Coyote gen 3 trouble code

[vern smith]

I have a Gen 3 Coyote engine purchased through F5. The engine starts and seems to run fine. The Ford instruction manual M-6017-M50B Control Pack - 2018 Coyote 5.0L Manual trans was used for the install along with the F5 install manual for adapting this engine to the F5 wiring harness. My malfunction light comes on every time I start the engine. Reading from the data link connector, P2008 (intake manifold runner control circuit/open Bank 1), P2021 and 2022 (Intake manifold runner position sensor/switch circuit/high bank 1) and (Intake manifold runner position sensor/switch circuit/high bank 2). Anyone have any idea what's going on here? I called Ford Performance and they seemed to have trouble identifying what engine I have, requesting pictures. I sent them pictures a couple days ago with no response.

Some internet research indicates that the Gen 3 engines do not have the manifold runner position sensors but the 2015 Gen 2 engines did. Seems like my PCM may be looking for something I don't have.

I can probably live with this but down the road another code may come up and it will be ignored.

[Al_C]

Maybe you tried this already, but if not.... a) clear the code. b) run the engine again and see if the code returns. If not, you're good.

Believe it or not, I got this advice from Ford on a different code not that long ago. I believe it's actually common to try it. Sometimes, for whatever reason, PCMs go crazy and issue random codes. If you have a Gen 3 and this is a Gen 2 code, then probability is in your favor that it won't return. I hope I'm right ;)

[edwardb]

I agree clear the code(s) and see if they come back. But assuming they're valid, first I've heard the Gen 3 may not have trouble codes for the IMRC (aka CMCV) function. I doubt that's correct. My first question is how do you have them plumbed? Did you provide vacuum to the reservoir inside the manifold that powers the system? Unfortunately, neither the Ford Performance or Factory Five instructions address this. Never understood that. Described here: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26630-Edwardb%92s-Gen-3-Type-65-Coyote-Coupe-59-Build-Complete-and-Graduated&p=351623&viewfull=1#post351623.

Just an aside comment. You are aware the Gen 3 will require a custom tune? You say it's running fine now. I assume that means starts, maybe even go-kart. But once you start driving for real, you'll find it's basically not drivable. The stock tune from Ford is very rich (will often throw codes for that reason alone) and with the non-stock cold are intake, the MAF calibration will be way off.

[vern smith]

The code comes back continually. As you can see from the picture below my gen 3 intake is quite different from the picture you posted in your link. As per the F5 Coyote instructions I ran a vacuum hose to the fuel pressure regulator (red arrow). I have not made any other vacuum connections. A friend has a Snap On analyzer which we used to get the codes. I asked him if this instrument would download a file that could be used for a custom tune and he said no. Where do I get the equipment to do a custom tune? Thanks for the help, any recommendations for a "custom tuner" would be appreciated.

I attached a picture that was 850 pixels wide. The forum reduced it, how do you attach pictures that show up full size?

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[Hoooper]

The code comes back continually. As you can see from the picture below my gen 3 intake is quite different from the picture you posted in your link.

Your gen 3 intake is actually a gen 1 boss intake. It seems the gen 3 IMRCs are not directly compatible with gen 1 and 2. Guys online discuss the need to tune out IMRC when using a 2018+ intake on a gen 1 and the need to adjust the tune for it to work on a gen 2, so it would follow that using a gen 1 intake on a gen 3 engine would at least require some tune modification for it to work properly.

On a side note which maybe doesnt matter since the boss looks a lot nicer, it seems nobody really is swapping a 2018+ intake out for a Boss, the 2018+ intake is supposed to be a much better piece

[toadster]

Your gen 3 intake is actually a gen 1 boss intake. It seems the gen 3 IMRCs are not directly compatible with gen 1 and 2. Guys online discuss the need to tune out IMRC when using a 2018+ intake on a gen 1 and the need to adjust the tune for it to work on a gen 2, so it would follow that using a gen 1 intake on a gen 3 engine would at least require some tune modification for it to work properly.

On a side note which maybe doesnt matter since the boss looks a lot nicer, it seems nobody really is swapping a 2018+ intake out for a Boss, the 2018+ intake is supposed to be a much better piece

agree here, I am doing a Gen3 and will be removing the CMCVs for space and those codes will show up until I get them tuned out...
a tuner can remove those checks and will no longer throw the codes...

[edwardb]

Your gen 3 intake is actually a gen 1 boss intake. It seems the gen 3 IMRCs are not directly compatible with gen 1 and 2. Guys online discuss the need to tune out IMRC when using a 2018+ intake on a gen 1 and the need to adjust the tune for it to work on a gen 2, so it would follow that using a gen 1 intake on a gen 3 engine would at least require some tune modification for it to work properly.

On a side note which maybe doesnt matter since the boss looks a lot nicer, it seems nobody really is swapping a 2018+ intake out for a Boss, the 2018+ intake is supposed to be a much better piece

This is exactly right. The picture I posted (via link) was of a stock Gen 3 intake. Which I assumed you had since you said a Gen 3 Coyote. Not so obviously. The Boss intake does not have intake manifold runner controls (IMRC) but the stock tune in your PCM is expecting them. Hence the trouble codes. The tune will have to be adjusted to eliminate the calls to the IMRC system and the trouble codes. Agreed as well that the 2018 intake as been proven multiple times to provide the best performance. But some are willing to take the hit for the Boss intake because it is admittedly much better looking. Perhaps more so for the earlier Coyote versions. First time I've seen it on a Gen 3.

As far as custom tunes, you're for sure going to need one. For that intake, for the missing IMRC system, and just the Gen 3 in general. Your overall combination will need to be calibrated to work together. It's not something that's DIY with the Ford PCM. At least not for most (including me...). I've used Lund Racing for my tunes. Do a great job but due to demand not cheap. I don't have any experience with any others so can't give any more recommendations. There may be someone local with the expertise.

[vern smith]

I'll contact Lund Racing. This is probably why the Ford guys asked for pictures, however I still have not heard back from them. If I understand what you are saying I don't have the best intake although I ordered the gen 3 Coyote engine-clutch-tramsmission package from F5 the beginning of 2021. I'm not sure it's worth the effort to complain about it so I'll run her as she is. Again, thanks for the help.

A quick reply from the Lund web site gave me a choice, the HP Tuners RTD Gen 3 Coyote (18-20) engine swap for $ 1,300.00 or Gen 3 Coyote (18-20) engine swap for $800.00. I assume I need the $1,300 package :confused:

I've found a semi local tuner/dyno shop that has a good reputation. You take the car to them and they do it on their dyno. Anyone taken this route?

[toadster]

I'll contact Lund Racing. This is probably why the Ford guys asked for pictures, however I still have not heard back from them. If I understand what you are saying I don't have the best intake although I ordered the gen 3 Coyote engine-clutch-tramsmission package from F5 the beginning of 2021. I'm not sure it's worth the effort to complain about it so I'll run her as she is. Again, thanks for the help.
A quick reply from the Lund web site gave me a choice, the HP Tuners RTD Gen 3 Coyote (18-20) engine swap for $ 1,300.00 or Gen 3 Coyote (18-20) engine swap for $800.00. I assume I need the $1,300 package :confused:
I've found a semi local tuner/dyno shop that has a good reputation. You take the car to them and they do it on their dyno. Anyone taken this route?

wow that IS pricey!
I know Paul (and others) have had good luck with Lund, I believe the $1300 option includes the tuner, the $800 seems like just the tune and you provide your own HP Tuners RTD or unlocked LR nGauge

[edwardb]

I've done three Lund Racing tunes (two Gen 2's one Gen 3) and during that time their price as nearly doubled. I can only assume this is due to the volume they are most certainly getting during these crazy times. They do a very good job. But obviously not cheap. If you can find a local tuner who knows the crate engine tune (important, it's different than a standard Mustang) then most likely it will be cheaper and for many a dyno tune is preferrable. One other thing about the Lund Racing tune. Most know this, but just pointing out -- the method is they initially send a beginning tune based on your answers to their questions. Then you drive the car logging data in the manner they describe. You send the data, they modify the tune as needed, rinse and repeat enough times to where they're happy with what they see in the data and you're happy with what you feel in the seat of your pants. The obvious point is the car must be drivable. That means complete and legal. I would never recommend doing the tuning process with any less, e.g. in the go-kart stage. One of the final tests is WOT (wide open throttle) and even in 2nd the Coyote will push you to the 100mph range. Ask me how I know.

[vern smith]

If I understand where I am, I have a gen 3 Coyote engine and Ford appears to have installed a gen 1 intake on it? The tune shop tells me there should be stuff at the back of the intake if I have a gen 3 but it is not there. I'm not sure if I really have a gen 3, although the invoice says it is.

On another topic in full droop I have zero clearance between the real coil overs the the tire side wall, see picture. The wheels are Halibrand replica 17" x 10.5" that came with the kit. I realize with the suspension at ride height there is some clearance but it's marginal.

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[toadster]

so you bought it new this way? I'm perplexed... do you have the F5 documentation on this?
FFR used to have a site where you could see the engine details, but I cannot seem to find it anymore

https://lmr.com/products/what-is-a-coyote-engine

this is an OEM Ford Intake for the Gen3 coyote
163078
the BOSS 302 intake is what you have, it doesn't have the CMCV/IMRC valves at the back of the intake like the Gen3 intake - hence the codes it's looking for...
163079

[Hoooper]

If I understand where I am, I have a gen 3 Coyote engine and Ford appears to have installed a gen 1 intake on it? The tune shop tells me there should be stuff at the back of the intake if I have a gen 3 but it is not there. I'm not sure if I really have a gen 3, although the invoice says it is.

The 2 layers of fuel rails crossing the front says gen 3. Gen 3 engines got dual injection (both direct and port) while the previous engines just have port. You can also verify by looking down beside the intake and seeing if there are additional injectors below the port injectors. Additionally I would bet a gen 3 computer wouldnt even start and run properly on a gen 1 or 2, plus you would have 8 "extra" injector connectors on the gen 3 harness just sitting there unconnected. I doubt Ford put a gen 1 intake on a gen 3, seems more likely somebody in the chain of custody of that engine had a boss intake and wanted to upgrade to a gen 3 intake so decided to take yours


On another topic in full droop I have zero clearance between the real coil overs the the tire side wall, see picture. The wheels are Halibrand replica 17" x 10.5" that came with the kit. I realize with the suspension at ride height there is some clearance but it's marginal.

This is normal, until you get it on the ground AND get it aligned you cant be sure what the clearance actually is. At full droop my tires rub on my springs.

[edwardb]

Probably the single easiest way to spot a Gen 3 Coyote is the DI (Direct Injection) pump on the RH cylinder head. It's the shiny round piece in this picture. It's placement also means the coil on plug in that location is different than all the rest. In the background you can see the CMCV/IMRC vacuum motor on the 2018 intake. Also, to the question about the PCM's for the different versions. None of them are compatible. Gen 1 and Gen 2 use a different tune (Ford calls it a calibration) in a Continental Automotive sourced PCM. The Gen 3 has yet a different tune in a Bosch sourced PCM. Also, X2 on don't get too excited about the apparent rear shock interference. Ride height plus alignment will resolve.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=92340&d=1535751841

[Hacksaw84]

If I understand where I am, I have a gen 3 Coyote engine and Ford appears to have installed a gen 1 intake on it? The tune shop tells me there should be stuff at the back of the intake if I have a gen 3 but it is not there. I'm not sure if I really have a gen 3, although the invoice says it is. On another topic in full droop I have zero clearance between the real coil overs the the tire side wall, see picture. The wheels are Halibrand replica 17" x 10.5" that came with the kit. I realize with the suspension at ride height there is some clearance but it's marginal.
[/ATTACH]

Its hard to tell but looking at the pic you posted it appears to be a gen 3 from the dual fuel hard lines running across the front under the throttle body. Also, unrelated but that vacuum line plug on the nipple that comes straight up off the coolant housing is a bad idea. It will eventually blow off. I have that routed back to my coolant tank and not capped.

Everyone has good info for you on here. You have a Boss 302 intake manifold. It was a good option for the Gen 1 & Gen 2 coyotes especially if running a centrifugal blower or turbos. Plus it looks a little nicer. But the gen 3 (2018+) intake has been proven to be a very good performer for the money. The IMRCs help in a few categories like cold start, drivability and low end torque. For all out power the best is still the Cobra Jet intake manifold. I am honestly surprised the car does not go into limp mode without it the IMRC system hooked up. There are a couple good videos on it out there, here is one from VMP (You can see the Boss at 3:40):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO8N-wRcVPk


You do need a tune. Lund is a good company who is very familiar with the coyotes but they have gotten expensive. There are other options out there to tune it. Like VMP, AED Tuning or Palm Beach Dyno.

[Railroad]

What are the chances it is a Boss crate engine and a Gen 3 ECU? Happy, Happy, Happy!

[vern smith]

I found a number etched into the block, the location being best described as "if the starter was on the drivers side it's right behind it" I looks like a number F5 put on, not Ford. I guess the best thing I can do is find out from F5 what they sold me :D The car was shipped less than a year ago so I hope their were not some gen 2 and gen 1 engines sitting around for them to substitute. I'll get back when I know what I have. Once again thanks for the help.

[mstngman]

Did you ever solve this issue? it only takes a couple adjustments to turn off the IMRC control system, certainly not worth 1,300. SCT your looking at 400$ plus min cost for tune 150$ or Pro race Pack device including base tube and value files. your calibration or strategy FMJJ4?

[Hacksaw84]

I found a number etched into the block, the location being best described as "if the starter was on the drivers side it's right behind it" I looks like a number F5 put on, not Ford. I guess the best thing I can do is find out from F5 what they sold me :D The car was shipped less than a year ago so I hope their were not some gen 2 and gen 1 engines sitting around for them to substitute. I'll get back when I know what I have. Once again thanks for the help.

Just post a picture of the passenger side (the valve cover) and its easy to tell if its a Gen3 or not. Like Paul said above about the DI pump.

[Hacksaw84]

What are the chances it is a Boss crate engine and a Gen 3 ECU? Happy, Happy, Happy!

I'm pretty sure 0% :)