Build quality comes from the builder, not the manufacturer

[MB750]

Today my wife and I swung into the local classic car consignment dealership while she was having some maintenance done to her Mazda. I wanted to go because they had four Cobra replicas, two of which were FFR's, and now that I've done a LOT of research and am eager to get started on my build I just wanted to lay eyes on a few finished ones.

***The following comments are based on my experience building many different automotive things, but not necessarily Cobra replicas***

I can't believe how half-assed some people build these cars... One of the FFR builds there (they couldn't tell me which MK version it was) started off showing me it's high-school level driveway paint job. Sure, from 50' it looked ok, but as soon as you got anything closer than 10' away the glare from the showroom lights highlighted all the small pits and orange peel and faint scuffs all over the whole car. The stripes were even painted OVER the clear coat with no sanding to smooth out the transition. A few other points worth noting:

Body panel gaps varied over the whole car.

Run of the mill carb'd 302 and T5 (I'm guessing) with a fraying throttle cable that was like pushing the pedal into cold silly putty. Same with the clutch, which I'm guessing the tight bends in the cables had something to do with it. Hopefully they last through the test drive.

The rubber hoses going up to the master cylinders were caulked around as they exited the foot box. At least the caulk was black to match the foot box paint.

No coolant overflow bottle I could find anywhere. Might have been hidden though, but why hide it in case you need to do maintenance?

The bottom of the frame was literally 3" off the floor. Personal preference, I know, but I wonder how many times that frame has bounced off a speed bump.

Every square inch of the engine had a thin coating of oil on it.

Unfinished trunk.

To top it off, they wanted $61K for it. :rolleyes: Here's the link: https://www.streetsideclassics.com/vehicles/3671-tpa/1965-shelby-cobra-factory-five

Now as mentioned, I've never built a Cobra, but I have built and maintained many different road-worthy vehicles and I feel like I'm allowed to pass judgement here. This was some Grade A half-assed craftsmanship. Anyone with any pride in their work could have done better, or at least ask for help if it's outside your comfort zone. At least it generated much excitement in me to get started on mine.

[Rdone585]

You are absolutely correct. The builder is the craftsman that determines safety, quality, appeal, and reliability of the car. I have participated in building kits from at least 4 of the different replica vendors. I have seen somewhere between 150 and 250 of these cars finished from many of the existing replica manufacturers, no two were alike. I have ridden in some that were like riding in a luxury car, and at least one that I wanted out of as soon as we started the drive.

[GoDadGo]

I totally get the build quality thing and did my best as a 1st time builder to properly execute my project...Here is some examples that you may want to look at that sold on B.A.T. which will let you explore good and not so good executions:

https://bringatrailer.com/factory-five/?q=factory%20five

Also, for the record I never built a car before I built Redbone, but I do swing wrenches often...I took a lot of liberties, but tried to build to the level of the Master Builders that I've encountered on this forum...I totally feel that Their Advice and My Determination created my dream car.

https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/customer-steve-l-graduates-his-mk4-roadster/

My recommendation to you is to get the manual, read it a few times, create a build plan and build your dream...I can honestly say as a 1st time builder that the journey is worth taking and we know you can do it too.

Good Luck!

[Avalanche325]

You should watch "just Rolled In" on youtube. If you have any faith in the intelligence of your fellow humans, that will completely obliterate it. Especially the things they show that just came from a "professional" shop.

I agree that it is all up to the builder. There have been a few cases here on the forum where people have been shall we say persuaded to do something different.

I have never seen a classic car dealer, and I have been into many, that have prices that are reasonable.

After looking I do have to agree that that is a pretty rough paint job. If it looks bad in pictures under photo bay lights then it must be pretty bad. I have gel coat pictures of my car that look better.

[rich grsc]

Right, lets bash the guy that can't afford a $10,000 paint job and does it himself, who doesn't have $15,000 for a new engine & transmission. Those kind of people don't deserve to have a car like this, only the rich self-righteous. :rolleyes:
Thought this was about building your own Cobra car, not a BMW, Porsche, I'm better than everyone else group. :(

[Hoooper]

Dont forget, the builder was building it to THEIR specs, not yours. For all you know they were building it with a 1 month timeline and $15k budget, so they could drive it hard and not worry about the pretty paint job or the chrome on the engine. Many of these are built just to be ogled in a parking lot but a lot of others are built to put smiles on the owner's face while DRIVING.

[MB750]

You should watch "just Rolled In" on youtube. If you have any faith in the intelligence of your fellow humans, that will completely obliterate it. Especially the things they show that just came from a "professional" shop.

HA! Yes, I watch every episode, and roll my eyes at all of them. Especially the ones with bullet holes and frames basically falling apart. :eek:

[MB750]

Right, lets bash the guy that can't afford a $10,000 paint job and does it himself, who doesn't have $15,000 for a new engine & transmission. Those kind of people don't deserve to have a car like this, only the rich self-righteous. :rolleyes:
Thought this was about building your own Cobra car, not a BMW, Porsche, I'm better than everyone else group. :(

I wonder if this forum is ever going to get used to your brand of verbal rays of sunshine. I have yet to read something non-snarky from you. Ever thought about taking Celexa? Or not watching national news channels? Are you constantly in pain? You really come off as a miserable person over the internet.

There's a difference between paying someone exorbitant amounts of money to do something for you, and paying little money to do the same thing yourself. These being KIT cars, I'm in the latter camp, I just put more effort and quality into the end product than others. It's called work ethic, and I put a lot of pride into mine. It's how my dad taught me.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I’ve said before that I get to see them without their clothes on since I pull the bodies off of every one that comes into my shop. Some look better when they’re dressed than they do undressed (I’m sure we all can think of a similar situation in life where this is also true ;)). Over the years I have found that sometimes the ones that are the least aesthetically perfect run and drive the best! Others are wearing lots of eye candy to make a showing at the cruise in. Neither is right or wrong, just demonstrating different priorities or desires or levels of expertise from the builder. Build it for YOU, not the armchair critic who doesn’t have one.

Jeff

[john42]

I’ve said before that I get to see them without their clothes on since I pull the bodies off of every one that comes into my shop. Some look better when they’re dressed than they do undressed (I’m sure we all can think of a similar situation in life where this is also true ;)). Over the years I have found that sometimes the ones that are the least aesthetically perfect run and drive the best! Others are wearing lots of eye candy to make a showing at the cruise in. Neither is right or wrong, just demonstrating different priorities or desires or levels of expertise from the builder. Build it for YOU, not the armchair critic who doesn’t have one.

Jeff

Ya mine sure ain't pretty. Even Dave Smith said, "is that a 50/50 paint job? 50% painted, looks good from 50 feet?" It's a challenge car that is converted to be street legal. It's been raced hard and has had lots of repairs over the years. I'll say one thing tho, it's very dialed in and handles like a dream. Also, being a challenge car with NASA and SCCA stickers all over it, as well as track inspection stickers up and down the roll bars... At car shows it always draws a crowd. "Is that a real race car?" Is the common question. I have a nice 3 ring binder with all the racing records. :-) Not something a showroom pretty Cobra has. Too each their own right! Anyway to the OP... ya for the $61k price they want for that, it should be damn near perfect and that one is far from it. If it were $30-35k then.. ya that would make much more sense.

[Jeff Kleiner]

..;If it were $30-35k then.. ya that would make much more sense.

Unless the photos are hiding some significant issues in the current market that is a low to mid 40s car (it’s a Mk3 by the way). The dealer knows that but they always list them high—-if someone dropped 42K on the desk at Streetside they’d slap a “SOLD” sticker on the windshield.

Jeff

[svassh]

Boy, hope you guys never lay eyes on mine. Lots of character flaws. I did not build or paint it but I like to say I made it run right. But that doesn't mean it didn't run right for the original builder. I believe mine was painted by its builder likely outside or at least not in a paint booth. I have embraced the flaws and tweaked the car's looks to more resemble a veteran road race car.

BUT I do own other more valuable cars currently and in the past however I have already informed my wife - "If I am ever medically incapacitated and you need money, sell my Cobra last in case I recover"

It is by far the most fun car I have ever owned and I never worry about scratches or rock chips, having a great stereo etc just how it runs and drives.

172261

[rich grsc]

I wonder if this forum is ever going to get used to your brand of verbal rays of sunshine. I have yet to read something non-snarky from you. Ever thought about taking Celexa? Or not watching national news channels? Are you constantly in pain? You really come off as a miserable person over the internet.

There's a difference between paying someone exorbitant amounts of money to do something for you, and paying little money to do the same thing yourself. These being KIT cars, I'm in the latter camp, I just put more effort and quality into the end product than others. It's called work ethic, and I put a lot of pride into mine. It's how my dad taught me.

Nothing snarky about my post, it's a fact. You don't have one yet, but you're qualified to criticize:rolleyes: someone else's build. Hope you never see mine cause she's full of hard driving and fun, ain't no trailer queen.
If you want to say it's way over priced, thats one thing, but you didn't say that. You think looks define the car.

[steno]

Even though my car has close to 95k on the clock, I still get compliments. She runs great and am glad that nobody can see behind the dash! It even scares me! It just runs!!

[drewr]

Run of the mill carb'd 302

Nothing wrong with a 302, now. Smokin' little engine that has won a lot of races on both road course and drag strip! We wouldn't care about these cars at all without the 289/302 platform. Believe it or not, some people actually choose to put a 302 in their dream car.

[John Ibele]

Good points about basic roadworthiness vs. show worthiness. I think the emphasis on fit and finish has gone up in more recent years for multiple reasons. More independent vendors offering enhancements specifically designed for the roadster, way more information available through this or the other forum, and perhaps a bit of a shell game as people look at build threads, and adopt a higher standard for fit and finish than they initially had in mind. That's all to the benefit of anyone who wants to sell their roadster, and of particular benefit to owners of older cars which may have been built when a different standard of finish was the norm.

That's completely separate from roadworthiness, where many of the FFR pictures in the build manual (particularly older versions) show a level of finish that wouldn't cut it with many today, and yet I'm sure their assembled prototypes were and are as roadworthy as any.

[Joel Hauser]

I guess I fall into the group of people the original poster refers to as a "half-assed builders" who's "high-school level driveway paint job" looks good from 50 feet. And I've only got 250 HP coming out of a basket case of a 1996 mustang. I'm neither a mechanic nor an artist. But I did every bit of work on my car (with the exception of machining the block) myself, and I'm proud of it. I tried to keep my hobby car within my budget because it is, after all, just a hobby and a toy. I smile every time I get behind the wheel, knowing I built it. 99% of the people who see my car are more than complimentary. In fact I only remember one time when someone made a snide remark. I was in a parking lot when a guy pulls up along side me in his brand new luxury pickup. As he's walking by he says, "is that an MGA?" followed by "you've got a run in the paint." I would have liked to have said, "but at least I'm not fat and bald, like you" but I'm sure he would have made a mess of me, so I kept my mouth shut. His wife, who was still sitting in the truck , whispered to me, "I think it's beautiful."
Build your car the way you want, as best you can, within your budget. That's what this hobby is all about.

[nucjd19]

As a side note Jeff Kleiner was on the phone helping me through an issue when I was building and he said " There will be things on your car that bother you that no one else will ever see or notice. So don't worry about it. It is normal. " That was great advice and I remind myself when I notice something subtle that irritates me but would never be noticed by someone else. I am sure the expert builders on this site will be the first to tell you that there are things on their builds that irritate them and they could have done better. It is sort of like golf. You can always have done something better. The law of diminishing returns and everything..... The best part about having a Roadster is creating special relationships with folks like Jeff :)

[i.e.427]

Build quality????? :rolleyes:

Yeah, hold my beer.

[narly1]

The only things that should never be compromised in these builds are the ones that affect safety.

Everything else is up to the builder factoring in the resources they have available and their vision for the project.

One part of the "vision" aspect that I will comment on is the idea of building for yourself vs the car show critics/resale market.

My comment being that either is acceptable, with the caveat of being clear in your own head as to your objective. Recognize that when the day comes when you have to part ways with your car (and make no mistake that day will come) that the choices you made will affect what its resale value is.

Earl

[GoDadGo]

As a first time builder, my recommendation is to simply do your best and ask for assistance when you realize you are short on skills and/or talent...For me I was inspired by many experts builders on this forum and was given a tremendous amount of advice from Jeff Kleiner, Paul B. (Edwardb) and Henry R. (65 Cobra Dude)...If you do your best and ask for assistance when you come up short, then your car will be the best that it can be.

As an example of coming up short, I had to bring in my pal Sammy to do the bodywork...It is what he's been doing for a living for 30-Plus years and I'm thankful for his skills, knowledge and attention to little details that really made a big difference...I learned a lot and realized that the first thing that everybody sees is the paint, fit and finish before they see anything else...I also learned how to see with the tips of my fingers, always sand in an X-Pattern and to not over-catalyze the body filler.

Do Your Best & The Results Will Be Your Best!

OCD Parting Line Removal:
https://youtu.be/_3sLamdkIFg

OCD Parting Line Smoothing:
https://youtu.be/meBYeI96_A8

Final Bodywork Video:
https://youtu.be/po1Bb2_XDDk

Good Luck Gang & Keep Building The Best Cars On The Planet!

[mrmustang]

From the FAQ on how to buy a used Cobra:

"Whether your spending $22,000, or $150,000 should not matter at this point, as I've personally seen beautiful, well built cars at $22,000, and some truly horrible cars with over $100,000 in to the build."


Bill S.

[ggunter]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yes, the paint needs attention. Probably a wet sand and buff and it would look 100% better. But you know what? If the builder took a chance and painted it, and it was his first-time painting, I give him a lot of credit for trying something new. Finishing one of these cars to make it look like the Jeff's make them look takes an enormous amount of time and those guys have big props from me. Everybody has a different level of build expertise. We all started somewhere and learned along the way. The only thing I won't tolerate is wire nuts:(

[KDubU]

From the FAQ on how to buy a used Cobra:

"Whether your spending $22,000, or $150,000 should not matter at this point, as I've personally seen beautiful, well built cars at $22,000, and some truly horrible cars with over $100,000 in to the build."


Bill S.

Take this as gospel as Bill has seen a lot of replicas, all makes, all colours and everything in-between.

[Alan_C]

Something to consider, just because someone puts out a shingle and runs a business, does not necessarily make them a professional. Many builders here build works of art, something most shops can't do simply because it takes too much time to be profitable. A good amateur builder can and many times does build superior cars than the "professionally" built ones. Amateur or professional it comes down to attention to detail and doing it right. Throughout my build I kept a single fact squarely in mind, do it right as the end result can kill you if you don't.

[TMartinLVNV]

I wonder if this forum is ever going to get used to your brand of verbal rays of sunshine. I have yet to read something non-snarky from you. Ever thought about taking Celexa? Or not watching national news channels? Are you constantly in pain? You really come off as a miserable person over the internet.

There's a difference between paying someone exorbitant amounts of money to do something for you, and paying little money to do the same thing yourself. These being KIT cars, I'm in the latter camp, I just put more effort and quality into the end product than others. It's called work ethic, and I put a lot of pride into mine. It's how my dad taught me.

MB, I put rich grsc on my "Ignore Posts" list. It makes the forum a much friendly and helpful place.

[skidd]

Just playing a little devils advocate here.
Like many of us, I've been in love with the Shelby Cobra for as long as I can remember.
9 years old with my dad at a car show, when I got a good-up-close look at a Cobra, and I was HOOKED!! It was an old Cardiac Cobra Replica.
What a gorgeous machine! And this one in particular was very very clean! Even for the not-to -keen eyes of a 9 year old.
I had another opportunity to look at a Cobra up close after that time (I was about 18), and it was brilliant!!
I've put this car on a pedestal and KEPT IT THERE!! This car can do NO WRONG!!!

The year before I ordered by F5 kit, I saw a Cobra forsale at a near-by used car dealer.
Naturally, I pulled in to get a good look at it. ..
.. wow .. Was I ever caught off guard!! It was very very average, and really lacked the level of finish I expected.
I was honestly a little disappointed in it. My "Idol" was flawed!! :(

That was when I realized, we're just average Joes building our dream cars! Duh!!
And not everybody has the same skilz, nor bank-account, nor desire to build a show-car!
I mean, that is the whole idea behind building these right!! Do it your way!
I proceeded to build my car MY WAY!! And I won't apologize for any of my choices!

my 02c

[mrmustang]

I want to apologize up front to anyone else reading this thread for my response below. I try not to get caught up in such nonsense, but in this case, a clarification to the quoted end user was much needed to bring a sense of civility back to this thread and the forum as a whole.


MB, I put rich grsc on my "Ignore Posts" list. It makes the forum a much friendly and helpful place.

1st, you need to reread his initial post in this thread, as you misread or misunderstood what he was actually saying

2nd, a remark such as yours, as I quoted above, is beyond snarky and paints you as the rude and obnoxious one here on this thread. Sorry, but that is exactly how it reads, no misunderstanding what so ever in your bad attitude.

3rd, while we all cannot agree with each other 100% of the time, a bit of decorum and civility is expected.

Bill S.

[TMartinLVNV]

I'll respond to Bill privately. I have nothing else to say on this matter publicly.

[Avalanche325]

I think it is more about the asking price than anything.

I did say that the paint looks rough, and I probably should have followed the "If you don't have anything nice to say......" rule. In my head, I was not critiquing some dudes car. I was critiquing a car for sale at a dealer for $61,000. Maybe that is spitting hairs.

I will also say, from experience, that painting it yourself, in your garage, and being the first car you have ever painted is not an excuse for a bad paint job. It is an excuse for spending a looooong time to get it done.

[Al_C]

As I read through all the comments on this post I knew there was nothing that I could really add to it. I agree with the original premise. So why am I even posting anything? The answer is that I'm happy with what I did, and I hope you are happy with your build. Does my car have issues? Absolutely. Do I care? Only when I find one that affects safety. My car is custom built for me. I built it so I can drive it and enjoy it. And I do. Thanks for putting up with me. :D