Question for the Coyote builders

[MB750]

I'm about 80% done with my baby Windsor 306 build so I'm not going to change course at this point, but I've got a question for the folks who have built their Roadster around the Coyote.

I've seen the engine sell for around $10K. Does that come with all the stuff to get it running, like the ECM, wiring, throttle, injectors, intake, etc...?

Also, I've got a Coyote in my 2020 F150 and while I love it, the one thing that really irks me is that damn drive mode feature. I absolutely hate it! When I push down on the throttle I want the butterfly to open as proportional to how hard (and fast) I hit the gas, not some muted version of what I did because of the TBW being designed from some helicopter engineer back at Ford thinking safety trumps boiling the tires. I've hit the drive mode button enough to wear the paint off it. Now I've installed this little module that automatically presses the button 5x to go to Sport mode automatically.

Digression aside, does the aftermarket coyote come with that BS drive mode feature and an attenuated throttle plate?

[edwardb]

For the Gen 3 Coyote crate motor, the street price is in the 10K range. The control pack (PCM, harness, power distribution box, DBW, etc.) is another 2K or so. There there are other parts to add, e.g. low profile oil pan, oil pickup, alternator, starter, flywheel, clutch, etc. Most of those common to any engine. All in not cheap. But I've done the math and a nearly 500 HP fuel injected custom engine approaches or usually exceeds the price. And may not have a similar warranty. I know they're not for everyone. But I love the two I've done. I assume you know the Coyote in your truck while similar has some differences from the Mustang GT version that's sold as a crate motor.

For your second question, the sensitivity of the accelerator (drive by wire, or DBW) link to the throttle body is fully adjustable in the tune. For a Coyote in one of our builds, where both the intake and exhaust are non-stock, the calibration on the PCM needs to be adjusted via a custom tune. Ford Performance seems to have them overly rich out of the box as well. During the process, the accelerator sensitivity can be adjusted. I've had Lund do my tunes. And in both cases, had them tweak the response to my liking. Pretty straightforward I guess for those who know what they're doing.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Don't know what the cost now but my Coyote was sold by Summit Racing as a turnkey engine for the Cobra with the ECU, belts, starter, alternator pullies, Moroso oil pan, shorty headers (replaced by FFR units) flywheel and clutch. Was at the time about $8500. Spent another $2500 for the TKO-600. Whole package was around $11,000.

The crate ECU is stripped to engine management & does not have any of the car logic. Pedal was linear out of the box but you can tune it with a handheld. I like a slightly softer initial travel as its easier to control the engine output. These cars are very light. Any Coyote you use with hard launch from very low RPM's can break 315 size road course tires with 100 treadware rating loose.

Words traction limited have real meaning with these cars.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=170312&d=1659231942

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=170310&d=1659231585

Some of the engine builders who sponsor here should be looked at as they will provide in most cases more prep work than my deal. I had done enough engine/transmission work of this type the I was OK doing it myself.

[Alan_C]

As we all know now, the difference between pre and post pandemic pricing is huge. However I saw a Summit Racing ad for a Coyote Crate engine in the lower $7K range just a few weeks back.
The crate engine by itself does not include the accessory drive, alternator, engine covers, and most importantly the Controls Pack. Holley now has a ECU for the Coyote that was not an option in the past, but I have not seen results from someone using it. The retail price for the Holley systems do not appear to be a bargain, maybe why not many are using it.
One can hope that the Fed policy to slow the economy will bring down the prices some?:confused:

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/terminator_x/terminator_x_and_x_max_ford_kits/terminator_x_coyote_kits/

[Al_C]

Can't add anything new, but want to support the Coyote choice. I've had my share of challenges, but they're mostly "operator error". Don't worry about the throttle. It's a non issue on the crate motor. So as long as the cost fits into your budget, I'd recommend this engine choice!

[GTBradley]

$12,500 for everything I needed with a gen 2 in early 2019. I did also buy the install kit from FFR. Thanks to Mike Forte for his help and expertise, he made the purchase and install easy. I would not hesitate to do another Coyote in a new build because of the tune versatility. I went to a shop that specializes in classics and had the HP tuner and dyno. It was $800 but what I was most impressed with was the range of performance they could give me. They asked if I wanted an aggressive or an efficient tune. I told them I wanted middle of the spectrum. What I got was a very drivable, efficient and powerful engine that put 401 hp to the rear wheels and can deliver 24mpg under ideal conditions.

PS throttle response is instantaneous.

[edwardb]

If you're guying a new crate motor, the Gen 3 is the only one available. The others have been out of production for some time now. You may find a new Gen 1 or Gen 2 crate laying around somewhere in a warehouse or someone bought and never used. Hear about that every once in a while. But sure wouldn't expect it or count on it. When the Gen 3 came out, the price was higher than previous versions. The control pack was about the same price when they first came out. But market conditions (think semiconductors) have driven up the price some. What I posted in #2 is the current situation. Others are interesting but not what you're going to pay if starting today.

Of course there are other options, e.g. salvage for either the Mustang GT version (same as the crate) or the F150 version. They're widely available. Often at good prices. But typically some work to do, hit or miss on quality and warranty, and not everyone's choice. But many have been done successfully.

Sort of off topic, but not really. Will be interesting to see more details about the new design 2024 Mustang that Ford is going to unveil next month (Sept 14). Rumor is the V-8 version is around 500 HP. Not known yet (at least publicly that I know of) whether that's the current Coyote with some kind of power adder or maybe a new generation Coyote. Gen 4? Or maybe they stuffed a 7.3L Godzilla in there. (kidding, I think). The Gen 3 Coyote has been around since 2018. So based on previous life cycles, about time for a new version. Then it can get complicated again! :rolleyes:

[Alan_C]

I believe the Mach 1 tuned 3rd Gen Coyote is rated at 480, so getting another 20 ponies out of the 3rd gen might not be difficult. There were lots of changes made in the Gen 2 version many adopted from the Boss 302 engines. Personally, even if I found a new Gen 1 engine and could get a controls pack for it, I would pass. The 3rd Gen took the mods further adding direct injection and other small changes.
I was lucky and bought a 2017 GT donor with 2300 miles on it at auction in late 2017. Deals like that do not come up often, but they occur.
I wish Ford would install a production version of the 5.2L, that would push them way past the 500 HP mark and likely, sell a lot more cars. IMO, the 5.2L should have been put in the new Mach 1 to differentiate it from the GT rather than what appears to be mostly an appearance package.

[MB750]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. It would be nice if I could give my F150's Coyote its balls back. Maybe there's an ECU option to bypass that TBW attenuation nonsense so I can have full berserk whenever I want it.

Regarding my Roaster build, I'm locked into the pushrod 306 but any future builds will seriously consider the Coyote, just as long as it's comparable to a pushrod engine. For instance, a 427 Windsor can push out 500hp all day, which to me is the benchmark when comparing engines (horsepower). I know the Coyote and all its accouterments have similar numbers, but if there's a very dissimilar price-point I'll go pushrod all day long.

And honestly, I think the pushrod sounds better... :eek:

[JohnK]

You may or may not have already seen this, but there's a plug-and-play module called the Pedal Commander that lets you tune the DBW throttle response.

https://pedalcommander.com

[racingandfishing]

I have a Coupe on order and have been steadfast about getting a push rod motor, but the prices are almost the same or more than a Gen3 Coyote even with the electronics and other parts. Even if you buy a push rod short block and build it up yourself, still big bucks these days if you want north of 400 HP.

I had the Gen2 Coyote in my 2015 Mustang and added the Ford performance pack which made it seem like a totally different motor. Upped the HP, torque and the redline to 7500 RPMs - it could haul the mail! Can't imagine it in a car that weighs 800-1000lbs less. I really was sticking to old school push rod, but dollar for dollar the Coyote is a lot of HP for the buck and it is very durable and reliable. If it weren't for the lack of lopedy lopedy and the looks which leave a lot to be desired, it would be a no brainer.

Either way, it has me reconsidering. I might start looking for a Gen2 Coyote which is a much better looking motor and you can still add the Ford performance pack and get equal power and torque to the Gen3.

[Alan_C]

The characteristics of a modern Coyote, or LS for that matter, and a carbureted engine is a completely different experience on many fronts. A large displacement piston engine will have far more torque and produce it at a lower RPM, grunt so to speak. To get that grunt, you pay in weight, smoothness, and unfortunately at the pump as you will get about 1/2 the MPG of a Coyote. Whereas the Coyote will have less low end torque but higher RPM fun. Many folks with the Coyote report mid-20 range for MPG on the highway. This may be said to be unimportant but with today's gas prices, more important than many will admit. The Coyote is light, improving the handling of the car. The Coyote is also better suited to the light weight of the MK4, sacrificing a bit of low end torque for high end HP. The Coyote provides the closest thing to modern daily driver reliability, something you likely won't get going more old school. As with all things, there are pluses and minuses to both. I am putting a Coyote into a 70 Mustang at the moment, a very expensive choice. I am just hoping all the work and cost will be worth it when done. I had the 4.6L DOHC predecessor to the Coyote in my MK4, great engine just down about 100 HP to the Coyotes. The 4.6L DOHC moved the car around quite nicely with a 0-60 of just over 4 seconds. A Coyote could easily get one of these cars into the mid-3 second range.
Fun no matter how you approach the power source.

[MB750]

You may or may not have already seen this, but there's a plug-and-play module called the Pedal Commander that lets you tune the DBW throttle response.

https://pedalcommander.com

Yup, I have seen those, just haven't pull the trigger (yet). I started accepting Sport mode as a modest solution, and found a small $50 device that automatically pushes the Mode button 5 times about 10 seconds after each start so now I have Sport mode "automatically" because every restart goes back to Normal. It's got some decent pull, and less throttle lag. I also like how Sport mode does some changes to the transmission as well. Now it upshifts in perfect sequence, whereas in Normal mode it'll skip every other gear on the way up. It also downshifts more firmly for better snap when needed. Normal mode might as well take lunch before downshifting.

[Hacksaw84]

Either way, it has me reconsidering. I might start looking for a Gen2 Coyote which is a much better looking motor and you can still add the Ford performance pack and get equal power and torque to the Gen3.

If looks are the issue, just put a boss or even better a cobra jet intake manifold on the gen3. Then you get looks and performance. :)

[racingandfishing]

Good point! Then maybe make some custom covers for the heads.

Though from what I recall, the 2018 Gen 3 stock manifold performs extremely well and is actually better than the Boss on a Gen 3 motor. I think the Cobra Jet only improves on it at top rpm with some loss of torque down low. Choices, choices, choices...!

[Hacksaw84]

Good point! Then maybe make some custom covers for the heads.

Though from what I recall, the 2018 Gen 3 stock manifold performs extremely well and is actually better than the Boss on a Gen 3 motor. I think the Cobra Jet only improves on it at top rpm with some loss of torque down low. Choices, choices, choices...!

Yeah the Gen3 manifold flows very well. The Boss isn't much of an improvement, it just looks better than the stock one. The CJ looks the best to me but it is expensive. Ford was out of production but is supposed to be in stock again soon. Performance wise you are correct but that top end is pretty nice, I rev out to 8k. Its REALLY nice if you add cams (which is what I did). There are some cool valve covers out there too but again not cheap or you could swap the coil overs to give it a little something without too much expense.

170598 170599

[racingandfishing]

Yeah the Gen3 manifold flows very well. The Boss isn't much of an improvement, it just looks better than the stock one. The CJ looks the best to me but it is expensive. Ford was out of production but is supposed to be in stock again soon. Performance wise you are correct but that top end is pretty nice, I rev out to 8k. Its REALLY nice if you add cams (which is what I did). There are some cool valve covers out there too but again not cheap or you could swap the coil overs to give it a little something without too much expense.

170598 170599

Wow that looks great! Though it looks like you have a Gen 2 Coyote like I had in my 2015 Mustang. I had some really nice Ford Racing aluminum valve covers - like you said, not cheap at like $225 for a pair, but they looked great. The Gen 3 Coyote just doesn't have that option with the coil overs on top.

[edwardb]

The cosmetic issue with the Gen 3 Coyote, which prevents coil covers like the previous gens, starts with the direct injection pump and lines on the RH side. Which caused one of the plug coils to be non-standard. Plus all of the plug coils on both sides are reoriented compared to the previous versions. Previous style coil covers (I had the fancy chrome ones on my Gen 2 powered Roadster) aren't even close. I took a cue from some other builds I saw (FF and others) and cut down the stock cover and flew some panels partly over the top of the heads. Painted and trimmed doesn't look too bad. If you have $1,200 burning a hole in your pocked, these are the first real covers I've seen for the Gen 3. https://www.modularmotorsportsracing.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1414.

The 2018 manifold is excellent and gives the best overall performance bottom to top. And especially at the bottom where most of our street driving occurs. The non-stock version take a little away at the bottom and does add some at the top. But I must be doing something wrong with my street driving. If I'm at 7000 - 8000 RPM's in any gear but first, I'm illegal in all 50 states. So that gain doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

As far as value, I challenge anyone to build a nearly 500HP engine with an aluminum block and heads, 4-bolt mains (the Coyote is actually six with the additional bolts through the side), a forged crank, EFI, 100K maintenance cycle other than oil changes, warranty, etc. I did the math a couple years ago, and couldn't come within a couple thousand of the Coyote price. I know they're not for everyone based on classic looks/sound and being more in keeping with the originals. Many can't get past that, which I totally respect. But when compared fairly, they're a good value.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ab234/edwardb123/IMG_1721(1).jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ab234/edwardb123/IMG_1721(1).jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds)

[racingandfishing]

Paul, exactly and all the reasons that I am starting to question my decision to do a push rod engine.

Maybe I could find a 2012-2013 Gen1 boss motor. Still a great motor and they could at least pretend to do the lopedy lope with the track key!

[Hacksaw84]

Wow that looks great! Though it looks like you have a Gen 2 Coyote like I had in my 2015 Mustang. I had some really nice Ford Racing aluminum valve covers - like you said, not cheap at like $225 for a pair, but they looked great. The Gen 3 Coyote just doesn't have that option with the coil overs on top.

Thank you. Its actually a gen1. Yeah your right, they dont have the coil covers but they do make those engine dress up kits (Like i think came on the Billet) Not a huge fan of them though.