DoI need the Catalytic converters? Emissions?

[ozguy]

So I'm going to place my order next week, and a few things have me stymied:


Do I need a catalytic converters for emissions in Illinois (and later Australia)? Is it state by state? Do they reduce the exhaust noise?
Are the standard disk brakes fine for road driving, with a bit of track play? Or do I need the pricy but sexy upgrades?
Is the IRS that good an upgrade? (once again this is a street car). I've seen refurbs for $1,000, including brakes.Why is the FF IRS $2,800? What am I missing here?


Thanks in advance for your advice gurus.

PS Are there many Australians in this forum? At the end of the day I may build it right hand drive (there is an option for RHD), and ship it over there.....

[nuhale]

Here in Illinois you can get a 1965 designation when you title it which will not require passing an exhaust test. Mine is titled as a 1965 “factory five cobra”. Make sure you submit as 1965 when you file.

[GTBradley]

My take on it is, they can’t hurt. There is no HP loss with high flow cats and they may actually reduce sound somewhat, but not much from what I've read. It is state by state and county by county, but if you have them it won’t matter where you move or who you might sell it to, you’ll be set. Factory five has a nice set of stainless, long tube headers with cats and O2 port.

I will put my 2 cents in for the IRS, I like the ride on the street and it performs equally well on the track. Basically, it rides better than I expected for a 90” wheelbase car, so I think it’s totally worth it.

[Fman]

So I'm going to place my order next week, and a few things have me stymied:


Do I need a catalytic converters for emissions in Illinois (and later Australia)? Is it state by state? Do they reduce the exhaust noise?
Are the standard disk brakes fine for road driving, with a bit of track play? Or do I need the pricy but sexy upgrades?
Is the IRS that good an upgrade? (once again this is a street car). I've seen refurbs for $1,000, including brakes.Why is the FF IRS $2,800? What am I missing here?


Thanks in advance for your advice gurus.

PS Are there many Australians in this forum? At the end of the day I may build it right hand drive (there is an option for RHD), and ship it over there.....

I am running the Mustang GT brakes w/Powerstop drilled/slotted rotor kit on f&r ($350 kit), they stop the car with no issues....quickly. I have one mild track day in 98 degree weather and it had zero brake fade. The car only weighs in at 2400 lbs on a heavy day BUT if you want even more over the top stopping then Wilwood would definitely be an upgrade and they do have the cool factor in the wheel. You could also add Wilwoods down the road if you ever wanted after the car was built.

I also have IRS and think it is worth the cost, the car rides nice and also performs well with it. You might even get a little better resale with IRS if you ever sold the car.

FWIW In CA you only need a PCV valve/enclosed breather system, no cats. We probably have the toughest "emission" requirements in the country. I would doubt if Illinois had more stringent emission requirements than CA.

[phileas_fogg]

Before you start ordering, I highly recommend you contact Nigel Allen on the www.ffcars.com forum. He's in Southern Australia (his description) & can tell you all about the challenges of getting a AUS-road-worthy car built. There are other AUS and NZ (Hotyacht) builders on this forum, but southern hemisphere participation has tapered off by my feeble recollection.


John

[Nigel Allen]

G'day John,

thanks for the recommendation. I pretty much sit on this forum these days. I hadn't replied yet as I am on holidays this week and find lengthy replies on my phone difficult with my sausage fingers. Will give a detailed list of requirements on my return.

Until then, I will say that the Australian design rules (ADR)s are extensive, but workable.
Cats are compulsory, so is EFI. Aftermarket or modified EFI will require full testing $$$. Willwoods will possibly be an issue as all components are supposed to be ADR approved.


Cheers,

Nigel

[Chief Blue Meanie]

Nearly twenty years ago I helped a friend build his Mk3, and he put cats & side exhaust on his car. The cats do reduce the volume and take the crackle out of the sound. Seeing as that pipe will be in your left ear anytime you're driving I'd def recommend going with the cats if you do a side exhaust. I'd do a full exhaust myself, only because I don't want the drone in my left ear.

[Nigel Allen]

Hey Ozguy,

Here is what I needed to do to get my Mk4 over the line in South Australia:

There is quite a bit that is different from the US cars and that is mostly driven by our reasonably stringent Australian Design Rules (ADR’s).

These type of cars are treated as an ICV (Individually Constructed Vehicle) in Australia. The vehicle will be expected to meet standards for the year of when the VIN is supplied. Therefore this rules out carburettors.

Pretty much everything is required to be approved. This means components must be sourced from an ADR approved vehicle or be independently engineered and tested to those standards. Straight away this meant throwing the seats, harnesses, door latches, and brake lines over the shoulder. It has also required hiring an engineer (approved by our Department of Motor Vehicles) to monitor the build and assess along the way. As with many things these days, the engineer is largely held responsible by our government for the safety and compliance of the vehicle. A comprehensive report is written and submitted to the DMV along with photographs. Once the vehicle passes all requirements, a copy of this report must be carried in the vehicle at all times. Just so the law enforcers are informed of what they are looking at and have some pictures to ensure no mods have been made since inspection!

Before I even ordered the kit, I had to sit down with my engineer and run through the project. It felt a lot like a job interview, as he was testing my ability to satisfactorily build a motor car. I must say the whole process has been without any major issue so far, but really adds to the cost and stress of the build.

Below is a list of most of the mods I have made to ensure compliance:
(I am sure there are probably others I have forgotten)

- Torsional beam testing of the chassis and suspension components.
- Side indicators.
- High-back seats and compliant headrests.
- Seats to have twin locking sliders.
- Seats to have been crashed tested. A guy over here makes seats that look like the originals, but have a higher back and an adjustable headrest, they are awesome.
- Retractable seatbelts. (Can leave harnesses in, but aren’t to be used as primary restraint).
- Padded dash cowl.
- Seat belt warning light.
- Handbrake warning light.
- Reversing light.
- White parking lamps ( I integrated these into the headlamps)
- Center brake light.
- Reflectors on rear of car.
- Locking steering wheel.
- Ignition immobiliser.
- No toggle switches allowed on dash.
- Full emissions testing.
- Handling and braking tests. (Carried out on a runway at a local airstrip) Fun!
- Only allow EFI motors, hence the Coyote.
- Cat converters. I fitted these between the headers and side pipes. Was not difficult, but took some time to do.
- Charcoal canister and working purge system.
- 90DbA at 3300RPM.
- Heater/ demister.
- Wipers and washer.
- Full collapsible steering. (this has been a pain)
- Side intrusion bars.
- Door latches off of a production vehicle that has been crash tested. (This has meant cutting the inner skin and building in the mechanism) Upside is the doors close gently and beautifully just like a modern car, plus are ‘burst proof’ in an accident.
- Individual brake reservoirs.
- Brake reservoir fluid level switches.
- Small plaque affixed to dash to alert driver and passenger to the fact that the car has crash test, air bag, ABS exemption etc and does not meet current standards.


As I said, not impossible, but the mods add a lot of work, especially if you try to keep with the 1965 aesthetic (not sure if that is the right word) of the car. It probably added 2 years in my case. It gives you an appreciation of how much goes into building a car when you start fabricating pieces. In summary, most of the mods add safety to the car, which I fully support.

As for the cat converters, mine were high flow. I dont think they quietened the exhaust note at all. I did mange to get the noise down to 90dBA @3000 RPM, that is a story for another day. Like others, my side pipes are getting noisier as the miles increase.

I don’t think there are too many RHD FFRs around, possibly less than 30? in Australia. Hopefully a few more builders might say G’day.

165917

165918

165919

Hope this helps with your decision making. What state were you intending to ship the car to in Australia?

Cheers,

Nigel.

[darrenm]

Hi Nigel I have a 33 ffr with full rego I built it in Victoria and now it’s up here in QLD good luck with yours

[ggunter]

Wow I had no idea Australia was that strict on kit cars. It makes what the guys in California have to do look like a walk in the park, and I think what they have to do is horrendous. You really have to want that car to go through all that. By the way Nigel your car looks great.

[Al_C]

I wonder what would happen if you built a car here in the USA, according to the specific state you live in, and then imported the car to Australia when you relocated? Could you import the vehicle as is, or would you have to re-build to Australian specs?

Ozguy, would love to hear how your thought process went and what you decided.

[Nigel Allen]

Hi Al C,

The requirements vary from state to state in Australia, however each state will treat it as an ICV, individually constructed vehicle. This means that the vehicle needs to be built to the current ICV standard when it is imported. It will need at least all of the modifications that I listed in an earlier post. It will also need to be right hand drive. We don't even get any exemptions when we move vehicles from state to state. I.e. a Cobra replica moved from Queensland to South Australia will need full engineering approval from scratch. As discussed earlier this means hiring in an approved engineer by the DMV to carry out a full inspection and test of the vehicle to make sure that it complies with current ICV standards. This adds several thousand dollars to the purchase price of any vehicle purchased out of state.

I certainly don't have a problem with the rules as it generally makes them a much safer car, however they are extremely strict. My car could not even be submitted for approval for registration unless it was 100% completed. This means that the car must be painted and carpets fitted. So no driving around in gelcoat phase for a while, it just won't fly over here.


Cheers,

Nigel

[ozguy]

Hey Ozguy,

Here is what I needed to do to get my Mk4 over the line in South Australia:

There is quite a bit that is different from the US cars and that is mostly driven by our reasonably stringent Australian Design Rules (ADR’s).

These type of cars are treated as an ICV (Individually Constructed Vehicle) in Australia. The vehicle will be expected to meet standards for the year of when the VIN is supplied. Therefore this rules out carburettors.

Pretty much everything is required to be approved. This means components must be sourced from an ADR approved vehicle or be independently engineered and tested to those standards. Straight away this meant throwing the seats, harnesses, door latches, and brake lines over the shoulder. It has also required hiring an engineer (approved by our Department of Motor Vehicles) to monitor the build and assess along the way. As with many things these days, the engineer is largely held responsible by our government for the safety and compliance of the vehicle. A comprehensive report is written and submitted to the DMV along with photographs. Once the vehicle passes all requirements, a copy of this report must be carried in the vehicle at all times. Just so the law enforcers are informed of what they are looking at and have some pictures to ensure no mods have been made since inspection!

Before I even ordered the kit, I had to sit down with my engineer and run through the project. It felt a lot like a job interview, as he was testing my ability to satisfactorily build a motor car. I must say the whole process has been without any major issue so far, but really adds to the cost and stress of the build.

Nigel.

Pleased to meet you Nigel,

First thing, That's quite a daunting list of requirements. I knew it would be tough, but not down to those minute details.

I'm in Illinois, USA, and intend to build it here, and want to ship it to Oz, and register it in Melbourne (I know, Victoria is one the hardest states to get it registered). Assuming building it here will be cheaper, due to bringing in the car mostly duty free, where as if I brought in all the parts and kit the duty and tax would be much higher (is that a correct assessment?).

I was prepared for details like the RHD kit, Coyote engine with catalytic converters, wipers, stalk indicators, top and side visors/wind guards, Front and rear bumpers, All mustang disk brakes, Aussie seats, Heater/demister.

But those other details (side indicators, seatbelt, adjustable steering wheel, etc) area bit cray cray.

With that in mind, a few questions:

Are the aussie style brake and turn signals included in the kit?
Can I use the US wipers?,or do I need an aussie kit?
How much were those aussie seats? Would US seats work from a regular production car?
When you say individual brake reservoirs, what does that mean?
How do you do the adjustable steering?
Does the engineer look at the factory welds, etc, on the chassis? Could be an issue if I build it here.
Is the engineer pricy?


I've a mate in the Victoria Cobra club, and he recommended Andrew Baldacchino as a good engineer.

I've heard there is a car club registration, that's not so demanding requirement wise. Can I drive with that tillI get it fully compliant for reg?

Sorry for all the questions, but there's so much to think about and consider.

[Nigel Allen]

G'day Ozguy,

Few questions there, so I'll answer what I can by tacking my answers onto the end of your questions:

I'm in Illinois, USA, and intend to build it here, and want to ship it to Oz, and register it in Melbourne (I know, Victoria is one the hardest states to get it registered). Assuming building it here will be cheaper, due to bringing in the car mostly duty free, where as if I brought in all the parts and kit the duty and tax would be much higher (is that a correct assessment?). - There will be import taxes to pay. More importantly I am unsure if you can bring a complete car in to the country and still have design exemptions. Pretty sure if you did import a completed kit, it would get classed as a complete car for the year it was built. This means it would need to meet all of the new vehicle requirements in Oz, such as ABS, airbags etc.

I was prepared for details like the RHD kit, Coyote engine with catalytic converters, wipers, stalk indicators, top and side visors/wind guards, Front and rear bumpers, All mustang disk brakes, Aussie seats, Heater/demister.

But those other details (side indicators, seatbelt, adjustable steering wheel, etc) area bit cray cray. - Retractable seat belts and side indicators are required and are not at all hard to do. I used period correct european side indicators (Lamborghini) and they don't look out of place. Steering wheel does not need to be adjustable, it needs to be collapsible, both from a frontal collision and if the driver impacts it. That was a way tricky job.

With that in mind, a few questions:

Are the aussie style brake and turn signals included in the kit? - Yes, but you will need to change headlights to RHD (they then dip to the left)
Can I use the US wipers?,or do I need an aussie kit? - No. You will need wipers that swing to the right. Castlemaine Auto Electrics have a great kit.
How much were those aussie seats? Would US seats work from a regular production car? - https://www.classicandsportseltham.com.au/pages/services-we-offer - according to the website $2,500 per pair. They are excellent.
When you say individual brake reservoirs, what does that mean? - One for front braking circuit, one for rear. Both also require low fluid level switches. Low fluid level indicator lamp to go on dash. Easiest way is to get a dual split reservoir from a daily driver
How do you do the adjustable steering? - I don't. See earlier note.
Does the engineer look at the factory welds, etc, on the chassis? Could be an issue if I build it here. - They will inspect what they can. My engineer was very impressed with the chassis fab quality.
Is the engineer pricy? - $5-7K possibly more.



I've a mate in the Victoria Cobra club, and he recommended Andrew Baldacchino as a good engineer.

I've heard there is a car club registration, that's not so demanding requirement wise. Can I drive with that tillI get it fully compliant for reg? - Dont have that as an option in South Australia, so can't answer.

Sorry for all the questions, but there's so much to think about and consider.

- Totally understand and happy to help. I think it is worthwhile investigating. Have you placed an order yet?

Cheers,

Nigel