Ignition Issue - Back on the Road!

[Blitzboy54]

My car now has about 1500 miles on it. It generally runs great. Very smooth, lots of power and fun to drive. The only mechanical change I've made is I replaced the external fuel pump with an in tank and fixed a leaky pinion seal. I have about 850 miles on it since both.

At the end of last week I drove to work, at lunch time myself and a work friend got in and as I was backing out the drivers side exhaust was making a strange noise. Real low tone popping and as I pulled away it was clearly not right. It was definitely only on the drivers side pipe. The car was sluggish and sounded like I had a cylinder misfire. It then corrected itself. I thought it was weird but I continued. As we got under way it started again. I applied power and as it the accelerated the tone changed back to normal and it didn't happen again the rest of the day. I got it home and then started packing for our camping weekend and forgot about it if I'm being honest.

The next week it started again. It definitely feels like I was dragging a cylinder. When it happens the power is sluggish and the idle is a bit of a mess and it is only on the drivers side. So I get home and hook up the hand held. The O2 is normal, and the timing is correct. I set the static timing to 20 degrees and hit it with a timing light it's spot on.

I cooled the engine down and pulled all the plugs, they looked fine and the wires look fine. I have cold race plugs but they are not fowled in any way. The wires look fine too. I though that maybe the #8 was not seated all the way so I made sure they were all fully plugged in and went out for a spin. It ran great! Yay, problem solved!

The next morning I decide to again take it to work and get a half mile down the road before it happened again. Same deal, if you apply power it starts firing but once you slow down it starts intermittently dragging. the intermittent part is what has me confused. Fuel, Air Spark. Has to be one of them. The fuel is throttle body so unlikely to only affect one cylinder. I put a pressure gauge on the return and it's normal. No sign of corrosion or a blocked fuel line. Air filter is good.

So I pulled my distributor cap and look what I found.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=171952&d=1662239509

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=171953&d=1662239509

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=171954&d=1662239509


I have cleaned all this up with a wire brush and went out today for a drive and I had no issues. It runs like it did. But I don't understand what happened here. I will check it every 200 miles or so and maybe it never comes back but this explains the misfire and also answers why it was intermittent. I plan to reach out to Holley and I think I would like to find a performance shop and have them go over the engine.

Any insight on this would be appreciated.

[Rdone585]

Make sure you have a good engine ground, one near the distributor will help the corrosion from building up. At least that's what my engine builder told me. I was experiencing occasional misfire and looked at the rotor and distributor. Ran a new ground wire straight from the battery to the block. Since then no issues.

[Papa]

Looks like oxidation/corrosion on the rotor contact. Perhaps a very light coat of dielectric grease would prevent it from coming back. My guess is it's likely moisture at the root cause.

[Nigel Allen]

It's a little bit out of my wheelhouse as I haven't played with distributors for many years, but it does look like the firing of the ignition pulse is either too early or too late (depending on direction of rotation). In another words the rotor isn't in position with the contact tip and the spark is having to jump excessive distance from the rotor edge to the distributor cap. That would explain why the edge of the rotor is burnt up.

In other words, the rotor has not quite reached the contact on the distributor cap or has already swept past when the ignition is fired.

Not sure if there is rotational adjustment of the firing trigger, or if the cap can be slightly rotated (doubtful) to better align the spark with the mid position of the rotor contact.

If you have a digital controlled ignition then it is perhaps adjustable in the controller. (I definitely can't be sure on this one because I have no experience with performance ignitions whatsoever)

I think it is definitely worth doing some research on the net and talking to the supplier of the distributor / ignition system.

Cheers,

Nigel

[bobl]

That looks like the rotor phasing may be incorrect. The buildup is on the very trailing edge of the rotor tip, suggesting the rotor was well past the post on the cap. This would result in a longer arc which could be part of the problem. Ideally you want the rotor to line up with the cap around 30 degrees advance. Might be worth going back through the ignition set up on the Sniper.

Bob

[Blitzboy54]

Thanks Guys. First I checked all my grounds. I have solid continuity from my distributor to ground on multiple points on the frame. I cleaned everything back up and I have also found signs of moisture around the ignition system. I cleaned all of it up.

Nigel and bobl, I agree the build up on the edge is suspect and I think you are both right. The initial setup on the Dual Sync it to put your engine at 50deg before TDC on the compression stroke of cylinder 1. My balancer only goes to 30. The instructions give you some measurements from 0 depending on diameter. For a 6 inch balancer it's 2 5/8 inches. The 302 unit is actually 6.4 so i don't know if that makes a difference. Tomorrow I will measure the distance from 10 to 30 degrees with calipers then move that distance passed the 30 degree mark. Theoretically that should be my 50 degree mark. If that mark is different than my original one (used the Holley instructions) then that may account for it.

I will then recheck the static timing with the light.

Definitely chime in if any of my logic is incorrect.

I appreciate everyone's input.

[Papa]

Thanks Guys. First I checked all my grounds. I have solid continuity from my distributor to ground on multiple points on the frame. I cleaned everything back up and I have also found signs of moisture around the ignition system. I cleaned all of it up.

Nigel and bobl, I agree the build up on the edge is suspect and I think you are both right. The initial setup on the Dual Sync it to put your engine at 50deg before TDC on the compression stroke of cylinder 1. My balancer only goes to 30. The instructions give you some measurements from 0 depending on diameter. For a 6 inch balancer it's 2 5/8 inches. The 302 unit is actually 6.4 so i don't know if that makes a difference. Tomorrow I will measure the distance from 10 to 30 degrees with calipers then move that distance passed the 30 degree mark. Theoretically that should be my 50 degree mark. If that mark is different than my original one (used the Holley instructions) then that may account for it.

I will then recheck the static timing with the light.

Definitely chime in if any of my logic is incorrect.

I appreciate everyone's input.

On the measurements, the 2-5/8" that is in the Holley instructions is the arc length for 50 degrees based on a 3" radius. The actual value is 2.617994", which is very close to 2.625 (2-5/8). For the 6.4" balancer, the actual measurement for 50 degrees is 2.792527". That's a difference of just 0.174533"; not significant enough to sweat it.

If you're curious, the arc length is simply the angle (in radians) x the radius. Fifty degrees is 0.872665 radians.

Trigonometry lesson complete!

Dave

[Blitzboy54]

On the measurements, the 2-5/8" that is in the Holley instructions is the arc length for 50 degrees based on a 3" radius. The actual value is 2.617994", which is very close to 2.625 (2-5/8). For the 6.4" balancer, the actual measurement for 50 degrees is 2.792527". That's a difference of just 0.174533"; not significant enough to sweat it.

If you're curious, the arc length is simply the angle (in radians) x the radius. Fifty degrees is 0.872665 radians.

Trigonometry lesson complete!

Dave


Dave that’s awesome. I’m going to use this as an example the best time my 15 year old complains that she’ll never use math in “real life”.

It was the instructions provided by Holley.

[Railroad]

https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/distributors/distributor_accessories/distributor_caps_and_rotors/parts/8421

[rich grsc]

That looks like the rotor phasing may be incorrect. The buildup is on the very trailing edge of the rotor tip, suggesting the rotor was well past the post on the cap. This would result in a longer arc which could be part of the problem. Ideally you want the rotor to line up with the cap around 30 degrees advance. Might be worth going back through the ignition set up on the Sniper.

Bob
Yep, an adjustable phase rotor cap is needed for most when using the computer to control the timing.
"see above post"

[MB750]

Huh, I learned something today. I never knew rotor phasing was a thing. I always thought you just slap down the rotor and cup and the molding kept things in alignment, and then you just turned the whole ignition to set the timing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWMlNwGW0tM

[Nigel Allen]

X2 on learning something new today. Never new there was such a thing as an adjustable rotor.

Cheers for the education, Railroad, Rich and MB750.

[BornWestUSA]

To be clear, rotor phasing is only needed with computer-controlled timing, or EFI. A carburetor engine with a purely vacuum/mechanical advance distributor moves the rotor with the firing trigger, so it is always in "phase". I will have to dig out the MSD installation instructions to see if it has anything different to say about it. I definitely learned something today!

[Derald Rice]

I had a misfire with one of those caps also....The misfire would be on different plugs, and not consistent..

Check the graphite ball that is the center contact inside the cap.....Mine was cracked and loose in it's carrier.

I took off the coil nipple and found out that it is threaded 10-32 (i think), and then I drove out the carrier and the graphite ball from the cap.

To replace the center contact, a brass hex head 10-32 bolt, with the head polished so that the rotor contact would not be damaged by any sharp edges, was used to replace the original center contact.

The OS diameter of the 10-32 bolt was different than the original, so some K&S brass tubing was used to make some
bushings to center the bolt.

Put the original nipple on the brass bolt, and no more problems.

EDIT; My dist is NOT phased, so those comments are probably more relevant to your problems.

[bobl]

The Holley dual sync distributor does not require an adjustable rotor. Set it up per instructions and it should work.

[Blitzboy54]

Thanks everyone for the input, I have it all sorted out now. I did a little postmortem and I think I know what happened. For sanity sake I rechecked my TDC and my 50 degree mark to make sure they where accurate, they both are.

I did my initial setup on the stand before I installed the engine in the car. It was another month before it was installed and I didn't go back and check the static timing until I had the engine tuned (maybe 600 miles). I honestly forgot. When I finally did it was 5 degrees retarded. Also when I checked the inductive delay it was also 5 degrees retarded at 3500 rpm. So there is a good chance for some time I was as much as 10 degrees off. Since the bur is on the trailing edge I suspect I was arcing back at the previous cylinder. This would send a second spark at the previous cylinder but in the power stroke it wouldn't matter that much. But building up all that material certainly caused problems down the road. Once the arcing started I bet it just kept happening.

I have everything cleaned up. I reset the initial timing and checked the static at 20 degrees. It is very stable. My inductive delay is set to 160 and the static timing stays stable to 4000 RPM. Hopefully this is the end of my engine drama. It was self inflicted wound for sure.

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate the help.

[MB750]

To be clear, rotor phasing is only needed with computer-controlled timing, or EFI. A carburetor engine with a purely vacuum/mechanical advance distributor moves the rotor with the firing trigger, so it is always in "phase". I will have to dig out the MSD installation instructions to see if it has anything different to say about it. I definitely learned something today!

I don't want to kick off a new thread since this is related, but I'd like to ask a fresh question, just to see if I'm understanding this all correctly.

Imagine way back in the day when points opened and a small capacitor (the condenser) discharged a voltage into the primary side of the coil, which made a really large voltage jump across the gap of a spark plug. The cam inside the dizzy made the points open at just the correct time so the rotor was close enough to make the spark jump from the rotor to the terminal in the cap and fire the spark plug. That all makes sense.

This is automatically the same with HEI (or any other type of CDI/electronic ignition), but instead of points you've got a hall effect or magnetic sensor instead of points and a condenser. For example, if your spark is firing 10 degrees advanced at idle (on the crankshaft) and the rotor is dead nuts in line with the spark plug terminal post in the cap, then at full advance (let's say 35 degrees) the metal tip on the rotor is wide enough to still be close enough to the post in the cap for the spark to jump in the distributor and make the spark plug fire. (17.5 degrees, half the crank rotation distance) If it were any further away you could have the issue the OP is having, hence the need for an adjustable rotor (or tweaks in the software).

But with computer controlled ignition, a crank position sensor tells the ECU where all the mechanical stuff is positioned and fires based on the crank position (and assumes the rotor and cap is in the correct location), which is why the spark can fire when the rotor isn't lined up better with the terminals in the cap, which leads to misfires.

Is this accurate?

[Blitzboy54]

Well my problem never really went away. I changed the plugs and happened to have a second set of wires. Re checked my timing and then still I have intermittent drag on the engine. So of course I keep going down the ignition rabbit hole until I finally decide to pull off my air cleaner and have a look.





https://youtu.be/xKu9vvLLMn4



I obviously have a dead, stuck or clogged injector. I only have 1500 miles on it but have owned it for sometime. I called Holley and they said they would take a look and repair it. I pulled it off yesterday and overnighted it to them. He said it takes 3 weeks but I assume some of that estimate is travel time. I'm hoping maybe to get it back next week. I am equal parts bummed and relieved to finally have root cause.

[bobl]

I don't want to kick off a new thread since this is related, but I'd like to ask a fresh question, just to see if I'm understanding this all correctly.

Imagine way back in the day when points opened and a small capacitor (the condenser) discharged a voltage into the primary side of the coil, which made a really large voltage jump across the gap of a spark plug. The cam inside the dizzy made the points open at just the correct time so the rotor was close enough to make the spark jump from the rotor to the terminal in the cap and fire the spark plug. That all makes sense.

This is automatically the same with HEI (or any other type of CDI/electronic ignition), but instead of points you've got a hall effect or magnetic sensor instead of points and a condenser. For example, if your spark is firing 10 degrees advanced at idle (on the crankshaft) and the rotor is dead nuts in line with the spark plug terminal post in the cap, then at full advance (let's say 35 degrees) the metal tip on the rotor is wide enough to still be close enough to the post in the cap for the spark to jump in the distributor and make the spark plug fire. (17.5 degrees, half the crank rotation distance) If it were any further away you could have the issue the OP is having, hence the need for an adjustable rotor (or tweaks in the software).

But with computer controlled ignition, a crank position sensor tells the ECU where all the mechanical stuff is positioned and fires based on the crank position (and assumes the rotor and cap is in the correct location), which is why the spark can fire when the rotor isn't lined up better with the terminals in the cap, which leads to misfires.

Is this accurate?

This is basically correct with a crank trigger. With a traditional distributor the trigger and rotor move as the timing changes so the rotor is always aligned properly with the cap. But with the setup the OP has, the trigger is in the distributor so it cannot be adjusted separately from the rotor, which is why the need for an adjustable rotor or in the case of the Holley dual sync that offset is built into the distributor.

[Nigel Allen]

I don't want to kick off a new thread since this is related, but I'd like to ask a fresh question, just to see if I'm understanding this all correctly.

Imagine way back in the day when points opened and a small capacitor (the condenser) discharged a voltage into the primary side of the coil, which made a really large voltage jump across the gap of a spark plug. The cam inside the dizzy made the points open at just the correct time so the rotor was close enough to make the spark jump from the rotor to the terminal in the cap and fire the spark plug. That all makes sense.

This is automatically the same with HEI (or any other type of CDI/electronic ignition), but instead of points you've got a hall effect or magnetic sensor instead of points and a condenser. For example, if your spark is firing 10 degrees advanced at idle (on the crankshaft) and the rotor is dead nuts in line with the spark plug terminal post in the cap, then at full advance (let's say 35 degrees) the metal tip on the rotor is wide enough to still be close enough to the post in the cap for the spark to jump in the distributor and make the spark plug fire. (17.5 degrees, half the crank rotation distance) If it were any further away you could have the issue the OP is having, hence the need for an adjustable rotor (or tweaks in the software).

But with computer controlled ignition, a crank position sensor tells the ECU where all the mechanical stuff is positioned and fires based on the crank position (and assumes the rotor and cap is in the correct location), which is why the spark can fire when the rotor isn't lined up better with the terminals in the cap, which leads to misfires.

Is this accurate?

G'day MB, this is correct, except the condenser (capacitor) does not provide the energy to create the spark. The condenser is there to prevent arcing of the points contact tips each time they open, arcing would result in premature failure of the points. The high voltage spark is generated by the collapsing magnetic field in the ignition coil as a result of the points opening and thus cutting power to low voltage side of the ignition coil. (Think of an ignition coil as an electromagnet).

I hope I explained it well enough. There is probably some better youtubie type tutorials that might do a better job.

Cheers,

Nigel

[Nigel Allen]

This is basically correct with a crank trigger. With a traditional distributor the trigger and rotor move as the timing changes so the rotor is always aligned properly with the cap. But with the setup the OP has, the trigger is in the distributor so it cannot be adjusted separately from the rotor, which is why the need for an adjustable rotor or in the case of the Holley dual sync that offset is built into the distributor.

G'day Bob,

Hopefully I have understood what you have written. I cant agree with your comment above. The rotor does not move as the timing changes. The rotor is locked to the rotation of the distributor shaft, which rotates at 1/2 the rate of the crankshaft. When fitted with mechanical / vacuum advance the trigger rotates to increase the timing before TDC. Alternatively, the trigger is fixed and the timing is calculated electronically. Either way the rotor position is always in a fixed position, relative to the crank position. the long swept area of the rotor contact allows for variation in firing angle.

I think distributors look cool and are a fascinating bit of technology, but give me coil packs any day :)

Cheers,

Nigel

[bobl]

G'day Bob,

Hopefully I have understood what you have written. I cant agree with your comment above. The rotor does not move as the timing changes. The rotor is locked to the rotation of the distributor shaft, which rotates at 1/2 the rate of the crankshaft. When fitted with mechanical / vacuum advance the trigger rotates to increase the timing before TDC. Alternatively, the trigger is fixed and the timing is calculated electronically. Either way the rotor position is always in a fixed position, relative to the crank position. the long swept area of the rotor contact allows for variation in firing angle.

I think distributors look cool and are a fascinating bit of technology, but give me coil packs any day :)

Cheers,

Nigel

Yeh I didn't explain that very well.

[Blitzboy54]

I am starting to reach of a point of frustration with Holley. I pulled my sniper and overnighted it to them on 9/12. They received it on 9/13. I was told that repairs would take up to 3 weeks. Today I called and they said it has not been looked at yet and they are now telling people 4-6 weeks on repairs. Some of this is simply the Sniper shouldn't fail after 1500 miles and some of it is I am running out of driving season in the NE so I am getting anxious. I am also scheduled to bring it to a car show on 10/15 and need it running by then.

I asked if I could at least be told where I am in the que and they are unfortunately unable to provide that information. Holley usually gets incredible reviews for their customer service but this is an outlier I guess. There is no path for escalation, so I think I'm just stuck.

It certainly hasn't helped that the weather has been fantastic the last few weeks and I cannot take advantage.

[Rsnake]

My Sons sniper failed after 700 miles, no spark. He sent in to Holley with the same response as yours and it's been 8 weeks and hasn't been looked at.
NO eta on a replacement or when they will diagnose. He's not happy and I keep telling him to call Summit since that's where he purchased it and put some pressure on them. He wishes he went
with a carb.

[Chopper]

Summit is standup for sure.

Blitzboy, did you get your engine from Blueprint?

[Blitzboy54]

My Sons sniper failed after 700 miles, no spark. He sent in to Holley with the same response as yours and it's been 8 weeks and hasn't been looked at.
NO eta on a replacement or when they will diagnose. He's not happy and I keep telling him to call Summit since that's where he purchased it and put some pressure on them. He wishes he went
with a carb.

8 WEEKS?!?!?!?!?

This is not good


Summit is standup for sure.

Blitzboy, did you get your engine from Blueprint?

I did not, I purchased a donor drivetrain and rebuilt it. I purchased the Sniper directly from Holley.

[Papa]

My Sons sniper failed after 700 miles, no spark. He sent in to Holley with the same response as yours and it's been 8 weeks and hasn't been looked at.
NO eta on a replacement or when they will diagnose. He's not happy and I keep telling him to call Summit since that's where he purchased it and put some pressure on them. He wishes he went
with a carb.

This thread sort of drifted from an ignition issue to the Sniper. Just to be clear, the Sniper has nothing to do with spark unless you have it controlling the timing with an appropriate ignition setup. Spark is generated in the coil/ignition box and distributed via the distributor.

[Jhinkemeyer]

Had a similar issue with my sniper. Ran great for about 1,000 miles or so. Fired it up one morning, seemed a little rough, odd. Pulled out and immediately the thing was lacking power and was just not right, running very lean. Bad enough it actually stalled trying to get turned around. Posted my problem and someone mentioned sometimes the electrical connector at the injector just comes loose. Checked and, like you, only had 3 of 4 injectors squirting. In the interest of not shipping my sniper into a black hole (had read horror stories of some of the lead times) and missing the driving season I just pulled the side off the sniper, removed and re-seated the connector and put it back together (Holley would probably not sanction that action). Anyway it came back to life and it's been another 1,000 miles or so without issue! The connectors are crap, there is no positive engagement really felt sub-par. I certainly am not super confident it won't happen again, but at least it's an easy (albeit messy) fix.

Bummer yours is stuck in limbo somewhere.....good luck, sure hope you get it back before there's snow on the ground!

[Papa]

Another common Sniper issue is the built-in pressure regulator. If you don't have a fuel pressure gauge on your Sniper, it's worth adding one to the inlet side. In addition to the Sniper's pressure regulator failurs, there is a very small filter that is part of the regulator that can easily get clogged.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7liacPQiNc

[Blitzboy54]

This thread sort of drifted from an ignition issue to the Sniper. Just to be clear, the Sniper has nothing to do with spark unless you have it controlling the timing with an appropriate ignition setup. Spark is generated in the coil/ignition box and distributed via the distributor.

I wouldn't say it drifted so much as I discovered what I thought was an ignition issue turned out to be fuel starvation. I do have a CDI box and distributor. I read somewhere in the forum rules that thread titles shouldn't be changed. I may be mis remembering but I figured I would leave it the way it was.

[Blitzboy54]

Had a similar issue with my sniper. Ran great for about 1,000 miles or so. Fired it up one morning, seemed a little rough, odd. Pulled out and immediately the thing was lacking power and was just not right, running very lean. Bad enough it actually stalled trying to get turned around. Posted my problem and someone mentioned sometimes the electrical connector at the injector just comes loose. Checked and, like you, only had 3 of 4 injectors squirting. In the interest of not shipping my sniper into a black hole (had read horror stories of some of the lead times) and missing the driving season I just pulled the side off the sniper, removed and re-seated the connector and put it back together (Holley would probably not sanction that action). Anyway it came back to life and it's been another 1,000 miles or so without issue! The connectors are crap, there is no positive engagement really felt sub-par. I certainly am not super confident it won't happen again, but at least it's an easy (albeit messy) fix.

Bummer yours is stuck in limbo somewhere.....good luck, sure hope you get it back before there's snow on the ground!


This is part of my frustration. The 'up to 3 weeks" made it worth the time to have them fix it. After I sent it off I discovered the bit about the connectors. I almost want them to send it back. I'll fix it. The weather has been unseasonably nice and I have no prospects of getting it back anytime soon.

There philosophy of "we get to it when we get to it" with no other information is ridiculous. The customer service rep knows it's a problem and are as trapped by the system as I am. There is nobody to escalate to so I'm feeling stuck.

[Papa]

I wouldn't say it drifted so much as I discovered what I thought was an ignition issue turned out to be fuel starvation. I do have a CDI box and distributor. I read somewhere in the forum rules that thread titles shouldn't be changed. I may be mis remembering but I figured I would leave it the way it was.

I wasn't picking on anyone for the topic shift, but just wanted to be sure people aren't sending their Snipers back to Holley because of a "no spark" problem.

Dave

[michael everson]

I sent one back about a month ago with the exact same problem. Have not heard anything from them.
Mike.

[BradCraig]

Most of the injector issues have been crappy design of the electrical connectors. Did you pull the cover to check if the connector needed reseating? You can also swap plugs\injectors to narrow down to an ECU\Injector issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQPqXnxCCDo

[Blitzboy54]

When I sent my Sniper in for repair I was told it would be “up to” 3 weeks. That was 6 weeks ago. After calling every week with no resolution I escalated the issue. I received a call yesterday from Holley and they were very apologetic and admitted some of their repair line went down and they had fallen behind. As a peace offering they offered to warranty swap out my unit with a new one. I of course agreed to this. They overnighted me a new Sniper. I installed it after work and uploaded my last configuration. After adjusting the idle she is back and good as, well, new.

I guess the nice part for me is now I have an extra O2 sensor and a spare hand held.

At the end of the day Holley is very customer conscious and I’m very pleased they ultimately did the right thing.

[BRRT]

Glad to hear they made it right.

----------------------------------------

Jeff