Hydraulic Release Bearings... Who makes a good one?

[ggunter]

Just wondering who makes a GOOD HRB. I have had a Tilton which lasted 106 miles before it started to squeal, with no warranty. Summit sent me a new one, ( thanks Summit) but it had a hole in one of the hoses right out of the box. I split the engine and trans from my old 347 setup, to use that bearing, which had a Mcleod bearing assy it it. It had 4500 miles on it and was leaking fluid and the bearing was already worn out. These are pretty pricey items and I would like to see one go 10,000 mile at least. Is this the norm with these or are my experiences out of the norm. I don't mind paying for good parts, but everyone has an expectation of what the life of a particular part should be.

[wallace18]

I really like the external setup from Forte.

https://fortesparts.com/product/fortes-tko-600-hydraulic-clutch-kit/

[edwardb]

5100 miles on my Tilton HRB. Has been perfect. Tilton has an excellent quality reputation. Have you talked to them about your issues?

[ggunter]

I have not spoke with anyone at Tilton. To look at the product it looks well made, but the bearing itself can be made by anyone. I know Tilton does not make the bearings. I have a Tilton back in the car now I hope it lasts a reasonable amount of time and miles. I looked at the warranty on other units and the least I saw was 90 days and the most was1 year. To say they don't offer a warranty on a $370 part is a bit unreal in my book.

[drewr]

I have a RAM Clutches hydraulic bearing. Installed and works, but I still haven't had my first start. I know they make a rebuild kit with new seals if it ever leaks. I don't know how long it will last, but at least I can rebuild if necessary.

https://ramclutches.com/product/78132/

[ggunter]

I looked at Ram but didn't see any reviews about the product

[drewr]

I got it in a "kit" from Speedway Motors with my TKX, flywheel, clutch, bell housing, etc.

[Fman]

+1 for Fortes external setup, really can't figure out why people install the internal TOB setup. If something does go wrong you are taking out your trans for access. Really easy 10 min job to swap out external slave.

[edwardb]

+1 for Fortes external setup, really can't figure out why people install the internal TOB setup. If something does go wrong you are taking out your trans for access. Really easy 10 min job to swap out external slave.

Yup, this is the usual objection. Why install one? Easier to install, cheaper, noticeably lower effort which for me is a big deal (I had an internal installation side-by-side with an external setup with everything else exactly the same to confirm), and self-adjusting. Like disc brakes. That alone is a really nice feature. No more annual adjustments as the clutch wears. I totally get the concern about what happens if it fails. The bearing portion, in theory, isn't any different than a traditional TOB. Bearings can fail in either case. The hydraulic portion is probably the most concerning, e.g. hoses, connections, seals, etc. My Tilton setup in the Coupe has been rock solid for three seasons and past 5,000 miles. I don't know the typical lifespan of a clutch (widely variable) but they are a maintenance item and require the same teardown to service. My hope is that the internal TOB lasts at least as long as the clutch. So far so good. :rolleyes:

As is often with the case, failures are typically the only thing posted on here and many others are operating normally. Wonder if that's the case here? I don't know. Blueprint has been installing them as standard for some time, and they've sold a lot of engines to FF builders. Also, to be fair, a couple of the failures have been installation errors, e.g. not routing the hoses adequately. But comparing to external isn't exactly apples to apples in my experience. If you were to drive my Coupe, I bet you'd be surprised how well it works. Regardless, I understand the risk and if not comfortable don't go for it.

[john42]

Couple weeks ago when my car broke down with a fried clutch bearing, I was "lucky" enough to be 14 miles from Forte. They replaced it with a Ram bearing, clutch, etc. Now it's the nicest best feeling clutch ever. I no longer dread heavy traffic for the stress on my left leg. Now I just dread heavy traffic for... traffic!

[Fman]

Yup, this is the usual objection. Why install one? Easier to install, cheaper, noticeably lower effort which for me is a big deal (I had an internal installation side-by-side with an external setup with everything else exactly the same to confirm), and self-adjusting. Like disc brakes. That alone is a really nice feature. No more annual adjustments as the clutch wears. I totally get the concern about what happens if it fails. The bearing portion, in theory, isn't any different than a traditional TOB. Bearings can fail in either case. The hydraulic portion is probably the most concerning, e.g. hoses, connections, seals, etc. My Tilton setup in the Coupe has been rock solid for three seasons and past 5,000 miles. I don't know the typical lifespan of a clutch (widely variable) but they are a maintenance item and require the same teardown to service. My hope is that the internal TOB lasts at least as long as the clutch. So far so good. :rolleyes:

As is often with the case, failures are typically the only thing posted on here and many others are operating normally. Wonder if that's the case here? I don't know. Blueprint has been installing them as standard for some time, and they've sold a lot of engines to FF builders. Also, to be fair, a couple of the failures have been installation errors, e.g. not routing the hoses adequately. But comparing to external isn't exactly apples to apples in my experience. If you were to drive my Coupe, I bet you'd be surprised how well it works. Regardless, I understand the risk and if not comfortable don't go for it.

All valid points, I just hit the easy button for me and did the external set up. I also wonder how many customers would choose to go external slave from BP if they had the option? They have been using them for decades on many cars with success. All I know is my clutch feels good and is easy to shift, so up to this point I have no complaints about Fortes external setup. After 4200 miles now I have not had to adjust anything. To each is own and everyone needs to go the route they feel works best for them.

[Hoooper]

Do you have a clutch stop?

[edwardb]

Do you have a clutch stop?

Not sure who you're asking. But I'll bite. On my Coupe with the Tilton HRB and 13/16" MC, I don't have a clutch stop. I've confirmed with the pedal pushed against the back wall, I'm (1) not exceeding the maximum throw of the HRB per the Tilton instructions, and (2) the clutch is fully disengaged and works perfectly. So in that case, a clutch stop would serve no purpose. While nothing necessarily wrong with one, IMO if you're stopping the clutch pedal before its full throw (e.g. with a stop, especially a lot) you may not have the right size MC and you're trading increased effort for a shorter throw. Going down a size with the MC might be a better option. It's all about finding the best combination.

[JohnK]

I'll offer a slightly different opinion on the pedal stop. I have the Tilton HRB with a 13/16" MC and for whatever reason max allowable travel with my setup was short of contacting the firewall. I could have gone with a larger MC to extend pedal travel and reduce effort but pedal effort was already very comfortable and I only needed to stop the pedal about 1/2" short of the firewall so I installed a stop. The important thing, no matter what solution you land on, is that you strictly follow the instructions and adhere to the max allowable throw for the HRB.

[edwardb]

I'll offer a slightly different opinion on the pedal stop. I have the Tilton HRB with a 13/16" MC and for whatever reason max allowable travel with my setup was short of contacting the firewall. I could have gone with a larger MC to extend pedal travel and reduce effort but pedal effort was already very comfortable and I only needed to stop the pedal about 1/2" short of the firewall so I installed a stop. The important thing, no matter what solution you land on, is that you strictly follow the instructions and adhere to the max allowable throw for the HRB.

I don't disagree with your solution in that case. 1/2" isn't much and doesn't warrant a different MC. Could be as simple as a slightly different adjustment in the height of the pedal at rest compared to mine. I've just seen some installations where the pedal was stopped far short of it's full travel, indicating a potential mismatch with the MC. Tilton's instructions are very good, with 13/16" the recommendation for our setup. Which worked well for you and I both.

[FF33rod]

I'll offer a slightly different opinion on the pedal stop. I have the Tilton HRB with a 13/16" MC and for whatever reason max allowable travel with my setup was short of contacting the firewall. I could have gone with a larger MC to extend pedal travel ...

I think you mean smaller MC - a larger one pushes more fluid for the same amount of travel

Steve

[JohnK]

Yeah, that. :p

[Hoooper]

Not sure who you're asking. But I'll bite. On my Coupe with the Tilton HRB and 13/16" MC, I don't have a clutch stop. I've confirmed with the pedal pushed against the back wall, I'm (1) not exceeding the maximum throw of the HRB per the Tilton instructions, and (2) the clutch is fully disengaged and works perfectly. So in that case, a clutch stop would serve no purpose. While nothing necessarily wrong with one, IMO if you're stopping the clutch pedal before its full throw (e.g. with a stop, especially a lot) you may not have the right size MC and you're trading increased effort for a shorter throw. Going down a size with the MC might be a better option. It's all about finding the best combination.

I was referring to the OP who has had a failure that sounds extremely likely to be from overtravel, but all aftermarket HRB manufacturers "require" a pedal stop. Tilton recommends only 1/4" extra travel so thats much wiggle room for getting the height comfortable and picking just the perfect MC size. Adjusting the pedal position so it is hitting the end of travel at just the right amount of extra travel is fine if it works for you but the clutch pedal position really should be set based on the driver's preferred height and then provided with a stop to prevent overtravel. If that preferred location just happens to be where pushing the pedal all the way in gives 1/4" extra travel thats extremely lucky. Remember that as the clutch wears the pedal will come up more, so that same stroke will only result in more and more "extra" travel. That said, I was asking the OP because overtravel on the HRB can cause quick bearing failure.

[JohnK]

Not that Paul needs me to defend him, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's not much about his builds that's "lucky". Adjusting the initial pedal position so that 1/4" of travel puts the pedal on the firewall isn't that complicated. It's not what I chose to do, but certainly a viable approach. Also, one of the main benefits of an HRB is that it's self-adjusting. Clutch wear does not result in additional pedal travel with an HRB.

[Alan_C]

I suggest you contact American Powertrain and talk with one of their tech reps.

https://americanpowertrain.com/?s=hydraulic+release+bearings&post_type=product&type_aws=true

[Hoooper]

Not that Paul needs me to defend him, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's not much about his builds that's "lucky". Adjusting the initial pedal position so that 1/4" of travel puts the pedal on the firewall isn't that complicated. It's not what I chose to do, but certainly a viable approach.

You misread, I said its lucky if your preferred pedal height (most comfortable position) happens to result in that extra 1/4" of travel thats lucky. Obviously setting it to have that extra 1/4" of travel regardless of whether you like where it sits is pretty easy to do.


Also, one of the main benefits of an HRB is that it's self-adjusting. Clutch wear does not result in additional pedal travel with an HRB.

Good point, totally forgot about that. Good news for if the travel is set just right.

[ggunter]

The Tilton bearing I have installed actually has a smoother feel (to me) then the Mcleod bearing had. Don't know why just does. I had adjusted the Tilton bearing per instructions of putting the trans in gear with the car on a lift and depress the clutch to the point of where the wheels would turn with a helper turning the wheels and then set a pedal stop 1/2" past that. My complaint is the bearing started squealing after only 106 miles. And Like Edward B said, nobody comes on here to complain that there particular this or that is doing great. There is no need for that. I was concerned that the product failed so soon and that there was no warranty on it. So I was looking for something better. I hope mine was a fluke. We'll see how long the second one goes.

[CW_MI]

Reviving another old thread.

How does one determine this ?
" I've confirmed with the pedal pushed against the back wall, I'm (1) not exceeding the maximum throw of the HRB "

I've been reading through these HRB threads and trying to understand some of the nuances. It seems like the larger bore the MC is, the less effort and less pedal stroke, while the smaller bore does the opposite. Is this correct ?
It also seems like HRB's are easily damaged if over stroked. So this is a very key thing...and what I'm not understanding is how that is figured out.

[Mike.Bray]

I've had several Tilton HRBs and one McLeod. The McLeod failed on me within a few hundred miles. Never had an issue with the Tiltons.

I follow the instructions on installation, basically setting the gap between the bearing and the pressure plate fingers. Once in the car and the system is bled I put the transmission in gear and try to turn the driveshaft (very easy in a Cobra) and slowly push the clutch pedal in until I can turn the driveshaft. That's your point of disengagement for the clutch. Then see where your clutch pedal is. Mine was nearly to the floor so no pedal stop was required.

I have a 13/16" Tilton master cylinder.

[J R Jones]

Reviving another old thread.

How does one determine this ?
" I've confirmed with the pedal pushed against the back wall, I'm (1) not exceeding the maximum throw of the HRB "

I've been reading through these HRB threads and trying to understand some of the nuances. It seems like the larger bore the MC is, the less effort and less pedal stroke, while the smaller bore does the opposite. Is this correct ?
It also seems like HRB's are easily damaged if over stroked. So this is a very key thing...and what I'm not understanding is how that is figured out.

CW, No and Yes. A larger Mcyl diameter pushes more fluid, requiring less stroke. The larger bore also requires more pedal force. Diameter ratios and PSI.
jim

[CW_MI]

I've had several Tilton HRBs and one McLeod. The McLeod failed on me within a few hundred miles. Never had an issue with the Tiltons.

I follow the instructions on installation, basically setting the gap between the bearing and the pressure plate fingers. Once in the car and the system is bled I put the transmission in gear and try to turn the driveshaft (very easy in a Cobra) and slowly push the clutch pedal in until I can turn the driveshaft. That's your point of disengagement for the clutch. Then see where your clutch pedal is. Mine was nearly to the floor so no pedal stop was required.

I have a 13/16" Tilton master cylinder.

So basically by feel ? Seems a bit sketchy with something that can be so easily damaged by overstroking the pedal, especially when bleeding one....not that I have any experience with that, other than helping a buddy with his.

The company I've decided to go with uses a McLeod twin disk clutch and Mcleod HRB. With the failures I've been hearing , I'm going to see if they can change to the Tilton HRB.

All the overthinking I'm doing on this is actually making me rethink the external slave cylinder approach.

[CW_MI]

CW, No and Yes. A larger Mcyl diameter pushes more fluid, requiring less stroke. The larger bore also requires more pedal force. Diameter ratios and PSI.
jim

Thank you.

[Mike.Bray]

So basically by feel ? Seems a bit sketchy with something that can be so easily damaged by overstroking the pedal, especially when bleeding one....not that I have any experience with that, other than helping a buddy with his.

I pressure bled mine although you can easily gravity bleed so no need in pumping the pedal. Just make sure and bench bleed the master cylinder.

It's not a tricky feel at all, it's very apparent when the clutch releases when you're trying to turn the driveshaft. Try it.

[CW_MI]

I pressure bled mine although you can easily gravity bleed so no need in pumping the pedal. Just make sure and bench bleed the master cylinder.

It's not a tricky feel at all, it's very apparent when the clutch releases when you're trying to turn the driveshaft. Try it.

I agree, it wasn't hard to tell when it released, but I know when we were bleeding it ( never thought to bench bleed, or gravity bleed it), we just pumped the pedal...not even realizing that we could be damaging the HRB, or that we should be making sure we weren't overstroking it.

Hopefully nothing got damaged....I guess he will find out in the spring.

[edwardb]

Good discussion. I'm not aware of a method to measure whether you're overstroking the HRB. So I've done it by feel too. Here's my process used on two builds. Tilton 60-6104 in my Coupe with a T-56. 5 seasons driving. 10K miles. Zero issues. Tilton 60-6102 in my Mk5 Roadster with a TKX. Build still underway but HRB installed, bled, and working. Both with Ford Performance M-6375-M50 billet flywheel and dual friction Centerforce clutch resold by Ford Performance as M-7560-T46.

The Tilton instructions are excellent. Follow them exactly. https://tiltonracing.com/wp-content/uploads/98-1110-6000-Series-HRB-web.pdf. There are also multiple videos. My hints FWIW.

1. Follow their recommendation for MC size. This is critical. In both of my builds, 13/16" was the size and has been correct. Related to this, I prefer the clutch and brake pedals to be even, e.g. on the same plane. So that's how I install the MC's and adjust. I know some guys install with the clutch higher than the brake pedal. I have no experience, but could that cause overdriving? Or at least require a clutch stop? Don't know...

2. Follow their directions for measuring and setting the gap. It's not hard. Ruler, calipers, 4th grade math.

3. Make sure to route the hoses so they clear moving parts inside the bell housing. Also not hard. Just pay attention. Couple of guys have reported hoses getting chewed up and you can guess how that went.

4. With everything assembled, bleed the system. I use pressure bleeding which doesn't require pumping the pedal.

5. Then, I do what Mike mentioned and also described in the Tilton instructions. With the transmission in gear, rotate the rear wheel (or driveshaft) and push the clutch pedal slowly in until the clutch releases. This is where you would need a stop. Or in my case for both, I was just off the rear wall as I previously described with insulation and carpet still to be added. That became my pedal stop.

Job done. Almost harder to describe than actually do. Free editorial comment: There are reasons why guys choose internal vs. external. But don't let the above affect the decision. If you haven't done one before, the steps to set up an external are very similar. I would suggest the external is a bit more difficult. I've done several. More moving parts, pushrod length has to be adjusted, pivot point may/may not need to be adjusted, etc. But then I'm biased and I know it.

I've mentioned this before. My 20th Anniversary Roadster, also with a Coyote and the exact flywheel and clutch as my Coupe, had a Forte external setup. I was able to go back and forth to compare. The Coupe with the Tilton HRB had a somewhat lighter very smooth pedal and doesn't require ongoing adjustment. The HRB self-adjusts just like brake calipers and pads. The Roadster needed to be adjusted as part of seasonal maintenance because the release point moved with clutch wear. Same as a cable setup. Those for me are the two biggest advantages.

[Mike.Bray]

I'm biased too Paul. The external setup just seems like a Rube Goldberg device to me.

I love the simplicity of the HRB and the feel is great.

225816

[Bill Elliott]

Tilton HRB is great. Easy to install. No maintenance. Also consider how many production cars use HRB and you never hear about issues with them. The reliability of these is very good.

[CW_MI]

Thanks Paul for the detailed instructions, we actually had a friend walk us through that part....and like you said, 4th grade stuff. I was basically just unclear on how one determines whether they are over traveling the HRB and would need a pedal stop.

I now understand it's just basically by feel.

[CraigS]

A curiosity question for those of you who have had an internal slave for several years. My 19 Stingray has one and the fluid gets ugly black. It is a well known problem. My solution is change the fluid every spring. Do any of you have a similar problem?

[edwardb]

A curiosity question for those of you who have had an internal slave for several years. My 19 Stingray has one and the fluid gets ugly black. It is a well known problem. My solution is change the fluid every spring. Do any of you have a similar problem?

Interesting. Fluid in my Coupe with the Tilton HRB and five seasons still looks the same as when it came out of the bottle. Maybe from clutch wear and getting into the bearing? Bearing wear? Don't like either... If it's a well known problem there has to be theories about why it's happening.

[Jphoenix]

A curiosity question for those of you who have had an internal slave for several years. My 19 Stingray has one and the fluid gets ugly black. It is a well known problem. My solution is change the fluid every spring. Do any of you have a similar problem?

When I first bought my Formula Mazda, the clutch fluid in the reservoir was black, probably PO using the wrong fluid for the Girling master. I rebuilt it with new seals and no problems since. Pretty sure the black is rubber deteriorating - or fluorosilicon or buna-N or nitrile whatever the clutch cylinder uses for its seals.