New Renderings of the Clay Models Coming Soon?

[slopoke]

Can we expect any new photos or modifications of the 4 clay models in the near future? (Besides Rodney's)

[AVIONX]

FWIW I think only Xabiers was clay. The rest were 3D printed (probably using stereo lithography) And I haven't seen anything since the original unveil.

[Oppenheimer]

I think the OP meant to ask can we see the existing models that were made, with details added, cut lines etc, then photographed to give impression of full scale, like the Jim design had done to it in prep for SEMA?

The Rodney design in 3D allows us to almost see that level of detail just from his graphic renderings, but the other designs we never got the chance to see 'in real life'. Which is frustrating after all the work that went into the models, we've never seen them in their full glory.

[kach22i]

Which is frustrating ..........
Makes one wonder what the point of the models really was.

[Silvertop]

....... Which is frustrating after all the work that went into the models, we've never seen them in their full glory.

Actually, it is worse than that. We've never even seen the models (except for the Jim's house design) at the equivalent of ground level. All the shots taken from the original reveal were made with a camera (a cell phone video, I think) being carried by a person shooting down at the models from above. The result is the equivalent of trying to assess the merits of the vehicle from a second-story window. We don't really know what the models look like...........

Really, how difficult would it be for someone to re-video the models while squatting on their haunches in order to get a more realistic perspective? Couldn't somebody out there help us out with this one?

[kach22i]

Actually, it is worse than that. We've never even seen the models (except for the Jim's house design) at the equivalent of ground level.
Not 100% true, did you forget this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2659-818-Project-Updates-From-Dave/page13
6528

[Silvertop]

Not 100% true, did you forget this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2659-818-Project-Updates-From-Dave/page13
6528

No, I remember that. One of so-called "spy shots", designed to keep us drooling without really showing us the whole car. And that's the point. They still haven't really shown us the whole car(s), at least from what I would call ground level, which is the perspective that most people actually experience a car from. And I'd still like to see all four of them (all front, corner, side, and rear views) from that realistic vantage point.

It shouldn't really be that hard to do.

[olpro]

[QUOTE=Silvertop;
It shouldn't really be that hard to do.[/QUOTE]

I am totally with you on this.

[Silvertop]

I am totally with you on this.

Anybody else with us on this?

[D2W]

Anybody else with us on this?

I think everybody is, we're just tired of asking with no response.

[mattster03]

I think everybody is, we're just tired of asking with no response.

+1 , I'm now trying to figure out what the point of this forum is at this point in time...

[David Hodgkins]

I sent a message to FFR regarding the request for new photos.

:)

[Grantourer]

Thank you David!

[PhyrraM]

It shouldn't really be that hard to do.

For Dave, the hard part would be subjecting his top engineer to more undue scutiny. Even if Jim's was not represented, we would still find a way to harrass his design.

I'm sure progress is being made. I'm sure Dave will present to the forum again before a trigger is pulled. And I'm also sure we will polarize ourselves again (and not in the good way).

[DrieStone]

I kind of feel that the scale models are "done". Jim is probably working on modifying his full scale model, and FFR is (hopefully still) working with Rodney on his design. I realize that there are two other scale models, but I would wonder if spending time on the models is the best use of time. I got the impression (or perhaps Dave said it outright), that the first design would be decided upon early in the year.

I'm sure Dave and his team have a lot on their plate, and like any business there really has to be a cost benefit to any activity that his staff works on. I'm guessing the big push for the scale models were for SEMA, although it is curious that three of them weren't shown. There isn't a lot of benefit (other than to a few interested parties on the forums), to doing anything more with them.

I have no doubt we'll see some progress in-between now and then. Much like everyone else, I check the forums a few times a day hoping for a couple of new tidbits of news. I'm hoping for some kind of announcement in regard to the direction they're taking, either choosing Jim's design with some updates, or announcing that Jim is taking over Rodney's design (or working with Rodney). To me, that's a lot more exciting than seeing the models "finished". Then we can all stop wondering what the car is going to look like!

Anyway, that's my own two cents. It may not even be worth that.

[olpro]

One reason Jim’s design drew so much negative comment was because it was the only one developed further (and only one properly photographed) - which for many folks raised the issue of what was the point of the ¼ scale exercise and for that matter, the actual competition last spring. The promise of a fair contest (even if only advisory) was expected and when it didn’t happen, people were naturally going to react.
The other reason it got dissed is that many people honestly found it lacking.
If they produce good photos of all the models at this point, taking comments, they eliminate the reasons for grumbling and impatience.

[shinn497]

Remember, what could be a concept to us is an investment to them. It takes time and money to create those models and I am sure they do not want to waste it.

In addition, they are not only listening to this forum. I feel like the people here think they have too much sway in FFR's operations. They have already had their conference and taken the 818 model to SEMA. Dave has already stated that he will listen more to people that see the 818 in person. I think that is true.

I would be surprised if they were to create new clay models as that looked like it took a lot of time. Then again, I don't know if the RISD people are permanent hires (I hope so). In the same sense, I am very interested in what is going with Olmos's Collaboration. I find this interesting because his design was not loved by those that saw it in person. However now it has won over several hearts and minds. In addition, it is in 3D so it could be possible that bringing it to life as a model would not be very difficult. Anyway I think we should be patient.

I have a lot of faith in FFR, even though this project is sooooo ambitious.

[bbjones121]

It is December. How productive do you think people/families are around this time??

[Silvertop]

.......If they produce good photos of all the models at this point, taking comments, they eliminate the reasons for grumbling and impatience.

That's exactly right!

[RM1SepEx]

I'm going down to visit tomorrow, I wanted to see the models first hand.

I'll try to get some photos from a better perspective...

Caveat: Photographer I'm NOT!

[Xusia]

Perhaps some higher quality, close-up 360 degree video as well? :)

[Oppenheimer]

I kind of feel that the scale models are "done". Jim is probably working on modifying his full scale model, and FFR is (hopefully still) working with Rodney on his design. I realize that there are two other scale models, but I would wonder if spending time on the models is the best use of time. I got the impression (or perhaps Dave said it outright), that the first design would be decided upon early in the year.

They did the models for a reason, and that reason has yet to be fulfilled. Yet they are so tantalizingly close to realizing it. There has been a lot of recent excitement about designs such as Rodney, Vman, even SW1. Those are all great designs, I love where all of them are/are going. But a lot of the interest is becasue there is something to talk about with those. The rest of the models aren't off the radar becasue they aren't good designs, aren't still in the hunt, but simply because there is nothing new with those so nothing to talk about. If FFR did the finishing touches on the models, then photographed to give scale perspective (and from eye level), that would fulfill their purpose. We would be able to evaluate all of the designs (that were modeled) on equal footing.

FFR built those models to get feedback. From their own crew, from industry experts, and from us.

[AVIONX]

I'm going down to visit tomorrow, I wanted to see the models first hand.

I'll try to get some photos from a better perspective...

Caveat: Photographer I'm NOT!

RM1SepEx, Thanks man. We appreciate. Caveat and all. :)

[Dave Smith]

Since returning from SEMA there has been a ton of items. I will give you guys a more full answer after I get out of this 4pm meeting.

[thestigwins]

Thank you Dave, I know that people are starting to sound ungrateful and may come across as thinking that you owe them something. I do not feel this way, I appreciate the amount of time and energy you have put into listening to what your customers want and there are quite a few of us that hope the negativity of these forums does not stop you from listening to our feedback. I can not wait to start building my 818 and I think you guys will do great things with this car.

[D2W]

They did the models for a reason, and that reason has yet to be fulfilled. Yet they are so tantalizingly close to realizing it.
FFR built those models to get feedback. From their own crew, from industry experts, and from us.

I agree, I still have an interest in seeing the models from proper angles and with something other than a video frame capture. It would be nice if they detailed them but I don't think its needed. As far as Jim's model getting bashed, isn't that the purpose of feedback? If a design has merit it will stand on its own.

[David Hodgkins]

Thank you Dave, I know that people are starting to sound ungrateful and may come across as thinking that you owe them something. I do not feel this way, I appreciate the amount of time and energy you have put into listening to what your customers want and there are quite a few of us that hope the negativity of these forums does not stop you from listening to our feedback. I can not wait to start building my 818 and I think you guys will do great things with this car.

DITTO, and I'd bet this is the silent majority.

Post of the week IMO.

:)

[vozproto]

DITTO, and I'd bet this is the silent majority.

Post of the week IMO.

:)

^ I'm with the wookie.

[Oppenheimer]

Thank you Dave, I know that people are starting to sound ungrateful and may come across as thinking that you owe them something. I do not feel this way, I appreciate the amount of time and energy you have put into listening to what your customers want and there are quite a few of us that hope the negativity of these forums does not stop you from listening to our feedback. I can not wait to start building my 818 and I think you guys will do great things with this car.

I hope my quote below wasn't a major contributor to this sentiment, as I did not mean to sound ungrateful. I very much appreciate all the effort that FFR has put into this project, and especially the opportunity this forum, and their willingness to share and make us a part of this process, has afforded us. I realize there is much they have to do post SEMA, and am patient to wait on what comes next. Its simply that I'm hoping part of what comes next is the finishing off of the models that were built. So much effort went into them, it would be a shame not to leverage their full impact.


They did the models for a reason, and that reason has yet to be fulfilled. Yet they are so tantalizingly close to realizing it. There has been a lot of recent excitement about designs such as Rodney, Vman, even SW1. Those are all great designs, I love where all of them are/are going. But a lot of the interest is becasue there is something to talk about with those. The rest of the models aren't off the radar becasue they aren't good designs, aren't still in the hunt, but simply because there is nothing new with those so nothing to talk about. If FFR did the finishing touches on the models, then photographed to give scale perspective (and from eye level), that would fulfill their purpose. We would be able to evaluate all of the designs (that were modeled) on equal footing.

FFR built those models to get feedback. From their own crew, from industry experts, and from us.

[Xusia]

Thank you Dave, I know that people are starting to sound ungrateful and may come across as thinking that you owe them something. I do not feel this way, I appreciate the amount of time and energy you have put into listening to what your customers want and there are quite a few of us that hope the negativity of these forums does not stop you from listening to our feedback. I can not wait to start building my 818 and I think you guys will do great things with this car.

I was already thinking of posting something similar. I think people are just so excited, and so eager, it can sound impatient, ungrateful, or even negative at times. I'm sure this is absolutely NOT the case. I genuinely believe most of the people on this forum have a great deal of respect for FFR and want nothing but the best for this project. Hopefully we all have the maturity to accept not every decision along the way will be as we may want it. Remember, FFR is a business, not our personal coach maker. They have to make business savvy decisions if they want to stay in business.

Also, let's not forget, we rarely - if EVER - have an opportunity to peek inside during the development process, let alone have ANY kind of influence. That fact that FFR is being so gracious should be commended.

Like some others, I'd like to see more of what FFR is thinking in terms of the body design: Better photos of the models, what's going on with Rodney, etc., etc., etc. HOWEVER, what I REALLY want - and what I think we ALL want - is for the project to progress. If any of the aforementioned items get in the way of that, then to hell with them I say! Dave seems like a smart guy. I think he gets that. Even more to the point, I think he "takes care of business." In the end, I am confident we will be presented with a truly awesome car.

Dave, if you are reading this, don't worry about our whining drivel. We love FFR. Just keep focused on getting the car done! :D


DITTO, and I'd bet this is the silent majority.

Post of the week IMO.

:)

AGREED

[thestigwins]

DITTO, and I'd bet this is the silent majority.

Post of the week IMO.

:)

I feel like I can speak for the silent majority. I have been following this project for quite awhile. I just recently decided to register and have been browsing the forums quietly. I just felt like something should be said and couldn't bite my tongue anymore. ;)

Oppenheimer, I was definitely not directing my comment towards you!

[Dave Smith]

I sorta knew it would be a difficult month or three here after SEMA. I have been pre-occupied with the business of buying out my brother 100% from the business, as he has not been an active part of the company for 10 years (other than being an active part of taking profits!), and closing on this agreement will set FFR free to grow at a much faster pace AND enable the 818 project to accelerate. It has been tough to make updates to you guys but good progress is being made.

What is progress? Well, I personally don't like any of the bodies. That's not totally true, I like the bodies but I don't LOVE the bodies and I guess in the end, if my name is on it and it carries the FFR badge, it HAS to be a shape that I am 1000 percent stoked about. We joked about the "Hair-onFire" quotient, but there is alot of truth to that. Of all the things this car has to be, the shape HAS to stop people in their tracks.I've directed the guys to focus on the engineering side of the chassis and parts while Jim explores some changes to his design with our shaper John (ground-up) and we do some work with Rodneys design (I spoke to Rodney a few weeks ago on this and haven't made much progress to report).

The FFR website is getting ready for a major re-launch by the end of the year and I will really try to ensure the 818 section gets a major overhaul with perhaps a blog there )or here) to keep info more up to date. Thru the holidays there wont be too much to report, still I felt bad leaving you guys out in the cold. Sorry for not really answering too many questions but the feedback and comments here ARE read and listened to.

This project began less than a year ago. The car will launch in 2012 and that doesn't mean 2014. The shape/(s) of the car is/are central to it's success. The quality of the design, engineering and the way in which we are designing this kit... all these things are better than anything we've done to date and as much as I want to share the entire process, this next few months will likely be fairly light on updates until we can pull back the curtain on the car in a more detailed and full-sized way.

As far as the models are concerned, they are all here at FFR and I don't want to go forward on any of them so I have little interest in spending time/energy taking detailed photos of shapes I will not make. This is a big change, but I guess I was here late a few weeks ago looking at the models and I just am not feeling that any of them are that close. I like the mods of Rodneys car and the fact that it is CAD ready (with chassis to be married) and Coupe-capable makes it something I want to develop further.. I am also going to be speaking with the crew from RISD about changes to Xabiers car as I've had two good emails from their team leader Michael Lye and I havent even gotten back to them!

[imom]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the update... I see that only Rodney's car is mentioned and the other models are considered as dead in the waters if I read correctly. Vman's design of the Vantage car has been updated and looks sexy to me. I know that Vman doesn't have 3D models (solidwork) files of his design...but can you please comment whether the latest vantage design is worth considering to be explored further or not?

I know you get a lot of directed questions that you may not always answer due to too many things and/or interest...but would appreciate if you can comment on the Vantage design since there is an active thread on this topic for quite some time. Thank you

P.s. The vantage does support convertible/targa/coupe variants well


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6629&d=1323207616
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6628&d=1323207566
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6630&d=1323207734

[DrieStone]

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the update... I see that only Rodney's car is mentioned and the other models are considered as dead in the waters if I read correctly. Vman's design of the Vantage car has been updated and looks sexy to me. I know that Vman doesn't have 3D models (solidwork) files of his design...but can you please comment whether the latest vantage design is worth considering to be explored further or not?

I know you get a lot of directed questions that you may not always answer due to too many things and/or interest...but would appreciate if you can comment on the Vantage design since there is an active thread on this topic for quite some time. Thank you

P.s. The vantage does support convertible/targa/coupe variants well

I think we all really like Vman's car too, but as Dave mentioned, not only is Rodney's design sexy, it's already in 3D and somewhat CAD-ready which I'm sure limits a lot of risk when it comes to expending time and energy pursuing a design. Vman's car hasn't progressed beyond Photoshop mockups which means that his designs have to be translated into some kind of 3D to see how the chassis would fit (and probably a thousand other things). If Vman's design has any chance of being considered in any way, it needs to be built in 3D (and it needs to be done two weeks ago).

I'm not trying to be negative, like I said, Vman's car is sweet and if that's what the 818 looked like, I wouldn't hesitate about buying. Perhaps Jim and John may take some inspiration if they're building a new full-sized clay model.

[Niburu]

I'm not trying to hear negative, like I said, Vman's car is sweet and if that's what the 818 looked like, I wouldn't hesitate about buying. Perhaps Jim and John may take some inspiration if they're building a new full-sized clay model.

I don't think you were being negative, just realistic.
I'll also add that (in my opinion) if they could just use Vmans front fascia on Jim's car it would go a LONG way towards improving the design. Granted there would be alot of adapting to do but the basic design is solid.

[NicksPapaw]

All I needed to hear was that you are not happy with the designs yet. That speaks volumes to me on your thought process. In this day of instant gratification, it is nice to have to wait for a really good product to hit. Teaches us a little patience. :) I can't wait for the reveal though. It is an exciting time at Factory Five. Have a great holiday and I will wait till spring to see what you have up your sleeve.

[kach22i]

..........I like the bodies but I don't LOVE the bodies
Interesting, now I'm really glued to my computer screen.

Why did you have to say anything?;)

Just kidding.

[Evan78]

Just sell the chassis without body at a discounted price (<$10k) as soon as its ready =) At least I can start building and take it to the track!

[Oppenheimer]

OK, so the clay models aren't lighting Dave's HoF, so for now they are dormant. I think we can all understand that. But then it sounds like two of the models are still in the hunt, Rodney's (though living on for now in 3D), and Xabier, which was mentioned there might be some mods to the model yet to come. Well, 3, really, as Jim's is to undergo some more shaping as well.

That is all certainly exciting news! It also sounds like Dave wants the initial street Roadster to be Coupe capable (which presumably means Targa capable as well), which is equally exciting (we knew there was a Coupe to come, but all we knew for sure was the MPG version would be a coupe, and that design would be optimized for aero (well, maybe not Dan F optimized), so unsure if MPG Coupe would have much HoF quotient). But now that Dave has reiterated the importance of HoF, and that there will likely be a Coupe variant of the HoF Roadster, well that should be enough to keep most of us going for the months ahead with few updates.

I think even just telling us there will be a few months without much updates will help, as it will prevent (negative) speculation on what the silence means.

[Niburu]

I think even just telling us there will be a few months without much updates will help, as it will prevent (negative) speculation on what the silence means.

my god you're an opptomist

I predict lot's of whining "Why isn't Dave telling us anything?"

and endless pointless threads;
where's the fueltank is going to be positioned exactly
or the inter cooler
or if you're a 7 foot tall NBA player you won't fit

it should be highly entertaining at least

[bbjones121]

There are some other options that are CAD ready.
Shawn's, Hint hint

[BipDBo]

I'm a little dissapointed to hear that Dave didn't like any of the models because I was really excited about the Nouphone design. I seemed to have been in the minority, though.

I very much like the Whetstone design. I think that the Vantage is pretty good too. The revised Rodney design certainly carries some excitement, but I think it may need some more work to make it doable. I hope that Dave is giving these some consideration.

I'm sure that in the end, they'll have a great looking car, but in my opinion, the shape of the body is not what will sell the car. A Hof design is something great to shoot for, but tastes vary so much that I think the car just needs a good, universal appealling look. The 818 will sell because it will offer outstanding performance, FFR quality, buildability & community, all at unprecedented affordability. Being part of that is why I joined this forum and spent time to draw up a design.

[Silvertop]

I predict lot's of whining "Why isn't Dave telling us anything?"

and endless pointless threads;
where's the fueltank is going to be positioned exactly
or the inter cooler
or if you're a 7 foot tall NBA player you won't fit

it should be highly entertaining at least

All of the above will happen, and more, because the car we are all talking about does not yet exist, regardless of our individual sets of needs, wants, and expectations. We will find ways to entertain ourselves in the meantime. It's OK. It will all eventually become clear, and most of us will probably love the result(s).

Having said that, I must confess that I STILL want to see ground-level photos of the four existing models, even if none of them will be produced in their present shapes. Here's hoping RM1SepEX or other FFR visitor can come through with some photo shots for the rest of us.

[Dave Smith]

To be more clear (I wrote the last response very early this am as I couldnt sleep!), I don't want to take detailed photos (at least not like I did with Jim's silver car) of the models because each one needs changes that would make a discussion on the current shape a waste of time and send you guys down a different direction. There may be a role that you guys could play in the short term that could be productive and prevent frustration. Here is the exact current status:

1. I do not want to make design number 1 (nuophone). That's my call 100%.
2. I want to make modifications to Xabiers design with RISD guys. The rear deck is not resolved and the nose is WAYYY too big with respect to the opening size, and I think it best that IF RISD takes this job, they direct and post here the progress/farm for suggestions. Otherwise, I will be open to posting the photos and asking for help in working on that shape.
3. I like the modified views of Rodneys car and am interested in exploring that more since it is CAD ready and can be tightened up to the exact chassis.
4. I like the Vantage design rear-end but it is too similar to the 918 for my comfort.
5. the whetstone design is very cutting edge and is still considered, although Ive seen first-hand translational differences from drawing to model to full size that make me worry the lack of detail is too extreme... but very cool and clean lines.

[BipDBo]

1. I do not want to make design number 1 (nuophone). That's my call 100%.

I love that design, but probably a good call. Sigh.

[Vman7]

4. I like the Vantage design rear-end but it is too similar to the 918 for my comfort.


I knew I should have never said anything about the 918, it's killing it. I must have on the wrong glasses......rofl

[vozproto]

Vman... For what it's worth, I've shown it to a couple friends and they thought it looked like a 918 without me saying a word about it.

Thanks for the update AND clarification Dave!

[Vman7]

Vman... For what it's worth, I've shown it to a couple friends and they thought it looked like a 918 without me saying a word about it.

Probably because they know what a 918 looks like, or they are car people, most people don't even know what a 918 is let alone what it looks like, an odds of seeing on the road, highly unlikely.

[bbjones121]

Shawn has this in 3D model from what I understand. It could be 3D printed and modified by hand after. Skip the molding altogether to save time. We could probably get more details if we ask him on the thread.

[vozproto]

Probably because they know what a 918 looks like, or they are car people, most people don't even know what a 918 is let alone what it looks like, an odds of seeing on the road, highly unlikely.

Yes, they are very much car people. But it's not that simple.
I don't know anyone on this forum or potential customers that ARENT car people.

But importantly, I imagine that after over 10 years of legal battles with a boutique car designer/manufacturer that was the inspiration for a couple of their cars.... The thought of even the tiniest chance of doing so again, but this time with a company with MUCH deeper pockets just isn't palatable.

[PhyrraM]

Dave,

I'd like to take this time to reintroduce you to Scott Bradford:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5172/5587028050_c80a402bc5_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5587028050/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2726/5731677236_719710b168_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5731677236/)


Well, I can try.....right?:p

[Vman7]

Yes, they are very much car people. But it's not that simple.
I don't know anyone on this forum or potential customers that ARENT car people.

But importantly, I imagine that after over 10 years of legal battles with a boutique car designer/manufacturer that was the inspiration for a couple of their cars.... The thought of even the tiniest chance of doing so again, but this time with a company with MUCH deeper pockets just isn't palatable.

What you are saying is somewhat true on the legal battles, mostly because FFR was doing a replica. If every company sued over a car just because they somewhat look like theirs, nothing would probably get build out of fear.

[Vman7]

Dave,

I'd like to take this time to reintroduce you to Scott Bradford:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5172/5587028050_c80a402bc5_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5587028050/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2726/5731677236_719710b168_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5731677236/)


Well, I can try.....right?:p


I still love this car!!!! has that ferrari feel to it, which I love!

[Oppenheimer]

I'm really looking forward to seeing what RISD comes up with on the Xabier. And if the forum can participate in some aspect, in a 'feedback-refinement-feedback' process, that will be terrific. Look how well that has worked with Rodney.

A lot of that success was Rodney's ability to 'hear' what people didn't like, make refinements that met that need but that he was still comfortable with, and that didn't completely alter the original vision. That and his 'thick skin' for hearing our voices without taking it personally. Everyone participated, but we never went down the 'designed-by-commitee' path. If we can capture that magic and apply it to Xabier (and Jim's), they will all set HoF. Then the challenge will be which one to choose.

[PhyrraM]

I still love this car!!!! has that ferrari feel to it, which I love!

Yeah, vintage Ferrari Dino mixed with Stratos is what I see. Old sports racer with a touch of old rally car. To me, it fits right in with the rest of FFRs line up.

[Vman7]

Xabier's design would be great, except for the front, just way to big of an opening, reminds me of a big mouth bass...lol

[Sultan]

Dave,

I'd like to take this time to reintroduce you to Scott Bradford:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5172/5587028050_c80a402bc5_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5587028050/)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2726/5731677236_719710b168_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5731677236/)


Well, I can try.....right?:p

So much love for this car!!!!

[Vman7]

Yeah, vintage Ferrari Dino mixed with Stratos is what I see. Old sports racer with a touch of old rally car. To me, it fits right in with the rest of FFRs line up.

That's the word I was looking for "vintage" or classic lines, that's what I love about it. I think it would make people think, gee what year is that car or something like is that a ferrari, which would be pretty cool if you were driving it and somebody asked you that, and you say no it's a custom design by FFR, and then they go, really, wow!

[imom]

From what I see of FFR, the MKIV and coupe is a replica based off of an original classic design. The GTM was also influenced from another design, so what is so wrong with the Vantage car having some influences of the 918. So while Rodney's latest updates is truly original...I'm not so in love with the hard top area...it certainly has a great potential for HOF design. I still don't see anything wrong with a Vantage design that has similarities as long as it stands out to be unique enough just like the GTM.

As a long time admirer and now serious potential customer, I don't see as much value of putting more time into Jim's design or the Xabiers design compared to the Vantage and Rodney designs as they are far better looking... so it's a bit disappointing to hear that you are dismissing the Vantage for sharing some similarities with another truly exotic car.

Would be great if FFR put some of their tweaks to Rodney's and Vman's design. Certainly believe that the vantage deserves some effort into being developed into a 3D model vs more time spent with Xabier and Jim's design. I think it's now up to forum members to express their views about the vantage design to persuade Dave into putting more effort versus letting this design go dead in the water. If it is dead in the water... I hope FFR then really put out something HOF WOW design than a few tweaks to Jim's or Xabier design.

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, Scotty B was one of my favorites too. Lots of vintage look, but still modern. Yes, a touch of old Rally car, which seems an appropriate homage to the WRX drivetrain.

[Vman7]

Now this it just an opinion, so don't go postal...lol

Bottom line is people who buy it have to like it or love it, if not they just won't buy it. I think Jim has way too much influence on the design end, just look at the GTM, it's ok, but could be way better. I think Jim is more of a engineer then a designer, which he is extremely good at, his chassis designs are great!

edit: Now this is just based on what I have seen of Jim's work at FFR, so I can't really say for sure about his design work, since far as I know he has mostly worked on the GTM and '33 in the sense of overall work from the start of the design, mostly the GTM, which don't get me wrong is great, I just think it could be better.

Just an opinion.

[Vman7]

Yes, Scotty B was one of my favorites too. Lots of vintage look, but still modern. Yes, a touch of old Rally car, which seems an appropriate homage to the WRX drivetrain.

well said!

[Xusia]

What you are saying is somewhat true on the legal battles, mostly because FFR was doing a replica. If every company sued over a car just because they somewhat look like theirs, nothing would probably get build out of fear.

As I understand it, the lawsuit was not over the look, but rather the trademark (i.e. the name). That's why it's now called a Mk4 Roadster.

I would bet the reason Dave doesn't want it looking too similar to another car is so that it will truly be an all original. If the body shape is too close to another car - whether right or wrong - people will draw the conclusion it's a replica and not an original design.


Yeah, vintage Ferrari Dino mixed with Stratos is what I see. Old sports racer with a touch of old rally car. To me, it fits right in with the rest of FFRs line up.

That's funny. I see nothing but Exige!

[vozproto]

I definitely see the value in tweaking Jim's car for the following reasons:
- We have already loudly voiced our concerns about the design. Why toss out all that valuable focus group research?
- It is already in 3D and designed to fit the chassis. All he is changing is skin profiles now.
- It will give us something to compare any other selected models to it

^ For these reasons I can't see why Dave would decide NOT to make these changes to Jim's design.
If all the feedback is heeded and Jim has no ego between his seat and keyboard, this could very well grow into a dark-horse candidate.




That's funny. I see nothing but Exige!
Same here for the bottom rendering. The top pic is what I chose to like.

[Vman7]

I definitely see the value in tweaking Jim's car for the following reasons:
- We have already loudly voiced our concerns about the design. Why toss out all that valuable focus group research?
- It is already in 3D and designed to fit the chassis. All he is changing is skin profiles now.
- It will give us something to compare any other selected models to it

^ For these reasons I can't see why Dave would decide NOT to make these changes to Jim's design.
If all the feedback is heeded and Jim has no ego between his seat and keyboard, this could very well grow into a dark-horse candidate.



Same here for the bottom rendering. The top pic is what I chose to like.

That's what got me working on the Vantage again. I suggested putting the Vantage front and rear on Jim's design, and if you look close at Jim's design the side view is pretty close to the vantage, at least in the door area.

[Xusia]

That's what got me working on the Vantage again. I suggested putting the Vantage front and rear on Jim's design, and if you look close at Jim's design the side view is pretty close to the vantage, at least in the door area.

And they may still do that!

[Dave Smith]

In this process there are alot of Masters to serve. For example, in order to meet the price (to complete under $15k) the body panels have to be no-paint panels. That drives the process that makes them to the thermoform process which presents limitations on shapes and sizes of panels among other variables. The point being that the shape/shapes are subject to alot of variables and have to meet alot of requirements beyond looking good. I know you guys know all this.

On the 918 similarity, I am looking forward to the press introduction of this car and am planning on it becoming an icon and a high water mark for FFR as well as becoming famous in it's own right for it's looks, performance, and delivering on a 40 year old broken promise of "afffordable kit cars"... I won't use a design that borrows obvious ques from another car because I am selfish don't want the know-it-all autojournalist out there saying all these great things about the car and adding... but it is a rip-off of a fill-in-the-blank.

[kach22i]

I knew I should have never said anything about the 918, it's killing it. I must have on the wrong glasses......rofl
The 3D sketch I did of your design looks nothing like a 918 in my opinion (and it's fairly accurate).

You should have at least added a little tone to these, I can lead the horse to water.................

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/kach22i-Vman-linedrawing-2.jpg

[RonSchofield]

In this process there are alot of Masters to serve. For example, in order to meet the price (to complete under $15k) the body panels have to be no-paint panels. That drives the process that makes them to the thermoform process which presents limitations on shapes and sizes of panels among other variables. The point being that the shape/shapes are subject to alot of variables and have to meet alot of requirements beyond looking good. I know you guys know all this.

On the 918 similarity, I am looking forward to the press introduction of this car and am planning on it becoming an icon and a high water mark for FFR as well as becoming famous in it's own right for it's looks, performance, and delivering on a 40 year old broken promise of "afffordable kit cars"... I won't use a design that borrows obvious ques from another car because I am selfish don't want the know-it-all autojournalist out there saying all these great things about the car and adding... but it is a rip-off of a fill-in-the-blank.

Dave,

Will Factory 5 sell just the chassis without body so those of use who have the mindset and skills to make one of the bodies that you don't love can make the ones that we love?

[Vman7]

The 3D sketch I did of your design looks nothing like a 918 in my opinion (and it's fairly accurate).

You should have at least added a little tone to these, I can lead the horse to water.................

It is what it is. I am not going to push it anymore. Dave and FFR have a vision and they are going to stick with that, and that ok, it's their company and they should do what they feel is right.

[imom]

Dave,
The GTM was the biggest reason I was interested with FFR again occured when I was shopping for a new car, but the $50K to $100K kit car put it out of my logical budget...I could afford it...but not justified for my lifestyle.. On the flip side... 15K is an extremely low number for a built kit car... When you reach this accomplishment... I believe many of us will have a hard time waiting for the huge lead time to get the kit delivered. I hope that you leave options for up to $5K to $10K more towards the design of the aesthetics of the car, instead of compromises to meet the $15K price point.

I don't know much about the GTM press releases and reviews from journalist... how much criticism did you get about that design in terms of looking like another manufacturer? I do understand your explanation about being original... but as you mentioned before that a 2D to 3D to clay to real cars may have a dramatic different look. As some of us mentioned...or I mentioned that would be good if some 3D modeling of the vantage be made to see how different it really is from the 918. Kach22i's sketch shows me something much different to and 918. I believe the Vantage is hotter sister of Jim's design if I may use that analogy far as shape wise. I'm intrigue to know if it's because of the past experiences with the journalists and comments that's making you sour to the vantage... if you're mind is already made up...it's a pity, but certainly your right as being your company. I hope that the new 818 next year will be something all of us will not need to debate on and just put our money down and buy it. I just think it's a shame to dismiss the Vantage as to me it seems that Rodney's and Vantage are the forum favorites... dismissing 1/2 of the forum favorites is a pretty disappointing thing.

[Oppenheimer]

...I ...don't want the know-it-all autojournalist out there saying all these great things about the car and adding... but it is a rip-off of a fill-in-the-blank.

That being the case (& seems like a very valid case to me), the focus should be concentrated on original designs, that also do not look like the next design from fill-in-the-blank (at least for shape1). Designs that are buildable, that can be made as a Roadster now, Coupe later.

If the 818 proves to be as popular as FFR (and we) hope, I can see where down the line it becomes the foundation for future FFR 'cars'. Dave has 3 purposes in mind now, Street, Track, MPG. Two drivetrains, WRX and TDi. But why stop there? Imagine if the next time FFR wants to build a 'new' car, they just make some new 818 drivetrain options available, and create a new body design for the 818 chassis. Some of these cars we wish were built, that don't end up being 818 shape1, they could be shape2, or 3, or whatever.

There could be a whole future of designs that ride on this chassis. That can't happen if the car isn't a wild success. A lot of stuff has to go right, from the start, for that to happen. So everyone that is seeing their favorite design evaporating, don't go anywhere, put your effort into helping make whatever design is chosen into the best it can be. If the 818 succeeds wildy, there is hope your favorite design could get built.

[Vman7]

I just had a thought.....yeah I know could cause some brain damage.....lol

Since Dave Smith and FFR are talking about for the most part 3 designs aka: Roadster/Spyder, Track, MPG versions. How about the idea of a Roadster/Spyder which is totally a orig. design, which would be a street and track version. A coupe that would be orig. which could be used as well for the MPG version. But also have a Targa/Coupe and maybe as well as a Spyder version that has classic lines for the people that really like that. Just thinking of it since most of the cars that FFR sells is the Roadster and the '33.

This way FFR would still have the orig. design but yet still have one body that is along the classic lines.

Just a thought. Now I have to go and replace some brain cells........lol

[Vman7]

That being the case (& seems like a very valid case to me), the focus should be concentrated on original designs, that also do not look like the next design from fill-in-the-blank (at least for shape1). Designs that are buildable, that can be made as a Roadster now, Coupe later.

If the 818 proves to be as popular as FFR (and we) hope, I can see where down the line it becomes the foundation for future FFR 'cars'. Dave has 3 purposes in mind now, Street, Track, MPG. Two drivetrains, WRX and TDi. But why stop there? Imagine if the next time FFR wants to build a 'new' car, they just make some new 818 drivetrain options available, and create a new body design for the 818 chassis. Some of these cars we wish were built, that don't end up being 818 shape1, they could be shape2, or 3, or whatever.

There could be a whole future of designs that ride on this chassis. That can't happen if the car isn't a wild success. A lot of stuff has to go right, from the start, for that to happen. So everyone that is seeing their favorite design evaporating, don't go anywhere, put your effort into helping make whatever design is chosen into the best it can be. If the 818 succeeds wildy, there is hope your favorite design could get built.

Well said! you must have been typing the same time I was.....lol

[t3steve]

Another vote for Scott Bradfords design

[Oppenheimer]

Well said! you must have been typing the same time I was.....lol

Great minds think alike, and apparently, so do ours.

[D2W]

To be more clear (I wrote the last response very early this am as I couldnt sleep!), I don't want to take detailed photos (at least not like I did with Jim's silver car) of the models because each one needs changes that would make a discussion on the current shape a waste of time and send you guys down a different direction. There may be a role that you guys could play in the short term that could be productive and prevent frustration. Here is the exact current status:

1. I do not want to make design number 1 (nuophone). That's my call 100%.
2. I want to make modifications to Xabiers design with RISD guys. The rear deck is not resolved and the nose is WAYYY too big with respect to the opening size, and I think it best that IF RISD takes this job, they direct and post here the progress/farm for suggestions. Otherwise, I will be open to posting the photos and asking for help in working on that shape.
3. I like the modified views of Rodneys car and am interested in exploring that more since it is CAD ready and can be tightened up to the exact chassis.
4. I like the Vantage design rear-end but it is too similar to the 918 for my comfort.
5. the whetstone design is very cutting edge and is still considered, although Ive seen first-hand translational differences from drawing to model to full size that make me worry the lack of detail is too extreme... but very cool and clean lines.

This is a good plan. My personal views:
(1) I'm with you on Nuophone, not one of my favorites.
(2) I think Xabiers design has a ton of potential. If people remember it was the odds on favorite during the contest, it was only after the 3d model came out that questions were raised. Most of us still haven't seen any more of the model than a couple bad pictures. If the RISD guys can work with the group here like Rodney did this car could return to that race version we all liked so well.
(3) I like Rodney's design, and it has gotten even better. Will that translate into a hof full size car? Only one way to find out.
(4) I'm with you again on the Vantage. To me a nice looking but not hof, and it definately says Porsche to me. No idea what it would look like in 3d, which is part of the problem.
(5) Except for the nose I really like Whetstone's design. It has the simplicity (like a Lotus 211) that I was thinking of when the 818 idea was thrown out. You may be right when you say it wouldn't tranfer well to a full size car although I would really like to see it happen.

P.S. What ever happens with your brother, remember just that, he's your brother. Nothing else is all that important, not companies, not cars, not money.

[Steve91T]

Dave, I have no doubt that whatever the 818 looks like, it's going to looks awesome and is going to sell like crazy.

I'm really interested in the progress of the chassis. Can we maybe start a new thread with some updates? For a long time now, it's been all about the look of the car. Personally, I'm going to purchase this car no matter what it looks like because I know the performance is going to be unreal.

I don't want to take away from the body design. I know that's very important for the success of the car.

Thanks,
Steve

[RM1SepEx]

Wow, tons of responses since yesterday!

My friend Mark and I went down to visit today and spent 1 1/2 hrs walking around with Dave discussing the 818 and his direction. I think our discussions helped us get to our current understanding of where he is. I did take one photo that exemplifies where Dave was/is with the models and I've uploaded here.

We had a long discussion on how/why he wanted to proceed re: the photos and by the time I got back to Maine and digested how to post, he's already responded. Detailed model photos would just bring the forum down a rat hole, wasting bandwidth.

If you could look at the models and then go look at the full size of Jim's you can see how the models don't really translate to full size. Even the full size model (being massaged as we looked at it!) didn't really give you a full picture as the vents and other items are not there and don't contrast the modeling materials

We all need to provide inputs on what we desire to give them some visability into their market's desires BUT we have to trust that based on their open approach to the process and their current products that they will do everything possible to provide a kick *** product that meets their very clear gloals.

Now remember that their goals include the ability to build a simplistic, basic car for 15k but anyone can go nuts and do much more. A GTM can be built from 35-40k but many approach 75,000! Their technology and how it is applied will allow us to, over time, see multiple body styles for multiple purposes. We also have to understand that Dave's focus is on the business aspects and they will indeed provide all of us, rabid customers/enthusiasts with a great product.

All constructive inputs may help determine the final result, BUT we need to understand that only 2-3 people, at Factory 5 really have their derrierres on the line with this design.

Dave indicated that his PERT chart allows another 3 months or so with body design and that the technology would allow a very rapid transition to making panels. the design must be smoking to generate sales AND be manufacturable with their technology to provide spot on panels that bolt up, with no paint, for a sweet finish.

They will be as open as they can to give us a heads up when the design(s) get closer.

No one can question that their chassis will be stiff and top notch, suspension geometry spot on, performance will be awesome even with the low end Impreza engine while the Subaru parts bin (WRX, WRX STI) and tuner community can get you to GTM territory!

I can't wait, and am ready to put my money down now, sight unseen.

??? Kits being assembled in mid 2012! ???:D

[thestigwins]

thanks for the post RM1, that picture is hilarious.

[Flamshackle]

Thanks for the info mate :D

Glad that the black car is being shelved.

Glad that Xabiers and Rodney are being tweaked.

Im still torn between the two so either will send me into HOF territory!

Thanks Dave and no probs re updates I am more than happy to wait especially considering your dealings with your brother to own FFR outright. That is a very big deal and very time consuming transaction right there.

Keep up the good work and merry christmas all!

[RM1SepEx]

thanks for the post RM1, that picture is hilarious.

Based on our discussions this AM it seemed like the only useful photo that we could provide since we would only be wasting time discussing them in detail and it really emphasizes what Dave posted.

We had a fun visit, the business and their attitude is awesome, wish I could do it full time, though my life ain't bad! :D;)

[olpro]

RM1SepEx,
I noticed that red model in your photo, which was painted clay, looks like it had not held up very well. The side looked like it had peeled or maybe they tried some modifications on it? How did the other ¼ scales look to you?

[Xusia]

??? Kits being assembled in mid 2012! ???:D

One can only hope! :D

[RM1SepEx]

RM1SepEx,
I noticed that red model in your photo, which was painted clay, looks like it had not held up very well. The side looked like it had peeled or maybe they tried some modifications on it? How did the other ¼ scales look to you?

what? you must have super vision, mine is 20/10 and the models looked fine, no mods! The surface finish isn't perfect on any of them... perhaps that's what you see at an angle when the light reflects

They look like good props for your mantle but are hard to really judge compared to the full scale model that you can look at from varied angles, run you hands over etc... The proportions somehow look off, I can't explain it, at 1/4 scale

Dave indicated that they made a full size model of the gaping maw that is the nose on Xabier's car and it would scare you. Even looking at the model it's too big, but on paper, not so much. (and this is my favorite)

They are working hard to "tweak" the designs, match to the frame (remember Rodney's 1/4 scale has that hideous blunt nose and the rear is about 6-8 inches too wide) It looked like a cartoon in the flesh... even the color didn't help. He's done a wonderful job of refining that over the past few weeks!

The black one I never liked, reminds me of the nose of an S2000 and I don't like those either, the rear isn't bad. I think the color hurts this one too

Let's trust them to rework and refine the designs and see what we get.

BTW Dave was very blunt on how he felt about Jim's car too, he has high expectations, so don't be so damn hard on him, he is very critical of ALL the designs even and maybe especially Jim's, and wants what we want!

[Best of the best]

I am disappointed too. Oh well...Dave isn't gonna get my $. Nouphone's design just seem more mature and all the line flow so well and well thought out compared to the other designs. Its a shame Dave dont recognized good designs.

[Evan78]

I am disappointed too. Oh well...Dave isn't gonna get my $. Nouphone's design just seem more mature and all the line flow so well and well thought out compared to the other designs. Its a shame Dave dont recognized good designs.So even though they haven't designed the car yet, you know that you won't want whatever they come up with?

[vozproto]

It's nice to hear that Dave hasn't gone the easy route and decided upon designs or combinations thereof that are easy.

Granted this company doesn't have the resources or time to go countless revisions of designs deep, but it's refreshing to see that he isnt afraid of choosing " D: none of the above" rather than settling for 2nd best.

Looking forward to a screamin FFR in my garage.

[Dave Smith]

Dave,
The GTM was the biggest reason I was interested with FFR again occured when I was shopping for a new car, but the $50K to $100K kit car put it out of my logical budget...I could afford it...but not justified for my lifestyle.. On the flip side... 15K is an extremely low number for a built kit car... When you reach this accomplishment... I believe many of us will have a hard time waiting for the huge lead time to get the kit delivered. I hope that you leave options for up to $5K to $10K more towards the design of the aesthetics of the car, instead of compromises to meet the $15K price point.

I don't know much about the GTM press releases and reviews from journalist... how much criticism did you get about that design in terms of looking like another manufacturer? I do understand your explanation about being original... but as you mentioned before that a 2D to 3D to clay to real cars may have a dramatic different look. As some of us mentioned...or I mentioned that would be good if some 3D modeling of the vantage be made to see how different it really is from the 918. Kach22i's sketch shows me something much different to and 918. I believe the Vantage is hotter sister of Jim's design if I may use that analogy far as shape wise. I'm intrigue to know if it's because of the past experiences with the journalists and comments that's making you sour to the vantage... if you're mind is already made up...it's a pity, but certainly your right as being your company. I hope that the new 818 next year will be something all of us will not need to debate on and just put our money down and buy it. I just think it's a shame to dismiss the Vantage as to me it seems that Rodney's and Vantage are the forum favorites... dismissing 1/2 of the forum favorites is a pretty disappointing thing.

The extent to which we developed the GTM and it's looks were generally regarded well and not as a rip-off of anything (it wasnt). Still its a good point in that many cars have cues from other cars and when you pick a genre (like mid-engined sports car) you naturally have similar lines based on function and real-estate management. PLEASE don't think the 818 stops at the $9,900 target... one of the biggest reasons I want to do multiple bodies is that the chassis is very capable and a coupe is on the boards. My thinking was to simply start with the affordable roadster as it will lay a broad and strong platform for future product growth.

[Dave Smith]

I just had a thought.....yeah I know could cause some brain damage.....lol

Since Dave Smith and FFR are talking about for the most part 3 designs aka: Roadster/Spyder, Track, MPG versions. How about the idea of a Roadster/Spyder which is totally a orig. design, which would be a street and track version. A coupe that would be orig. which could be used as well for the MPG version. But also have a Targa/Coupe and maybe as well as a Spyder version that has classic lines for the people that really like that. Just thinking of it since most of the cars that FFR sells is the Roadster and the '33.

This way FFR would still have the orig. design but yet still have one body that is along the classic lines.

Just a thought. Now I have to go and replace some brain cells........lol

THAT is a definite possibility. At this point I don't want to put anybody off but I wanted to be clear about where the work was right now, the fact that I've sorta chosen the affordable roadster config as the first launch model and that the future is wide open with respect to body designs Coupe, Track car, etc. I might go more towards Vmas design after the first model launches since the platform will be so USEABLE and in production. The most important thing is to get the body right, the second thing is to launch as soon as possible assuming the HARD and IMPORTANT pre-production testing and beta building is complete.

[RM1SepEx]

First, best of the best, so Dave doesn't like your choice so you are going to go home, it won't look good at full size based on the other scaled design efforts. NO ONE goes into production without full scale model development and that would cost Factory 5 THOUSANDS of samolians. It's his cash and that route is closed. w/o seeing anything... your choice is to take your ball and go home, no sort of logic is involved in such a decision, good luck to you

Second, Voz is EXACTLY correct, they are a lean mean fighting machine... Dave's the grand poobah, he's shown us that he's willing to make the tough decisions, sit back and enjoy the ride. If you don't like the end product, wait for the next revision or buy something else. The technical prowress of this company means that design and fabrication are directly linked by computer integrated manufacturing and design.

Over these last month many have spoken of some sort of conspiracy concerning favoritism towards Jim's design. I talked face to face with Dave, that couldn't be any farther from the truth, he's most likely harder on Jim, he pays his salary and demands excellence from his employees, that's why they are so successful and have re-written the "kit car" industry. These guys are PASSIONATE about what they do.

I'm hoping to see something based on Xabier's as the roadster/track machine... it can be made better and I've seen them working on "tweaks" first hand when I visited, he's given info that says that he's working with RISD on the evolution of that shape

I absolutely hated Rodney's as it exists as the model, however the forum/Rodney "tweak" process has really turned that into a head turner. I'm thinking that if the aerodynamic studies work out well "good aero numbers" that it would make a kick *** coupe... he indicated that he's communicating with Rodney...

We have two more shapes that have quite good support, the Vantage and Whetstone designs, perhaps more work will be done on those. I love the vantage and think that the whetstone design would make the best aero coupe. Who knows, we wait and see, they will work the numbers and decide what fits each particular application best. Aero analysis FA, CD, drag, lift, etc... can be done right in solidworks! holy **** isn't that handy!

Jim's design is undergoing MASSIVE changes, as I type this, at full scale... who knows what will happen with this one

What will win out and when? Who knows

you can bet your life that these guys are 110% committed to bringing out something that will meet their business needs and goals... that in itself makes me want one, NOW!

[Dave Smith]

SHOOT! I didnt get thru the posts before I wrote some replies. Everything RM1SepEx said... perfectly captured what we discussed on his visit.

Here is one last thing to consider about body shapes and designs. The world as we know it is changing so fast it is beyond exciting. Our partnership with Solidworks means that shapes, once in CAD can be married to chassis in CAD, tested for every imaginable thing, with human forms inside for seating, visibility, and space... The last bit of the path from screen to part is almost there, meaning the tool (mold or form) is made from the CAD file and we've already proven this process!

This means that the ability to meet the design goal that I set high (swatch watch vehicle) is not a fairy tale. We HAVE to launch one model first and we have to make that model a real solid step ahead for FFR.

I cannot sleep at night. I can only feel that there is simply not enough time in the day to do all the fun and exciting things and to spend time with those whom I love.

Last night I drove up to boston as I heard an old friend was in town on business. I had dinner with Dave Borden, John George, and Gary Cheney (with wife Tatiana). Dave bought a Mk1 in 1996, he won 3rd place in SCCA Nationals autocross with it, He built a challenge car and won the 1st 2002 FFR Nats at Sonoma. Dave built a GTM that was featured everywhere and won numerous awards. Gary Cheney bought car #100 at the end of 1996 and has built 14 FFR cars over those years. Cheney raced in the FFR series, has won awards at SEMA and has stories too long to tell here. I was his friend when he married Tatiana and, like Dave, we've shared some great adventures. John George just returned from the 25 hrs of Thunderhill and spent some of the evening telling me the play-by-play. John races in the FFR series and has finished on the top 3 podium for four years! He is one of the best drivers I know.

That was dinner with friends... One night in my life. You guys are in good hands with the 818. I cannot sleep at night and that is a good thing!

[kach22i]

I'd like to take this time to reintroduce you to Scott Bradford:
Nice design, if anyone is at all interested in how it fits the template click the link below. DO NOT CLICK if you have no interest in it.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/overlay-Scott-Bradford-side-cropped.jpg

[mekeys]

It doesn't fit the template..LOL

Mel

[kach22i]

It doesn't fit the template..LOL

Mel
You gave it away Mel.

It's a strong enough design that it can survive the required modifications in my opinion. Pushing lines around should not be a heart breaking experience, it's a normal part of design development.

[bbatts]

I have found myself a little depressed these past few days after reading Dave was not on fire about the current designs. It's not that my favorite design is not a finalist, but that I now realize the final selection is not near. That being said, like others have said before me, I will respect and accept FFRs decisions and time frame. They have the experience and vision of final product that will represent them far into the future on a global stage. This is another major tipping point for them and it all has to be executed with professionalism and perfection. I'm just selfish and anxious to get my build going because I know I will be extremely happy the final body design, what ever it may be.

It is their integrity and vision here that is most important, not my selfish time-line.

BB
Nashville, TN

[Dave Smith]

Better to be on time and as promised than to BS people with fantasy dates and imaginary car specs. That said, we're not as far away as you might think!

[DrieStone]

Better to be on time and as promised than to BS people with fantasy dates and imaginary car specs. That said, we're not as far away as you might think!

Well the devil is in the details isn't it? I have no doubt we're going to see a lot of action in early 2012. Then everyone is going to be climbing the walls while your team work on all the little details that aren't exciting, but are vital to building the complete products.

Luckily I've reserved myself to the idea that I won't be getting my 818 until mid-2013. So, take your time and get it right! I'll still be here when its ready!

[RM1SepEx]

I can't wait to put the frame on my friend Mark's rotisserie!

[Best of the best]

First, best of the best, so Dave doesn't like your choice so you are going to go home, it won't look good at full size based on the other scaled design efforts. NO ONE goes into production without full scale model development and that would cost Factory 5 THOUSANDS of samolians. It's his cash and that route is closed. w/o seeing anything... your choice is to take your ball and go home, no sort of logic is involved in such a decision, good luck to you

Second, Voz is EXACTLY correct, they are a lean mean fighting machine... Dave's the grand poobah, he's shown us that he's willing to make the tough decisions, sit back and enjoy the ride. If you don't like the end product, wait for the next revision or buy something else. The technical prowress of this company means that design and fabrication are directly linked by computer integrated manufacturing and design.

Over these last month many have spoken of some sort of conspiracy concerning favoritism towards Jim's design. I talked face to face with Dave, that couldn't be any farther from the truth, he's most likely harder on Jim, he pays his salary and demands excellence from his employees, that's why they are so successful and have re-written the "kit car" industry. These guys are PASSIONATE about what they do.

I'm hoping to see something based on Xabier's as the roadster/track machine... it can be made better and I've seen them working on "tweaks" first hand when I visited, he's given info that says that he's working with RISD on the evolution of that shape

I absolutely hated Rodney's as it exists as the model, however the forum/Rodney "tweak" process has really turned that into a head turner. I'm thinking that if the aerodynamic studies work out well "good aero numbers" that it would make a kick *** coupe... he indicated that he's communicating with Rodney...

We have two more shapes that have quite good support, the Vantage and Whetstone designs, perhaps more work will be done on those. I love the vantage and think that the whetstone design would make the best aero coupe. Who knows, we wait and see, they will work the numbers and decide what fits each particular application best. Aero analysis FA, CD, drag, lift, etc... can be done right in solidworks! holy **** isn't that handy!

Jim's design is undergoing MASSIVE changes, as I type this, at full scale... who knows what will happen with this one

What will win out and when? Who knows

you can bet your life that these guys are 110% committed to bringing out something that will meet their business needs and goals... that in itself makes me want one, NOW!

My logic is simple...It's the same logic as the judges had. The design is beautiful and it works. That's why they voted on his design. This is a world car not for a community. The judges all came from a different background in terms of professionals and tastes. I am very happy to take my ball home with my $15K in my pocket. I'm out.

[Vman7]

THAT is a definite possibility. At this point I don't want to put anybody off but I wanted to be clear about where the work was right now, the fact that I've sorta chosen the affordable roadster config as the first launch model and that the future is wide open with respect to body designs Coupe, Track car, etc. I might go more towards Vmas design after the first model launches since the platform will be so USEABLE and in production. The most important thing is to get the body right, the second thing is to launch as soon as possible assuming the HARD and IMPORTANT pre-production testing and beta building is complete.

Dave, I totally agree with that thinking. I knew that you and FFR talked about that early on. Some where, I can't remember in which thread, I said for the most part that my design was leaning more toward the coupe and that it would probably be a possible choice done later or something to that effect or at least I think I did.....lol, hmmm maybe I just been thinking it along...lol (waving hands like Nicolas cage in the scene with Sean Connery in the sewer in the Movie The Rock) anyway, it all makes sense. Have to get a design out that fits all of FFR's requirements for that selling point, which then FFR can build on, which then can lead to other options like different body styles.

Anyhoot! I am going to talk about it some more in my Vantage Thread, on how I am going to go foward with the design with more detail.

David

[Oppenheimer]

Not everyone likes every design. So while I can relate to the guys that say 'this car is going to be fast, I'll build it no matter what it looks like', I can also relate to the guy that dislikes a design so much its a deal breaker if that is the design chosen.
But its difficult for me to relate to liking one design so much that if its not built, no other design will ever do.

Maybe this is the danger of the contest. Once we fall in love with a particular design, it can be disappointing if that design isn't built. But you never know, maybe your choice will be built later.

[Vman7]

Not everyone likes every design. So while I can relate to the guys that say 'this car is going to be fast, I'll build it no matter what it looks like', I can also relate to the guy that dislikes a design so much its a deal breaker if that is the design chosen.
But its difficult for me to relate to liking one design so much that if its not built, no other design will ever do.

Maybe this is the danger of the contest. Once we fall in love with a particular design, it can be disappointing if that design isn't built. But you never know, maybe your choice will be built later.

That's how I kind of felt about the '33 at first, somewhat liked it, but as I played around with some body mods here and there, I started to love it even more.

So for me if something is close enough, can always change things here and there to make it your own. That's what's great about a kit car (I hate using that term...lol).

As things are right now I would build Rodney's, Shawn Whetstone's, and of course my own design...hehe. Rodney's and Shawn's for the more modern exotic look, and mine for the more classic lines look. Hate to say it but if all 3 were offered today I would have a tough choice on picking one if I could only pick one. I guess it would depend on what mood I was in at the time....lol

[Xusia]

That's what's great about a kit car (I hate using that term...lol).

Me too. On the other hand, geek, nerd, etc., used to be terms with a negative connotation, but not any more. Factory Five has already forever changed the industry, so perhaps if we parade our bad @$$ Factory Five "kit cars" around and embrace the term, it will bring about the same change in public perception. Just a thought... :)

[cordycord]

From a manufacturing perspective, Shawn's design needs to be considered. It could be developed first as a barchetta--no top at all, which means no top expense. His coupe with the graceful targa pillars could actually be integrated as a one piece design. In other words, the whole windshield, "A" pillar and roof design could attach as one unit. That's a two-fer (three-fer as a targa), and something that could get the ball rolling...

[Benji]

Dave, perhaps to give some perspective are you able to give people some idea of what it cost to produce each of the 1/4 scale models?

Plenty of people are prepared to spend money when it's other people's money but when it comes to their own money, not so much.

For example, since Shawn's design is already in CAD, how much would it cost to print it out the biggest you can with the tools available to you?

[Oppenheimer]

Hate to say it but if all 3 were offered today I would have a tough choice on picking one if I could only pick one. I guess it would depend on what mood I was in at the time....lol

Add in Xabier, and I'm in the same boat. In my case, if all 4 really were avaiable to choose from, it would simply come down to which one I came closest to being able to fit into (headroom issue).



...since Shawn's design is already in CAD, how much would it cost to print it out the biggest you can with the tools available to you?

The original models served well as 'concept cars' to get a better sense of how they look in real life, with the goal of choosing one so that it could be refined to fit the template, be manufacturable, for cost, etc. Well maybe not perfectly well, a single design is yet to be chosen. But it seems to me at this point it would be a better idea to modify any not yet modeled designs to fit those goals before doing any new models. As much as I love the SW design, its my understanding the roof is currently too low for the FFR goal. I would think it best to adjust that before modeling it.

In any case, Dave has said they have a plan, and are working that plan. So at this point we are in wait-and-see mode (not that this will, or should, stop us from speculating or suggesting a better way, but hopefully it will cut down on the bickering).

[FFR-ADV]

THAT is a definite possibility. At this point I don't want to put anybody off but I wanted to be clear about where the work was right now, the fact that I've sorta chosen the affordable roadster config as the first launch model and that the future is wide open with respect to body designs Coupe, Track car, etc. I might go more towards Vmas design after the first model launches since the platform will be so USEABLE and in production. The most important thing is to get the body right, the second thing is to launch as soon as possible assuming the HARD and IMPORTANT pre-production testing and beta building is complete.

Hi Dave,

I am glad that you are considering Vmans design as a potential Coupe/Targa.

I understand that the team is on a tight timetable. Perhaps, Vman would be willing to work with Jim on his roadster design. Jim's automotive engineering and Solidworks skills combined with Vman's artist eyes could be a powerful combination. Now that is something that could cause me to willingly give up some sleep. I believe the two designs could meld together into a Roadster that can become a Targa/Coupe in the future (sum greater than the parts).

Perhaps mounting features could be integrated in the Roadster frame by intent so that either a rear deck could be swapped out for the Targa/Coupe rear deck, or a Targa bar subsequently attached securely to the Roadster deck. Sort of a Swatch Car.

I along with many others look forward to building an 818. Keep up the great work!

Happy Holidays to Everyone!!!