Flat Tappet Lifter Failure NOW WHAT

[Norm B]

Looking for advice from all the engine experts.

Background. I have a 331 with an Edelbrock RPM performer flat tappet cam. My wife and I drove 6 hours to visit my mother. Tappet noise increased during the drive there. Reset the lash while home and it seemed better. On the way back the noise got worse again.
We are moving next year to a province that requires CATS and has pretty restrictive noise regulations so I had planned to upgrade to a roller cam before the move. Decided to do that now, ordered a roller cam and all the required parts from Summit, and pulled the old cam.

This is what I found. The piece missing from the lifter was stuck to the magnetic oil plug along with a bunch of fine metal particles. Ran a magnet through the oil and it collected more fine particles.

The question is NOW WHAT?

I think I know the answer. "Pull the engine, disassemble, expect all the bearings and journals, hot tank the block, replace any damaged parts and reassemble.

Just checking with the experts before I fly at it.

Norm

PS Yes I was running high zinc oil and all other lifters are undamaged and show normal patterns.

[egchewy79]

Sounds like a rebuild to me. Or buy a crate engine and carry on

[Norm B]

Crate engine is NOT going to happen!
Have tested all the oil I can find downstream of the filter. No metal detected. Cam bearings look good. Will pull the pan and inspect con rod bearings. Mains are girdled so I can’t inspect them one at a time. Will let you guys know what I find.

Norm

[Jeff Kleiner]

I’d tear it down but allow me to say this in my best Clint Eastwood voice; “Do ya’ feel lucky?”

Jeff

[Norm B]

Jeff you forgot "Punk"

My plan right now is to split the bell housing from the engine to get the oil pan off. My block off plate and main girdle won't let the pan down without doing that. I'll pull a couple of con rod caps and inspect closely for damage. Any sign of damage and she comes apart.
At the very least I have to clean the pan, spray out the block bottom end and replace the oil pump.
I might get lucky! Things that should show wear that I have seen so far have nothing. The distributor gear looks brand new.
I used my micrometer to compare the cam lobes of the same function. No difference was apparent. The damaged lifter was on the intake lifter of #5 cylinder. There appears to be a casting void that has appeared on the edge of the cam lobe for that lifter. Maybe that was enough to compromise the case hardening on the lifter.

Wish Me Luck

Norm

[bobl]

All that metal went somewhere. You'll probably find most of it in the pan. But as the lifter wore that metallic oil would have dropped down on the spinning crankshaft and been slung up on the cylinder walls. It might have some significant wear or scoring. A lot would have also accumulated in the lifter galleys, then it could mess up the new lifters. The internal valving is very tight tolerance and doesn't like debris. The bearings very well could be fine since they are fed by filtered oil. A leak down test may help you figure out if the ring seal was damaged and inspect the cylinders from the bottom the best you can. Also there is a good chance that metal got pumped up through the pushrods onto the rockers and the valves and guides could be damaged. The bottom line is there is a very good chance you will have a much shorter engine life if you don't go thru it and get it properly cleaned. You've already got it half way apart. You should be changing valve springs so the heads can be inspected then. Good luck!

Bob

[Norm B]

Thanks Bob. I had decided tonight to take it out and completely disassemble it for inspection. My grade 8 shop teacher used to say "why is there never time to do something right the first time but, always time to do it twice".

Norm

[GoDadGo]

Thanks Bob. I had decided tonight to take it out and completely disassemble it for inspection. My grade 8 shop teacher used to say "why is there never time to do something right the first time but, always time to do it twice".

Norm

Amen Norm, Amen; For Your Shop Teacher Was A Wise Man!

Here are two motivational videos to help you realize that you are not alone:

Removal Mid-Build:
https://youtu.be/Vhbftk4AP4k

Replacement Mid-Build:
https://youtu.be/-nVDzIjSjh8

You've Got This Dear Brother From The Frozen Land From Above!

[Norm B]

Update. As planned, took the engine out and completely disassembled it. Wix filters work really well. No bearing damage at all. No metal found in the heads. One long and three short shiny lines up the number 5 cylinder. No scoring. Couldn't catch my finger nail in any of the lines. Honed all the cylinders as I had ordered a complete set of rings. Cleaned the block and reinstalled the crank. The pictures are of number 5 cylinder.
Now on to cleaning the pistons and the heads and end gapping my new rings.

Norm

[drewr]

Now you know. At least you can sleep well knowing you looked at everything, and that it is not damaged and clean. You can't control a lifter failing, but you can control how you put it back together. Hopefully, it was kind of fun to rebuild! Hope all goes well with the roller cam!

[GoDadGo]

What are you going with for your new camshaft?
Off the shelf roller bump stick or a custom grind?

[bobl]

Update. As planned, took the engine out and completely disassembled it. Wix filters work really well. No bearing damage at all. No metal found in the heads. One long and three short shiny lines up the number 5 cylinder. No scoring. Couldn't catch my finger nail in any of the lines. Honed all the cylinders as I had ordered a complete set of rings. Cleaned the block and reinstalled the crank. The pictures are of number 5 cylinder.
Now on to cleaning the pistons and the heads and end gapping my new rings.

Norm

Those scuff marks are from the fine metal from the lifter. Make sure the piston skirts are cleaned good. That metal will have embedded into the aluminum. Now you won't have to be wondering if it's going to blow up or not.

[Norm B]

Camshaft is an E303 from Ford Performance. Mild performance street/strip grind. Looking for good drivability, not all out performance. Same basic numbers duration and lobe separation as my former flat tappet with less lift. The operating range is also lower. 1500 to 5500 for the new cam vice 1500 to 6500 for the old one. Found it kind of strange but the valve spring requirements for close and open pressure are actually the same. Confirmed this through Summit Racing. Must be the combination of lower lift and rpm. Should be good for my intended usage. Will report back after driving it for awhile. I can get in enough trouble with a 331 in this car. Don't need more power.

Bob, I have cleaned and checked the pistons carefully. Even though there was no sign of metal after the filter, all the oil galleries in the block and crank were cleaned very thoroughly. Oil pump was damaged but still spun freely. Cam gear showed no sign of wear but had to be replaced for the roller cam anyway.

All things considered, I got off very lucky.

Norm

[GoDadGo]

Norm,

I think you will be very happy with the new set up and I'm 100% sure drivability will be greatly improved...The engine will be much more rev-happy.

When I changed my block I ditched the Flat Tappet cam and went to a Hydraulic Roller that had a slightly lower operating range too; however, the durations at .050" were very similar...My first big takeaway is how much better the car ran with that roller bump stick since the engine didn't have to work as hard to turn it...My second big takeaway was lower oil temperatures at cruising speeds...The oil temperature seemed to drop by about 10-12 degrees because of the reduced friction...My final takeaway was being able to get the car in 6th gear at only 70 MPH (1,700 RPM) which really helps get us home with minimal noise, minimal fuel use and no tickets when we are cruising down the Interstate.

Sorry you are having to deal with this, but the path you are taking to solve the issue at hand is the best one.

Good Luck,

Steve

[Otee453]

Camshaft is an E303 from Ford Performance. Mild performance street/strip grind. Looking for good drivability, not all out performance. Same basic numbers duration and lobe separation as my former flat tappet with less lift. The operating range is also lower. 1500 to 5500 for the new cam vice 1500 to 6500 for the old one. Found it kind of strange but the valve spring requirements for close and open pressure are actually the same. Confirmed this through Summit Racing. Must be the combination of lower lift and rpm. Should be good for my intended usage. Will report back after driving it for awhile. I can get in enough trouble with a 331 in this car. Don't need more power.



I put the 'E' cam in my Windsor. I like the alphabet cams. I think they get too much underserved hate. Not to mention, the alphabet cams I've seen over the years have always been made quality... unlike some of this crap out there today (Comp Cams maybe??? haha I tease Comp, but geez, there are sure a bunch of failures out there with their cams)

The E cam is quite drivable, sounds good & has decent low-end torque. I really feel it around 3000 rpm. It'll be interesting how it feels once I get a final tune on my Sniper system.

[Norm B]

Up and running. One little coolant leak on the third "first start" for this car. Helps if you tighten the clamp on the heater hose. Otherwise all is well. Did the cam break-in recommended then my wife and I went for a drive. Set the rings as per my normal procedure then went for 1 1/2 drive. First impressions are very good. Engine has much less valve train noise and the exhaust is a little quieter. Engine spins up really easily.
Didn't push it hard so, no idea about power change.
Need to download the appropriate timing curve for this cam for the Sniper and finish the break-in.

Norm

[Norm B]

Final update on this. SHOULD HAVE GONE WITH A ROLLER CAM TO START WITH!
Engine runs great. Spins up really easy. Have to be more careful leaving a stop light. To quote my wife “something smells like burning rubber”
My response was “that would be the tires, dear”

Norm

[GoDadGo]

To quote my wife “something smells like burning rubber.”
My response was “that would be the tires, dear.”

I Love The Smell Of Tires Burning In The Morning!

...................It Smells Like Victory!