Banjo bolt wreckage

[PaulRSchmidt]

So this happened…

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I’m as certain as I could be that my torque wrench set at 29ftlb, but I just twisted the body of the bolt apart. The two fronts went fine, this was the first rear one I was installing. Any thoughts?

I presume it’s a common Mustang part I can replace at my local auto parts store?

[Blitzboy54]

29 ft/lbs seems like a LOT of torque for a banjo bolt. Yes super common part you can get at any auto parts store or order online.

Wilwood recommends between 96-120 inch pounds. Not to exceed 144.

[PaulRSchmidt]

29 ft/lbs seems like a LOT of torque for a banjo bolt. Yes super common part you can get at any auto parts store or order online.

Wilwood recommends between 96-120 inch pounds. Not to exceed 144.

Huh. It’s amazing I didn’t twist off the fronts, as well. I’d better get some replacements for those, too.

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[egchewy79]

This is a commonly reported issue. The build manual has incorrect torque specs I believe. Just get it tight enough with the copper crush washer in place. If it leaks, tighten a bit more

[CraigS]

Get new washers along w/ the bolts. As you see the bolts can't get tightened much which makes it hard to get a seal. Over the years I got to the point where I will not put a banjo bolt in unless it is with new washers. Just too many times I had a slight seep when I re-used washers.

[BradCraig]

Common thing, wrong specs it appears. I just tighten til it doesn't leak.

[PaulRSchmidt]

Get new washers along w/ the bolts.
Definitely planning on that,

[JohnK]

I wonder if anyone has reported this to FFR. Seems like such a silly thing that this error in the manual has been known for years and still has not been corrected. It would take, what.... 10 seconds to update the document?

[Jeff Kleiner]

I wonder if anyone has reported this to FFR. Seems like such a silly thing that this error in the manual has been known for years and still has not been corrected. It would take, what.... 10 seconds to update the document?

Not so fast there guys.

Alldata = 30 ft/lb
Haynes = 29 ft/lb
Ford service manual=20-30 ft/lb

Jeff

[tony]

man, those things always seem to require a lot of torque to seat properly. 29 ft/lb seems about right to me.

[PaulRSchmidt]

The separate FFR install instructions has the torque as 32.

[BradCraig]

Not so fast there guys.

Alldata = 30 ft/lb
Haynes = 29 ft/lb
Ford service manual=20-30 ft/lb

Jeff

Interesting, so maybe bad bolts or a torque wrench that needs to be calibrated?

[PaulRSchmidt]

super common part you can get at any auto parts store or order online.

Walked into two local parts stores, got “what’s a banjo bolt?” :-(

Looking online, I see similar items, but they look longer than mine, which measure about 3/4” from under the head to the end, where their specs say 1”. This is for the FFR 11.65” rear brakes.

[Avalanche325]

Walked into two local parts stores, got “what’s a banjo bolt?” :-(

Did they send you down the street to the music store?

That is absolutely terrifying. You used to be able to go into parts stores (before these national chains) and they could tell you the part# and three brand cross references by memory. Now they want to know which engine your car has before they sell you an air freshener.

[jrcuz]

A couple years ago I was thinking about a part time job and looked at Auto Zone and the manager said I would need to be knowledgeable about vehicles. I believe I am. I decided not to start working again. Early on in my build I needed to get some more brake lines so went to the same AZ the counter person could not locate the line I needed so they let me go look for my self and I found it right away. Good thing it wasn't a banjo bolt.
JR

[rich grsc]

I only speak of my personal experience. The Auto Zones around me, have a store manager to help the employee's find the front door of the store when they come to work. :(

[Mike.Bray]

Walked into two local parts stores, got “what’s a banjo bolt?” :-(

Looking online, I see similar items, but they look longer than mine, which measure about 3/4” from under the head to the end, where their specs say 1”. This is for the FFR 11.65” rear brakes.

I've never had a problem with Earl's components and you can usually get them in a day or two from Summit. It's not an area to take a chance with, buy the good stuff.

https://www.holley.com/brands/earls/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/adapters/brake_system_adapters/banjo_bolts/

[Blitzboy54]

Did they send you down the street to the music store?

That is absolutely terrifying. You used to be able to go into parts stores (before these national chains) and they could tell you the part# and three brand cross references by memory. Now they want to know which engine your car has before they sell you an air freshener.

HA! This is so true. Even worse you can't get an alignment outside of a performance shop. The local chains here need to know what kind of car (year, make and model) and put it in the computer. If you give them specs they don't know what to do with it.

[MB750]

You fellas are assuming the torque spec is to blame here but IMO that's a cheap banjo bolt from mystery metal that came off the slow boat from the far east.

Not baggin' on FFR here, just sayin'...

[PaulRSchmidt]

Could be. As it turns out, FF just notified me they’re sending me two new bolts, so good for them! I’ll back off the torque spec a bit, though, and watch for leaks.

[NAZ]

https://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds573.pdf
https://www.hoseandfittings.com/banjo-torque/

Not all banjo bolts are the same. Different size, different grade, different materials -- it all makes a difference in the proper torque. You'll find a variety of different torque specs out there and using the wrong one may cause damage to the bolt, the caliper, or both. Also, the torque values you find are dry torque unless noted and using lubricant will significantly lower the proper torque value you should be using. A used bolt will also affect the friction required to tighten the bolt. There are so many variables that affect the proper torque that I've changed the way I deal with these fittings.

I'm anal about torquing fasteners in critical applications but when it comes to banjo bolts, I typically apply just enough to maintain a leak free assembly. I avoid using banjo bolts wherever practical as they are not near as robust as inverted flare or AN connections. In some installations they need a rotation stop or safety wire to keep them from coming loose no matter how tight you torque them. They are in wide spread use on motorcycles so I have to deal with them on the bikes I work on. But I really don't like using them if it can be avoided.

As stated above, always use new washers -- they're cheap insurance. Don't use thread sealers on the bolt or washers.

Good luck!

[Avalanche325]

https://www.wilwood.com/PDF/DataSheets/ds573.pdf
https://www.hoseandfittings.com/banjo-torque/

Not all banjo bolts are the same. Different size, different grade, different materials ...



That makes sense. There are four string banjos and five string banjos. They would obviously need different bolts.

[rich grsc]

How about ukulele's? :rolleyes:

[Oldguy33]

Tried torquing the banjo bolts on my 33 hot rod Gen II with stock front brakes and 13" optional rears but trying to acheive the 29 ft.lbs resulted in one broken bolt and the remaining three with questionable seating as I backed off on the torque setting to 20-25 ft.lbs. Not sure if I started twisting the bolts even at the lower torque. I want to replace all 4 with a better grade bolt and crush washers. Anyone have the actual specs on the banjo bolts or ford part numbers?

[Theshandman]

It would take, what.... 10 seconds to update the document?
Sure would be nice to have on-line access to build manuals. I wonder to what extent F5 vets and incorporates customers' corrections and suggestions. While I'm at it, how about an IPL and p/n lookup? Not sure what's happening in the IT Dept at F5; surely there must be some kind of p/n compendium, how else would they generate the pages of parts descriptions with part numbers you get with all the boxes?

[JohnK]

Not so fast there guys.

Alldata = 30 ft/lb
Haynes = 29 ft/lb
Ford service manual=20-30 ft/lb

Jeff


You fellas are assuming the torque spec is to blame here but IMO that's a cheap banjo bolt from mystery metal that came off the slow boat from the far east.

Not baggin' on FFR here, just sayin'...

I think that it's both of these things. The Ford/Haynes/etc. specs assume an OEM-quality bolt. The bolts that FFR is providing are clearly not that. So IMO FFR needs to either update the manual to a torque spec appropriate to the (crap) banjo bolts that are in the kit, or ideally provide a better quality banjo bolt.

[Hoooper]

Can be tough to determine the correct torque spec when working with chinesium bolts. Better off going by feel than a book torque spec

[J R Jones]

This thread is a couple of months old and I do not see comment on the annomalies. I do not see the copper seal and I do see damaged (chrome?) flat washers. A banjo bolt should have nothing between the head and body but the copper seal. Additionally the B-bolt appears to be chrome. Chrome causes hydrogen embrittlement and weakens the bolt.
The torque that you read on a torque wrench is the sum of drag on the head/seal and the drag in the threads. The load on the threads is stretching the bolt shaft across the (fluid passage) reduced cross section.
I apply a small amount of Permetex non-hardening to the threads to lube them and discourage corrosion. The result is less thread drag twisting the shaft and more clamp load at the seal at a given torque.
I do not measure torque due to decades of experience and a feel for bolt stretch. Not for everyone. Never underestimate the importance of quality fasteners.
jim

[Skip]

I just finished a brake redo on my Mk 3 to include the two piston PBR calipers from a 2000 Mustang rather than the cast iron from a 1994 Mustang that I used during the original build. I used Earls brand banjo bolts from Speedway Motors. I think I used the 10mm by 1.0. Expensive but no problems with the install. I’ve never used any type of sealant or lubricant on banjo bolts.