WOW! Blueprint vs. Forte

[TommyK215]

please disregard this. I'm trying to delete the post. Was a frustrated rant. Mike Forte is awesome. I will leave it at that

TK

[Jeff Kleiner]

It’s always enjoyable to talk with Mike…almost worth calling to order something you don’t need just so you can have a conversation with him :)

Jeff

[TommyK215]

Hi Jeff! you clearly read the original. just frustrated with Blueprint. Should. have thought a third time before posting. hope all is well with you and yours!

TK

[CaptB]

I cancelled my order with Blueprint, not that I didn't like them but as with others they have major block sourcing issues. Went with Mike Forte and he's had trouble to but I think there's a light at the end of that tunnel.

I thought it was chicken **** that BP charged me a fee on an engine I returned to upgrade to a bigger motor (which I cancelled), especially since they probably re-boxed it and sent it out the next day, but that's business.

[TommyK215]

since I'm new to the forum, I don't want to be "going off the deep end". But, I am not pleased with the lack of customer service by Blueprint.

[BluePrintEngines]

Hello Tommy,

I apologize you are correct BluePrint Engines should have done a better job communicating your order status to you. It is an area we have identified and doing are best to improve in. We are truly sorry you did not receive the customer service you deserve. We have designed our own Block and hope to have it into production soon so we can remedy this supply chain issue. You can contact me direct at 308.237.1017 and I will be happy to assist anyway I can.

Thank you,
Jose

[Dave Tabor]

Hello Tommy,

We have designed our own Block and hope to have it into production soon so we can remedy this supply chain issue.

Thank you,
Jose

Jose- you need any beta testers/early adopters for your new block?

Dave
Gen III Coupe #17
FRPP x302
13,000+ miles

[BluePrintEngines]

Dave,

Thanks for the interest, our block has been designed in house, and will be used to assemble our complete engine packages. It'll be fully QC'd here, before being released to the public. We have access to FFR chassis via our partnership with FFR. And will fully verify mounts and fitments, as we have on all of our packages, so just like every BluePrint Factory Five package, we know it will fit! Appreciate you reaching out through.

Thank You,
Jose

[zee]

Dave,

Thanks for the interest, our block has been designed in house, and will be used to assemble our complete engine packages. It'll be fully QC'd here, before being released to the public. We have access to FFR chassis via our partnership with FFR. And will fully verify mounts and fitments, as we have on all of our packages, so just like every BluePrint Factory Five package, we know it will fit! Appreciate you reaching out through.

Thank You,
Jose

Hey, I have a 347 on order. Does it mean that mine will have the new block? I don't care either way, just curious :-).

[BluePrintEngines]

Zee,

We currently are building our SBF with a season block. We are working on our blocks, but do not have a release date as of now.

Thank You,
Jose

[TommyK215]

FYI: I just got off the phone with Jose at Blueprint. Heck of a nice guy. I apologize for airing my dirty laundry whilst in the middle of my engine "crisis". Sounds like Blueprint is really struggling with their suppliers like the whole country. I am heartened by the conversation with Jose. I will be thinking on this for the next 24...

[BluePrintEngines]

Tom,

It was my pleasure to assist you. Thank you for great call.

Thank You,
Jose

[J R Jones]

Having done product developmet as a career I am surprised at the stated schedule. OEMs can not risk releasing new products without durability validation. In my experience that meant 100s of hours of WOT dyno and road test. That was to a service-life based target or test to failure.
In Dave's case, he is not fast enough or wealthy enough to test twentyfour-seven with data collection.
jim

[JohnK]

For those that are interested and have not seen it, Yama-Bro (Frank) is one of the guys at BPE designing the new block. He did a fascinating write-up of the process here (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?25743-Yama-Bro-s-MK4-Build-Thread-9158-(Index-in-Post-1)&p=489739&viewfull=1#post489739).

[J R Jones]

For those that are interested and have not seen it, Yama-Bro (Frank) is one of the guys at BPE designing the new block. He did a fascinating write-up of the process here (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?25743-Yama-Bro-s-MK4-Build-Thread-9158-(Index-in-Post-1)&p=489739&viewfull=1#post489739).

John,
Well there you go, end of the year, with testing until then. I don't know about BPE but we used "accelerated durability" to find faults in less time. That meant testing with extreem power levels at extreem RPM. Obviously Frank's engine is not that. Like Covid, making predictions is fraught with risk. Stuff happens when you push the envelope.
jim

[JohnK]

Jim - agreed. However, there are many factors to consider. In this case, it's basically a modified copy of a highly proven design, so the reliability risks are only the modifications that BPE has made to the block, and any manufacturing risks from the vendor they choose to produce the blocks. If they go with an OEM casting supplier as Frank indicates, that should be a pretty low risk. I can't speak to the mods to the block, and what appropriate testing of those would look like, but in any case the inherent reliability of what BPE is undertaking here is far greater than if they were designing a new engine from scratch.

[Jeff Kleiner]

John,
We there you go, end of the year, with testing until then. I don't know about BPE but we used "accelerated durability" to find faults in less time. That meant testing with extreem power levels at extreem RPM. Obviously Frank's engine is not that. Like Covid, making predictions is fraught with risk. Stuff happens when you push the envelope.
jim

Or…it could be like when I worked for General Motors in their engineering test labs during the 1980s and 1990s. Engineering wanted to do further testing but the bean counters said “Ship it. Let the consumer identify the problem areas.” GM sales, warranty costs and profitability during that time frame shows how well that worked out ;)

Jeff

[TommyK215]

This forum never ceases to amaze and impress me. Thank you all

tom

[TommyK215]

And that's for the small block development, not the 427 block, correct?

[JohnK]

From what I could tell from Frank's post, yes that's the short-deck Windsor block.

I'm still holding out hope that we'll see that plastic 3D-printed block on the dyno one day. ;) It'll be like a bull-riding contest - we'll have to take bets on how many seconds it lasts at WOT.

[zee]

Zee,

We currently are building our SBF with a season block. We are working on our blocks, but do not have a release date as of now.

Thank You,
Jose

Gotcha - thank you. I think I can afford to wait for the new block :-D.

[J R Jones]

John, I have lived through this type of project and in the words of Donald Rumsfeld:
"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know."

As a start, pouring molten iron into sand to create a block has a multitude of variables that have to be perfect.
I have had mature products built on the line for years and the purchasing department would substitute a part supplier to meet their agenda and subsequent failure would stop production.
This engine is not simple and launching it is a formidable task.

Have you heard of the flat head Ford engine failure of the 40s or 50s? After 20K(?) miles the engine would overheat. Ultimately it turned out that casting sand in the water jackets came loose over time and clogged the system.
jim

[JohnK]

Jim, I worked in Operations for a semiconductor capital equipment manufacturer for 25 years. When our customers (the world's largest semiconductor chip makers) would build a new fab it would cost billions of dollars and take 2-3 years to get it up and running. Once they made their initial purchase of equipment, every single new piece of equipment and every spare part had to be sourced from the same vendor, using the same rev of the same design... down to every single consumable item and OEM subcomponent. They knew from first-hand experience that what seemed like a simple rev change or vendor change or surface finish change etc. could result in a system down. When a wafer foundry production line goes down, the cost is measured in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour. You do not want to ever be the reason why a foundry line went down.

[first time builder]

I like the term "seasoned" vs "used" . When production tolerances were not as good as the last 15 Yrs. a good used block that was overbored, corrected what was called "core shift"

[J R Jones]

Jim, I worked in Operations for a semiconductor capital equipment manufacturer for 25 years. When our customers (the world's largest semiconductor chip makers) would build a new fab it would cost billions of dollars and take 2-3 years to get it up and running. Once they made their initial purchase of equipment, every single new piece of equipment and every spare part had to be sourced from the same vendor, using the same rev of the same design... down to every single consumable item and OEM subcomponent. They knew from first-hand experience that what seemed like a simple rev change or vendor change or surface finish change etc. could result in a system down. When a wafer foundry production line goes down, the cost is measured in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour. You do not want to ever be the reason why a foundry line went down.

John,
In the recreational industries (maybe automotive), it ain't like that. The Purchasing Department had their own agenda. After working years developing with suppliers I would specify them on the product documents. End in mind: loyalty and quality assurance. The purchasing department objected and would not sign off the BOM unless I added "or equivilent" to the specifications. Potential problem? Heck yes not to mention the nurtured relationship, tooling and development cost.
Off shore suppliers makes those purchasing problems worse.
Try another participation request with my supplier of choice? Pound sand could be the responce.
jim

[CABulldog]

I have a 347 on order from Blueprint, when will we know when the switch to new blocks will happen, IIRC when I ordered the back log was 6 plus months so I was expecting in July or August. How do we best check the current ETA of the engine shipping?

[BluePrintEngines]

I have a 347 on order from Blueprint, when will we know when the switch to new blocks will happen, IIRC when I ordered the back log was 6 plus months so I was expecting in July or August. How do we best check the current ETA of the engine shipping?

We currently do not have an ETA on when our blocks will be released. You can contact me directly at 308.236.1017 to check the ETA on your order.

Thank You,
Jose

[CaptB]

When will the new 351 (427) block be ready?

[rthomas98]

John,
Well there you go, end of the year, with testing until then. I don't know about BPE but we used "accelerated durability" to find faults in less time. That meant testing with extreem power levels at extreem RPM. Obviously Frank's engine is not that. Like Covid, making predictions is fraught with risk. Stuff happens when you push the envelope.
jim

My guess is BPE is having to engage with Foundries that making engine blocks are not their core competency. This is mainly due to the volume. Many of the big players Nemak, Tupy and PGI won't touch it. This is on top of them beginning to diversify with the oncoming EVs. It is hard to get investors to invest in old technology with limited growth. So as these get closed for the new stuff that forces the OEMs overseas for legacy products. This is something that has been happening even before covid. Unfortunately covid only made it worse.

But given this limitation that BPE has to work in doing accelerated testing would not yield the proper learning experience for the supplier to ensure a consistent quality on the product. A slow, steady and metered approach is the best way to go. I worked at AM General when they bought the engine line from GM. They went through this very thing when the tooling started to age. It was a long painful process with a new foundry as the current at the time refused to produce the blocks anymore after the take over. I fully expect BPE to be going through a bit of bumpy road.

[Anonymoose]

It’s always enjoyable to talk with Mike…almost worth calling to order something you don’t need just so you can have a conversation with him :)

Jeff

I relate to this so much. Mike is great, he’ll talk to you like you’ve been best friends all your life. I’ve told several people some of his stories. I just finished my order with him and highly recommend.

[mmklaxer]

I relate to this so much. Mike is great, he’ll talk to you like you’ve been best friends all your life. I’ve told several people some of his stories. I just finished my order with him and highly recommend.

what did you order from Mike, and what's the current lead time?

[CaptB]

I see my question didn't get answered, well...in a way it did. Why I went to Forte for my motor.......

[BluePrintEngines]

When will the new 351 (427) block be ready?

We currently do not have any ETA on the 351 Winsor base block.

[CaptB]

We currently do not have any ETA on the 351 Winsor base block.

Thank you sir.

[Theshandman]

I ordered a BPE 347 FI somewhere around Sep '21. I had a number of very nice conversations with Stephanie, a Cust Serve contact. She was great to work with. I actually asked BPE to delay shipping by a month as I was out of town during the time they expected to ship. Picked it up at FedEx Chattanooga late January this year. I should be stabbing that motor in a week or so.
Art

[Anonymoose]

what did you order from Mike, and what's the current lead time?

I ordered a turn key a52xs with a tremec TKX. He didn’t give any lead times because he said the ship dates from Ford have been way off. He said he has everything needed including control packs so we’ll see if it actually ships late may like Ford said. I’m half way hoping it takes some time, I ordered early anticipating a wait so if it shows up in a couple month it’ll just be taking up space. If it does show up quick I won’t complain though :D