First oil change (that I've done since purchase) and questions...

[john42]

This is a challenge car with a 302 engine. It does not have a dipstick.... Which is a key point..

First oil change I've personally done on the car, the oil coming out looked great. Still very golden brown. I've driven it about 4k miles and a change was done right before I bought it. It is supposed to take 9 quarts. all good so far...

The catch is, measuring the oil coming out, I got 5 quarts. I let it drain over night.

I did not find evidence of leaks before changing it. While it was empty, I cleaned the underneath very thoroughly and will be checking it carefully.

So, 2 basic questions:

How concerned should I be?

Is there an alternate method to check the oil level... without a dipstick..

[Blitzboy54]

A Ford 302 takes 5 quarts of oil. I’m not sure where the 9 came from but unless you have an enormous oil pan that can’t be right.

I think you’re right where you should be.

[Papa]

I would consider adding a dip stick. Guessing at the level can lead to issues that could easily be avoided. If you pulled 5-qts out, I'd question whether it was under-filled or if the 9-qt. capacity is correct.

[john42]

A Ford 302 takes 5 quarts of oil. I’m not sure where the 9 came from but unless you have an enormous oil pan that can’t be right.

I think you’re right where you should be.

Yeah it has a fairly sizable oil pan. I got 9 from the builder. Though I was just messaging with him and we've revised the number to 8. My next question would be... I just put 9 in.... now what. Drain a quart? that doesn't sound fun.

[john42]

I would consider adding a dip stick. Guessing at the level can lead to issues that could easily be avoided. If you pulled 5-qts out, I'd question whether it was under-filled or if the 9-qt. capacity is correct.

I'd love to. The hole in the block has been welded closed though. It would have to be drilled and tapped.

[egchewy79]

I'm guessing it has a rear sump racing pan? the stock pan has a front sump and the dipstick comes out of the timing chain cover. If you have too much oil in, it'll splash too much and get too aerated, decreasing the lubrication properties. You might not want to hear this but you could consider swapping out the pan with one w/ a dipstick bung built in.

[john42]

I'm guessing it has a rear sump racing pan? the stock pan has a front sump and the dipstick comes out of the timing chain cover. If you have too much oil in, it'll splash too much and get too aerated, decreasing the lubrication properties. You might not want to hear this but you could consider swapping out the pan with one w/ a dipstick bung built in.

Ya pretty sure it is:

162858



So, I need to look for a rear sump pan with dipstick.

[rich grsc]

that is a rear sump

[egchewy79]

wonder why no dipstick? maybe since it was a challenge car, the previous owner just changed oil after every track day?

I have a 7qt kevco pan on my SBF. good quality and price.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Just a WAG looking at the picture if the pan comes down to near the bottom of the 4" tubes its about 8 quarts.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=161295&d=1643227564

Looks similar in size

[john42]

Just a WAG looking at the picture if the pan comes down to near the bottom of the 4" tubes its about 8 quarts.

Looks similar in size

Yep it's 8q. I'll drain a quart. Also, beginning to shop rear sump oil pans with dip stick bung for a 302.

[johnnybgoode]

That really looks like a Quality Roadsters pan. Are you sure there isn't a bung for the dipstick on the driver's side at the back of the pan to the rear and above the oil temp bung?

See pic below. My pan is for a 351 maybe the 302 pan is different or maybe the dipstick was optional?

If you have the bung I can take my dipstick and tube out and measure them for you. Scott


162870

[john42]

Found the leak! Its oil pain very rear right in the low center of the rear main bearing.

Thanks for the help guys.

Now, if I'm going to replace the gasket anyway, I should replace the pan while I'm at it and get one with a dipstick. Any good recommendations for an oil pan?

[Bob Cowan]

Found the leak! Its oil pain very rear right in the low center of the rear main bearing.


Don't count on it. Every oil leak on a SBF shows up there first. Even if the front cover is leaking, it will show up there first.

[Avalanche325]

You can have a bung welded to the pan you have. Or, if it is a street car now, do you really need oil temp? You could possibly use that bung for a dipstick.

[Railroad]

If you pull the pan, check the cast bung on the block. I find it unusual, it is welded up. Most would use a welch plug or some curing filler. If it is indeed welded, drilling it out may be a chore. Just accept your level of abilities.

[johnnybgoode]

Just a final thought. You might want to check the PS side of the timing cover to see if it has a dipstick hole bung/plug behind the balancer/pointer. If it does you could remove the plug and install a dipstick there and cut/mark the dipstick to work in that location. The pan you have should be deep enough in the front to get a proper oil level reading. My 2 cents. Scott

[john42]

Just a final thought. You might want to check the PS side of the timing cover to see if it has a dipstick hole bung/plug behind the balancer/pointer. If it does you could remove the plug and install a dipstick there and cut/mark the dipstick to work in that location. The pan you have should be deep enough in the front to get a proper oil level reading. My 2 cents. Scott

I'll look. I've also been talking with Mark (the builder) and he greatly put my mind at ease. The basic idea behind the setup they did in this car is basically 302's... leak.. especially problematic on a race engine. 302 is a 5 quart system. They did a 9 quart pan so they basically wouldn't have to worry about it. Thing to keep on eye on is the oil pressure gauge. So for now I'm holding off on this expense and not worrying about it. The current leak is tiny. Barely a pin head of oil. Taking it apart (knowing me!) would likely make it worse. Given this knowledge I'm a lot less concerned about not having a dipstick. Would still be nice tho!

I'll look for a hole on the balancer p/s. Pretty sure Mark would have brought that up if it was there tho, but easy to look!

Thanks for all the help and replies! Always learning a lot!

[rich grsc]

WHAT??? 302's leak, NO, not if they are assembled correctly, and your means of checking the oil is when the oil pressure drops, it's time to add oil? Who the hell thinks like that. By the time the oil pressure drops, you've damaged the bearings. If thats how the builder thinks, I'd not trust one thing he did. You're worried about the expense of adding a dipstick, think instead about the expense of rebuilding the engine

[NAZ]

It's common that a race engine doesn't have a dip stick as the oil gets changed after every race. Dip sticks are one more potential source of oil leaks in a high revving engine with lot's of crankcase pressure. But a street car with much longer oil change intervals should have a dip stick. And be careful of oil capacity ratings, some will give you pan capacity and some will give you pan & filter capacities and not be clear which they are stating. When it comes to adding oil, more is not better and adding more is not the same thing as more oil capacity, which does have benefits.

Your first oil change -- did you cut open the filter and inspect it? You should cut the filter on every oil change but the first couple is where you will expect to see some metal. It's another health indicator of your engine.

[J R Jones]

I agree with Rich and NAZ, I roadraced SBF in SCCA and don't remember problems with the dipstick. Besides oil level the stick gives you an indication of what is going on inside. What is the oil clarity, color and smell?
Even the fill cap can indicate a malfunction like a blown gasket or cracked head, when the oil film looks like mushroom soup.
jim

[john42]

Ordered today a new gasket and stuff today. Decided to jump in and just do it. I also plan to drill out the dipstick hole.

I cut open the oil filter. Very clean. The oil that came out also appeared very golden brown still.

[johnnybgoode]

Here are the installation instructions for the QR pan. Your's looks very similar. I followed these to the letter last year when I had my pan off and it has not leaked a drop. Good Luck. Scott

https://www.ffcars.com/threads/oil-pan-powder-coat-and-re-install-with-fel-pro-os30616r-gasket.642583/#post-6116554

OIL PAN INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS


Congratulations on your purchase of a Quality Roadsters oil pan, the only oil pan designed from the ground up specifically for your FFR! The Quality Roadsters 302 pans are designed to use the stock Mustang oil pickup tube and dipstick. On Mustang donor engines, simply remove the stock pan and install your new pan. If using a 302 crate, explorer engine, or other, you must use a stock 87-93 Mustang pickup tube, (or our high flow tube), and a stock 87-93 dipstick. Our 351W pans come with a replacement pickup tube and dipstick designed to work with your new pan. You may also purchase one of our high flow pickup tubes. If you are using a main cap girdle, the regular pickup tube may not clear. In this case, you must use our high flow pickup tube. It is designed to clear most girdles. Any girdle will require custom work on the pickup tube in order to work.

Make sure the gasket surfaces are clean. I recommend you clean your new pan before installation as well. Double check to make sure the windage tray bolts are tight before installation. You must check pickup tube to oil pan clearance before installing your pan. To do this, install your pickup tube, and measure from the bottom of the block to the bottom of the pickup tube. Measure vertically, not on an angle. The pickup must be 1/2 inch from the bottom of the pan. Measure the depth of the pan and compare. The pickup tube bracket may be bent to adjust the clearance if necessary. Test fit the pan to make sure there are no clearance issues. Put the pan in place on the engine. If the pan holes wont line up with the block, it’s probably the scraper hitting the pick up tube. Wiggle the pan back and forth to make a scratch mark on the scraper to determine where you need to make your adjustments. Simply bend the scraper down in those areas until it clears. While the pan is in place, rotate the engine backwards to check for crankshaft to scraper interference. If the crank is hitting the scraper, you will hear it, and it will leave a mark on the scraper. Again, simply bend the scraper down in those areas. I suggest you give the crank a little extra room just in case you miscalculate. You may also find that the back lip of the pan (where it goes around the rear main bearing cap) hits the transmission dust shield, preventing the pan holes from lining up just right. If this is the case, you can gently tap the lip in with a hammer. Once you have solved any clearance issues, you may perform the final install. Apply a small dab of RTV sealant to the block on both sides of the rear main cap (in the corners), both sides of the ½ circle on the timing cover (in the corners) and where the timing cover meets the block. I recommend Felpro pan gasket part # OS34508R for the 302 and OS34506R or OS30616R for the 351W depending on engine year (see your parts supplier). This is a one-piece rubber gasket reinforced with metal, and if installed properly it’s virtually leak proof. If the engine is in the car and gravity is working against you, use some interior trim adhesive to hold the gasket to the block (such as 3M super trim adhesive). The gasket must be installed on the engine, and then the pan put in place. Do not attempt to install the gasket on the pan, and then put the pan in place. Make sure the gasket is in place over the main cap and the ½ circle on the timing cover. Once the gasket is in place, apply a layer of RTV to the pan on both side flanges and to the gasket in the corners at the main cap, and on the timing cover to prevent leaks. Install the pan. If your original pan had flange reinforcement brackets, do not use them. Also the stock Mustang pan bolts are to long and will bottom out in the block before the pan is tight. In all cases MR GASKET oil pan bolt kit part# 6087 works nicely. The flange on the heads of the larger bolts is sometimes too large to seat properly. In this case, grind off enough of the flange on the bolts to fit properly. Check that the gasket is properly in place (especially on the main cap and ½ circle on the timing cover) and tighten the bolts. The Felpro gasket has metal rings around each hole to prevent the gasket from being over tightened. Check your drain plug to make sure it is tight. Install your oil temp sender or the pipe plug and fill with oil. Use Teflon tape on the pipe threads. The pan has a minimum capacity of 8 quarts. You can run more if you like, but do not go over the full mark on the dipstick. Make sure the dipstick is installed at the proper angle in order to get a correct reading. The dipstick tube should be close to the cylinder head if installed properly. You must also add enough oil to fill the filter (about a quart), and to fill the oil cooler (if you are using one). An oil cooler and lines can hold as much as 2 quarts.

[john42]

Thank you Junnybgoode!

[john42]

As I collect the necessary parts and prepare for re-doing the oil pan gasket. Doing some sanity checks before I'm up to my elbows in oil next weekend.

First here's a photo of "the leak"

163192

Here's a photo of the paper towel under the leak after 12 hours have passed.

163193

As can be seen, the towel is clean. The first droplet hasn't dropped yet and not much has gathered on the rim of the divider plate. Also the location puzzles me. Being on the transmission divider plate. The oil run comes right down the center from the oil pan, but all my reading and also posts here repeatedly say say it could be coming from above. ie. the rear main or even a valve cover. I continue to clean and watch carefully. A lot of tough spots to clean and keep a watchful eye on....

[john42]

3 days. Quarter for scale:

163264

Really hoping it's the pan gasket and not something like the rear bearing gasket. I've received all the parts; so this weekend, I'll replace and also drill out the hole for the dipstick and install that too.

[john42]

Welp.... gasket is done. While I had everything cleaned up, and I was prepping to put in the new gasket I noticed this:

163828


And now after the pan is back on, I have a drip in exactly the same place. So....... now I'm reasonably certain my leak is the rear main seal. On the bright side, I have a dipstick!

[rich grsc]

OK, what is the picture supposed to show? I see oil on the crank and on the inside of the rear main cap.

[Norm B]

I think I see a stream of oil down the front backing plate from the rear of the rear main cap. Hard to tell if it is a leak or contamination from disassembly.

Norm

[john42]

I think I see a stream of oil down the front backing plate from the rear of the rear main cap. Hard to tell if it is a leak or contamination from disassembly.

Norm

It was perfectly clean/dry about an hour before this pic was taken. I would expect a bit of oil on the inside lip below the rear main, but not on the outside lip. Can also see the seepage between the divider plate and engine block. After I cleaned again, I let it sit and had the same result. I put it all back together, new gaskets, and I have an oil drip in the exact same place. Right down the divider plate.

So now I'm tasked with pulling the tranny, bell housing, clutch etc and replacing the rear main seal.

[Norm B]

Before you do all that work very carefully check the top of the bell housing. Any oil leaking from the intake, PCV system or valve covers can collect on the block and seep down between the backing plate and block. It would be a shame to take everything apart for no reason!
If you do have to take it apart, make sure to put a little sealant between the rear main bearing cap and block on reassembly. The flywheel bolts should also have a little sealant.

Good luck

Norm

[Bob Cowan]

Now that you have it all together and running, I strongly advise you to do a smoke test. Every leak in a SBF ends up right where yours is. Even a small leak at the fuel pump boss will show up there; been there, done that. :)

[john42]

Now that you have it all together and running, I strongly advise you to do a smoke test. Every leak in a SBF ends up right where yours is. Even a small leak at the fuel pump boss will show up there; been there, done that. :)


What's a smoke test? :-)

I'll also google that!

edit:

LoL. ya googled that. interesting. Seems simple enough to make one.

[john42]

Now that a dipstick has been installed for over a month. I've been carefully monitoring the oil levels. It continues to show an extremely slow seeping of oil at the rear main seal. It doesn't seem to actually drip. There is also, no measurable change in the oil level on the dipstick. I'm beginning to believe I only noticed it because I cleaned everything so much while I was changing the oil as I was looking for how the hole for the dipstick to figure out how it was sealed. Went to a buddies shop who had a rig to do a smoke test and we didn't detect any leaks. Of course the engine was all warmed up too. For the moment I've come to the idea that I've likely detected the extremely early signs of a rear main seal leek. I'll continue to monitor the oil level now that I have a dipstick (lol) and I'm keeping a white mat under it in the garage to keep on eye on it. At present I'll plan on changing out the seal as next Winters project. It's Spring now! Time to drive!

[AC Bill]

After reading this entire thread, your concerns now that you know the oil capacity, and you have the benefit of a dipstick, are mute.
The engine probably burns more oil than what it leaks.
Get out and drive it..:)