New Member - A planner needs help planning

[GirlDad]

Hello all,

I've been a long time lurker on the forums and am about 1 year out from putting in my order (focused on an outbuilding and few other home projects to clear up garage space before my build takes over... and align on timing with the boss lady). I'm a software engineer by trade and really like to eliminate as much ambiguity in my projects beforehand... so I'm kicking this thread off to get some advice and guidance in the planning phase. Adding to my preferences to (over?) plan... I'll add that I'm not a huge gear-head (i.e. I don't wrench on my cars, although I'm not completely without skills/ability), so I'm turning to the highly valuable opinions and experience of this group to get me pointed in the right direction(s) for my build and hopefully avoid any big mistakes that will delay my build once I pull the trigger.

I've read A TON of forum posts, build threads and advice/feedback in other threads. I've read the build manual, watched videos, etc. From all of that, I've put together a fairly detailed build plan (steps, mods, things to consider, gotchas from other builders, pointers to build threads, etc.)... but there are a few open areas that I need to finalize. I'd love to get this community's feedback. I'll save you all the trouble of asking "are you sure" or "what do you want the cobra for" and provide some up front conclusions and decisions that I have made about what I want to build. From there... I'll lay myself on the pyre and see if I can get some help in finalizing the remaining open questions that I have.

What I want from my build
Ultimately, I'm in love with the Cobra look, history and performance. I can't wait to hear my first start, get to go-kart and finally graduate my build. There's no question that I'll build this car. The only questions are what I'm going to put into it and what the final product will end up as. To aid myself (and hopefully your guidance/input), here are few other characteristics I'm looking for:

Drivable at low RPMs/speeds (cruising around town, not crazy loud, etc.)... but angry and fast when I want it to be
A nod to the original but with "sleeper" features/upgrades
Not a "track first" car... but trackable if I wanted to on occasion.
Upgraded handling (i.e. ABS, Traction Control, IRS, etc.)
All new parts (non-donor)
I want it to look good up close and on the road


From this list (and previous research), I've made a few decisions that I think are pretty locked in.

Complete Kit (dual rollbars, vintage GPS gauges, sway bars, Koni Double Adjustable shocks, etc.)
IRS
Wilwood Disc Brakes + ABS and Electronic Parking Brake
Gas-N Touring Pipes with Heat Shields
Lots of mods (Breeze, FFMetal, etc.)
More to be disclosed as we get going on this thread. :)


This isn't going to be a daily driver (I live in Western Washington... which you've probably heard has a tendency to rain and be cold), but rather something I take out for (frequent?) cruises and, as I mentioned, the occasional track day. I don't really think I'll go to shows, at least that isn't my plan, but may swing by for the odd cars & coffee type events.

What I'm looking to get advice on
I have a few specific questions that run from "help me choose my engine setup"... "to powder coating options". I don't want to come out of the gate dropping every single question in a single post... so I'll slow roll this thread with a question at a time. After I reach a conclusion I'll update this initial post with a summary/link to the final decision and move onto the next question. Seem fair?

First up... Engine Choice/Options (post #2) (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42060-New-Member-A-planner-needs-help-planning&p=482132&viewfull=1#post482132) --> Decision made on Engine - Plan of Record (post #48) (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42060-New-Member-A-planner-needs-help-planning&p=483589&viewfull=1#post483589).

Next decision... Transmission Choice/Options (post #50) (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42060-New-Member-A-planner-needs-help-planning&p=483597&viewfull=1#post483597)

Thanks in advance for all of the help, pointers and guidance. I'm looking forward to being a bigger part of this community as time goes on.

-Dan

[GirlDad]

First piece of the puzzle for me is a final decision on the Engine.

I’ve read through multiple build threads and other posts focused solely on “What Engine Should I Get”. I’ve watched the video from FFR on engine options. I’ve watched community member videos (first start, go-kart, graduations, Go-Pro cruises, etc.). All of that information has been a HUGE help in educating me on the options, pros/cons, etc. However, I haven’t been able to make a final decision. With that said, I’m narrowed down to the following 2 options: Gen 3 Coyote or a 427 with EFI (8-stack EFI from Inglese or Borla?).

Why The Coyote?
The Coyote is a pretty much turn-key solution. It’s rock solid, stable and there are a ton of build threads and members here that can help me out with the build. It’ll push ~500hp and have no problems at all on the performance front. It’s super smart and can come directly from a factory that pushes these out all of the time. Ultimately, it’s high horsepower with low risk. There are also a bunch of preferred vendors with packages that have already provided these to members here.

Why Not The Coyote?
The Coyote isn’t the most attractive engine to drop in these cars. Referring to my first post, I’d like to have something that’s a “nod to the original but with sleeper upgrades”. I’ve read (and seen) multiple folks comment about Cobras and the expectation of a 427. I feel like I’m leaving something out if I don’t include the 427. Am I crazy for thinking that?

Why the 427?
I get a really cool badge that says “427”. :) Honestly though, regardless of the badge, it “feels” more like a nod to the originals. When you open the hood, the engine smacks you in the face with “cool factor” that matches the feeling of the rest of the car (in my opinion). With an 8-stack EFI… it’d be over the top awesome. It takes up a bit less room in the engine bay leaving me with a more workable space for mods and serviceability.

Why not the 427?
Reading through multiple build threads and follow up posts from the members here, as well as other research, it doesn’t seem like it’s the “easiest” engine to tune and use for cruising. I’ve heard of issues with having to continually tweak the tune as well as choppiness at lower RPMs. Having never had one of these engines before… I don’t know how much credit I should give this. Also, I’m fully expecting to always be working on the car, so a few tunes/tweaks here and there doesn’t seem too much of an issue. I just don’t want it to be a constant problem. I also haven’t seen a consistent package for 427s as much as I have for the Coyote. That may just be my perception though and I’d be happy to be proven wrong. Note, I have seen packages from Forte, BluePrint, etc. but it seems like there isn’t a consistent “go-to” package. I also am not sure which EFI to go with for a 427. Holley Sniper seems the go-to

Okay… so, what says the community? Can you share any pros/cons not listed above? Any pointers to other posts or articles that would sway me into a final decision? What about EFI tuning options on the 427? What about thoughts on Traction Control with regards to either of these engines (leaving aside the discussion on tone rings, etc.)? Any other considerations to take into account?

::EDIT::
Based on some of the feedback, adding in a few more details on my plans for the build that may impact engine choice (e.g. room in the engine bay, ECU decisions, etc.). The following are some additional aspects to consider and weigh in on.

Stacks EFI (preferred, not a deal breaker)
Traction Control (and ABS)
TKX Transmission (preferred, possibly t56... but that's a separate question for later)
Power Steering
Power Brakes (not convinced I need this with Wilwoods, but leaving here as a possibility until we have that discussion later on)
Hydraulic Clutch
Heater
FF Metal Firewall Forward Kit

[zee]

You really nailed the comparison between the two. Beyond that it's pretty subjective. You can have the 427 with Holley Sniper EFI or something, that'll automate the tuning step and you won't have to worry about that part.

Personally, I wouldn't write off a 302 based engine. You can do 347 if you want the top end. It's a very light car and doesn't need a lot of power. Even with 347, you'll be tire limited than power limited.

EDIT: Despite all the strengths of Coyote, I didn't even consider it for the same reason I didn't consider automatic transmission. But then again, my motorcycle also has an air cooled engine. For me, this car requires a pushrod engine. But you're building for you, so you decide what you want :).

[Al_C]

My 2 cents, not that you really want them...

Consider that the coyote offers (out of the box) better HP than the original 427.
Unless you really want the old school stuff, go EFI. Just my opinion, but EFI is better from a performance and maintenance perspective. But... it's your car.

Again, just my opinion, but skip the heat shields. Yes, they look really cool. If that's what you want, go for it. If you want protection from getting burned, these probably won't do it. At least in my experience. (I was going to go that route, too, but was talked out of it...) I'll be quiet now.

[GoDadGo]

Check out the build threads of Edwardb.
He is a Master Hobbyist Builder and has done both SBF and Coyote builds!

[narly1]

The whole car is a bucket list project for me so it was only fitting that building the engine for it should be on that list too.

I chose to go the 302 route not only for drivability reasons but also for it's reliability and relative simplicity wrt the build perspective.

There's a thread on this forum with lots of detail about the build if you have a few hours LOL.

Earl

[Alan_C]

As a SW engineer, you understand project planning. I suggest you start a project spreadsheet. I am a retired Electronics Engineer and I have a spreadsheet for all the product and articles I have read and would like to find again. Saving the links with a description allows you to easily find the product and associated website quickly.
My current project, not a factory five, has a lot of unique components that I want to keep track of. I started to do a full parts list with prices, but the budget spiraled far beyond my original estimates quickly. I have a list of the major components, but not the smaller stuff.
My MK4 was built using the 4.6L DOHC predecessor to the Coyote. With 300 RWHP, the car would do 0-60 in just a tick over 4 seconds. Most folks now look at the sweet spot at 400 to 500 HP and that is where the 3rd Gen Coyote shines. Nearly 500 HP out of the crate, no fuss no muss. The modern FI engines run so well they generate more than adequate HP and are efficient. If you want period correct looks or the "427" badging, you can do that too. Nothing looks better than stack injection when you open the hood. If you make a spreadsheet, you can put together estimates for the components and cost of your preferred engine/trans combo.
Wilwood has a rear brake kit for the current Mustang IRS that has the electronic e-brake integrated. Not cheap, but if you have the budget, much cleaner that using the e-Stopp unit as it eliminates brake cables.
I converted the Wilwood rear brake kit I have on my project car to include their electronic parking brake retrofit kit. Not a need, but definitely a want. I believe there is one builder here with the Wilwood electronic parking brake integrated with their rear brakes.
Keep asking questions and sort through the answers. You will get a lot of suggestions, take the best and integrate them into your plan.
Lots of good folks here that will help with ideas and spending your money!

[GirlDad]

You really nailed the comparison between the two. Beyond that it's pretty subjective. You can have the 427 with Holley Sniper EFI or something, that'll automate the tuning step and you won't have to worry about that part.

Personally, I wouldn't write off a 302 based engine. You can do 347 if you want the top end. It's a very light car and doesn't need a lot of power. Even with 347, you'll be tire limited than power limited.

EDIT: Despite all the strengths of Coyote, I didn't even consider it for the same reason I didn't consider automatic transmission. But then again, my motorcycle also has an air cooled engine. For me, this car requires a pushrod engine. But you're building for you, so you decide what you want :).

Thanks Zee. At least I know that I'm not completely nuts in my thinking. I know that the Sniper EFI is a fairly traditional path... but for some reason I haven't been convinced yet that I can hit the sweet spot of driveable at lower RPMs/speeds and open it up. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

[GirlDad]

My 2 cents, not that you really want them...

Consider that the coyote offers (out of the box) better HP than the original 427.
Unless you really want the old school stuff, go EFI. Just my opinion, but EFI is better from a performance and maintenance perspective. But... it's your car.

Again, just my opinion, but skip the heat shields. Yes, they look really cool. If that's what you want, go for it. If you want protection from getting burned, these probably won't do it. At least in my experience. (I was going to go that route, too, but was talked out of it...) I'll be quiet now.

I am 100% looking for everyone's 2 cents. :) Regarding HP... I'm with you on that. Both of these engines are crazy HP to weight ratio for these cars. Either one of these options will be plenty. If I go the 427 route... I'm just concerned about the EFI setup/tuning and how much of a hassle it's going to end up being. I reached out to Dave/Papa (after reading his thread and recent decision to go with an Inglese 8-stack EFI system. I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing what kind of results he gets out of that.

Regarding heat shields... that sounds like another question to confirm with the group once I get this one (and a few others) sorted out.

[GirlDad]

Check out the build threads of Edwardb.
He is a Master Hobbyist Builder and has done both SBF and Coyote builds!

Oh my goodness... I feel like I'm 3rd cousin of Edwardb at this point having read through his build threads so many times. I'm planning on going all stainless fuel/brake lines based off of his builds because (1) they look amazing and (2) he documented the approach so well. I'm sure I'll go through a spool of stainless trying to perfect the look/performance... but with that guide I find it hard to go wrong. Also... I know he's a big fan of the Coyote and I'm half expecting him to pop in here and say "Get the Coyote and don't look back". :)

[GirlDad]

The whole car is a bucket list project for me so it was only fitting that building the engine for it should be on that list too.

I chose to go the 302 route not only for drivability reasons but also for it's reliability and relative simplicity wrt the build perspective.

There's a thread on this forum with lots of detail about the build if you have a few hours LOL.

Earl

Yeah... for a few weeks I looked into this option as well. My thinking was the same as yours. That... and I really want to know every inch of this car. But in the end, I opted out of that because I think it's just a bit too much for me to bite off. Also, if I get a package from somewhere else, I don't think I'll look at the finished product and think "you should have built the engine". If I do... I'll look into another (Coupe?) build.

[GirlDad]

As a SW engineer, you understand project planning. I suggest you start a project spreadsheet. I am a retired Electronics Engineer and I have a spreadsheet for all the product and articles I have read and would like to find again. Saving the links with a description allows you to easily find the product and associated website quickly.
My current project, not a factory five, has a lot of unique components that I want to keep track of. I started to do a full parts list with prices, but the budget spiraled far beyond my original estimates quickly. I have a list of the major components, but not the smaller stuff.
My MK4 was built using the 4.6L DOHC predecessor to the Coyote. With 300 RWHP, the car would do 0-60 in just a tick over 4 seconds. Most folks now look at the sweet spot at 400 to 500 HP and that is where the 3rd Gen Coyote shines. Nearly 500 HP out of the crate, no fuss no muss. The modern FI engines run so well they generate more than adequate HP and are efficient. If you want period correct looks or the "427" badging, you can do that too. Nothing looks better than stack injection when you open the hood. If you make a spreadsheet, you can put together estimates for the components and cost of your preferred engine/trans combo.
Wilwood has a rear brake kit for the current Mustang IRS that has the electronic e-brake integrated. Not cheap, but if you have the budget, much cleaner that using the e-Stopp unit as it eliminates brake cables.
I converted the Wilwood rear brake kit I have on my project car to include their electronic parking brake retrofit kit. Not a need, but definitely a want. I believe there is one builder here with the Wilwood electronic parking brake integrated with their rear brakes.
Keep asking questions and sort through the answers. You will get a lot of suggestions, take the best and integrate them into your plan.
Lots of good folks here that will help with ideas and spending your money!

Yep... check and check. I have a few spreadsheets going + a few docs that act as my personal build manual. After reading through so many build threads, as well as the build manual, I wanted to investigate each step to try and optimize the build. Pros/Cons, links to what some folks did that I really like, things to look out for, etc. Of course the plan goes out the window when the kit shows up and parts are on back order... but that's a problem for another day. For now, I'm trying to hammer out what I think is an ideal plan.

I don't think that HP is my major deciding factor. I'm not one of those guys that always wants more... just to have more. I will admit that there's something about the ~500HP line that makes me think "yeah, that's enough" without any regrets. The one thing holding me back on the Coyote is the 427 badge and nod to the past. Can I get over that? I'm not sure yet.

Regarding the Wilwoods... I think I saw someone's build thread where they got this working: https://www.wilwood.com/brakekits/BrakeKitsProdRear?itemno=140-15978-BK. That's my current thought for the e-brake. I like the idea of not having the e-brake handle in the way for the passenger and will make it a bit cleaner of a look. Not period correct... but not something that I think people would immediately notice or care.

As far as budgets go... yeah, it keeps climbing the more research I do. And I've seen plenty of threads/replies where you all are more than willing to come up with great solutions to spend more money. :) At this point... I think I'm fine with that.

[Fman]

One recommendation, try and go ride in a Cobra with the engine and suspension you are wanting. Most guys with these cars would gladly take you for a drive. This will give you a good idea of what you are signing up for. Try and hit a Cars and Coffee local to you, more than likely you will find a Cobra there. I did this and it really helped me out.

[GoDadGo]

GirlDad,

When I did my build plan it went against the grain of over 99% of everyone else on the forum because of my driveline, yet all I got was great support along with a little ribbing from the members.

We build these cars for ourselves so it's like going to a tailor to get a suit custom-made, but you're the tailor...Engine choice, transmission choice, rear suspension type, gearing, and color are yours and yours alone to make so choose wisely...The SBF and Coyote are extremely well supported by Factory Five, but now they support LS power so even going to the darks side is possible.

If you want to have an engine that most people WON'T recognize then here's a cool setup that I'm sure is NOT on your radar:
https://paceperformance.com/LS3-533-HP-Pace-Performance-Crate-Engine-Carbureted-with-HEI-As-Cast-Valve-Covers-GMP-19370413-CHX.html

With some generic valve covers, most Ford Fans won't know what it is when you open your hood.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-241-120

Good Luck, Happy Planning & Watch Your Pinkies!

Steve
aka: GoDadGo
FF5 MK-4 #8,515
https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/customer-steve-l-graduates-his-mk4-roadster/

[KDubU]

As others have chimes in, your car your way. Everyone has their opinion on what engine to drop in and depending on a) are you planning to build the engine, b) the look and feel you want and c) (not as important) HP you want. I say the last is not as important as you can get 300-600hp if you want it, just depends on what engine and how it’s built and setup. Both a pushrod and Coyote and be essentially maintenance free. For most people, 400hp is around the “magic” mark for these cars but unless you race, you will never use all of that. Now my personal opinion is I would not install a Coyote in a replica like this as my head leans towards “replicating” an older car but that is just my personal preference. The 427 thing never bothered me unless you just have to have one, keep in mind most are a strokes 351 block, not a FE. I had a 351w with a robust cam and loved it. The car shook, thumped and burped at idle, some people don’t like or want that. All personal preference as there is no wrong choice IMHO. Steve’s Chevy engine is a beauty and guarantee performs phenomenal so throw one of those in if you wish. My next build, I am planning a 363 and if all goes according to plan Inglese stacks.

[edwardb]

Oh my goodness... I feel like I'm 3rd cousin of Edwardb at this point having read through his build threads so many times. I'm planning on going all stainless fuel/brake lines based off of his builds because (1) they look amazing and (2) he documented the approach so well. I'm sure I'll go through a spool of stainless trying to perfect the look/performance... but with that guide I find it hard to go wrong. Also... I know he's a big fan of the Coyote and I'm half expecting him to pop in here and say "Get the Coyote and don't look back". :)

OK, you talked me into it. Wasn't going to post here because it's a widely discussed topic without a lot of new to be said. Yes, I've done both and I'm a big Coyote fan. Especially in the area you mentioned a few times. It's happy to run at low RPM's and easy around town driving. In a range the small block engines I had weren't nearly so happy. Makes the Coyote super easy to launch and fun to drive in relaxed mode. But pushed hard it gets angry real fast and won't disappoint. As you said, the builds are well documented. I get it some don't consider the modern engine in keeping with the tradition of these cars. I can only say I've shown my two Coyote builds a lot (Roadster and Coupe) and nearly everyone, old and young alike, think it's cool to have a modern engine in a classic car. I've talked to dealers and they also say this is a highly desirable combination. As for appearance, keep it neat and tidy, and some creative work with the engine cover can look pretty good. I'm assuming you've seen what I did with my Coupe and Gen 3 Coyote. Stacks on the Coyote are super cool. But the cost and complexity go way up. Having said all that, there's no wrong answer. Make it yours.

[CraigS]

An option for you especially if the $ spiral gets too carried away is a mild 351. A stock type rebuild of a 351 shortblock topped w/ a cam/head/intake like this is easily 400 and a little more w/ a very driveable result.
https://www.edelbrock.com/shop/power-packages-main.html?cat=603&edelbrock_series=12262&efm=3605&efs=3697
Since you will be starting w/ the taller 351 block, if you ever want to go larger, all the headers, heads, and intake will transfer over to a 408 or 427. If you start w/ a 302, you are topped out at 347.

[Joel Hauser]

If you are going to be buying or building a custom engine, you may want to consider an aftermarket camshaft. There are cams that are designed to provide more power at lower RPMS. They are sometimes referred to as RV or mild cams. The advantage is that you can keep your RPMs down, but have increased power at those lower RPMs. Among other things, the car will be a little quieter around the neighborhood. Also, I think it may be easier for an unskilled driver, who pays less attention to the tach when shifting (like me) to use. With the light weight of these cars and an RV cam, once you're in 4th or 5th gear, you can cruise very smoothly at 1500-2000 RPMs. But you can still rev it up if you want to. My roadster has an RV/mild cam by comp cams, and it is just so much fun to drive. I'm sure there are lots of disadvantages, but it is something to consider. You might want to discuss it with your engine builder or parts supplier. Here is an article about camshafts: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/the-right-camshaft-choice

[zee]

Thanks Zee. At least I know that I'm not completely nuts in my thinking. I know that the Sniper EFI is a fairly traditional path... but for some reason I haven't been convinced yet that I can hit the sweet spot of driveable at lower RPMs/speeds and open it up. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

Here's one way of thinking about it: do you gravitate towards a Goldwing or a Harley?

Goldwings have an amazing engine. It's smooth as anything. It's civilized and yet extremely powerful. It is very quick. Very easy to manage. Low maintenance.
Harleys / Indians have old-school air-cooled engines. They vibrate. They are louder. They are actually not as quick as the Goldwing. They generate a lot of heat.

Neither is a wrong choice. Goldwing people don't get Harley people and vice versa.

When you open your hood, what do you want to see inside? When you drive it, do you want the smell and the vibration that makes it feel like a classic car or do you want the restomod feel of a super-refined modern engine?

Coyotes are amazing and no pushrod setup is going to beat it. Period. For some builders, that's the goal. But for other builders, that's not really the point. For less money you can have a brand new Mazda Miata with all modern safety and amenities. Getting the latest and greatest is not really the point of these builds.

At the end, try to envision what you want the final product to "feel" like and what will put a smile on your face. A super smooth, very low maintenance, high-tech engine or a noisier, vibrating and smellier old-school fee.

Side topic: even though I don't want a Coyote for myself, I've seen people set it up in a way that makes it look amazing so I wouldn't write it off purely due to the looks.

[egchewy79]

It's totally a personal choice, but for me I wanted the experience of rebuilding a SBF. I acquired a 289 HiPo for free from buddy and rebuilt it. I like the old school look and sound.

[Mark K]

You're getting excellent advice and considerations from folks. Here's something else that comes to mind...

Even though this first pass is on the engine, factor-in your other convenience preferences into the mix. Power steering - hydraulic or electric. Engine choice may have implications on what you can use. Same with power brakes - hydroboost or vacuum. The size of the Coyote may dictate what you use. Traction control - ensure it can be integrated with either engine choice (likely can, with EFI solutions). Don't know if you want heat or air conditioning, but make sure those will fit if you do want them. There may be others I'm forgetting, but you get what I mean. The old project dependencies, as you well know. Speaking of which, will this build be Agile/sprints, or traditional PM/waterfall? ;-)

Congrats on starting the journey - you won't be disappointed!

- m

[JDFinley]

I went thru the same gyrations when ordering my kit. I eventually decided that I needed to own, drive, and live with one before I could make 'better' decisions. Since the kit wait is so long, I bought a really nice completed Mk3.1 (warmed up 5.0l/302, factory EFI, 3-link, no sway bars, 'upgraded' brakes/discs but not Wilwood, power steering, power brakes). I have learned a number of things and I'm sure that will continue for a while. "Mission" is important (IMO) - I'm a middle aged guy interested in street friendly car (no racing, certainly no street racing, & no need to do burn outs for anyone). For starters...

1. A 'warmed up' 302 (heads, cam, tuned EFI, 24lb injectors, etc.) will produce a LOT of power and noise when you request it. I have no doubt that a 427 is streetable and fun - but wow - must be an incredible excess (for the street).

2. With 3-link and no sway bars, this thing is on rails! I was planning IRS and sway bars on my build, now rethinking that. Maybe IRS but don't see the need for bars. Certainly not until I learn how to properly setup and drive the car - and that will probably never happen because I'm just an old guy having fun with a really awesome car.

3. I have drilled/slotted rotors and semi-aggressive brake pads. My car stops right now. They are more than good enough for street use (including some long and windy mountain passes that I driven). I was going to go with the biggest Wilwood brakes I could get on my build - now rethinking that.

4. Power steering? Yes. I appreciate the easy maneuvering (and I have a messed up arm from a cycling accident).

5. I need to do a little something with the brake and clutch pedals. As they are now, I have to wear the narrowest shoe that I own and that is occasionally not narrow enough (I have big feet).

6. I need to learn how to put a positive spin on "it is not an original Cobra" and "no, it's not a 427". Every time I've said those thing, I sound like I'm apologizing. The funny thing (in my head) is that a warmed up 302 is only about 75hp less than an original 427 Cobra (as I understand it, they were 425hp). These are certainly not negatives but from a bragging rights perspective, it would be nice to respond with 'yup, that a 427.'

All that said, this is the land of excess and once familiar with a thing, we tend to want 'more' from it. So, I reserve the right to change my stance at a later time and say that a 600hp 427 is the only acceptable engine!! :cool:

[toadster]

Kudos for digging in and looking across the board - many on this thread already have years of experience and many many miles under their cobra!

Decisions like Mark K mentioned are important! Many decisions I had initially made, were shifted for something else. e.g. the electric power steering setup I wanted doesn't work with a Coyote due to its size
I am still building, and my thread/site shows many of the dos (and don'ts) through the process. I am no master craftsman like some on here, but it's all about learning and creating something that is your own.

Honestly I never thought I'd be so excited to buy new tools - but quality ones make a difference!
Welcome to the best forum ever!
-Todd

[Hoooper]

If you are serious about adding traction control, I would steer away from the coyote unless you have a line on a gen 1 or gen 2. There are fewer platforms available with traction control that have support for the gen 3 coyote direct injection system. Either way you are looking at a slightly more custom build than the typical ones you will see around here as you would need to use engine management that supports traction control. The Ford performance ECU for the coyote doesnt support TC but there are higher end systems $$$ (like Motec) that do support it and work with coyote gen3. Cheaper systems like Holley, Haltech, Link, etc. can easily be set up on a 302/351/427 and support TC.

[GirlDad]

One recommendation, try and go ride in a Cobra with the engine and suspension you are wanting. Most guys with these cars would gladly take you for a drive. This will give you a good idea of what you are signing up for. Try and hit a Cars and Coffee local to you, more than likely you will find a Cobra there. I did this and it really helped me out.

Great callout. I've been holding off on doing this to avoid the "random annoyance" folks might feel. I know there are a few folks in my area with builds/threads on the forum. I'll reach out.

[GirlDad]

GirlDad,

When I did my build plan it went against the grain of over 99% of everyone else on the forum because of my driveline, yet all I got was great support along with a little ribbing from the members.

We build these cars for ourselves so it's like going to a tailor to get a suit custom-made, but you're the tailor...Engine choice, transmission choice, rear suspension type, gearing, and color are yours and yours alone to make so choose wisely...The SBF and Coyote are extremely well supported by Factory Five, but now they support LS power so even going to the darks side is possible.

If you want to have an engine that most people WON'T recognize then here's a cool setup that I'm sure is NOT on your radar:
https://paceperformance.com/LS3-533-HP-Pace-Performance-Crate-Engine-Carbureted-with-HEI-As-Cast-Valve-Covers-GMP-19370413-CHX.html

With some generic valve covers, most Ford Fans won't know what it is when you open your hood.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-241-120

Good Luck, Happy Planning & Watch Your Pinkies!

Steve
aka: GoDadGo
FF5 MK-4 #8,515
https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/customer-steve-l-graduates-his-mk4-roadster/

That LS3 is a great engine. While the pull from the dark side is strong (and would make for a great build), I think I'm going to keep leaning towards a SBF or Coyote.

[toadster]

If you are serious about adding traction control, I would steer away from the coyote unless you have a line on a gen 1 or gen 2. There are fewer platforms available with traction control that have support for the gen 3 coyote direct injection system. Either way you are looking at a slightly more custom build than the typical ones you will see around here as you would need to use engine management that supports traction control. The Ford performance ECU for the coyote doesnt support TC but there are higher end systems $$$ (like Motec) that do support it and work with coyote gen3. Cheaper systems like Holley, Haltech, Link, etc. can easily be set up on a 302/351/427 and support TC.

you can do the Coyote, but requires a different ECU - that's a whole different rabbit-hole!

[GirlDad]

As others have chimes in, your car your way. Everyone has their opinion on what engine to drop in and depending on a) are you planning to build the engine, b) the look and feel you want and c) (not as important) HP you want. I say the last is not as important as you can get 300-600hp if you want it, just depends on what engine and how it’s built and setup. Both a pushrod and Coyote and be essentially maintenance free. For most people, 400hp is around the “magic” mark for these cars but unless you race, you will never use all of that. Now my personal opinion is I would not install a Coyote in a replica like this as my head leans towards “replicating” an older car but that is just my personal preference. The 427 thing never bothered me unless you just have to have one, keep in mind most are a strokes 351 block, not a FE. I had a 351w with a robust cam and loved it. The car shook, thumped and burped at idle, some people don’t like or want that. All personal preference as there is no wrong choice IMHO. Steve’s Chevy engine is a beauty and guarantee performs phenomenal so throw one of those in if you wish. My next build, I am planning a 363 and if all goes according to plan Inglese stacks.

I agree that anything north of 400HP is going to be more than is necessary. I'm leaning towards the approach of replicating an older car... but I'm also in tech and love gadgets and gizmos. I'm caught between two worlds. Is it too much to ask for the perfect combo? Maybe it is. But... my car, my way. We'll see how this all pans out. It's good to see another vote for the Inglese stacks.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[GirlDad]

OK, you talked me into it. Wasn't going to post here because it's a widely discussed topic without a lot of new to be said. Yes, I've done both and I'm a big Coyote fan. Especially in the area you mentioned a few times. It's happy to run at low RPM's and easy around town driving. In a range the small block engines I had weren't nearly so happy. Makes the Coyote super easy to launch and fun to drive in relaxed mode. But pushed hard it gets angry real fast and won't disappoint. As you said, the builds are well documented. I get it some don't consider the modern engine in keeping with the tradition of these cars. I can only say I've shown my two Coyote builds a lot (Roadster and Coupe) and nearly everyone, old and young alike, think it's cool to have a modern engine in a classic car. I've talked to dealers and they also say this is a highly desirable combination. As for appearance, keep it neat and tidy, and some creative work with the engine cover can look pretty good. I'm assuming you've seen what I did with my Coupe and Gen 3 Coyote. Stacks on the Coyote are super cool. But the cost and complexity go way up. Having said all that, there's no wrong answer. Make it yours.

Hahahaha... I'm happy to see you got pulled in. A Coyote with stacks is something I didn't really consider. I think that might require a bit more research. Any concerns with hood clearance if I were to go that route? To be 100% honest here... I've been building my plan around a Coyote (heavily inspired by your MK4 Anniversary build). About 4 months ago I thought "what about a 427"... and that idea has been stuck in my head ever since.

[Mike.Bray]

I've got a kit coming in May so like you I'm in the planning stages. As an R&D engineer I'm used to researching and planning to the Nth degree. And lots of documents and spreadsheets.

I love new stuff and technology and for this reason I looked hard at the Coyote. The technology is amazing and and it's a well engineered system. For me, maybe I'm just too old school hot rodder but I couldn't get past the size or the looks. Even if you put a ton of effort and $ into it to make it look sleek and cool it just didn't look "hot rod" to me. Not enough "wow" factor when the hood is raised. That's just me, maybe I'm just too old.

I had never built a Ford engine before although this is my second Cobra. My first one I built back in the 90's and it had a SBC in it (sorry). After a lot of research I went with a 351W bored & stroked to 393. On top of this I've installed a Borla stack EFI system.
https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20211031133946mediumrotated.jpg

My reasons for my choice are:

Old school car needs an old school big iron V8.

I wanted the Weber look but with modern EFI for drivability.

I could easily build it myself.

The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars. For a street car I'm interested in torque, what you actually feel when you take off. And it's easier & cheaper to build low end torque with cubic inches.
The human body cannot sense speed, think about going 600 MPH in an airplane. What it can sense is change in velocity and that's what torque gives you.

Building on that theme, stack EFI gives you more bottom torque compared to a single plane intake/throttle body. With a butterfly literally less than a couple of inches from the intake valve when it opens the flow into the cylinder is almost instantaneous so the reaction time is close to zero. Touch the gas pedal and you're going!

I did some engines in the 90's with stack EFI. Back then the ECUs were good but pretty crude. It was almost impossible to get MAP sensors to work correctly so we had to run Alpha-N control which uses RPM & throttle position for the fuel map. And the O2 sensors were narrow band so they cut out around 2000 RPM. Today's ECUs are light years ahead. With wide band O2 sensors they can self tune and have so many other great and easy to use features. So today you can have the looks of Webers for that classic Cobra look but it will start, idle, and run like your family grocery getter. Until you step on the loud pedal!

What I've learned so far about modern stack EFI systems.

Speedmaster. Low cost but not very high quality. Prone to vacuum leaks. Not much after sale support.

Borla. Very high quality and very expensive. After sale support is good but could be better IMO

Ingeles. I've known Jim since the early 80's when I had Webers. He knows his stuff so the best after sale service of anyone. I haven't seen one of his stack EFI systems in person but I'm sure the quality is top notch.

Speedmaster and Borla will sell you a Fast EZ-2.0 self tuning ECU. Don't. If you go with Fast use the XFI Sportsman. It will still self tune but you have so many more tuning capabilities. Ingeles uses the Holley Terminator X which is an excellent ECU.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20220203130203mediumrotated.jpg

It sounds like you're doing it right. Good luck with your build!

[GirlDad]

If you are going to be buying or building a custom engine, you may want to consider an aftermarket camshaft. There are cams that are designed to provide more power at lower RPMS. They are sometimes referred to as RV or mild cams. The advantage is that you can keep your RPMs down, but have increased power at those lower RPMs. Among other things, the car will be a little quieter around the neighborhood. Also, I think it may be easier for an unskilled driver, who pays less attention to the tach when shifting (like me) to use. With the light weight of these cars and an RV cam, once you're in 4th or 5th gear, you can cruise very smoothly at 1500-2000 RPMs. But you can still rev it up if you want to. My roadster has an RV/mild cam by comp cams, and it is just so much fun to drive. I'm sure there are lots of disadvantages, but it is something to consider. You might want to discuss it with your engine builder or parts supplier. Here is an article about camshafts: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/the-right-camshaft-choice

That's a great suggestion Joel. I'll read up on this and see where it takes me.

[GirlDad]

Here's one way of thinking about it: do you gravitate towards a Goldwing or a Harley?

Goldwings have an amazing engine. It's smooth as anything. It's civilized and yet extremely powerful. It is very quick. Very easy to manage. Low maintenance.
Harleys / Indians have old-school air-cooled engines. They vibrate. They are louder. They are actually not as quick as the Goldwing. They generate a lot of heat.

Neither is a wrong choice. Goldwing people don't get Harley people and vice versa.

When you open your hood, what do you want to see inside? When you drive it, do you want the smell and the vibration that makes it feel like a classic car or do you want the restomod feel of a super-refined modern engine?

Coyotes are amazing and no pushrod setup is going to beat it. Period. For some builders, that's the goal. But for other builders, that's not really the point. For less money you can have a brand new Mazda Miata with all modern safety and amenities. Getting the latest and greatest is not really the point of these builds.

At the end, try to envision what you want the final product to "feel" like and what will put a smile on your face. A super smooth, very low maintenance, high-tech engine or a noisier, vibrating and smellier old-school fee.

Side topic: even though I don't want a Coyote for myself, I've seen people set it up in a way that makes it look amazing so I wouldn't write it off purely due to the looks.

I see what you're saying there with the analogy between the Harley and the Goldwing. Preference... probably the Harley, but it's not a clear cut decision. I think both bikes are cool for different reasons. It might be that I'm just being a Goldilocks that wants everything perfect. I think that this discussion thread is starting to help me sort through this though.

[GirlDad]

You're getting excellent advice and considerations from folks. Here's something else that comes to mind...

Even though this first pass is on the engine, factor-in your other convenience preferences into the mix. Power steering - hydraulic or electric. Engine choice may have implications on what you can use. Same with power brakes - hydroboost or vacuum. The size of the Coyote may dictate what you use. Traction control - ensure it can be integrated with either engine choice (likely can, with EFI solutions). Don't know if you want heat or air conditioning, but make sure those will fit if you do want them. There may be others I'm forgetting, but you get what I mean. The old project dependencies, as you well know. Speaking of which, will this build be Agile/sprints, or traditional PM/waterfall? ;-)

Congrats on starting the journey - you won't be disappointed!

- m

Great point... let me add in some of those details that may end up having an impact on the engine decision and see if folks can spot any other major considerations/gotchas.

[GirlDad]

I went thru the same gyrations when ordering my kit. I eventually decided that I needed to own, drive, and live with one before I could make 'better' decisions. Since the kit wait is so long, I bought a really nice completed Mk3.1 (warmed up 5.0l/302, factory EFI, 3-link, no sway bars, 'upgraded' brakes/discs but not Wilwood, power steering, power brakes). I have learned a number of things and I'm sure that will continue for a while. "Mission" is important (IMO) - I'm a middle aged guy interested in street friendly car (no racing, certainly no street racing, & no need to do burn outs for anyone). For starters...

1. A 'warmed up' 302 (heads, cam, tuned EFI, 24lb injectors, etc.) will produce a LOT of power and noise when you request it. I have no doubt that a 427 is streetable and fun - but wow - must be an incredible excess (for the street).

2. With 3-link and no sway bars, this thing is on rails! I was planning IRS and sway bars on my build, now rethinking that. Maybe IRS but don't see the need for bars. Certainly not until I learn how to properly setup and drive the car - and that will probably never happen because I'm just an old guy having fun with a really awesome car.

3. I have drilled/slotted rotors and semi-aggressive brake pads. My car stops right now. They are more than good enough for street use (including some long and windy mountain passes that I driven). I was going to go with the biggest Wilwood brakes I could get on my build - now rethinking that.

4. Power steering? Yes. I appreciate the easy maneuvering (and I have a messed up arm from a cycling accident).

5. I need to do a little something with the brake and clutch pedals. As they are now, I have to wear the narrowest shoe that I own and that is occasionally not narrow enough (I have big feet).

6. I need to learn how to put a positive spin on "it is not an original Cobra" and "no, it's not a 427". Every time I've said those thing, I sound like I'm apologizing. The funny thing (in my head) is that a warmed up 302 is only about 75hp less than an original 427 Cobra (as I understand it, they were 425hp). These are certainly not negatives but from a bragging rights perspective, it would be nice to respond with 'yup, that a 427.'

All that said, this is the land of excess and once familiar with a thing, we tend to want 'more' from it. So, I reserve the right to change my stance at a later time and say that a 600hp 427 is the only acceptable engine!! :cool:

Really good thoughts here JDFinley. I think part of the adventure and fun is the actual build for me. I could go out and buy one of these now... but I don't think it'd be as satisfying as actually building it and then telling everyone I built it. That's just me though. I think I'm lucky in that I found this group/community/forum to help me out with some of the guesswork. I'm no doubt going to finish it and look back wondering if I should have done something different. If that happens a lot... and it's an itch I can't scratch... then I suppose I'll just build another one.

[GirlDad]

Kudos for digging in and looking across the board - many on this thread already have years of experience and many many miles under their cobra!

Decisions like Mark K mentioned are important! Many decisions I had initially made, were shifted for something else. e.g. the electric power steering setup I wanted doesn't work with a Coyote due to its size
I am still building, and my thread/site shows many of the dos (and don'ts) through the process. I am no master craftsman like some on here, but it's all about learning and creating something that is your own.

Honestly I never thought I'd be so excited to buy new tools - but quality ones make a difference!
Welcome to the best forum ever!
-Todd

Oh the tools! I have advocated to my wife for many years the importance of spending money on the right tools for the job. I think that the past 2 decades of marriage, tool purchases and odd projects that come out better because of said tools have slowly gotten my wife to give in to the "I need this tool" discussions. That's part of why she is being supportive of this plan. Needless to say, there's a healthy budget and multiple lines of spreadsheet dedicated to the tools.

As for additional considerations on the engine... I'll post a quick follow up below with additional thoughts/details/plans that may impact the engine decision.

[GirlDad]

I've got a kit coming in May so like you I'm in the planning stages. As an R&D engineer I'm used to researching and planning to the Nth degree. And lots of documents and spreadsheets.

I love new stuff and technology and for this reason I looked hard at the Coyote. The technology is amazing and and it's a well engineered system. For me, maybe I'm just too old school hot rodder but I couldn't get past the size or the looks. Even if you put a ton of effort and $ into it to make it look sleek and cool it just didn't look "hot rod" to me. Not enough "wow" factor when the hood is raised. That's just me, maybe I'm just too old.

I had never built a Ford engine before although this is my second Cobra. My first one I built back in the 90's and it had a SBC in it (sorry). After a lot of research I went with a 351W bored & stroked to 393. On top of this I've installed a Borla stack EFI system.
https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20211031133946mediumrotated.jpg

My reasons for my choice are:

Old school car needs an old school big iron V8.

I wanted the Weber look but with modern EFI for drivability.

I could easily build it myself.

The only substitute for cubic inches is cubic dollars. For a street car I'm interested in torque, what you actually feel when you take off. And it's easier & cheaper to build low end torque with cubic inches.
The human body cannot sense speed, think about going 600 MPH in an airplane. What it can sense is change in velocity and that's what torque gives you.

Building on that theme, stack EFI gives you more bottom torque compared to a single plane intake/throttle body. With a butterfly literally less than a couple of inches from the intake valve when it opens the flow into the cylinder is almost instantaneous so the reaction time is close to zero. Touch the gas pedal and you're going!

I did some engines in the 90's with stack EFI. Back then the ECUs were good but pretty crude. It was almost impossible to get MAP sensors to work correctly so we had to run Alpha-N control which uses RPM & throttle position for the fuel map. And the O2 sensors were narrow band so they cut out around 2000 RPM. Today's ECUs are light years ahead. With wide band O2 sensors they can self tune and have so many other great and easy to use features. So today you can have the looks of Webers for that classic Cobra look but it will start, idle, and run like your family grocery getter. Until you step on the loud pedal!

What I've learned so far about modern stack EFI systems.

Speedmaster. Low cost but not very high quality. Prone to vacuum leaks. Not much after sale support.

Borla. Very high quality and very expensive. After sale support is good but could be better IMO

Ingeles. I've known Jim since the early 80's when I had Webers. He knows his stuff so the best after sale service of anyone. I haven't seen one of his stack EFI systems in person but I'm sure the quality is top notch.

Speedmaster and Borla will sell you a Fast EZ-2.0 self tuning ECU. Don't. If you go with Fast use the XFI Sportsman. It will still self tune but you have so many more tuning capabilities. Ingeles uses the Holley Terminator X which is an excellent ECU.

https://www.imagecoast.com/images/MichaelBray1/20220203130203mediumrotated.jpg

It sounds like you're doing it right. Good luck with your build!

Thanks for the details on your thought process... and background on some of the research that you've already done. This is awesome! I've spent a few hours drudging up a bit of my previous research on ECUs and with the advice here... I'm digging back into some of my thoughts/preferences. I think I'm going to reach out to Jim Inglese and get his thoughts. I'll also update the original Engine post with some more thoughts on additional features I plan for the build that may impact engine choice.

Thanks again for the time and details in your response.

[Fman]

Great callout. I've been holding off on doing this to avoid the "random annoyance" folks might feel. I know there are a few folks in my area with builds/threads on the forum. I'll reach out.

Exact opposite, guys that build and own these want to talk about them. It is there hobby and passion, you won't bother anyone asking questions about there car. If you are ever in the Sacramento area PM me and I would be more than happy to take you out for a drive.

[GirlDad]

you can do the Coyote, but requires a different ECU - that's a whole different rabbit-hole!

I think I'm already deep in that rabbit hole...

[GirlDad]

Exact opposite, guys that build and own these want to talk about them. It is there hobby and passion, you won't bother anyone asking questions about there car. If you are ever in the Sacramento area PM me and I would be more than happy to take you our for a drive.

Thanks Fman. I'll definitely take you up on that. I've read through your build thread multiple times. Really good stuff... and as you're probably figuring out by now, very similar build plans/thoughts.

[GirlDad]

Based on some of the feedback, adding in a few more details on my plans for the build that may impact engine choice (e.g. room in the engine bay, ECU decisions, etc.). The following are some additional aspects to consider and weigh in on. Also updated in my second post on the Engine Decision (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42060-New-Member-A-planner-needs-help-planning&p=482132&viewfull=1#post482132).

Stacks EFI (preferred, not a deal breaker)
Traction Control (and ABS)
TKX Transmission (preferred, possibly t56... but that's a separate question for later)
Power Steering
Power Brakes (not convinced I need this with Wilwoods, but leaving here as a possibility until we have that discussion later on)
Hydraulic Clutch
Heater
FF Metal Firewall Forward Kit

[Mike.Bray]

Based on some of the feedback, adding in a few more details on my plans for the build that may impact engine choice (e.g. room in the engine bay, ECU decisions, etc.). The following are some additional aspects to consider and weigh in on. Also updated in my second post on the Engine Decision (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42060-New-Member-A-planner-needs-help-planning&p=482132&viewfull=1#post482132).

Stacks EFI (preferred, not a deal breaker)
Traction Control (and ABS)
TKX Transmission (preferred, possibly t56... but that's a separate question for later)
Power Steering
Power Brakes (not convinced I need this with Wilwoods, but leaving here as a possibility until we have that discussion later on)
Hydraulic Clutch
Heater
FF Metal Firewall Forward Kit


Great list!

Stack EFI to me is just over the top with looks and responsiveness.

Traction Control? I always thought that was your right foot LOL

I'm going with the TCET18084 TKX transmission.

Power steering. I've been against this, never had a street or hot rod with it before. But I recently changed my mind for two reasons. These cars are tough enough to handle so adjusting the caster angle that PS allows is a help for control and stability. Second, my wife had a serious break to her humerus bone in her right arm last year and plans on driving the car so a little help would be good for her. So I'm a PS convert. And everyone I've talked to that has a FFR Cobra with PS says they would never go back to manual.

Power brakes with Wilwoods? Why?? I had Wilwoods on my last Cobra and seriously it was no issue stopping at all. Lightweight car with massive calipers & rotors, just don't see the need for the added expense and trouble of PB IMO I got my rear from Forte setup with Wilwoods. I like what he does over FFR in that they are 4 piston calipers and have a drum style emergency brake inside the rotor. 6 piston calipers up front and 4 piston calipers in the rear with a 2200 lb car, better buckle up tight.

I love hydraulic clutches, I've used them many times. I'm going with a Tilton hydraulic throwout bearing for simplicity.

I'm going with a heater also. I had one in my deuce roadster and it made a huge difference when driving in the evenings. I'm also planning on installing vents in the footboxes for cool air. https://prdcrrct.com/product-category/air-vents/

I'm also going with the FF Metal Firewall Forward Kit. Good choice with the heater!

[nucjd19]

Just adding my 2 cents. In hindsight I would have gone with the IRS. Could I tell a difference in handling? Not sure but for some reason I decided a 3 link was an easier path. Went with the the 347 stroker. 420HP at the crank with massive torque. It is more than this little rig needs but totally get your idea regarding the 427. I love the classic look in the engine bay and am following Papa's thread as well regarding stacks. I might head down that road after I finish the paint on mine. I went with a carb which is not what most are doing now a days but I have had zero problems with mine thus far. In all honesty, you will decide on pathways you think at this point were correct but once done will question why you did it. It is all good and a part of the process. In hindsight I am really happy and proud over all in my build and that is what that matters. Everything else is secondary. Good luck :)

[KDubU]

This is a classic “guy” move. Can only imagine the wife screaming “you’re scratching the countertop! Get that the hell out of here!!!”.

161762

[Mike.Bray]

This is a classic “guy” move. Can only imagine the wife screaming “you’re scratching the countertop! Get that the hell out of here!!!”.

161762

Hahaha very true! But I'm lucky to have a wife that's a gearhead like me so she was cool with it.....as long as it didn't stay there:)

[zee]

Based on some of the feedback, adding in a few more details on my plans for the build that may impact engine choice (e.g. room in the engine bay, ECU decisions, etc.). The following are some additional aspects to consider and weigh in on. Also updated in my second post on the Engine Decision (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42060-New-Member-A-planner-needs-help-planning&p=482132&viewfull=1#post482132).

Stacks EFI (preferred, not a deal breaker)
Traction Control (and ABS)
TKX Transmission (preferred, possibly t56... but that's a separate question for later)
Power Steering
Power Brakes (not convinced I need this with Wilwoods, but leaving here as a possibility until we have that discussion later on)
Hydraulic Clutch
Heater
FF Metal Firewall Forward Kit


You don't need power brakes. Many people here say even wilwoods is an overkill for street use in North America since it's a very light car and you (may be) won't be driving _that_ fast.

FF Metal firewall forward kit is not something I am considering. Does it reduce the room in the engine bay by 1.5"?

[Avalanche325]

5. I need to do a little something with the brake and clutch pedals. As they are now, I have to wear the narrowest shoe that I own and that is occasionally not narrow enough (I have big feet).

:

You need what are called casual driving shoes. Casual means that they don't have Nomex etc.

I have 14s and wear Pumas. I have one pair for the Cobra and a pair for SIM racing.

https://us.puma.com/us/en/sport/motorsport/shop-all-motorsport?prefv2=Shoes&prefn2=productdivName&prefv1=Men&prefn1=gender&pmpt=discounted&pmid=nosales-category-promotion-US

[GoDadGo]

Things To Consider:

1. Make all of your Access Panels removable, using the same tool if possible.
2. Purchase the F.F. Metal Transmission Tunnel Top and make it removable too.
3. Doing the Drop Trunk option.
4. If you are going to be making serious power, blow off any stereo because you won't hear it anyway.
5. By earplugs in the big commercial-style package to save money.

[GirlDad]

Okay folks... here's where I've landed (up to this point). I looked into 8 stack options, ECU options, Traction Control options and how all of that fit together with what I am looking for. TLDR: the current plan of record will be a custom built 351 stroker 427 + Inglese 8 stack EFI with Holley HP ECU.

Now, a bit of the reasoning behind this.

I followed up with Jim Inglese on his 8 stack EFI approach. On top of looking amazing, they are rumored to perform extremely well. He has years of experience and after watching videos, reading testimonials and digging into other EFI based 427s... I think I'll be able to get the performance that I'm looking for from what he offers. I also briefly looked into the Coyote 8 stack approach... but I think I'm too swayed by the call of the 427. Not for the HP... but for the nostalgia/history, badge and overall look/feel of the engine. I'm following up with a referral from Jim for his engine builder (Fitzgerald Automotive) to iron out some additional details and lock down on the additional specifics of the engine build plan. I'll follow up in this thread with more updates as they come in.

As mentioned, I decided to go with the Holley HP ECU. Jim prefers the Terminator X, but I need/want the Traction Control option... which comes with the HP. It's a bit more $$, but I think I'll be happier with this option/combo and it checks all of the boxes I care about. I'll see what Darryl at Fitzgerald Automotive has to add to this story, but I doubt there will be concerns.

With the plan of record settled for the Engine/ECU... on to a few more decisions to finalize the "Go Button" on my Cobra build plans: Transmission & Clutch.

[egchewy79]

congrats on selecting your powerplant. definitely not a budget build $$:eek:
do you know if Fitzgerald's has any issues sourcing blocks for your build? I hear that other engine builders (BPE, etc) have some problems finding seasoned blocks.

[GirlDad]

With the Engine plan of record in place, next steps in figuring out the "Go Button" is what Transmission & Clutch to get.

Transmission
I've read up on the TKO600 (and high RPM related shifting concerns) as well as the updated TKX (that supposedly addresses some of the 600's drawbacks). My current plan (90% sure) is to go with a TKX w/.68 OD. The other option is the T56 Magnum (which has the 6th gear). Any thoughts on which way to go here? Is the T56 worth the extra $$? I've seen a lot of Coyote + T56 builds... but not much with a 351/427. Any pointers or concerns here? Does anybody have real-world experience with the TKX yet... or is it still too new?

A few other callouts that I'm aware of and taking into consideration:

I'm going with Wilwood E-Brake (so no concern with running the parking brake through the trans tunnel)
I'm going with the IRS rear end (needed for the T56, so that's checked) with 3.55 gears
I'm aware of the driveshaft modifications needed (shortening for T56)
Thinking of 18" wheels (about 25.4" wheel height)
As GoDad mentioned... I'll have the removable transmission tunnel (with the FF Metal tunnel top)


EDIT: Added in gears, tire/wheel height and initial OD thoughts on TKX

Clutch
This one is pretty straightforward... but worth calling out. I'm going with a hydraulic clutch (with external setup, something like what Forte offers). Any other suggestions, pointers or things to consider here? I'll be getting the Wilwood brakes, Triple Reservoir, Wilwood pedal box, etc. Let me know if there's anything amiss or additional considerations.

[GirlDad]

congrats on selecting your powerplant. definitely not a budget build $$:eek:
do you know if Fitzgerald's has any issues sourcing blocks for your build? I hear that other engine builders (BPE, etc) have some problems finding seasoned blocks.

Hahaha... yeah, I'm quickly realizing this is definitely not a budget build. Should be fun at least. For the availability of the block... this is a tough time. I'm not pulling the trigger on the kit/engine purchase until later this year, so I have time to (hopefully) see the shortages and availability issues get a bit better.

[jamminj]

one of the main reasons for the t-56 magnum is power capacity and the 6th gear
but the tkx TCET17765 is going to hold anything you through it up to about 700 hp and still has a nice .68 overdrive
the t56 is heaver also

[GirlDad]

one of the main reasons for the t-56 magnum is power capacity and the 6th gear
but the tkx TCET17765 is going to hold anything you through it up to about 700 hp and still has a nice .68 overdrive
the t56 is heaver also

Totally agree regarding power capacity for the TKX. I should be well within the HP and Torque limits of the TKX. So that removes one of the advantages of the T56 over the TKX. The roadster is already light enough... I don't think an extra 50 lbs is a deal breaker.

For me, when originally thinking through the options, it was the added 6th gear (lower RPMs for cruising on the highway) that made me start thinking about the T56. That and the shifting issues/concerns that the TKO had. I'm hearing that the TKX "shifts like butter"... and looking at the upgrades that Tremec made, I think that makes sense.

I think I'm fairly sold on the TKX... but was wondering what the folks here thought of the added work + cost of putting in the T56... and any real-world feedback on the TKX. Would it be worth it? I'm not so sure.

[jamminj]

the tkx will shift better than the magnum
also 60 mph with 25.4 tall tire and 3.55 gear with a .68 final drive is 1918 rpms at 60 and 2238 at 70
whereas the magnum with .63 final drive is 1777 at 60 and 2073 at 70

[edwardb]

the tkx will shift better than the magnum
also 60 mph with 25.4 tall tire and 3.55 gear with a .68 final drive is 1918 rpms at 60 and 2238 at 70
whereas the magnum with .63 final drive is 1777 at 60 and 2073 at 70

Curious why you say the TKX will shift better than the T56. The TKX basically has the same three rail (versus one in the TKO) setup as the T56, plus the improved syncros. I have a T56 in my Coupe. Its shifted perfectly since day 1. Couldn't ask for anything better. I wouldn't make a decision based how these two shift. They're similar. Also, no point in considering the TKO IMO. It's been discontinued for some time. Might be some still hanging around on warehouse shelves. But if you go five speed, TKX is the way to go. Taking the e-brake out of the tunnel eliminates one of the main issues with the T56 in the Roadster. Only works with IRS as you're planning. Apparently a small change needed to the transmission a-frame. But that should be it. Pretty sure Factory Five can supply the proper driveshaft for the T56 combination.

One other comment -- have you studied and considered an internal hydraulic throw-out bearing as opposed to the external slave setup? I've done both and I can say the internal Tilton HRB in my Coupe is awesome. Noticeably lower effort, smooth, self-adjusting, and cheaper too.

[jamminj]

just so you know have a t56 magnum and it shifts great

[GirlDad]

Curious why you say the TKX will shift better than the T56.

I assume that you meant this question for jamminj. I'm of the same opinion as you on shifting... my comments on shifting were targeted at the TKO.


Also, no point in considering the TKO IMO.

For sure! Not on my radar once the TKX came out.


Pretty sure Factory Five can supply the proper driveshaft for the T56 combination.

Nice! I'll reach out when I get closer to ordering (and if I settle on T56 over the TKX). That would save a trip to the local shop here.


I've done both and I can say the internal Tilton HRB in my Coupe is awesome. Noticeably lower effort, smooth, self-adjusting, and cheaper too.

I saw a few builds move to this setup, but I haven't explored it much further. Mike Bray mentioned this earlier as well. It's great to hear that you like how you have yours setup. I'll add this to the research pile and pro/con. Thanks for the pointer!

[jamminj]

I could be wrong, but this is my feeling
the counter shaft and the input shaft I would assume have about 8 to 10lbs less rotating mass connected to the clutch disk
so all other things being equal the TKX should shift better than the t56-magnum

[BluePrintEngines]

Hello GirlDad,

This is Jose from Blueprint Engines,

As you may know, BluePrint Engines has partnered with Factory Five to develop a line of custom drivetrain packages to help Factory Five owners with a drop-in ready powerplant at an affordable price.
I’d love to discuss either an engine/transmission combo, or even just an engine with you. My office number is 308.236.1050 ext. 117, and you’re welcome to call to discuss any of our offerings.

A few bullet points about BluePrint Engines

Peace of Mind
• Factory Five, Summit Racing, JEGS, Speedway Motors. These are our partners, we’ve earned their trust by providing quality products, great service at an affordable price.
• Dyno Tested. Your engine will be dyno tested prior to shipping, validating both performance and reliability. You will receive the dyno results.
• 30 Month 50,000-mile warranty. Better than anyone else.
• Free Tech Support. Have a question, we want to help you.

Expedite your Build
• Our packages are available as turnkey...transmission, bellhousing preassembled to the engine and delivered to your door.
• Eliminates a LOT of time spent on forums, thumbing through catalogs or standing in line at the parts store; not to mention time and frustration.

Cost Effective
• Our value is in giving you more for your dollar than anyone else, a convenient product, peace of mind and reliable horsepower.
• Builds using crate engines retain a higher value than those with donor engines.

Here’s a video from SEMA 2017 explaining the partnership between Factory Five and BluePrint Engines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fkWpQfnXBc

Links to our websites
www.FactoryFiveEngines.com
www.BluePrintEngines.com

I look forward to your response and answering any questions that you have.

Jose Zarraga
BluePrint Engines
Technical and Customer Support
2915 Marshall Ave
Kearney, NE 68847
1.800.483.4263 Ext. 1017