Cranking but No Start

[austinsnake]

Update from a couple of weeks ago...working to get to a first start after a long hiatus on the project.

Replaced the radiator as the old one revealed a leak when filling back up, and it had a lot of calcium buildup inside. Flushed the block with water in through the top and out through the bottom radiator hose, then filled back up with water. No significant rust was evident in what came out.

I swapped out the fuel injectors for the correct size, matching the MAF, and replaced the fuel pump which was no longer working. The pump now runs for a second or so when the key goes to the run position, and then shuts off as expected. Fuel pressure gets up to about 40psi, and stays there after the car sits for a few minutes, so it would appear the fuel system is working properly.

I drained the old gas out of the tank and added about 2.5 gallons of new fuel.

With a fresh battery, the engine cranks over reliably, but won't fire. I get an occasional sputter, but essentially nothing happening.

So...going back to square one, I removed the #1 spark plug, turned the crank with a socket and made sure I was on the compression stroke, and then aligned the 10 degree BTDC balancer mark with the indicator arrow. I then re-stabbed the distributor and made sure the rotor was aligned with the #1 indicated plug wire (front passenger side cylinder).

I see flashes on a test light plugged in series with the #1 spark plug wire when the engine is cranking, at what would seem to be about the right rate. The tach is also blipping as the engine cranks.

Still no fire (argh!).

So...what do the forum guru's suggest I try next?

Fuel related: Maybe old/bad fuel still in the fuel rail or lines back to the filter/tank? Would cranking the engine not eventually flush that through the system? Maybe fuel pressure, but no fuel flow? That seems less likely.

Electrical: The coil was new 12 yrs ago (I suppose that doesn't mean it works :-) ). Cap and rotor are also new. Maybe the TFI or hall sensor parts of the distributor could be bad?

Pics:
#1 spark plug. Dark black.
The timing set at 10-11 degrees BTDC (on the compression stroke with the rotor pointing at #1 plug wire).
Distributor shaft has a little play in it - maybe the width of a quarter, up and down - within the distributor housing. Is that normal? Looks like it could be secured a bit higher to the housing.

Appreciate your guidance!

Brian

[egchewy79]

Double check your firing order for the plug wires. My SBF Ran best at 14• BTDC. try retarding your timing a bit.

[austinsnake]

Thanks, will check the order and go back another few degrees on the timing and see if that helps.

Also looking up the Comp Cam (K35-312-8) specs to make sure it calls for the standard 5.0 H.O. firing order (13726548).

[bobl]

Spray some starting fluid in the throttle body. If it fires you know it's fuel related. If not then it's ignition. Might just be timing since you had the distributor out.

[austinsnake]

Plug wire order checks out going counter clockwise from #1, which is roughly at 12 o'clock when looking from front to back.
#1 cyl at passenger side front. #8 cyl at driver's side rear.

Adjusted timing 3-5 degrees in both directions with no improvement.

Also tried with SPOUT both in and out. No fire.

Will try some starter fluid in the intake and see if I get any action.

I noticed tonight that with the battery charged to about 12.6v, the ammeter on the dash reads about 11v with the key on. Wondering if that could imply inadequate voltage somewhere. The + side of the coil is about 12.1v so that would seem to be ok.

[cob427sc]

I didn't see what engine year and intake system you have? There is a possibility that the anti-theft system in the computer is not letting the injectors fire. You can test by spraying gas or starting fluid in the intake and if it starts you will know it is the fuel system. Then the fun begins trying to isolate the problem.

[frankb]

The endplay on your distributor is not an issue. During operation, the distributor gear rides on the boss in the block. As for timing, when setting initial timing, I remove the #1 spark plug and rotate the crankshaft until it is at 12 - 14 deg BTC on the compression stroke. With the spark plug connected to the ignition wire and resting on the block, set your ignition key in the "Run" and rotate the distributor CLOCKWISE by hand (you may have to rotate it CCW a bit to be sure you are in the correct position) until you get a spark. Lock the distributor down. This should get you closer than just pointing the rotor to #1 (during normal operation, the spark has occurred before the rotor is fully aligned with the #1 terminal). Once the engine starts, reset the timing with your light.

[BC Huselton]

The endplay on your distributor is not an issue. During operation, the distributor gear rides on the boss in the block. As for timing, when setting initial timing, I remove the #1 spark plug and rotate the crankshaft until it is at 12 - 14 deg BTC on the compression stroke. With the spark plug connected to the ignition wire and resting on the block, set your ignition key in the "Run" and rotate the distributor CLOCKWISE by hand (you may have to rotate it CCW a bit to be sure you are in the correct position) until you get a spark. Lock the distributor down. This should get you closer than just pointing the rotor to #1 (during normal operation, the spark has occurred before the rotor is fully aligned with the #1 terminal). Once the engine starts, reset the timing with your light.

The SBF has 2 set of timing marks on the same compression stroke. There can be timing pointers on the Pass side or Driver side determined by the direction of the water pump. It looks like you are using the Pass side for timing. Turning clock wise, the first set of marks are for the Drivers side followed by another set of marks for the Pass side. If you use the "First Set" of marks instead of the "Second Set" of marks you will be way too early and actually firing before the intake closes all of the way = won't start and may pop up through the intake manifold.

Solution= Get on the Compression stroke and use a TDC Spring tool to assure you are moving passed the First Set of marks and on to the Second set to locate the proper TDC for your pass Side Pointer, then you can install and Phase the dist. Good luck

[J R Jones]

BC, as old s I am, you are describing aspects of spark timing I am not aware of. You may have experienced a SBF that I have not.
Some very basic characteristics as known to me:
* "V" engines have staggered heads/cylinders to allow the big ends of the rods to run next to each other. That means one head is ahead of the other and the furthest forward cylinder is #1.
* A four stroke engine crankshaft rotates two revolutions' for each power event.
* The cam turns at 1/2 the crank revolutions, so one revolution for each power event.
* Each piston has a power event TDC and an exhaust/intake TDC. When #1 has a power event (most firing orders) #6 has a exhaust/intake event, and vice versa.
* One way to identify the #1 power event is that the valves are closed and the rocker arms are unloaded. Not so on #6.

In terms of timing marks on the harmonic balancer, there will be TDC "0" and maybe full advance, approximately 30 degrees earlier. You typically time to "0" and check high RPM advance with the early mark.
So at #1 power TDC the "0" timing mark should be at the reference pointer and the distributor rotor should be at/near #1 spark plug wire post on the cap.
jim

[Flip Smiley]

Clarification. My stock 1990 302 small block Ford has 1 set of timing marks located on the crankshaft dampener. Standing in front of the engine and looking down the marks read left to right. At the far left the scale starts with After Top Dead Center 10 and reading to the right graduated marks stamped TDC, 10, 20, 30 at far right Before Top Dead Center. Only 1 set or timing marks or scale. For reference there are good diagrams in Haynes or Chilton’s manuals.

[BC Huselton]

BC, as old s I am, you are describing aspects of spark timing I am not aware of. You may have experienced a SBF that I have not.
Some very basic characteristics as known to me:
* "V" engines have staggered heads/cylinders to allow the big ends of the rods to run next to each other. That means one head is ahead of the other and the furthest forward cylinder is #1.
* A four stroke engine crankshaft rotates two revolutions' for each power event.
* The cam turns at 1/2 the crank revolutions, so one revolution for each power event.
* Each piston has a power event TDC and an exhaust/intake TDC. When #1 has a power event (most firing orders) #6 has a exhaust/intake event, and vice versa.
* One way to identify the #1 power event is that the valves are closed and the rocker arms are unloaded. Not so on #6.

In terms of timing marks on the harmonic balancer, there will be TDC "0" and maybe full advance, approximately 30 degrees earlier. You typically time to "0" and check high RPM advance with the early mark.
So at #1 power TDC the "0" timing mark should be at the reference pointer and the distributor rotor should be at/near #1 spark plug wire post on the cap.
jim

Perhaps this will help: https://www.vintage-mustang.com/threads/timing-marks-pointer.931449/
The Balancer has multiple TDC marks that relate to different pointer placement. Selecting the wrong one to time with will result in a non start.
As an example, BluePrint's Balancers have different mark placement all over them. They are universal and depending on the direction of your water pump. Very confusing until you do it wrong. Ask me how I know!

The key is to make absolutely certain that you are all the way to the top of the Compression stroke. Do not trust that you are in the correct position because your pointer is on TDC on the Balancer. And, I am not talking about being 180 out. There are 2 sets of timing marks on the same compression Stroke. You go past the first set (for Driver side Pointers) and use the second set if your pointer is on the Pass Side.

[J R Jones]

BC As experienced during a cylinder leak down test. there is only one TDC and it is routinely determined with a probe in the #1 spark plug hole.
The balancer TDC mark is mechanically linked to that position. I have only built with Ford parts. If BP is using generic balancers one would hope that they indicate which TDC reference is to be used. Your BP description is not foolproof or user friendly.
jim

[rich grsc]

BC, you are correct. Many aftermarket balancers have more than one set of markings. Your advice to find and verify which set to use make good sense, especially with any new non-factory balancer.

[Flip Smiley]

BC if you look at the pictures listed in the 1st post you can see the timing pointer and dampener style. These are late model and show 1 scale and pointer style.

[svassh]

If not sure which set of marks is correct you may consider one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Tool-Aid-33650-Center-Indicator/dp/B00C3JELEW/ref=sr_1_3?crid=27OTULA5OF6YR&keywords=TDC+Whistle&qid=1647034535&sprefix=tdc+whistle%2Caps%2C219&sr=8-3

[J R Jones]

austin, If you have not run this combination of parts before then you must determine if the balancer and pointer are a matched set, in this case right side pointer.
As discussed earlier with #1 at compression TDC the balancer timing scale "0" should be at the pointer. If they are a match a timing light while cranking will tell you when the distributor/spark is close. You may need as much as 14 degrees "before 0" to get it to fire.

If the pointer and balancer are not matched at TDC one ot the other must change.
jim

[austinsnake]

Thanks for the replies.

I'll try some starter fluid in the intake to try and isolate it to a fuel or electrical problem (hopefully not both!).

I'll check the indicator and balancer combination and make sure the pointer is right at 0 at TDC on compression, then adjust to 12-15 BTDC.

Will report back!

Brian

[Nigel Allen]

Is it possible that you reinstalled the distributor 1 revolution out of phase?

[austinsnake]

I verified TDC with a compression gauge hose screwed into the #1 cylinder, and taped the finger of a rubber glove over the end. It was easy to see when air was being forced out of the hole. I then stabbed the distributor such that the rotor is facing 12 o'clock when facing the engine from the front.

[rich grsc]

Are you using the original Ford distributor and ECU?

[austinsnake]

Rich,

It's the original Ford distributor, but I recall taking it apart to tidy up the metal and reassembling it. I spose it's possible that I screwed something up there.

The donor was an '87 speed density car, so I swapped out the ECU for an A9L when adding the MAF.

I will reply back with the starter fluid test results ASAP!

[weendoggy]

It sounds like you have the mechanical side of the engine/firing order in tact. If that cam is the other firing order, it'd run, but run like crap. Distributor rotation is CCW.
Ford did not have a PAT system on those years so you can rule that out.
The key on will activate the pump for a few seconds as you have already mentioned. That is normal.
Once the ECU sees RPM rotation, it continues energizing the pump to maintain fuel pressure and fire injectors.
Cranking the engine should supply spark to plugs as long as you're cranking. Pull the coil wire and make sure that is happening then pull plug wires and make sure the same is happening.
Watch fuel pressure to see if it's maintaining or depleting during this time.
While cranking, put a test light on the fuel pump circuit to insure you have the pump running. You will see this as well on the pressure gauge (if you have one installed).
Plug a NOID light on an injector lead to make sure it's getting power. DO NOT use a test light for this.
By the time you do this, you should find your problem. Then start backtracking your work.

[rich grsc]

If you are using the Ford ECU and distributor, be sure you have the plug wiring at the cap correct. The cap should have #1 plug wire marked on it, be sure that's correct.

[seagull81]

Austinsnake, you have a PM.

[ptstew]

I was reminded the hard way with my ‘91 302 that in addition to fuel and spark it needs compression to run. Have you checked it?

[UpstateCobraGuy]

If you have an another coil, swap it out for sh!ts and giggles. I had a no start issue, I had spark, fuel and compression but no start. Drove me absolutely crazzzy! Turned out to be a bad coil, I replace it a 50+ year old one and she fired right up.

[austinsnake]

Quick update on debugging my no start condition:

I have good fuel pressure (40psi) when turning the key to run, and the pump runs and pressure stays up during cranking. I also checked to see that fuel was squirting out of the pressure gauge bypass hose when the pump runs. The injectors are new, so it seems pump operation, pressure and flow are OK.

I also removed the rubber air intake hose at the plenum intake, opened the throttle plate by hand and squirted a good amount of starter fluid in, put the rubber hose back on and then cranked the engine. I did this 3-4 times, and although I got very sporadic firing, it's wasn't consistent or prolonged with the starter fluid, basically the same as without.

I have triple checked for 10-14 degrees BTDC timing on the balancer mark, verified on the compression stroke, with the distributor stabbed with the rotor in the 12 o'clock position, and the distributor adjusted for the #1 position aligned with the rotor (also double checked that the smallest indicator 'tab' inside the distributor is just starting to pass the pickup). I assume there's only one way to bolt the balancer onto the front of the engine such that the timing marks are where they should be.

I did a compression test on the #1 cylinder, and it reached 160psi after 3-4 compression strokes. I stopped cranking during compression, and the pressure stayed at 150-160 psi for several minutes. So it seems the ring and valves are working as expected.

I verified that the plug wires are in 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order, and just for fun I tried the old school 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order with no change. I have not yet been able to 100% verify the cam spec, but the documentation shows it's for an EFI HO motor.

To check the TFI / pickup in the distributor, and coil/spark - I pulled out the distributor, grounded the shaft with a jumper cable to the frame, pulled the coil wire off the distributor and put a spark plug into that connector. With the key in the run position, When slowly spinning the dizzy shaft CCW by hand, I can hear the fuel pump relay turning on and off, the pump running, and the injectors clicking...but I see a sporadic and weak spark from the spark plug. I assumed it would be bright and obvious.

Sooo, I'm thinking this could cause the no start issue, due to one or more of:

- Bad coil? I verified full battery voltage on both input wires to the coil with the key in run.
Short of buying a new one, is there any way to test it?

- Bad TFI module? Any way to bench test this?

- Bad pickup? Seems that this must be working or I wouldn't be getting any fuel pump or injector activity while spinning the dizzy.

- Could the ignition switch or other wiring somehow cause the lack of a big fat spark?

I have a generous Forum offer to try a known good distributor.

Thanks for any other advice!

Brian

[J R Jones]

Brian, After these attempts, do you inspect the plugs? Are they wet? If so you should blow dry them between attempts.
When you "checked for 10-14 degrees BTDC timing on the balancer mark" that is with a timing light at cranking speed?
"with the distributor stabbed with the rotor in the 12 o'clock position" Stabbed = installed? The distributor does not care what time, it is just one gear turning another.
"the smallest indicator 'tab' inside the distributor is just starting to pass the pickup" This is the hall sensor and cup? The cup is not adjustable but should be keyed to the shaft, one way only. The alternating slots trigger the coil.
BTW Is this MSD ignition? they have terrific customer service for troubleshooting.
"the pressure stayed at 150-160 psi for several minutes" The pressure is usually captured in the gage, not the cylinder and gage, but 160PSI is good.
Yes the coil does seem weak. "I verified full battery voltage on both input wires to the coil" I do not know about your coil and system, I am familiar with one positive input terminal and one ground terminal.
An automotive electric shop can test the coil, maybe Autozone/O'reilley?

You could try your own test. Battery, coil, coil wire, spark plug, jumper lead.
Common ground to the plug housing and coil negative and battery negative,
Attach the spark plug to the coil output wire. Hold 12V positive to the other coil terminal. When you disconnect 12v, the spark plug should fire.
jim

[bobl]

I don't see where you replaced the spark plugs. That's one of the first things I would do. The picture looks like it's pretty fouled. Also, what heads are you running and what plugs are those? It looks like the ground electrode is cut back, maybe a race plug? I have a spare aftermarket coil if you would like to try it.

[austinsnake]

J R - thanks for the note...to your questions:
The plugs are not wet. Just black.
The engine doesn't run, so the timing is just set via the balancer mark and rotor/distributor position on the compression stroke, as a starting point.

Bob - appreciate the offer to borrow a coil. I picked up a new one today and will see if that helps tonight.
I will also double check the plugs vs. the spec for my AFR heads.

Brian

[bobl]

AFR heads should use an Autolite 3924 or equivalent.

[phileas_fogg]

Take a look inside the TFI connector & look for arcing? Pictures of mine below.

John

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49908354078_b935f71e88_4k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTq)IMG_6122 (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTq) by jhsitton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/91016165@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49908354118_6ef584bd1e_4k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emU7)IMG_6123 (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emU7) by jhsitton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/91016165@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49908354098_4a04fb8397_4k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTL)IMG_6126 (https://flic.kr/p/2j3emTL) by jhsitton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/91016165@N07/), on Flickr

[AROCK]

You keep trying to set initial timing at 12-14 degrees when you don't know what balancer you have on the engine. Ford used 3 different balancer location . 10,11 and 2 pocock. You must know what balancer is on your engine and have the correct pointer to go with it. You also have to run the engine to find the correct initial timing at idle. You can get close to initial time by using a piston stop and rotate engine clock wise then rotate the engine back cc. Then divide the 2 measurements that will give you tdc and a close initial timing. You can't just put in initial timing g unless you advance or retard the distributor or the cam.
You can also find out how your balancer is clocked by using the piston stop method. You 0 tdc will be ar10 12 or 2 o'clock. I hope this helps.

[Railroad]

I vote for the TFI module. I try to replace them with a Ford brand, even used Ford is better than replacement brands, IMO.

[austinsnake]

Quick update, after trying a loaner coil and distributor, and seeing no change, I put a noid light on the injector connectors, and instead of intermittent strong pulses while cranking, I get a very dim, always on / pulsating glow.

Each injector connector has batt voltage with the key on, and the non batt ground wires to each injector check out with low resistance to the EEC connector.

So, now checking to see if the batt voltage may be collapsing at the injectors while cranking.

Could be the computer drivers are just not grounding the injectors. I took the A9L apart and the board and typically suspect caps look ok. The computer is cycling the fuel pump as expected, and flashes the expected '11' code in KOEO self test mode, so it's not totally dead for sure.

Getting closer! Thanks for all the inputs.

Update:
The voltage on the red wire to the injector connectors starts at the batt voltage (12.5-13.0V) with the key ON (not cranking), and drops about 3.5V while cranking (9.0-9.5V).

As noted above, the noid light is always on, pulsating with a very dim glow while cranking, vs. a hard flash at the interval of spark timing.

[seagull81]

How is it going, Brian? Any updates?