Newbie question: how much better are the Wilwoods

[jgray]

I just joined the forum today and have been thinking seriously about building a couple for the last few months. I go back and forth between being onboard with the idea to being a bit overwhelmed. When I start reading the details in the forum there is a ton of information, which is where I start to get overwhelmed. The other consideration is cost - when I select the complete kit, add IRS, AC, wheels/tires, etc and add Wilwood brakes the price is moving up towards $45k. My plan is to build a fairly authentic car that I would track a few times a year. I have only driven on the track a couple of times, the most recent at the Ron Fellow Corvette Owners School near Vegas - it was a blast. You get to drive their C8s with a lot of traction/stability turned off but it is still a modern mid-engined car. I understand the couple is a whole different thing, and my current thinking is to go with a 302 (a friend is giving me one) and not overpower the car. I realize this is a raw car - my aim would be to set it up in a docile way so that I don't get snap oversteer (have read that the rear sway bar will do this) and I don't want to overtire it because I would prefer it to break loose at a lower speed and have to learn to control that. Also, I figure that if I can actually build a car then I am certainly capable of putting a bigger motor in it later. This brings me to my question: are the Wilwoods worth the money, are they necessary?

[racingandfishing]

Newbie here as well and although I have put my deposit down to get in line. Though I am still trying to figure out the details of the configuration.

I believe you will overwhelmingly hear to go with the Wilwoods. However, the one thing that had me not checking the box for the IRS is the rear Wilwood brakes at $3300!

For the front brakes I would say yes. However for the rear, I believe you can use the standard Mustang GT 2015 and up rear brakes that are far less expensive. Also, you can typically buy the whole rear subframe which has the IRS, Knuckles, Hub/Spindle and brakes from low mileage Mustangs which saves some money.

I will let the experts chime in as it is important to me as well.

[Bob Cowan]

Yes they are worth the money, no they are not necessary. For occasional novice use on a road course with a small motor, the stock Mustang power brakes will be pretty good. The Wilwoods will be far superior, though.

You can easily overheat the mustang brakes, and destroy the rotors in hard track use. If you decide on Mustang power brakes, be sure to fab some cooling ducts before hitting the track the first time.

As for tires, put on the biggest, stickiest tires you can get. There's no such thing and being "over-tired". You don't ever want it to break loose. At all. Ever.

[Glen Davis]

On Wilwood's website for Factory Five IRS rear brake kit they show #140-15138-DR at $2330.15. I don't know if they have raised the price and haven't undated their site, but it might be good idea to call and see.
https://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdRear?itemno=140-15138-DR&year=2017&make=Factory+Five+Racing&model=Type+65+Coupe&option=1994-2004+Mustang+Spindle+%2f+IRS+Rear+End

[racingandfishing]

One other thing to add is that I had a 2015 Mustang GT with the Performance Pack. Ford puts Brembo's up front, but the standard GT calipers in the rear. The car stopped on a dime and gave 8 cents in change as they say. The front does 80% or more of the work, so I don't know that the rear upgrades are worth it.

[edwardb]

One other thing to add is that I had a 2015 Mustang GT with the Performance Pack. Ford puts Brembo's up front, but the standard GT calipers in the rear. The car stopped on a dime and gave 8 cents in change as they say. The front does 80% or more of the work, so I don't know that the rear upgrades are worth it.

Not entirely accurate for the Roadster and Coupe. They are much more rear biased than your standard DD, including the Mustang. I don't know the exact ratio, but something like 60/40 or 55/45. But then much lighter than a Mustang, so the larger Mustang brakes do a decent job for mostly street driving. I have Wilwoods all around in my IRS Gen 3 Coupe, and not planning any track driving. Stop great. I agree they are expensive. But then again, not a cheap build no matter how you look at it.

[Gordon Levy]

I have been a Wilwood OEM dealer for well over 25 years. The price you see on Wilwoods website is full retail. We as dealers have minimum pricing but can do better than that. My kit's are a bit more performance and race minded and I have front kits ranging from 11.75" 4 piston to 15" 6 piston and rear kits from 12" 4 piston to 14" big 4 piston. In the grand scheme of your car build the cost is relatively small while the braking performance is exponentially better.

[jgray]

I have been a Wilwood OEM dealer for well over 25 years. The price you see on Wilwoods website is full retail. We as dealers have minimum pricing but can do better than that. My kit's are a bit more performance and race minded and I have front kits ranging from 11.75" 4 piston to 15" 6 piston and rear kits from 12" 4 piston to 14" big 4 piston. In the grand scheme of your car build the cost is relatively small while the braking performance is exponentially better.

Ok. Thanks everyone. Very helpful. The 55/45 balance makes sense - My C8 has bigger brakes on the back than the front. So Wilwoods all rounds. I guess the only thing I question from the above sage advice is never wanting to break free because if you don’t how do you know where the limit is and if you are not at the limit you could be going faster - I’m not trying to be a smart a$$, just learn more.

[Gordon Levy]

Just to be clear. That kits I have and what FFR sells are very different.

[jgray]

Thanks for the clarification. Why are they so different? What do you see as ideal? I expect that may be a “it depends” type of question. But I want brakes that can withstand track driving and let me drive home.

[Gordon Levy]

I pretty much live at the track. I have 1 20 minutes from me a friend owns and I am a founding member and have unlimited access. I tailor brake packages for how you plan on using the car and what wheels you plan on. It makes a big difference. You can follow the links in my signature and see a ton of stuff or you can call me during the day, PST, and we can talk at length about the best package for you.

[jgray]

Thanks. I’ll give you a call.

[narly1]

I tailor brake packages for how you plan on using the car and what wheels you plan on. It makes a big difference.

Apologies in advance for hijacking this thread.

What has been your experience as far as the 33HR goes? Worthwhile upgrade (and reasons why) or just "bling"?

Earl

[Gordon Levy]

They are worthwhile for the same reason as the Roadster or the coupe. Having the confidence that if you need them the brakes really stop the car quickly just adds to an enjoyable driving experience.

[narly1]

They are worthwhile for the same reason as the Roadster or the coupe. Having the confidence that if you need them the brakes really stop the car quickly just adds to an enjoyable driving experience.

Thanks Gordon,

I'm building with safety and reliability in mind so that I can enjoy this car well into my sunset years so Wilwood brakes it is.

[jgray]

Not entirely accurate for the Roadster and Coupe. They are much more rear biased than your standard DD, including the Mustang. I don't know the exact ratio, but something like 60/40 or 55/45. But then much lighter than a Mustang, so the larger Mustang brakes do a decent job for mostly street driving. I have Wilwoods all around in my IRS Gen 3 Coupe, and not planning any track driving. Stop great. I agree they are expensive. But then again, not a cheap build no matter how you look at it.

Is the rear bias that you describe due to the engine and transmission being far back in the chassis or is there more to it than this?

[Gordon Levy]

Yes.

[edwardb]

Is the rear bias that you describe due to the engine and transmission being far back in the chassis or is there more to it than this?

X2 on Gordon's response. Yes. On typical DD's with front engine and rear drive the engine straddles the front axle. On the Roadster and the Coupe, the engine sits completely behind the front axle. With obvious effect to the front/rear distribution. One of the less appreciated aspects of the original Cobra. Interestingly, not all replicas have the same layout. I've seen some where the engine is much further forward. I understand from a design standpoint provides more space for the footboxes and passengers. But compromises the weight distribution and overall setup/handling.

Related to this (since I'm on the topic) if you've seen under the hood of the F9 prototype, the engine is way back. To the point that some of it is under the rear windshield/hood surround. Partly related to the low angle/swept forward windshield design. But again to provide nearly balanced distribution without going rear engine as is now usually the case for super cars.

[David Williamson]

I have not corner weighted my coupe but on my Mkll it is 46/54 % front to back. This is with a 93 Mustang Gt engine with aluminum heads and a full tank of gas. I expect the coupe is about the same, slightly more weight in engine but it sits further back in the longer frame.
I have Gordon's Wilwood brakes on my Coupe and they do work well
David W