The 818 Section and The FFR Community

[Dave Smith]

I am excited about the growth of the new Factory Five Forum since we launched it nine short months ago! I am, however, concerned about the direction of the 818 section and wanted to bring this to ALL of your attention. I've posted this in the 818 forum on purpose because many of you are new to the FFR community, whereas the other sections seem to be visited by vetrans of the FFR wars and they seem to know the way we roll here at FFR.

I am very pleased with the bulk of the discourse on the 818. The conversations have truly helped the design team as the car develops. We (actually I) invited the commentary and overall I am quite happy with the results. Yet these days I have come to see alot of posts with personal attacks (this is contrary to the charter of this forum which is service to the community). I am thinking of making some changes to the 818 section of the forum if it does not change.

The master of this place is COMMUNITY and debate and disagreements are fine, but you will never form fellowship around a core of insults and community rarely gathers around a place that is not fun. Any idea deserves respect and any member of this forum deserves respect.

Respect, Community, Service to others, Humility, Competence, Knowledge, Honesty (with Kindness and Respect as Foundations), Friendliness, Helpfulness, Brotherhood, Fellowship, Stoke, Passion... If one of these elements are not common themes in your threads, you are sadly not welcome here. Factory Five, our employees and Team, our amazing community of customers and suppliers... all of us have built a truly exceptional and unique community over 15 years and that community is not common! Here is a place and a company where the guy who walks in the door is our boss and the person we work for is our friend. This amazing company exists in some measure because of MY personal stewardship and leadership by example... The example of service and gratitude for the job. The stewardship of fostering fellowship within these walls and as our products reach out, to others, in the community in general. While I could NEVER personally take credit for the way in which the FFR community is known for fellowship, I can tell you that some of it is BY DESIGN.

I'm not asking you to drink any Kool-aid or wear a brown shirt, because we here need candor and truthful dialog. Still, the person who always just "says it like it is" without regard to respectful communication is commonly an inconsiderate and intellectually lazy person, perhaps popular on TV or other places where outrageous and rude behaviour is rewarded, but not here and not in this special community of such great people. Part of my job is to make sure that the uncommon path is followed and that while ALL are invited to join us, some, who don't understand our mission, will sadly and with regret be asked to leave. This small forum is a clear mirror of the community at large and I will take personal action to ensure that it remains a place of respect and fun and stoke.

The 818 will be a great car, I have no doubt about that. It will benefit (already has) from the involvment of the community. BUT, if this forum helps make the 818 more profitable at the cost of community.... well, that is a failure. I am lucky that for now, my name is on the door and that means I get to have things my way. Please help me and the guys here design a great car, but please help in a way that builds the community. I won't have it any other way because while the 818 needs the FFR community, the FFR community doesn't need the 818. It's sorta like the youngster at the dinner table. Nobody likes a smart-*** punk kid, but all of us love a polite, respectful and energetic young man who brings the passions of youth to the table.

Let's try and make the 818 community the best and most fun. It has a long way to go to earn it's place among the great FFR cars and community... Please help with this charter.

[skullandbones]

Dave,

I am wondering how you feel about participants in the "818" discussions who are not the drivers of the conversation since the beginning of the discussion. I am building a roadster and looking down the road a ways at a possible Daytonna coupe build in the future. However, when I began checking the 818 threads, they really grabed me. I think I can see myself in one of those little pocket rockets! Here is a possible scenario I have avoided for the "hail and brimestone" reaction I would expect if not entirely ignored. I have thought that an increase in the wheel base lengh would enhance the side view of any of the designs and some of the ergo and other space issues. I was curious to see what sort of discussion this would generate even if it was completely explained away due to "template", marketing, or other explanations. I don't think one should feel this way in a discussion group. I sure don't feel that way in the roadster forum. And I'm not (normally) one to shy away from an agrument or "heated discussion". Just thought that this might relieve some other's apprehension if others feel this way, also. Thanks, WEK.

[thane]

Dave,

I like that you're taking explicit, direct action in service of challenging the participants on this forum to be mindful of the way they say the things that they need to say. In my experience, two factors lead to the diminution of the quality of discourse on a web forum. One factor is that writers and readers are often not sufficiently mindful of a fundamental aspect of human communication. Readers will reliably interpret that which is written in a manner that is more negative than the writer intended. What follows from that factor is that writers need to be conscientious about the structure of their messages to help avoid hurtful misinterpretation. Additionally, readers need to be disposed to give the writer the benefit of the doubt. The other factor that I think leads forums down a bad path is that the relative anonymity of the web invites the sort of "inconsiderate and intellectually lazy" discourse that you referenced.

I used to participate in the WERA roadracing forum a lot, and in my experience, that forum too frequently suffered from the kind of discourse that you're trying to avoid. I can only imagine that your early intervention will go a long way towards preventing unwelcome outcomes. Well, those are my thanks and thoughts.

thane

[Dave Smith]

I guess that I believe strongly in an open format and that the FFR community has NEVER been shy about expressing opinions about what we should or should not do. Frankly, the best advice and council has come from customers building their cars. The integration of ideas into existing products to make them better has been a hallmark of the FFR company AND community. I love that and will never leave that wingman.

With respect to the 818 forum specifically, while the car is not for sale (yet) and there is discussion of the car on every level from small to large, the discussion is pretty cool and helpful to guage what people want as well as how they feel about paths taken or being considered. BUT I've been reading too many nasty and disrepectful posts to sit on my hands. The ruin of a forum comes when good ideas are held back for fear of ridicule or put-downs.

I also find it ironic that it's always the guys who are the most abusive who shout the loudest about censorship and free exchange of ideas, when in truth it is their very aggresive tone that prevents others from contributing. I think a well moderated forum enables constructive communication and keeps the place fun.

These are the early days of our forum and we have time to experiment. Still, my feelings are that the 818 section needs to be a little bit nicer place to hang. We're not talking religion or politics here but rather a fun car that we will all build for fun... the forum should enable that.

[vozproto]

I think that this is a great step to take Dave.

I too have seen a few forums (WERA included) devolve due to a mob rule.
Of course I surely won't be the first to cast a stone as I am likely not without fault in this matter.

But in the realm of product development one of the most fundamental basis of initial conception of a solution (the 818 in this case) is that there are no wrong ideas. And supporting the respect factor within the forum will likely keep a much cleaner and productive process.

I agree that there should be no 'wrong ideas.'
It's just that some stick and some don't.
But there are surely wrong ways to communicate those ideas and -equally so- there are wrong ways to receive them.

[crobin4]

I am excited about the growth of the new Factory Five Forum since we launched it nine short months ago! I am, however, concerned about the direction of the 818 section and wanted to bring this to ALL of your attention. I've posted this in the 818 forum on purpose because many of you are new to the FFR community, whereas the other sections seem to be visited by vetrans of the FFR wars and they seem to know the way we roll here at FFR.

I am very pleased with the bulk of the discourse on the 818. The conversations have truly helped the design team as the car develops. We (actually I) invited the commentary and overall I am quite happy with the results. Yet these days I have come to see alot of posts with personal attacks (this is contrary to the charter of this forum which is service to the community). I am thinking of making some changes to the 818 section of the forum if it does not change.

The master of this place is COMMUNITY and debate and disagreements are fine, but you will never form fellowship around a core of insults and community rarely gathers around a place that is not fun. Any idea deserves respect and any member of this forum deserves respect.

Respect, Community, Service to others, Humility, Competence, Knowledge, Honesty (with Kindness and Respect as Foundations), Friendliness, Helpfulness, Brotherhood, Fellowship, Stoke, Passion... If one of these elements are not common themes in your threads, you are sadly not welcome here. Factory Five, our employees and Team, our amazing community of customers and suppliers... all of us have built a truly exceptional and unique community over 15 years and that community is not common! Here is a place and a company where the guy who walks in the door is our boss and the person we work for is our friend. This amazing company exists in some measure because of MY personal stewardship and leadership by example... The example of service and gratitude for the job. The stewardship of fostering fellowship within these walls and as our products reach out, to others, in the community in general. While I could NEVER personally take credit for the way in which the FFR community is known for fellowship, I can tell you that some of it is BY DESIGN.

I'm not asking you to drink any Kool-aid or wear a brown shirt, because we here need candor and truthful dialog. Still, the person who always just "says it like it is" without regard to respectful communication is commonly an inconsiderate and intellectually lazy person, perhaps popular on TV or other places where outrageous and rude behaviour is rewarded, but not here and not in this special community of such great people. Part of my job is to make sure that the uncommon path is followed and that while ALL are invited to join us, some, who don't understand our mission, will sadly and with regret be asked to leave. This small forum is a clear mirror of the community at large and I will take personal action to ensure that it remains a place of respect and fun and stoke.

The 818 will be a great car, I have no doubt about that. It will benefit (already has) from the involvment of the community. BUT, if this forum helps make the 818 more profitable at the cost of community.... well, that is a failure. I am lucky that for now, my name is on the door and that means I get to have things my way. Please help me and the guys here design a great car, but please help in a way that builds the community. I won't have it any other way because while the 818 needs the FFR community, the FFR community doesn't need the 818. It's sorta like the youngster at the dinner table. Nobody likes a smart-*** punk kid, but all of us love a polite, respectful and energetic young man who brings the passions of youth to the table.

Let's try and make the 818 community the best and most fun. It has a long way to go to earn it's place among the great FFR cars and community... Please help with this charter.

Thanks Dave we needed that.:)
I've often thought the current tone of the forum has dampened my enthusiasm for logging on and participating.
I have always believed FFR is a great community to belong to, this another reason I so stoked about the 818/Subaru. I don't get the same warm fuzzy feeling from say...Saker.
I'll continue to try to behave and try word things so they're not taken wrong. This is a must on any forum.:cool:

[Gary in NJ]

In my opinion, most of the threads go off in wild directions due to speculation run a muck. Until such time that the details of the 818 are fixed, final and released; the open-scope nature of the design process will lead to people aggressively flexing their wants-n-needs muscles. Many of the conversations start constructively, but in due course the threads are side-tracked by conversations that should be in their own thread. If the moderators could guide the threads to remain on topic, and separate the side conversations into new threads, I think it will keep the insults in-check due to a reduction of frustration.

With that said, Dave I applaud your approach to the design and the customer influence on the final 818. I became a believer in FFR after I watched the 818 pre-SEMA web cast. I enjoyed your enthusiasm and belief in the product.

[Flamshackle]

Thanks Dave,

Your words here are something we can all take away and remember.

[NicksPapaw]

Dave,
As I read your post, I was saying to myself, it's about time! While I frequent both forums, both for discussion and true friendships that I've made over the past couple of years, I find it hard to even read the 818 section. I have a true interest in the 818 and have read every post in the section. Boy, it has gotten nasty with a few people. Most have tried to steer the conversations back to center, but a few seem to make it their mission to destroy the inherently good intentions of this site. Hopefully, they will take this message to heart since many of these people have some incredible views and ideas, but just don't seem to understand that they are talking to other real people on these threads. I look in awe at some of the abilities that a lot of these guys have. I hope they don't waste it by trying to bully their way through this forum. We really need their insight and passion. It just needs to be tempered as if they were speaking one on one with an individual. Keep up the great work. You know we are always watching. :)

[AVIONX]

Sorry Dave. Thanks for the rebuke spoken in love. :)
Matt.

[Dave Smith]

That's a good point (about lack of updates leading to off the path conjecture)... I can take some responsibility as well in that updates have not been regular and the direction of the design/(s) have been relatively fluid as we travel from design-board to a fully defined car. This is not a clean or simple process at all, however I have been militant in setting nodes. The project started a year ago and we have made tremendous progress and done what we said we would do.

We have a few months on the body shape (at least the first one) and going forward I want to make sure that we deliver on the projected dates (I'll have those soon) on the prototype build/testing, beta kit builder selections and shipping, and ultimately, the real production dates and final pricing/configurations. It would be a disaster to spend all this time on development only to fail by months or more on the actual car production dates and delivery. The 818 will be the best and most well-considered product launch to date and the feedback on this forum will be central to that effort.

Dave Hodgkins suggested a Blog for updates and I think that's probably a good idea. At least one place where we can keep the conversation in a format that allows the rest of the site to "explore" and diverge freely.

[kach22i]

You currently have a bunch of compulsive designers in the forum, they will eventually wander off and lose interest as the design comes to a conclusion. They will be migrating to more design based forums (Car Design News?). This will leave you with a core of kit builders as found in the other FFR forums - eventually that is. This transition will not be smooth nor orchestrated, it will be random and perhaps messy.

Dave you have been a good host and we have had our share of misunderstandings, I wish you good luck.

[bbatts]

Dave,

Thank you so much for your comments and remarks. Your comments not only set the tone and direction of the posts but it also gives me tremoundous insight to you as a leader and the core foundation of FFR. As a future 818 builder, it makes me feel comfortable that I will become associated with such a fine group of people with ethics, passion and integrity. Having such a solid foundation will continue to enhance the company value and long term viability of the company and customers. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

BB
Nashville, TN

[Dave Smith]

Kach.. I hope that is not the case since the 818 needs three distinct body shapes and there is other design work/projects at FFR that the company benefits from your and others input.

I said this before, but I am fairly convinced that an affordable roadster is the first most logical 818 body shape/path. That being said, we really do have a much more focused product than we did a year ago or even at the outset of the body design competition. Truth is that we can benefit tremendously if we take shape number 2 or 3 and provide a second round competition with much tighter specs, chassis drawings, etc. All things that will make FFR better. Soooo, I hope we don't lose too much feedback, i just wanted that feedback to be in line with the culture and vibe of the FFR community.

The crew here is frantically trying to close out the day and split for the Thanksgiving day weekend. I'm doing the same and wish you all the warmest regards.

[PhyrraM]

On that note.... there are some of us that can't draw worth a crap, but feel that we might be able to contribute on a technical level if given the same opportunity and flow of information as the external design side has.

I know Jim has a very strong handle on this, but I still think the community can help avoid pitfalls or knowledge gaps.

[BipDBo]

...We're not talking religion or politics here but rather a fun car that we will all build for fun... the forum should enable that.

So, guys, please save your arrogance, nasty comments and insults for extended family on Thanksgiving when you talk about reigion and politics.

[Movieman]

So, guys, please save your arrogance, nasty comments and insults for extended family on Thanksgiving when you talk about reigion and politics.
I'll agree with that and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
As to the other all I can say is that I'm constantly impressed with the talents of the people here from the designers( You guys should be designing for the Big 3) to the builders( The Georgia coupe just took my breath away)
So many good people here that deserve a standing O for what they bring to this forum.

[VTX]

Kach.. I hope that is not the case since the 818 needs three distinct body shapes and there is other design work/projects at FFR that the company benefits from your and others input.

I said this before, but I am fairly convinced that an affordable roadster is the first most logical 818 body shape/path. That being said, we really do have a much more focused product than we did a year ago or even at the outset of the body design competition. Truth is that we can benefit tremendously if we take shape number 2 or 3 and provide a second round competition with much tighter specs, chassis drawings, etc. All things that will make FFR better. Soooo, I hope we don't lose too much feedback, i just wanted that feedback to be in line with the culture and vibe of the FFR community.

The crew here is frantically trying to close out the day and split for the Thanksgiving day weekend. I'm doing the same and wish you all the warmest regards.

I think if you did a 2nd round competition with tighter specs/chassis drawing, etc would be really cool. I wanted to submit something myself in the first competition, but my schedule just didn't allow me to get it done. However, I have been slowly working on a design that fits the current template, just for the heck of it, and am currently modeling it in Solidworks. I was planning on posting it when I had it finished and I will regardless of another contest, but that would just sweeten it all the more.

I'm also glad you posted this, because nobody should feel afraid to post something and reminders like this keep people in check. Internet forums seem to be notorious for turning otherwise nice people into jerks, and I know I've even been guilty of that myself. I will definitely do my part to think about my comments before I post.

[Oppenheimer]

Lets all agree that:

1. When reading a post, assume good intent. Give benefit of doubt. Most of us aren't professional writers, so our comments could be misinterpreted.

2. When crafting a post, re-read before you submit, looking for ways your statements could be misinterpreted. This is especially true if you are replying on a potentially controversial subject.

[BipDBo]

Lets all agree that:

1. When reading a post, assume good intent. Give benefit of doubt. Most of us aren't professional writers, so our comments could be misinterpreted.

2. When crafting a post, re-read before you submit, looking for ways your statements could be misinterpreted. This is especially true if you are replying on a potentially controversial subject.

You are probably being too kind in assuming that the "transgressors" are only accidentally insulting. That happens sometimes, but I don't think that it's the cause of the comments that have raised concern. The internet gives a cloak of anonymity that allows a person to act differently than they would otherwise, especially someone who may have repressed Napoleon syndrome issues. I think that the main rule of internet forum posting should be: Only type what you would say to the person face to face.

[skullandbones]

Based on that rule of saying only what you would to someone face to face, I would like to make a suggestion that would help develop that culture.

I think it should be required to put a minimal amount of info about yourself on your profile and "about me" sections of the forum. That way you would be putting yourself out there for people to see. Think of it as developing your face so you could do a "face to face" with other faces on the forum. Sometimes, just knowing what generation a person is helps to better understand "where they may be coming from". I know that is not always reliable but it's better than nothing. I guess what I'm saying is that if you are willing to share your opinion, you should take the responsibility to share who you are.

I remember making a smarta** comment regarding the egos on this forum. One person (at least) took it personally. So I would like to apologize to Kach22i for that transgression. It was not meant as a mean spirited comment but that goes to show you how words hurt sometimes. I will continue to try and keep the misunderstandings to a minimum.

Thanks Dave and happy holidays,

WEK.

[Xusia]

The internet does give a cloak of anonymity, and I agree that's probably a large part of the problem. Politeness and/or the emotional reserve people would normally exhibit in person are often lacking. The solution is self (as in "yourself") regulation as proposed above. It's interesting in that if there is any room for misinterpretation - or a lack of details (from the reader's perspective) - we humans tend to assume the worst (or fill in the mission details with the worst). What's even more interesting is that the exact opposite is usually true (meaning, most people actually do have the best intentions, and/or that the missing details are less dire). That's why "When reading a post, assume good intent" is the best advice in my opinion. It goes miles if truly taken to heart.

skullandbones' idea is an interesting one, but I don't think it will work. Looking at myself as "typical" (funny, I know - hold the jokes!!!) I don't have a lot of time. While I would begrudgingly add details to my profile *if required*, I don't see a way to require someone to read all the profiles. And if there was a way, I'd probably have to quit because the cost of admission would just be too high for me. We all come to "know" people online by how they behave online. It takes more time than in person, but it happens nonetheless.

Oh, and thanks Dave for exerting some leadership force to design and achieve a community worthy of membership.

[RM1SepEx]

In other forums I've also notice a general decline in the social acceptability of postings...

Media such as so called reality shows etc... show and seem to define as "socially acceptable" what has previously been bad behavior

I feel that our society in general has been declining due to the way that kids talk to each other, the shortness of texting, tweeting etc... almost everything is in your face...

I am an old (52) fart with a professional background, BSME and worked nationwide as a consultant... You have to consider what you say when you work with company presidents, business owners etc...

[Etos]

Well sad but true- us subaru guys act like smart ***** on forums. NASIOC is a good example of what to expect. We're not badly natured by most means, just smart *****. Comes with the territory and it's to be expected on some level. We tend to be the more techie generation and alot of us subaru enthusiasts look like we belong at a comic-con lol.

Dave- I think the best solution is to speak with the owner of NASIOC and become a sponsor. Try to get your own section for the 818 in the technical section. This will keep us that may not play perfectly nice over there. NASIOC is the biggest car forum in the world, it would be a mistake not to.

Also little off topic:

Is it 818 or A18? Your interview states it's really A18, if so why keep calling this the 818? Just would like a solid name decision.

[Draco-REX]

Well sad but true- us subaru guys act like smart ***** on forums. NASIOC is a good example of what to expect. We're not badly natured by most means, just smart *****. Comes with the territory and it's to be expected on some level. We tend to be the more techie generation and alot of us subaru enthusiasts look like we belong at a comic-con lol.

I disagree. NASIOC lets that behavior continue which is why it may seem that way. It's also why I almost never visit that forum. IWSTI.com, DirtyImpreza.com, and other Subaru forums I'm on are enjoyable places to visit with knowledgeable and polite people that know how to have fun and disagree without resorting to down-talking and insults. The tolerance that NASIOC's moderators have for bad behavior is what has made it the cesspool of snide comments and newbie bashing that it is today.

So no, that type of behavior is not an integral facet of the Subaru community and it has no place here. Please leave it where it currently resides. I don't think FFR needs to go anywhere near what is often referred to as "Nasty-Sock".

[riptide motorsport]

Wasn't me.... I'm an Angel!!:)

[Tpa65cpe]

Well said Mr.Smith !! We as members need to police ourselves and think "positive" when responding to others. I myself almost fell into that form of unaceptable behaviour!! APOLOGIES to anyone that I may have offended with my comments!! This is a great forum and community and we should not let that sort of behaviour reflect on us, FFR, or this company!! It is so rare that you find somthing like this nowdays that it should be cherished and nurtured so that it can keep growing! Happy Thanksgiving All, TPA65CPE!!!

[Movieman]

Wasn't me.... I'm an Angel!!:)
Made me laugh and I think we all need a good laugh!:D

[Etos]

I disagree. NASIOC lets that behavior continue which is why it may seem that way. It's also why I almost never visit that forum. IWSTI.com, DirtyImpreza.com, and other Subaru forums I'm on are enjoyable places to visit with knowledgeable and polite people that know how to have fun and disagree without resorting to down-talking and insults. The tolerance that NASIOC's moderators have for bad behavior is what has made it the cesspool of snide comments and newbie bashing that it is today.

So no, that type of behavior is not an integral facet of the Subaru community and it has no place here. Please leave it where it currently resides. I don't think FFR needs to go anywhere near what is often referred to as "Nasty-Sock".

And I'm going to have to disagree with you. NASIOC is like an apple tree. There are some rotten apples but you can't let that ruin all the other good, greater majority apples. IWSTI is not a knowledgeable base at all, I actually left IWSTI since I couldn't take people running their mouths on there. If you ever visit the technical or PPB they are mostly very well behaved and a great wealth of knowledge you CAN'T find anywhere else. General forum and off topic is the cesspool you talk of and I'm not saying to be part of that. Technical is a great section full of great people.

[vozproto]

Seriously? If there was ONE thread to not devolve into a bicker-fest.
Mods can we have this thread cleaned up before it goes down the rabbit hole so we can preserve the message intent?

[bromikl]

Is it 818 or A18? Your interview states it's really A18, if so why keep calling this the 818? Just would like a solid name decision.

Etos, I think I know which interview you are referring to. The guy holding the microphone sounds like he said A18. Maybe he did. But it was a mistake. The car has been known as Project 818 since the beginning. It refers to the target weight of 818 Kg; A.K.A. 1800 Lbs.

[Colvindesign]

Dave, well put and well timed. The very fact that you care speaks volumes about you as a person and FFR as a company. It shows me that the FFR team is like a family. While accepting the notion that a lack of updates has put off a lot of people, you also show great character. Personally I would rather you spend time working out the details on the car than spending countless hours answering every little question on the forum. In my opinion, if you wish to have good control over the tone and "feel" of the forums, you need to have someone who's specific responsibility (or their actual job) is to monitor and manage the forums, full time.

I've been on internet forums for over 10 years now, and I've had my share of arguments which were completely unnecessary and an utter waste of time. I've written many things that I shouldn't have and written many more apologies. Chances are if it is not constructive, it is destructive. Tone, meaning, character and sarcasm are all nearly impossible to portray or read in a post, and often people do not know how to accurately say what they mean. We are all very like minded people and have many of the same interests by the very fact that we are all on this forum.

The step you have taken here makes me happy to know there are good people out there in a good position in life and gives me hope that I might be in a better position some day. Too many times you meet people who are in a similar position (owner or president of an awesome company) and they fall short of your image when their character shows through. I would rather be a good person than a horrible one if that's what it would take to be very successful in life.

[JRL]

Dave I stopped commenting or offering opinions months ago - it's not worth the abuse. I started a thread way back in the early stages of the 818 development - http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1949-My-Thoughts-as-we-approach-June hitting the high points of what you originally stated as the direction you intended to take the car. I soon realized trying to discuss technical issues with nontechnical folks was not worth the effort. I was assaulted from many directions because I evidently burst the bubble of some that actually thought they could build a (insert the car of your dreams) for $15,000. As it turns out I was nearly 100% correct in projecting the first addition of the 818.

I understand your hope that this is a friendly community but from my experience it is far from friendly. I have several friends that have built wonderful cars from your kits and they are friendly the mob here is not............................

I will continue to follow the 818 as it develops and may one day build one but I will never identify with about 90% of the mob - you can have them. To the 10% that get it I applaud your intelligence and insight.

[Dave Smith]

Thanks guys! What I have witnessed so many times while driving this bus has been remarkable. I've seen guys come together to finish a friends car who was dying of cancer. I've seen fellowship and selflessness in a racer borrowing a spare part to a competitor, only to get beaten by that same competitor in the next race, and then afterwards they are working on a car together or drinking beer and cooking out in the pits. The FFR community has a thousand stories of this kind of real-world kindness. I think there is something special about a person who decides to build his/her own car. I think that there is indeed something special about this company and communuity that is bigger than any of us individually. My father is a Deacon in the Catholic church and I am always telling him stories about FFR guys and he always reminds me what an obligation I have to ensure that is fostered as it is so rare in today's world.

I don't expect you guys to worry about these things on a daily basis. We are a business that has an obligation to customers. Things don't always go right and when they don't, I cant just run to philosophy and hide behind a "we're good guys" defense. So every day I hammer on this team to do something better and remember that we exist only by the permission and support of guys willing to trust us with their hard earned money. Still, the relationships that we create as we build these cars does define us in the best ways or the worst ways.

Have a great weekend you guys! eight eighteen details to come and to be debated next week!

[Etos]

Etos, I think I know which interview you are referring to. The guy holding the microphone sounds like he said A18. Maybe he did. But it was a mistake. The car has been known as Project 818 since the beginning. It refers to the target weight of 818 Kg; A.K.A. 1800 Lbs.

I went back and you are right. When he said "It's called an eight-one-eight, some people call it an eight-eighteen" I heard the first eight as an A.

[John Dol]

When I was researching what kit to buy I stumbled across the "other site". The tone and camaraderie displayed there gave me the courage to buy and build a Coupe. I'm maybe 1/4 done but everytime I hit a hurdle I don't hesitate to ask any questions.
This because I know I'm not going to get put down, railroaded or made fun off for asking. It gives me the confidence to persue my dream of finishing my car someday in the next 5 years. That and this forum is a reflection of how Dave, through the FFR community, is encouraging people to get involved in this great hobby. I hope the 818 forum is going to evolve in the same direction so it will draw people in rather then offend and push away.

John