First ride - alignment

[Alex_V]

Finally got to gocart the car for the first time. Never thought that day would come. As expected, alignment felt way way off. You can actually see all wheels pointing in different directions and at all the wrong angles.

Question is, would it be easier to do an alignment early, so I can start testing small things in the neighborhood streets. Or is it best to complete the body, add all the doors, hood, trunk, all the other stuff. Then, set the ride height using pre-load on springs. And only then take it to an alignment shop.

Any alignment places near Atlanta that know what they will be looking at?

[JohnK]

I did an initial crude alignment myself after setting ride height without the body on, just to have it in the ballpark for go karting. In theory, if ride height stays constant alignment shouldn't change, so you could set ride height now and have it aligned, and when you put the body on just reset ride height back to where it previously was and your alignment should still be OK. That said, things will settle, so if it were me I'd probably have it re-aligned when the car is completed just for peace of mind.

[ggunter]

I had mine aligned in go kart stage. It was easier for the alignment guy and the body really doesn't make any difference weight wise to change and settings. They can put sandbags in the seat for your weight. Then you can go kart to your content. I think I put about 50 miles on mine go karting around the neighborhood.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Set ride height and align it. Build the rest of the car and adjust back to the same ride height and your alignment will be the same as it was.

Jeff

[Fman]

You can use a string alignment and get it close enough to go kart. Your not on the freeway or high speeds in Go-kart. If you have it aligned professionally in Go-kart chances are you will be heading back again after all your ride height is decided. I changed my ride height a few times after everything settled.

This seemed to work out good for me. It was not cheap for alignment on IRS car, once was enough.

[Avalanche325]

My thoughts are..... I built a car, I can do my own alignment. Get a Fastrax or equivalent and some toe plates and you are good. The toe plates are optional. I also do my DD myself.

I agree that ride height and string the toe and that is good enough for a go-karting.

[Alex_V]

Thanks for the ideas.

I am all for doing a crude alignment myself, with strings or whatever. Any good write ups, or videos available? I know there are specs in the manual, but unsure how to actually apply those numbers.

[NAZ]

Set ride height and align it. Build the rest of the car and adjust back to the same ride height and your alignment will be the same as it was.

Jeff

This is the best advice you've gotten so far.

[steno]

Set ride height and align it. Build the rest of the car and adjust back to the same ride height and your alignment will be the same as it was.

Jeff
What he said!!

[CraigS]

As mentioned aligning w/o the body is so, so much easier. Once the body is on, you can barely get to the toe adjustments w/ the car on a couple of 2x10s. All other adjustments you need to jack up the car, guess how much to twist an adjustment, drop it down and roll/bounce it to settle the suspension, and check your results. At the front here is a quick and dirty process. Adjust the rear uca sleeves as short as they will go. Adjust the front uca sleeves to make the tire vertical compared to the floor. Use a carpenter's square or even a cardboard box for reference to vertical. Adjust the tierods to roughly the same length side to side and to make the wheels parallel to the center of the car when looked at from above. BTW, put car details in your signature line. Click on 'Settings' at the top right. On the left under 'My Settings' click 'Edit Signature' and ad car details there.

[Derald Rice]

Thanks for the ideas.

I am all for doing a crude alignment myself, with strings or whatever. Any good write ups, or videos available? I know there are specs in the manual, but unsure how to actually apply those numbers.

Just did this last week after having all 4 corners of the suspension off of the car for heim joint upgrade.

Used a piece of electrical conduit to measure the outside rear tire width

Cut a notch at each end of the conduit, matching the outside rear tire width, for the string to align into

Used my trash tote as a holder for the conduit

Set the string at wheel centers, from one of the rear lug nuts , around the backside of the rear tire, and forward to the conduit......Water bottles kept the string tight.

Centered the conduit spreader bar by measuring from a common point of each front wheel to the string....... I used the center of the spinner adapter.

That basically built a square box around the car. Then measured from front and back of rim to string to determine toe in-out.

Camber was measured with a digital level from top of tire to bottom of tire to get to 0 degrees.

I got it into the ballpark, and It goes onto the alignment rack on the 19th, then I will see how close I was able to get it with the string.

F1 still uses string for their alignments, but I don't trust my string that much.

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EDIT: Keep checking to keep the spreader bar centered, as well as keeping the steering wheel pointed straight..... I bungeed the steering wheel to the crotch strap of my harness.

[NAZ]

If you understand how a suspension works then you know it doesn’t matter if the body is on or off the car when you do the alignment. For those that don’t have the proper tools or knowledge and will be taking your car to a shop for alignment, you don’t necessarily have to wait until the car is finished, licensed, and on the road. It will be easier to adjust without fenders in the way. Easier = less $$ when the shop is charging you by the hour.



If you have the wheels and tires, you’re going to use on the street and have your ride height set; you can have a shop align the car with or without the body on. It won’t change once you add the body as long as the ride height is set to the same height as when it was aligned.



So instead of going through all these motions with Rube Goldberg set-ups to get a “rough alignment” you can perform an alignment “one and done”. I have all the tools to align my cars and adjust bump steer and I usually do this as soon as the chassis is assembled – with or without a body. Sometimes without the engine and trans in the car. Ride height is the key as that’s the datum you always start with before an alignment.

[egchewy79]

I tried the string method, barely skimming them along the rear tires, to help determine my front alignment.
The only issue was that my thrust angle for my solid axle wasn't perfectly perpendicular and by the time I got to the front, the strings were way off.
I made some plywood templates, referenced to the inside of the 4" tube since my brake/fuel lines were run along the outside of the frame.
This helped me use a string to get the front close. I also bought the Tenhulzen 2 wheel alignment tool and did my own alignment.
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[Derald Rice]

[QUOTE=NAZ;48954
So instead of going through all these motions with Rube Goldberg set-ups to get a “rough alignment” you can perform an alignment “one and done”. I have all the tools to align my cars and adjust bump steer and I usually do this as soon as the chassis is assembled – with or without a body. Sometimes without the engine and trans in the car. Ride height is the key as that’s the datum you always start with before an alignment.[/QUOTE]


That's great "IF YOU HAVE ALL THE TOOLS".....

But for most of us, we don't "HAVE ALL THE TOOLS".....

So we try to get it close enough to set the ride height, toe, and camber , and then let the pros to the fine tuning.

For myself, I do not see the value of spending $500 (wag) to get the tools, just to do it once every so many years.

For those who are auto-x fanatic's, or are working in an active shop, or who just want to do for themselves, the justification of the expense is easily made.

My RUBE GOLDBERG setup is not meant to replace a pro's alignment rack, just to get it so that the basics can be set reasonably close for the pro to fine tune it.

And FWIW, my RUBE GOLDBERG setup cost zero dollars, made from what I had available.

[J R Jones]

We did alignment tuning at the track in SCCA Nationals and among other tools we used a commercial string fixture hung on the front and rear of the car. It was indexed to the chassis centerline which took a bit of measuring and marking just after we bought the tool. I have used lasers in place of strings, and still index the set-up.
jim

[CraigS]

I saw someone a few years ago that did the string and conduit thing. He had quick jacks on his car so he bungeed conduit across them. He did some measuring to figure the center of the car, marked it and the conduit. Then he measured X inches from center and cut small notches for his strings to fit into. He made his strings a little longer than the distance between the conduit and put small weights on the ends. Grab a string. drape it over the conduit so it slipped into the notches. This gave him two parallel reference strings that moved w/ the car. Made it a lot easier than strings between something stationary on the floor to run the car up on his jack, make adjustment, drop and settle it, then measure to his strings

[BradCraig]

I had mine aligned at a local shop and they did a piss poor job. I just bought a Longacre Caster\Camber gauge and a set of turn plates. I'd rather spend the $$ and learn to do it myself to make sure its right...plus having learned a new skill. I'll be pulling off the body next week to do it, I'll update how it goes!

[Alex_V]

I had mine aligned at a local shop and they did a piss poor job. I just bought a Longacre Caster\Camber gauge and a set of turn plates. I'd rather spend the $$ and learn to do it myself to make sure its right...plus having learned a new skill. I'll be pulling off the body next week to do it, I'll update how it goes!

Thanks for all the ideas.

I would be curious to hear what the Longacre gauge experience was like.

[NAZ]

Derald, my post was not directed toward you specifically but you’re also missing the point. I see these threads from time to time and can tell that many fret over how to do a rough alignment so they can go cart their partially finished car. My point is the rough alignment can be skipped altogether.


No need to have any special tools or to use home brew methods to set caster & camber. If the car is at the go cart stage your local shop can do an alignment and as long as the chassis is set at ride height, that alignment won’t change once the car is complete and the body attached as long as it’s at the same ride height when completed.


Doing a rough alignment then taking the car to a pro later is just an added step. It won’t hurt but it’s not necessary and I suspect some folks think it is. Doing the final alignment without fenders in the way is easier so I’m suggesting folks consider have the alignment completed as soon as the car is at the go cart stage.

Do what makes sense to you but don’t feel a rough alignment is required.

[JohnK]

Technically speaking, NAZ you are 100% correct. The only reason I've mentioned doing a rough alignment prior to putting the body on is that I don't know what I want my final ride height to be at that point. There's lots of good recommendations, and the suggested starting point of 4" in front and 4.5" in back is a good place to start, but I won't know until I see it with the fenders trimmed and the body in the final position after paint and that may necessitate a ride height adjustment and another alignment at that point.

[NAZ]

Some things to keep in mind when setting ride height.


Ride height is a primary datum we use for suspension set-up. Establishing the proper ride height is a balancing act as it can affect many things; not the least are center of gravity and suspension geometry which in turn, affects weight transfer and handling. On solid axle cars, changing ride height can create an undesirable condition called roll steer. Ride height can affect ground clearance as well and too little or too much can both be detrimental.



There are several ways we can go about establishing ride height. The show car builder will raise or lower a car to achieve that cool stance. The off-roader may jack up their 4x4 to make room for larger tires. The superspeedway racer will lower the ride height in an effort to increase downforce from the aero package. And a road racer will raise or lower ride height to adjust roll center. No matter which way you determine your proper ride height, be cognizant of the fact it affects suspension geometry and that affects handling.


And if you’re raising ride height because your tires are rubbing the fenders, that by itself will not prevent the tires from rubbing the fenders. Raising the bump stop to limit bump travel is what keeps the tires from rubbing the fenders. Which is usually followed by raising ride height in an effort to gain back some of the bump travel lost.

Don't be afraid to experiment, just keep in mind how your adjustments affect other areas.

[CraigS]

I got a pair of turn plates a year ago. They allow easier turning for sure but what I really like is that they slide in and out. So, when I drop the car off the jack, they really help w/ suspensipon settling. I bounce the car up and down and also slide it back and forth sideways. No need to roll it so the process is now just a bit simpler and quicker.

[Alex_V]

So, I went ahead and setup my ride height on all four corners to just under 4". Before I know my Harbor Freight low profile jack (3-1/8 in.) is nearly stuck under the rear of the car. Does that sound normal or did I go too far?

[rich grsc]

So your 3 1/8" jack is almost stuck, guess it's obvious you didn't set you height at or above 4" like everyone recommended?

[Alex_V]

So your 3 1/8" jack is almost stuck, guess it's obvious you didn't set you height at or above 4" like everyone recommended?

Ride height is set a hair under 4", which I measured at the round frame tubes. Everything I read suggested at 3 3/4 - 4" ride height. Its the fuel tank that got in a way of the jack. I was using bottom of the rear diff to lift the car. Once lowered I had to really try and find a way to get it out.

[NAZ]

Alex, on really low cars I have the same problem with my floor jacks. I normally set ride height on my four-post lift as it's more level than my shop floor and easier to work on the lift. But at the track, I have a set of four Race Ramps I use with my scales that are 3" in height that I will roll the car on to tweak ride height. You could use 2x12 planks to do the same thing, just make sure they're straight and wide enough to support the entire contact patch of the tire. Just have to subtract the height of the ramp.

[egchewy79]

With my ride height set at 4" in the front and 4.5" in the rear, I cannot get my low profile HB jack under the 4" cross member from the front. I come in from the side, in front of my DS tire, and jack up the DS corner first. I then put a block of wood (four 4x4s bolted together) under the DS frame just behind the tire. Then I'm able to get the jack under the front cross member. In the rear, the jack is barely able to fit under the rear diff, but I also need to come in from the side behind the PS tire to clear the fuel tank.

[R. Button]

I also have used the string system to adjust the toe on my car. Then I came up with a new system - lasers!
I bought 2 level's from harbor freight. They are called 24 In. Digital Laser Level With Angle Finder. They shoot a red laser beam which can be a dot or a line. Then I cut a piece of flat steel. Using short bungee cords attach the laser level's to the rear wheels, level the laser up ( it's has the bubble right there in the level). Then using a 6 inch steel ruler measure the toe by comparing the front vs the rear of the front wheel.

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If I want to adjust camber I use a circular level

165831

I set the caster using the same circular level but use plastic bag (cut in a large round disk) on the floor to allow the wheel to turn easily. I have chalk marks on the floor to set how far to turn the wheel each way.

This get's the car drivable so I can later take it in to a good alinement shop with the specs I want the car's alinement set for.
It's not perfect but it sure makes the car drivable after you have replaced a steering rack!

[CraigS]

I use lasers also. I made this up. There is an exact copy of the scale on the other side also. I slide it under the car, til it up and pull it out until the short piece hits the inside of the 4 inch frame tube.
https://live.staticflickr.com/871/41458729111_5b428592af_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/26ayPLk)[https://live.staticflickr.com/1750/42669853081_ed36d72996_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/281A9J6)IMG_20170419_160647869 (https://flic.kr/p/281A9J6) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickrurl=https://flic.kr/p/26ayPLk]IMG_20170419_160800746[/url] by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
This is how I get the toein the same on both sides. To do the front I just move the scales to the rear and laser to the front. The above pics are kind of old and I had just one laser etc. I have now accumulated two lasers, and two Longacre camber/caster gauges, and two of the scales. So I made up a pair of these to mount them to.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51151112744_d88a86f2f8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kW3PJY)20210501_093241 (https://flic.kr/p/2kW3PJY) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
I welded up a lug nut w/ a bolt on the outer end. I replace one lug nut w/ my stud/nut and the white mount fits over the stud and I hand tighten another lug nut to hold the white mount against the wheel.