking of putting a Blueprint 347 or 427 in because of the partnership with FF, but now I'm unclear if that would require customized fabrication on my end to get it mounted in the frame. Maybe a Coyote is the better option for me because it seems like it would be more of a drop in, and it seems like a lot of other folks have installed Coyotes in their coupes and love them.

If Coyote is the way to go, are there any strong recommendations for where to purchase a engine+transmission package? Based on my limited research, it looks like Forte and Summit are good options. For the transmission, I'm probably going to go with a TKX.

I would love to get input from the experts here. Keep in mind that my son and I are total noobies to this, so if possible, i'm trying to minimize the amount of custom fabrication work that would be needed

danmas

10-05-2022, 11:40 AM

I am a newbie as well. I ordered a 427 from blueprint with my markIV. Expect it to arrive in September of 23. Responding so I can monitor the thread.

Its exciting and terrifying all at the same time, isn't it?

Jeff Kleiner

10-05-2022, 11:41 AM

The Blueprint 347 or 427 will drop right in (347 is derived from the 302 and the 427 is derived from the 351). No customization or fabrication required.

Jeff

Papa

10-05-2022, 11:52 AM

Yep, like Jeff said above. If you go 347, assume 302 for everything in the FFR selections (engine mounts, headers. Drive shaft, etc.). If you do a 351 based 427, then use the 351 selections. Likewise for the Coyote, which adds a few more things to your list that FFR provides. I'm not sure what FFR supplies for an LS other than mounts.

Dave

Ruffrider_Matt

10-05-2022, 12:52 PM

Thank you for all of the input! I can tell that this is going to be a constant learning process for me.

Now I'm leaning more towards Blueprint 427 :)

FracAG1980

10-05-2022, 01:30 PM

Thank you for all of the input! I can tell that this is going to be a constant learning process for me.

Now I'm leaning more towards Blueprint 427 :)

I highly recommend you watch the video from Factory Five on engine selection. These cars are very lightweight and horsepower goes a long way. I hope I attached the link correctly.

https://youtu.be/fpjwKZEgzj8

rthomas98

10-05-2022, 01:46 PM

Thank you for all of the input! I can tell that this is going to be a constant learning process for me.

Now I'm leaning more towards Blueprint 427 :)

Like others have said be careful as there have been some horror stories of people building the car and then too scared to drive it. I went with a Base blueprint 302 making 255 hp in my roadster and it is still very spicy to drive. On a side note I built the car with my 8 yr old daughter. Wouldn't trade that experience for anything. So you have some fun ahead for you.

Al_C

10-05-2022, 02:16 PM

I'll add a vote for a coyote. In my mind, the decision was if I wanted old or new technology. I opted for new. I think the hardest part for me (and I was inexperienced as well) was the wiring. I think the documentation is way better now than it was in 2016. In my mind, what is nice about the coyote is that it can be mild mannered until you don't want it to be.

All that said, whatever engine you choose, I strongly recommend EFI.

Chopper

10-05-2022, 02:21 PM

I like Windsor based motors, simple design that's easy to service and smaller heads make it easier to work around. There are very good aftermarket EFI systems for them now; my Edelbrock Pro-flo4 has been great.

Everybody has their own preferences, no right or wrong. Part of it also has to do with how you want it to drive. Coyote will drive more like a modern car. Windsor (or similar) will have a physical throttle linkage.

Skuzzy

10-05-2022, 03:33 PM

I have been driving hot rods for over 50 years. Today, I would not consider a carbureted engine. While being very simple, they were never designed to run with the blended fuels we have today. They can be made to work pretty well, but there are better options now.

EFI is a better option today. The best EFI option, in my opinion, is going to sit on the Coyote. Backed with a T56 and 3:55 gears you will have all the power you can handle, an easy to drive motor, which is also pretty fuel efficient. Very reliable and if you want more power, it makes a great base to start with. This is an engine you can drive as long as you want, and it will always answer the call.

Windsor based engines are very reliable as well, but the EFI systems are not as well fleeced out as the one for the Coyote. They idle rougher, given the same power as the Coyote. They can be a handful to drive slow, if you put any high performance cam in them. Once on the road, they as good as any other choice. They just have a narrower power band than the Coyote. The Windsor is also easier to work on.

I like the Coyote simply due to the flexibility. It is easier to make the Coyote match your driving style and requirements. Windsors take more effort to make them match what you want, and you can, but there is little leeway after you are done. Not so with a Coyote.

There are pros and cons with both choices. I do not consider the LS3 as a choice. There is no doubt it is a great engine, but when it comes to resale value, you will find the other choices will bring more attention and probably a more favorable resale price. The Coyote also wins this one as well.

This is just my opinion. I hope it helps.

facultyofmusic

10-05-2022, 05:10 PM

Just throwing another factor out there: Take a look at pictures of roadster engine bays. Do you like the look of a classic engine in there? or are you okay with the messy jumbo of wires? If you get a coyote crate motor at this time you're most likely getting a gen3 coyote. That thing is impossible to dress-up or cover up nicely. Many on this forum have tried. I love the coyote for all the above discussed reasons, but MAN does it look like a wire nest in there.

edwardb

10-05-2022, 05:38 PM

Not sure it's clear from the responses you've received, but (1) The chassis isn't any different for all the engines you've suggested or others have recommended. Factory Five welds in a universal mount that will work with any of these engines. (2) The difference is the mount that bolts to the engine itself. For the Ford engines, various flavors of Energy Suspension mounts are typically used, which in turn bolt to the chassis mounts. For the LS, Factory Five fabricates an LS mount kit that also bolts to the same mount. Although you said you weren't going to use an LS. Don't feel like you have to make a final decision about the engine in order to place your order. Order what you think it might be. But you'll have time to change your mind if you decide to. Basically true for most anything on your order.

I've had pretty much all the engines listed and love the Coyote in my Coupe. The advantages have already been listed. Agreed they don't look like a "traditional" engine if that's what you're looking for. But I take exception that it's impossible to make them look good. :rolleyes: My Coupe goes to a lot of shows and literally no one has ever said it has too many wires or whatever. Most are cool with the idea of a modern engine in a classic body. Kind of a trend in the hobby actually. How it runs and drives is a huge bonus. The Coupe has plenty of room for a T56, which I also really like. Don't rule that out. Lots of info and pictures in my Coupe build thread linked below in my sig line.

drewr

10-05-2022, 06:05 PM

I agree with everything said above, but will give you one more viewpoint. You're obviously picking the coupe for a reason. If you want to build a modern sports car with a vintage vibe, EFI Coyote is the way to go. If you are a racing aficionado or are seriously besotted with Shelby racing history, you really must consider a small block Ford. The 289/302 block is the raison d'etre for the Coupe.

Most guys on this forum are Coyote guys. I get it. I have a Mustang. Its a great engine. But when I dream about my Coupe, I dream about a roaring SBF.

Full disclosure, I'm building a Type 65 Coupe with a 347 stroker I built. I haven't had my first start yet, so maybe I'll be crying about my hard to tune carburetor. Right, now, I'm having a lot of fun.

The whole thing is a big project. Figure out what motivates you, and you'll be happy.

Papa

10-05-2022, 06:35 PM

I finally pulled the trigger to get the look I was after. I live in Colorado and most drives can span 4-5000 foot elevation change, so EFI was a "must have" for me. I really like the drivability of my recent upgrade once a pro tuned it. I have a BluePrint 347 with Inglese 8-stack managed by a Holley Terminator X computer.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167698&d=1654456326

JohnK

10-05-2022, 06:42 PM

All the salient points have been covered, so I'll just throw this out there... if money is no object, you can have the best of all worlds, i.e., a Roush Coyote with 8-stack injection for that "period correct"(ish) look. :cool: Just bring a wheelbarrow full of cash.

https://www.roushperformance.com/engines/50l-coyote-ir.html

173385

Rsnake

10-05-2022, 07:46 PM

Hello Matt,
I see you are in the South Bay and not too far from me. I have a type 65 with a coyote and my good friend has one with a 302 old school engine. We get together all the time and can give you rides in both to see which one you prefer. He's in San Mateo and I am in Half Moon Bay. Let me know.
Thanks
Greg

JohnK

10-05-2022, 07:50 PM

I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes. Just noticed that you're in Los Gatos. So am I. I'm building a roadster vs. a coupe, but but you're welcome to come by any time you want to chat, have a beer, borrow any tools you need, etc.

-John

Alan_C

10-05-2022, 08:24 PM

FWIW, I would go with the 347 and add stack injection for that bling. You don't need the power of a 427 in one of these cars, although you may want it. I built a MK4 with a 4.6L DOHC engine, Tremec 5-speed and 3.55 rear axle ratio. It produced 299 HP and 320 FTLB of torque at the rear wheels. That was enough to get a 0-60 time of just over 4 seconds. A car with a Coyote would likely be a half second faster. You have to remember these cars are light and more torque serves to break the tires loose faster. If you want a good driver, no need to go crazy on the HP and torque. I expect to get torched by the BB guys, but my opinion. Just look at the combo that Papa put together for his roadster. The same setup would look amazing under the hood of a Coupe.

DIBaledo

10-06-2022, 04:45 AM

Or you could go with something like this... Mike Forte built this Aluminator A52XS for my Roadster. I hope to start building in November. It has plenty of power, but being based on a coyote, it should be quite drivable and reliable.

James Morse

10-06-2022, 10:40 AM

I've been thinking about this for a couple years and like probably happens when choosing a color for the body, I've been all over the place. My gut feel at this point is, 427 is very cool. 347 also cool. LS nice, and seem to tend cheaper, but there's not as many built so not as much guidance for potential problems, also, as mentioned, the resale issue. Base 302 is plenty of engine for the car, when you do weight/HP comparisons to what an equivalent HP engine would be in a "regular" car then look at the weight of the coupe, it's obvious there's no power issue even with a 302 and I tend to think it would be much more user-friendly for those of us who aren't headed to the racetrack (except maybe for the drive-around). Plus base engine is going to be tons cheaper, of course it depends what you do to it, but I'm talking just plain old 302, I think it would be fine. And after all this where I -probably- am headed is coyote for reasons already mentioned and that's an engine there are tons of them around and they are expected to have some longevity. All the bugs as to installing them to the coupe are worked out. Plus as the new gen comes out they will only get cheaper (I think). I just have to think a production street engine is going to be more driveable and more reliable.

But of course it depends what do you want to do with the car and from what I understand they will be loud no matter what you do for sound deadening or side pipes or anything. So that would speak to a smaller more docile engine, but if I understand what I read, the coyote is perfectly manageable relative to a lot of other options that have that much available power. I want something I can drive for an afternoon and after it's done and sorted I don't want to be tweaking stuff all the time, I just want to use it.

As to trans, T56, almost without a doubt. Although, I'd love to see someone fit a 6-speed auto in there, I imagine it could be done somehow but probably requires some changes or might be just plain too big. Auto trans would be a real nice cruiser, but I don't see many people doing it. In fact if anyone has done it, I'd like to hear how it worked out (either 4 or 6 speed).

Here's one of my favs for sound. Hans Auer, bored and stroked 351W with 427 CU. Non-R coupe. When I watch it, it makes me want that. Good thing I don't have to decide today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK31yzISTR0

facultyofmusic

10-06-2022, 11:49 AM

Hey you're in Los Gatos! Thanks Greg and John for pointing it out! There's actually a factory five meetup this weekend at Alice's restaurant. I don't know if I'll make it, but I know there will be a few coupes there! Why not stop by and take a look? Maybe I'll see you there in person too! Here's the related forum thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?44178-Monthly-Factory-Five-Get-together-next-Saturday&p=505496#post505496

Ruffrider_Matt

10-06-2022, 05:47 PM

Wow you have all been so helpful! There are so many different things to consider. Now I'm maybe leaning back to a Coyote. Ahh I can't make up my mind!

I'm definitely going to try to make it out to Alice's restaurant this Saturday. Maybe I'll be able to convince my wife and kids to come as well :)

FF33rod

10-06-2022, 07:06 PM

if you think choosing an engine is tough, wait until you try to decide on a color..... ;)

Have fun!
Steve

GoDadGo

10-06-2022, 07:40 PM

Since Factory Five supports the short and tall deck SB Fords along with the Ford Coyote and GM LS3, you can't go wrong with any of those choices. The big issue is do you want to go Old School, New School or Join Forces With The Dark Side.

To me the LS3 is your best bang for the buck with several horse power options, but its not about me its about you. Remember that you are building your dream, no-one else's. With that said, plan your dream car and build that dream car.

https://paceperformance.com/p-29005-ls3-crate-engines.html

Good Luck!

Fman

10-07-2022, 12:07 AM

I was on the fence between a 347, 427 and Coyote... all great options.

I ended up with a Dart 427 in my roadster (built by a local engine builder), had quite a few people tell me they have way too much power and are not fun to drive.... definitely has not been my experience, after 4200 miles now would not consider going any other way. The sound, feel, idle, and power are what makes driving the car a fun experience every time I turn the key. I am running the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 EFI which has been spot on to this point.

Good luck with your decision, lots of options for you out there.

Yellville

10-17-2022, 04:30 PM

I am going with the Gen 3 Coyote in my Gen 3 Coupe. I love the sound of the big blocks but the Coyote seems like the most reliable option. I'm using the Tremec TKX tranny, which is the new and improved TKO. I should be installing it in the next week or two.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Tq3qNrJ9a44VxKxb9

UpNorth

10-19-2022, 01:17 PM

Matt,

I was in your position. Pencil pusher by trade with no experience whatsoever.
Have you taught about going to the build school? i did it! And it's awesome!
I went the Blue Print way with a fuel injected 347. I think it's the "easiect" way from my perspective.
Have fun!

BluePrintEngines

10-19-2022, 02:53 PM

Hello,

This is Jose from Blueprint Engines,

BluePrint Engines is the preferred drivetrain manufacturer of Factory Five Racing. We have worked extensively with FFR to ensure our engine transmission packages fit correctly and connect seamlessly with their kit. We provide the highest horsepower and longest warranty at the most affordable price.

I’d love to discuss either an engine/transmission combo, or even just an engine with you. My office number is 308.236.1050 ext. 117, and you’re welcome to call to discuss any of our offerings.

A few bullet points about BluePrint Engines:

Peace of Mind
• Factory Five, Summit Racing, JEGS, Speedway Motors. These are our partners, we’ve earned their trust by providing quality products, great service at an affordable price.
• Dyno Tested. Your engine will be dyno tested prior to shipping, validating both performance and reliability. You will receive the dyno results.
• 30 Month 50,000-mile warranty. Better than anyone else.
• Free Tech Support. Have a question, we want to help you.

Expedite your Build
• Our packages are available as turnkey...transmission, bellhousing preassembled to the engine and delivered to your door.
• Eliminates a LOT of time spent on forums, thumbing through catalogs or standing in line at the parts store; not to mention time and frustration.

Cost Effective
• Our value is in giving you more for your dollar than anyone else, a convenient product, peace of mind and reliable horsepower.
• Builds using crate engines retain a higher value than those with donor engines.

Here’s a video explaining the partnership between Factory Five and BluePrint Engines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZh-O9Q76JI&t=103s

Links to our websites
www.FactoryFiveEngines.com
www.BluePrintEngines.com

I look forward to your response and answering any questions that you have.

Jose Zarraga
BluePrint Engines
Technical and Customer Support
2915 Marshall Ave
Kearney, NE 68847
1.800.483.4263 Ext. 1017

marshallmosty

11-22-2022, 03:46 PM

I ended up going with a Blueprint 408. Holley Sniper EFI with the Blueprint front accessory drive.
Since it wasn't one of the "FF" engines, I had to get a different oil pan (Kevko PN: F502-351W Oil Pan, F202-1RR Pickup, and PN: K128 dip stick).
Speedway Motors also had a package deal on a Tremec TKX trans, steel SFI bellhousing, hydraulic throwout bearing, and 28oz steel flywheel PN: 91029050-28). It's actually a few hundred dollars less right now than when I bought mine in July.

The TKX gear ratios are not ideal for a typical 3.55/3.73 rear, but I did the math and a 3.08 rear gear equates to the same final drive with this kit as a 3.55 (which is what I was shooting for). My build is a more conventional stick axle build and I have a FOX housing with SN95 axles in the corner of the shop anyway that happens to have 3.08 gears in it already... cost savings, check!

johnnybgoode

11-22-2022, 04:38 PM

I don't think you will be disappointed with your choice. Here's mine on a dyno a few years back and warming up this spring. Scott

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jao9vziGZl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzi7xl6aT_k

narly1

11-22-2022, 04:59 PM

Myself I had always wanted the challenge/experience/satisfaction of rebuilding a car engine for myself so that's what I did.

Mild 302 with Pro Flo 4 EFI.

It's all documented here on the forum if you ever want to read about what was involved.

Earl

KDubU

11-23-2022, 06:26 AM

GoDadGo

11-23-2022, 08:39 AM

Nice choice! Guaranteed to put you back in your seat. Just watch the right foot.

Ditto On Picking The SBF BP-408!

While I always prefer Dark Side Power, the value of your car will be much better with Traditional Ford Power...Also, the 408 is a stump puller so the 3:08's will be fine and dandy since it 408 will have more than enough torque to make things interesting.

Looks Like A Great Build Plan!

first time builder

11-24-2022, 11:54 AM

Try Mike forte before you decide. his prices , quality and service are the best !

TBull

11-26-2022, 07:37 PM

Alan_C

11-26-2022, 08:26 PM

I built my MK4 in 2011 just as the Coyote became available. At the time, very expensive. I was trying to keep cost down, so I went with a donor build but few do that anymore. I used a 2004 Mach 1 with 38K miles as a donor. Except for having to narrow the rear axle, just about a perfect donor at the time. With the donor only being 7 years old, most parts did not require rebuilding, just clean, paint and install. The build had the same challenges as a Coyote as they are just as wide. I used the donor hydroboost and the ABS which worked well. I enjoyed the rev happy nature, just like a Coyote, and with 299 HP and 320 ft. lbs. of torque all measured at the rear wheels, the car was plenty entertaining.
Fast forward to today, very few do donor builds anymore as the cars are too old with too many miles on them. If I built again today, my choices would be a 2nd or 3rd Gen Coyote with a TKX or a FI 347 again with the TKX.
The Coyote once installed, running and tuned will basically be an appliance. It should be just a reliable as one from a late model Mustang. They don't work as hard as the MK4 is so much lighter than the Mustang. They are a tight fit, but not really that much of an issue as there is really little to work on. The plugs are accessible on the top of the valve covers, but Iridium plugs last 100K miles anyway. So maintenance is little more than changing the oil and filter and using good oil. Keep you air and fuel filters clean and just drive.
For my second choice, I would do the 347 with a Pro Flow 4 FI system. I live at 5000 ft. and the FI adapts to altitude. If you go carbureted, then you are likely to do more fiddling and you will likely need to have it tuned by someone to get it spot on.
These cars are light and while the big CI engines seem cool, their torque can over power sticky 315s in the back pretty easily. If you are a highly experienced high performance driver with racing experience, no issue, but if you are new to these cars, the Coyote or 347 will not be as twitchy with the go pedal. They all can bite you, but to me, more torque means spinning the tires more easily.
Others will have a different view, but we build what we want.
I still have the images of Saul from the San Diego area who wrapped his supercharged Coyote powered MK4 around a large tree in a median a few years back. May he rest in peace.
So engine choice all impacts your enjoyment, comfort and safety.
Lots of things to consider in engine choice, choose wisely.

edwardb

11-26-2022, 09:50 PM

One thing to maybe take into consideration is the physical size of the engine. The 302 /347 is the smallest of the lot and still able to produce plenty of power, but the physical size of it allows for larger footboxes and more room around the engine to work on it. The Coyote is a tight fit. It is done on a regular basis, but it depends on your comfort level as well. I'm a little above average size, so I wanted as big of a footbox as I could get, which is why I went with a 347 Big bore on my Roadster. Couldn't be happier. Just something else to consider/ think of

Clarification -- All kits, regardless of engine, come with the same sheet metal and footboxes. Bigger engines will fill the engine bay more. But don't affect the footboxes. Agreed the 302 size block gives the most clearance in the engine bay. But even then some of the plugs are a little challenging to reach. 351 size blocks are worse. Coyote plugs are through the heads so a non-issue. Headers are challenging for all, but if done properly should be once and done. Bottom line IMO, don't use footbox or engine bay space as a major criteria. If at all. Each has pluses and minuses but are all proven. Go for the engine that fits your build plan, budget, and dream of what you think the car should be.