Fuel tank installation problem

[Malibu46pt]

Trying to install the fuel tank. The brackets don’t seem to fit the profile of the tank. Not even sure they are long enough. Hesitant to start bending on them. Any suggestions

[nucjd19]

Yea....some folks seem to make them fit without a problem and some guys head over to ACE Hardware and pick up some longer bolts. I was in the later camp. Driver side fit but the passenger side was a no go for me so it was a trip to ACE Hardware.

[egchewy79]

Bend the straps and get a longer bolt for the PS. Bend the tab to prevent the bolt from getting pulled crooked

[Jeff Kleiner]

And make sure that you flatten the flange on the tank.

Jeff

[mladen]

Check out this post in my build thread. I ran into several issues. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?43812-Mladen-s-MK4-Build-Thread&p=502008&viewfull=1#post502008

I not only needed to flatten the flange but bend it in the opposite direction. This allowed the frame member to make contact cleanly, but also made the edge clear the bolt. What was happening when it was flat was the bolt would be pulling the tank up, and the strap wasn't making contact with the plastic bottom cover so it would flap around. I also needed to make quite a few adjustments to the shape of the straps, straightening some corners and making new ones, in order for it to contour properly around the whole thing. It was basically a couple of days of fidgeting to get it right.

[Blessidsoul12]

The fuel tank strapping/bolting/mounting process just friggin' sucks. Sorry you're having trouble.

[michael everson]

Surprised you guys are having such issues. Usually takes 10 minutes to install the tank. Flatten the flange, mount the straps from the back, hoist the tank up with a ratcheting strap then bolt the front straps. I do use a longer bolt than FFR supplies on the passenger side front.
Mike

[OSU Cowboy]

An excellent example of why I have great difficulty in referring to my MK3.1 build as a "kit".

A "Kit" sounds like it's an erector set. Fully assembled using a phillips head screw driver and a set of allen wrenches, with clear detailed instructions each step of the way.

I am no master mechanic, and there is nothing on my car that has not been put together and taken back apart at least 3 times. Thankfully I attended Build School, thus learning some of the tricks and techniques such as gas tank installation.

When I am out and about, and someone walks up to me asking if my car is or was a "kit" - I offer the above explanation and kindly let them know that no - it didn't feel like a "kit" when I built it. It is a "replica".

[John Ibele]

Surprised you guys are having such issues. Usually takes 10 minutes to install the tank. Flatten the flange, mount the straps from the back, hoist the tank up with a ratcheting strap then bolt the front straps. I do use a longer bolt than FFR supplies on the passenger side front.
Mike

Mike, I got a chuckle out of this one. You've done so many of these you forgot what the first one was like! Don't forget there's no 'usually' for the first time builder.

[Jeff Kleiner]

An excellent example of why I have great difficulty in referring to my MK3.1 build as a "kit".

A "Kit" sounds like it's an erector set. Fully assembled using a phillips head screw driver and a set of allen wrenches, with clear detailed instructions each step of the way.

I am no master mechanic, and there is nothing on my car that has not been put together and taken back apart at least 3 times. Thankfully I attended Build School, thus learning some of the tricks and techniques such as gas tank installation.

When I am out and about, and someone walks up to me asking if my car is or was a "kit" - I offer the above explanation and kindly let them know that no - it didn't feel like a "kit" when I built it. It is a "replica".

Some years ago I was talking to a wise man (my buddy Jeff da' Bat Miller) who said "There is a difference between being a car builder and a car assembler". That nailed it! If someone goes into this expecting it all to go together like Legos or an IKEA bookshelf they are are in for a rude awakening and are going to wind up frustrated, baffled and sorely disappointed.

Jeff

[edwardb]

This is an interesting topic for me and comments FWIW. And I'm not nearly as succinct as my friend Mr. Kleiner. To me, it's almost entirely about expectations. I enjoying taking my builds to shows, cars and coffees, etc. mainly because I enjoy talking with folks about cars, builds, etc. Very frequently, people see the Factory Five name and ask what it was like to put it together. My answer is always the same. It's not a Lego kit or snap together model car kit. Not being an Erector set is another apt comparison. I tell people there will be a whole bunch that goes together with little effort. But there will be challenges where studying, researching, asking for help, and just overall critical thinking is necessary. Yes, a certain degree of mechanical aptitude is required. But maybe even as much as that is the motivation to dig in and solve problems. When part A doesn't fit into tab B, what are you going to do? Blame Factory Five or figure it out? Don't get me wrong. They're not perfect, and will admit to that. I've found myself shaking my head more than once asking what were they thinking over something. I've found their support to be as good as any company I've ever dealt with. But they're a small company and only have so much bandwidth.

There are two major parts to this IMO. These builds allow a wide variation in components. In addition to the usual part tolerances, tolerance build-ups, etc. Whether it's engines, transmissions, brakes, fuel setups, you name it. With every one of those there will be variations that you as the builder will need to figure out. Related to this is the expectation that the build manual will detail every one of these parts combinations and provide step-by-step instructions for each. It just doesn't. If that's the expectation, disappointment will follow. I will also add that a rather significant number of posts and issues on this forum are from things that are covered in the manual. And whether due to not studying or just plain missing it is the reason, the fact is a 3-inch think build manual isn't the solution.

At the end of the day, for me anyway, it comes down to these builds are appropriate for certain people and not for others. And again I'll get back to the issue of expectations. I say that will all due respect for everyone who takes one on. This gas tank situation is a good example. Why is it that a relatively simple part of the build is no issue for some but a challenge for others? Again with all due respect. Some see the minor tweaks needed along the way (bending the straps, getting the bolts in, etc.) as a typical activity. Others don't.

Final comments. In my travels, I've run across other brands of "kit cars" (including some that are much more expensive) and the attributes are very similar. There will be challenges along the way and it takes the right motivation, mindset, and expectation to dive it and make it work. And FWIW, again at least my observation, Factory Five has less of this than others I've seen. No one is making a snap together kit car. I'm about to embark on another kit build in a totally different space. I've already done enough reading, studying, reading forums, watching videos, etc. to learn the dynamics are surprisingly similar. Which I've found very interesting.

[ggunter]

This "kit" goes together remarkably well, in my opinion. Of course there are bumps in the road, but I look at each one of them as an engineering challenge. Look at the issue, study it. Then fix it. Some people can look at mechanical things and almost instinctively know which course of action to take to rectify the situation. When I look back a my build there were very few items that needed any real modification because I think FFR has done a pretty darn good job of engineering this "kit". Please understand that this is not a put down of people who have limited mechanical background. We all started somewhere. Some things just come easier to one person than the next. My achilles' heel are computers. When someone tells me I have to data log something they may as well say it in Russian, because at that point I'm lost.

[rich grsc]

This is an interesting topic for me and comments FWIW. And I'm not nearly as succinct as my friend Mr. Kleiner. To me, it's almost entirely about expectations. I enjoying taking my builds to shows, cars and coffees, etc. mainly because I enjoy talking with folks about cars, builds, etc. Very frequently, people see the Factory Five name and ask what it was like to put it together. My answer is always the same. It's not a Lego kit or snap together model car kit. Not being an Erector set is another apt comparison. I tell people there will be a whole bunch that goes together with little effort. But there will be challenges where studying, researching, asking for help, and just overall critical thinking is necessary. Yes, a certain degree of mechanical aptitude is required. But maybe even as much as that is the motivation to dig in and solve problems. When part A doesn't fit into tab B, what are you going to do? Blame Factory Five or figure it out? Don't get me wrong. They're not perfect, and will admit to that. I've found myself shaking my head more than once asking what were they thinking over something. I've found their support to be as good as any company I've ever dealt with. But they're a small company and only have so much bandwidth.

There are two major parts to this IMO. These builds allow a wide variation in components. In addition to the usual part tolerances, tolerance build-ups, etc. Whether it's engines, transmissions, brakes, fuel setups, you name it. With every one of those there will be variations that you as the builder will need to figure out. Related to this is the expectation that the build manual will detail every one of these parts combinations and provide step-by-step instructions for each. It just doesn't. If that's the expectation, disappointment will follow. I will also add that a rather significant number of posts and issues on this forum are from things that are covered in the manual. And whether due to not studying or just plain missing it is the reason, the fact is a 3-inch think build manual isn't the solution.

At the end of the day, for me anyway, it comes down to these builds are appropriate for certain people and not for others. And again I'll get back to the issue of expectations. I say that will all due respect for everyone who takes one on. This gas tank situation is a good example. Why is it that a relatively simple part of the build is no issue for some but a challenge for others? Again with all due respect. Some see the minor tweaks needed along the way (bending the straps, getting the bolts in, etc.) as a typical activity. Others don't.

Final comments. In my travels, I've run across other brands of "kit cars" (including some that are much more expensive) and the attributes are very similar. There will be challenges along the way and it takes the right motivation, mindset, and expectation to dive it and make it work. And FWIW, again at least my observation, Factory Five has less of this than others I've seen. No one is making a snap together kit car. I'm about to embark on another kit build in a totally different space. I've already done enough reading, studying, reading forums, watching videos, etc. to learn the dynamics are surprisingly similar. Which I've found very interesting.
Perfectly on point. :D It just helps to have that "I can do this, I will figure this out myself" attitude. I didn't even find the FFR 'forum's' till I started on my second build. A 3" thick manual, WOW :eek:, my first was just barely an inch, which I must have read at least 3x. I will admit, at 70+ years old I have 60 yrs of working on stuff.

data log, what's that? sounds like martian to me :rolleyes:

[dbo_texas]

I just ran into this issue on my build, and as EdwardB pointed out, I had forgotten flatten the bent flanges on the tank before installing. After doing this, I was able to get the DS bolt in, but still couldn't get the PS bolt through the strap. In the end I got longer bolts and this made it super easy. If interested check out post #80-#83 on my thread HERE (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?40632-ATX-MKIV-9644-Coyote-Build-Thread-(Index-Post-1)&p=502607&viewfull=1#post502607). I used a 2 1/2" bolt on the DS, and 3" bolt on the PS (both are 3/8-16 thread size).

[JohnK]

I agree 100% with the comments that it's not an erector set, and that one should expect to face some problems they'll need to solve when building one of these cars.

However, to play devil's advocate for a moment... for a first-time builder it's sometimes tough to know if the problem you're facing requires going off-script or is just user error. Taking the fuel tank install as an example. Nearly everyone comments that they have to use longer bolts. Ignoring for a moment the obvious question of why doesn't FFR just provide longer bolts to begin with if this has been a known issue for a ver long time... for a first-time builder like myself, I would tend to stare at this situation for quite a while trying to figure out whether I'm doing something wrong before finally getting longer bolts. The forum is always a great resource when trying to figure out those "yeah, they're all like that" situations where you need to deviate from instructions. But I've also seen plenty of situations where people assume something is wrong and devise all sorts of intricate, unnecessary and sometimes unsafe "solutions" to "problems" that were just an inability to follow instructions properly.

So yeah, there will be times where you need to get creative to solve problems. But this is a pretty well-evolved product and I would tend to start with asking myself if I'm doing something wrong before going off script.

[Tooth]

It's funny. There are some parts of the build, like the gas tank that I had no issue with. Then there's some parts of the build that kick my butt. I think it's part of the fun. The parts that kick my butt seem to be times when I'm just making something straight forward more difficult than it needs to be. I'm real good at that.

[Namrups]

My two cents as a first time builder.

Before I decided to purchase I had tried to find information on the FF kits. Not having built a car before I wanted to convince myself that I could accomplish something like this. I found the FF build forum. After briefly reading thru some of the different model builds I decided on the coupe for my project. I found EdwardB's build thread and read thru it from start to finish more than once. This convinced me that I could accomplish this. It also highlighted the fact that these are not "leggo kits" that fit perfectly. Understanding that, after I put down my deposit, I downloaded the build manual, printed it out and put it into a three ring binder. When I came across issues that others talked about in their builds I would make notes in my build manual. I also had an additional binder that I used to keep printouts of different things I saw and read in others builds. Now when I get to something that doesn't work like it should I can fall back on the notes and printouts. If I can't solve the issue this way then a post on the forum or a PM to another builder in most cases works to solve the issue.

Already knowing that the fuel tank might be an issue I was able to make sure I bent the lips flat and that I might need longer bolts. This allowed me to do a quick mock up to see if the bolts were to shot or not. There was no question about if I was doing something right or wrong. No time wasted pondering the issue. I was one of the lucky ones with no issues with the FF bolts. They were long enough.

I guess my point is the more prepared you can be the less an issue can jump up and bite you. I don't know what I don't know so there will be times I will run across something I have not seen before but I'm hoping those are few and far between.

[John Ibele]

Okay, JohnK and I must have some sort of mind-meld going on ... I wrote this before seeing his response, so figure I'll simply post what I wrote anyway, although he's covered it well. In response to Paul's post ...




This is an interesting topic for me and comments FWIW. And I'm not nearly as succinct as my friend Mr. Kleiner. To me, it's almost entirely about expectations. I enjoying taking my builds to shows, cars and coffees, etc. mainly because I enjoy talking with folks about cars, builds, etc. Very frequently, people see the Factory Five name and ask what it was like to put it together. My answer is always the same. It's not a Lego kit or snap together model car kit. Not being an Erector set is another apt comparison. I tell people there will be a whole bunch that goes together with little effort. But there will be challenges where studying, researching, asking for help, and just overall critical thinking is necessary. Yes, a certain degree of mechanical aptitude is required. But maybe even as much as that is the motivation to dig in and solve problems. When part A doesn't fit into tab B, what are you going to do? Blame Factory Five or figure it out? Don't get me wrong. They're not perfect, and will admit to that. I've found myself shaking my head more than once asking what were they thinking over something. I've found their support to be as good as any company I've ever dealt with. But they're a small company and only have so much bandwidth.

There are two major parts to this IMO. These builds allow a wide variation in components. In addition to the usual part tolerances, tolerance build-ups, etc. Whether it's engines, transmissions, brakes, fuel setups, you name it. With every one of those there will be variations that you as the builder will need to figure out. Related to this is the expectation that the build manual will detail every one of these parts combinations and provide step-by-step instructions for each. It just doesn't. If that's the expectation, disappointment will follow. I will also add that a rather significant number of posts and issues on this forum are from things that are covered in the manual. And whether due to not studying or just plain missing it is the reason, the fact is a 3-inch think build manual isn't the solution.

At the end of the day, for me anyway, it comes down to these builds are appropriate for certain people and not for others. And again I'll get back to the issue of expectations. I say that will all due respect for everyone who takes one on. This gas tank situation is a good example. Why is it that a relatively simple part of the build is no issue for some but a challenge for others? Again with all due respect. Some see the minor tweaks needed along the way (bending the straps, getting the bolts in, etc.) as a typical activity. Others don't.

Final comments. In my travels, I've run across other brands of "kit cars" (including some that are much more expensive) and the attributes are very similar. There will be challenges along the way and it takes the right motivation, mindset, and expectation to dive it and make it work. And FWIW, again at least my observation, Factory Five has less of this than others I've seen. No one is making a snap together kit car. I'm about to embark on another kit build in a totally different space. I've already done enough reading, studying, reading forums, watching videos, etc. to learn the dynamics are surprisingly similar. Which I've found very interesting.


Good comments, Paul, and I agree, an interesting topic. You hit on a subtext that runs through many questions on the forum, many already covered in previous posts and available in a simple search, others covered directly in the manual. I completely agree with your perspective on what should be expected of a kit, and a manual, from a company like FFR. I think they continue to do a fine job with support. And while the build comes with a long list of challenges for all the reasons you mentioned, the sense of pride that comes from the build - at least for me - is directly connected to the challenges encountered, and the solutions I found and executed. And perhaps the greatest points of pride are for those areas of the build that are least like an erector set.

But, I think a reminder about the mindset of the first time builder is needed here. The typical response of a first-time builder to a challenge is not, "should I blame FFR or figure it out?" Rather, it's, "should it really be this way, or am I doing something wrong?" Coming relatively early in the build, it's possible the gas tank is the first problem encountered for many that doesn't seem like an erector set. And it does take a while to get calibrated to what things need some ingenuity to solve, and what things you must just be doing wrong.

One case in point - I still cringe when I think about the multiple hours of hand-wringing that came before bending a tab on one of the IRS LCA's to get a bushing to fit. Not reflective of either my engineering or my practical knowledge, but there you go. Today, that would be 5 seconds with a long lever, a tweak, and moving on to the next thing in the build. Mild steel is not going to break with a 5* bend, and the PC won't flake off. But I just didn't put that together that well at the time. We all have moments like that. In retrospect, that was a struggle over what to expect of FFR and the kit, and what to expect of myself. When I got to the gas tank, it was following the manual, struggling a bit with the PS strap, checking the forum, a quick trip to Ace for a longer bolt, and in it went. So no big deal - but still not 10 minutes.

So I'll continue to occasionally indulge the first time builder with answers to questions that can fairly easily be found elsewhere or 'simply' noodled out with a bit of brain work, knowing that sometimes a simple point in the right direction or a simple reminder is all that's needed to get back on track.

[John Ibele]

I really need to work on brevity.

Key first-time builder question: which parts of the build are like an erector set, and which are not?

Answer: you'll need to figure that out on your own :p

[Theshandman]

...some guys head over to ACE Hardware ...so it was a trip to ACE Hardware.
LOL. Yep. My local Ace guy told me that due to all the screws, bolts, nuts, stuff I've purchased there, he is interested in buying my car once completed. After all, "if it has all that Ace stuff, it must be good!" ;)

[OSU Cowboy]

I kept all of my build receipts over the 11 years of time that it took me to build my MK3.1. The big reasons why it took 11 years were - work in corporate America; family; and never wanting to feel as if I was slogging through the build. I never wanted it to feel like "work" - and any time it started feeling that way I put up the tools and turned off the lights. There would be 9 month periods of time where I didn't turn a tap on the car. Usually during those times I'd be researching how to do this or that by reading this form and the other one intently.

Back to the point of "receipts". I went through all of them 6 or 9 months back. I was shocked to discover that I'd spent nearly $1500 at Ace Hardware building the car. There is lots of stainless hardware in my build - 10 bucks here and 25 bucks there. It really added up over time.

[burchfieldb]

I have a question for the brain trust on this topic. Do these straps require bending around the frame tube or do I have the wrong straps? I wanted to ask before I went drastic on the straps.176613

[edwardb]

I have a question for the brain trust on this topic. Do these straps require bending around the frame tube or do I have the wrong straps? I wanted to ask before I went drastic on the straps.176613

Yes, bend them as necessary. But ideally with the tank setting in place so you know how much to bend. Also make sure (again) you have the flange on the tank flattened where it hits the 3/4" tubes and plastic bumpers. It's in the manual and earlier in this thread. But many miss it. So just throwing out the reminder.

[racingandfishing]

I'm about to embark on another kit build in a totally different space. I've already done enough reading, studying, reading forums, watching videos, etc. to learn the dynamics are surprisingly similar. Which I've found very interesting.

A kit airplane perhaps?!!!

[burchfieldb]

I have a question for the brain trust on this topic. Do these straps require bending around the frame tube or do I have the wrong straps? I wanted to ask before I went drastic on the straps.176613

[rich grsc]

The same question you asked an hour ago?

[burchfieldb]

The same question you asked an hour ago?

Apparently, not sure why it posted twice.:rolleyes:

[burchfieldb]

Yes, bend them as necessary. But ideally with the tank setting in place so you know how much to bend. Also make sure (again) you have the flange on the tank flattened where it hits the 3/4" tubes and plastic bumpers. It's in the manual and earlier in this thread. But many miss it. So just throwing out the reminder.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

[burchfieldb]

Yes, bend them as necessary. But ideally with the tank setting in place so you know how much to bend. Also make sure (again) you have the flange on the tank flattened where it hits the 3/4" tubes and plastic bumpers. It's in the manual and earlier in this thread. But many miss it. So just throwing out the reminder.

Not bad, once you accept the fact that you will be repainting the straps when the paint cracks from bending. Or in my case, repainting anyways, since one was only painted on one side.;) All in all about a 30 min job.