Update: Switching to Dart 427 from Coyote on my order with a June completion date

[Jammer369]

Hey guys,

For the past 8 years I have dreamed about building a roadster I have always planned on putting a coyote in it. When I placed my order last Oct, all of the coyote options were still somewhat reasonable. I had planned on going with Mike Forte's Gen 3/TKX package with a base price of $14.3k. By the time you add on the Moroso oil pan and a few other items, the total would be right around $16k. Now that $14.3k base price is up to $18k with total all in of around $20k and I am not yet ready to order the motor so I may still go up from there.

That is getting a little rich for my blood and now I am starting to consider more budget friendlier options like Mike's Dart 347/tkx combo although I would want to add an EFI onto it. That package is right around $13k which is much easier to handle.

My question concerns my motor mount and header options I placed with my order in Oct. I obviously order the coyote mounts and coyote w/ball flange headers. Dan said I could change any of the options on the order up until 2 weeks prior to my completion date (Jun 18). I have read that the dart 347 uses the same mounts as the 302 but you just have to shave off a little due to the beefier dart block. Are the frame attachment points where the motor mounts bolt to the frame the same for the 302 and the coyote? In other words, if I were to switch to the 347, would that mean a welding change on the frame to accommodate the change from coyote mounts to the 302 mounts?

Second question is regarding the headers. I would really like to get the ball flange headers for flexibility in adjusting but I only see the ball flange headers offered for the Coyote or LS motor options. Does FFR make a ball flange header that would fit the dart 347?

Thanks,
Troy

[michael everson]

No changes to the frame needed between the motors. Ball flange headers are available for both coyote and 302 based engines. Personally I would find a way to make the coyote price work. FFR also offers a coyote package.
Mike

[GoDadGo]

Do you want the Thumpity Thump Thump of a Well-Cammed Old-School V8 or do you want the smooth consistent pulling power of the Coyote?
Is opening the hood to show off your engine at car shows important to you?
Tough questions but you'll figure it out, I'm 100% sure of that.

Good Luck & Understand That Either Choice Is A Good Choice!

[nucjd19]

Yep to the above. I have the BPE 347 and it has the bal flange header. Surprised that the Coyote engines are increasing so much but the other old school engine combos aren't increasing at the same rate. Supply and demand I guess. Both are great options that push the car down the road very quickly :)

[Hoodlum60]

Have you thought about a low mileage pull out from a wrecked Mustang? Engine/trans with the ECM included might make economic sense.

I personally went for the old school bored and stroked thumper for a Cobra. My last mod motor was a 5.8 in a 14 GT500. Put a blower on that Coyote and really have some fun!

[rthomas98]

Yep to the above. I have the BPE 347 and it has the bal flange header. Surprised that the Coyote engines are increasing so much but the other old school engine combos aren't increasing at the same rate. Supply and demand I guess. Both are great options that push the car down the road very quickly :)

Microchips. The coyote has got them all over it not just in the PCM. On top of that Ford has shifted a lot of coyote production towards F-150 due to microchip shortages on 2.7L. Aftermarket is the first place to take the hit on where to get needed capacity.

[Hoooper]

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/CPSLS3T56.html ;)

But seriously, if it is coming down to it you can always buy the coyote crate, control pack, trans, and ancillary parts and do the work yourself to save the amount you need to save. Buying them as separate parts and assembling yourself will save you a few thousand if you shop carefully. Youll still be in more than the 347/tkx assembled option though.

[Jammer369]

Do you want the Thumpity Thump Thump of a Well-Cammed Old-School V8 or do you want the smooth consistent pulling power of the Coyote?
Is opening the hood to show off your engine at car shows important to you?
Tough questions but you'll figure it out, I'm 100% sure of that.

Good Luck & Understand That Either Choice Is A Good Choice!

Great questions to ponder on for sure! I have gone back and forth over this for as long as I have wanted to build a roadster. I initially started wanting a coyote before the Gen 3 came out. It may be a bit vain but I do care what it looks like under the hood and the Gen 3 does not add to the plus column for that desire. I have also loved the reliability of the coyote but again everything has to balance out. After doing more research I kinda feel like having an experienced and respected builder out together a nice Dart 347 or 363 with a Holley Terminator X would provide a pretty reliable solution.

[Jammer369]

Have you thought about a low mileage pull out from a wrecked Mustang? Engine/trans with the ECM included might make economic sense.

I personally went for the old school bored and stroked thumper for a Cobra. My last mod motor was a 5.8 in a 14 GT500. Put a blower on that Coyote and really have some fun!


Yep, I have thought quite a bit about using a pull but the low mileage Gen 2 motors are getting pretty hard to come by. If I am not mistaken, it is not a clean install trying to use the control pack out of a pull.

[Jammer369]

Microchips. The coyote has got them all over it not just in the PCM. On top of that Ford has shifted a lot of coyote production towards F-150 due to microchip shortages on 2.7L. Aftermarket is the first place to take the hit on where to get needed capacity.


Now that all makes sense on why the prices have skyrocketed.

[Jammer369]

Yep to the above. I have the BPE 347 and it has the bal flange header. Surprised that the Coyote engines are increasing so much but the other old school engine combos aren't increasing at the same rate. Supply and demand I guess. Both are great options that push the car down the road very quickly :)


Good to know. Did you get your headers from FFR?

[wallace18]

I have installed 3- BPE347's and all of them are great, IMO. Coyote is awesome but you will pay the price. Just my 2-cents worth.

[Garry Bopp]

Just helping you spend some money ... if you are going with a Dart block, why not go up to 363"? BTW, I've heard that Dart blocks are hard to come by/

Garry

[Jammer369]

Just helping you spend some money ... if you are going with a Dart block, why not go up to 363"? BTW, I've heard that Dart blocks are hard to come by/

Garry

Thanks for the help :) Yep, I had a long chat with Jim at Fordstrokers today. He was really nice and we chatted through all of the options and basically said there is no reason to go with a 347 when the 363 is the same price and I agreed. We also chatted about moving up to the Dart 427 which ends up only being about $600 more than the 363.

It's funny, the engine is the one thing I thought I had figured out. Now that I think I have made the decision to move away from the Coyote, the whole world opens up. Just the idea of having a 427 with the extra power and low end torque sounds nice along with the badging to go along with it.

I think for now I am going to leave my options open and mod my order to delete the Coyote install kit, Coyote power steering kit and the headers altogether. My build will take a while since I am going to follow in Jazzman's footsteps and do the flip top mode that King designed. So in all, I will have some time to get the engine figured out and get it ordered about 12 months before I need it. Jim said orders are taking almost a year right now since the Dart blocks are on such a backorder.

[nucjd19]

Good to know. Did you get your headers from FFR?


Yea, they came from FFR with my kit.

[Fman]

Thanks for the help :) Yep, I had a long chat with Jim at Fordstrokers today. He was really nice and we chatted through all of the options and basically said there is no reason to go with a 347 when the 363 is the same price and I agreed. We also chatted about moving up to the Dart 427 which ends up only being about $600 more than the 363.

It's funny, the engine is the one thing I thought I had figured out. Now that I think I have made the decision to move away from the Coyote, the whole world opens up. Just the idea of having a 427 with the extra power and low end torque sounds nice along with the badging to go along with it.

I think for now I am going to leave my options open and mod my order to delete the Coyote install kit, Coyote power steering kit and the headers altogether. My build will take a while since I am going to follow in Jazzman's footsteps and do the flip top mode that King designed. So in all, I will have some time to get the engine figured out and get it ordered about 12 months before I need it. Jim said orders are taking almost a year right now since the Dart blocks are on such a backorder.

Jammer369, my .02 from a weekend hack guy... so take it FWIW. I am definitely not an engine expert. However, I think you are making a good choice going with an independent engine builder over BPE. You will be able to completely customize your engine, trans, clutch, slave cylinder, etc. to exactly what YOU want and are paying for. Nothing personal against BPE but the reality is they sell cookie cutter engines with limited options for the consumer on them. And there QC is what it is, mass producing engines daily... did not do it for me so I went with a local engine builder close to me. Nothing is guaranteed but I wanted to have some type of recourse if something ended up going south and not having to pull my engine and ship it across the country. Mike Forte is also a reputable engine builder that knows what he is doing and also is very familar with these cars, would definitely keep him on your radar. Gordon Levy is also right in your backyard (AZ), he definitely can build something for you and has LOTS of experience with these cars, I purchased quite a few parts from him. Nothing but good things to say about Gordon. For $600 more IMO no brainer to go with a Dart 427. I am running a Dart 427 myself w/PF4 EFI (500+HP), after 2600 miles now it has been a true joy to drive and experience and am completely convinced turning the key is "good for your soul". Hammering your right foot will 100% get your attention and if the engine is built properly is very easy to cruise on a mild Sunday afternoon drive. I was also on the fence between the 347, 427 and Coyote. I ended up going all in with the 427 because I wanted a 427 badge on my car and the sound, idle, experience and power you feel with a 427 will never not put a smile on your face. I have yet to talk with anyone with a 427 that regrets going that direction.

Good luck with your choice, in the end do what works best for you. If you ever have more questions please feel free to PM and you can give me a call to talk about my experience with the 427.

[Jim1855]

Carb'd 427w. After 65k miles in two previous cars, kept the motor, I'm planning on transplanting it to the current build.

The 4.125 bore X 4 stroke makes power easily and offers most any level of civility that one could want.

I started down the path of EFI with encouragement from my dyno tuning friend. Bought a manifold sometime back and recently ordered a throttlebody and distributor, then decided to keep it simple, more traditional and way cheaper. Canceled the newer parts order and will sell the manifold. I'm perfectly happy with my carb'd combo. My tuning friend was sure he could make it "more drivable" whatever that is but wasn't betting on or promising more power.

I think part of the "charm" of a car designed in the '60s is hot & loud sidepipes, the smell of gasoline & oil, and a wee bit of temperamental attitude.

Jim

[J R Jones]

Carb'd 427w. After 65k miles in two previous cars, kept the motor, I'm planning on transplanting it to the current build.

The 4.125 bore X 4 stroke makes power easily and offers most any level of civility that one could want.

I started down the path of EFI with encouragement from my dyno tuning friend. Bought a manifold sometime back and recently ordered a throttlebody and distributor, then decided to keep it simple, more traditional and way cheaper. Canceled the newer parts order and will sell the manifold. I'm perfectly happy with my carb'd combo. My tuning friend was sure he could make it "more drivable" whatever that is but wasn't betting on or promising more power.

I think part of the "charm" of a car designed in the '60s is hot & loud sidepipes, the smell of gasoline & oil, and a wee bit of temperamental attitude.

Jim

And the mechanical sound of thin wall headers and solid lifters idling is music to my ears. For those with exhaust noise managed, a four barrel howl is exciting as well.
jim

[cob427sc]

The rush of intake air, the howl of the headers & sidepipes, solid lifters clattering away! Makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

[tonywy]

I have both, a push rod big block in my Cobra and a Coyote in my new F150 and wouldn't change either.

[CraigS]

One more less expensive option is a 351 based 408. Only 19 ci less than the magic 427. You can do that w/ a stock block so you just have to determine which year 351s came w/ roller lifters. Easily 450hp w/ a mild cam so you have plenty of torque to give a really nice street engine. I had a Quick Fuel carb on mine and after 3 minutes or so it drove just as nicely as my wife's 15 Mustang GT.

[Avalanche325]

I have a stock block 347 with 500hp from Forstrokers. No issues at all. I did a DIY kit. I use mine on the street, autocross and track. That HP level is very very loud, would be my only complaint.

If I were doing it today, I would do a DART 427.

[Jammer369]

I have a stock block 347 with 500hp from Forstrokers. No issues at all. I did a DIY kit. I use mine on the street, autocross and track. That HP level is very very loud, would be my only complaint.

If I were doing it today, I would do a DART 427.

After a lot more research, info in this thread I have figured out I will be going with a Dart 427. There just seems to be no downside and I am really looking forward to it.

[nucjd19]

I have to agree with you and Avalanche the 427 is so classic. I love my 347 but the 427 keeps calling to me.

[boat737]

I have no complaints with the Engine Factory Dart 427. I told them it was a street only car, and they built a motor that starts flawlessly, hot or cold, every time, idles, and has more horse power (520) and torque (530 ft/lb) than should be allowed by law. Honestly, that car with that motor is way more car than I am driver. I'm pretty sure I've not been past half throttle, so I'm not sure those secondaries in the carb (750 cfm) have ever been used. Normally I'm a pretty aggressive driver, but in that car I'm as polite and careful as I can be.

But I would not change a thing. I wanted the "427" fender badge to actually mean what it says. And since I was building an old school car, I wanted an old school motor. The noise, fumes, vibration, and obnoxiousness are all part of what that car should be. It's perfect.

[Jim1855]

Troy,

An excellent choice. And a few suggestions.

Carbs, if you're going this way. A 780 HP style Holley, double pumper, no choke will work well. I've run smaller (670) with great drivability and low-end torque but a bit short on the top end and larger (940) with great top end power but way too much carb in the normal driving range. The 940 didn't really turn on until about 5,500 rpm but wow did it sing at 7,000.

Rear gears, I've run 3.73s but switched to 3.27s. New IRS system has 3.31s available and is my current selection. With the 3.73s 1st gear is so short that under normal street driving you'll be shifting into 2nd almost immediately and 80mph highway will be mid 2k rpm depending on selected OD gear.
The 3.27/3.31 gears really smoothed things out for me. 2,200 @ 80 (.6x OD) and a solid push of the throttle in 1st @ 2,500 spun the tires. I've never run 3.55s but would expect even more tire spin. BTW, I ran 11.8/120 with the 3.27s first time on a strip in a heavier car.

There are a variety of carb & gearing analysis tools online. The gearing calculators are generally accurate but usability varies, the carb calculators are a bit more subjective, seemingly a bit on the more conservative driving side rather than emphasizing HP.

Congrats and welcome to the club,

Jim

[Jammer369]

Troy,

An excellent choice. And a few suggestions.

Carbs, if you're going this way. A 780 HP style Holley, double pumper, no choke will work well. I've run smaller (670) with great drivability and low-end torque but a bit short on the top end and larger (940) with great top end power but way too much carb in the normal driving range. The 940 didn't really turn on until about 5,500 rpm but wow did it sing at 7,000.

Rear gears, I've run 3.73s but switched to 3.27s. New IRS system has 3.31s available and is my current selection. With the 3.73s 1st gear is so short that under normal street driving you'll be shifting into 2nd almost immediately and 80mph highway will be mid 2k rpm depending on selected OD gear.
The 3.27/3.31 gears really smoothed things out for me. 2,200 @ 80 (.6x OD) and a solid push of the throttle in 1st @ 2,500 spun the tires. I've never run 3.55s but would expect even more tire spin. BTW, I ran 11.8/120 with the 3.27s first time on a strip in a heavier car.

There are a variety of carb & gearing analysis tools online. The gearing calculators are generally accurate but usability varies, the carb calculators are a bit more subjective, seemingly a bit on the more conservative driving side rather than emphasizing HP.

Congrats and welcome to the club,

Jim

Thanks for the tips! I think I am set on going EFI. Spent over an hour on the phone with Holley support yesterday going over options. I have always been super confused on deciphering their different terminator EFI products and what does what and the compatibility with the different manifolds. We will see how the budget works out in the next few years but my end goal is to have the Inglese 8 stack. Due to the extra cost of that system, I may initially go with the Terminator X ECU with the Stealth TBI sitting on the Edelbrock 2181. I will try to work it out with Jim Inglese to buy his recommended fuel pump, distributer and ignition system that will be compatible with his stack so that the only thing I need to change later will be to pull out the 2181 and Holley throttle body and drop the stack in. I will also chat with him about the cam since I read there are differences in how the stack is affected by the cam grind. His system is simply stunning to look at.

As for the rear end, I have already bought a dropped rear end out of 2019 GT PP car that is a 3.55 Torsen. I bought that when I was planning on using a Gen 2 coyote with 100 less ponies than the 427 so I am sure a 3.27 or 3.31 would help control tire spin. I can always change it after the fact but I am hoping I will just calibrate my right foot :)

My kit won't be delivered until Aug so this last 6 months of wait is going to be rough. Gives me time to get the shop in order.

Troy

[Avalanche325]

Troy,


Carbs, if you're going this way. A 780 HP style Holley, double pumper, no choke will work well. I've run smaller (670) with great drivability and low-end torque but a bit short on the top end and larger (940) with great top end power but way too much carb in the normal driving range. The 940 didn't really turn on until about 5,500 rpm but wow did it sing at 7,000.

Jim

I see a lot of under-carbed builds. I think those old cfm / CI charts from the 60s still get used today. Strokers with modern heads can make a lot of power, hence they need a big carb. You need to feed the HP, not really the CI.

[GoDadGo]

I see a lot of under-carbed builds. I think those old cfm / CI charts from the 60s still get used today. Strokers with modern heads can make a lot of power, hence they need a big carb. You need to feed the HP, not really the CI.

Amen To Big Carbs!
I'm running an AVS-800 on top of my 383 and it is happy.
It works great even though I'm running a single plane intake.
The Moral To The Story; Don't Choke Your Engines Boys!