Roll bar safety study or data?

[zee]

EDIT: The question is strictly for a street cruiser

Not starting yet another roll bar debate. I've read many threads on this and your opinion has been very helpful.

There are two safety POVs for street cars: 1) roll bars without a helmet might be more dangerous due to its location on a Cobra because it can smash into the person's head, or 2) A roll bar will protect the head in case of a rollover and can save someone's life.

I've been googling to find a study or data or something strictly for a street car. Have you guys come across something like that?

[Bob 5.0]

Ask this guy what he thinks about roll bars in a cobra !!!

https://youtu.be/CQkqkOwuqac

[zee]

Ask this guy what he thinks about roll bars in a cobra !!!

https://youtu.be/CQkqkOwuqac

Yikes!
but he was racing at 130mph, my question is strictly for a street cruiser.

No way I have the balls to be that aggressive on a track without roll cage.

[ggunter]

My personal point of view is, for street use, I would rather have that roll bar as the windshield frame is coming straight into your lap if you go over. However, your bare head flying around inside the cockpit and striking the roll bar is also going to be a bad day. Just a small rear end collision with the roll bar you will strike your head with probable really bad day results. I and many others on here have put a pad up between the roll bar with the hopes that maybe in a rear end tap, my noggin will hit the pad and not the bars. Anyway you look at it, any crash in these cars is not good. None of us really want to look at that part of driving a fun car. Its like anything in life you take a chance with, "it won't happen to me". Just try not to wreck and keep the smiles on your face

[Papa]

I haven't seen specific data other than some information that was posted on Tangent's website a couple of years ago regarding their hidden roll bar attachment system. That data (not there anymore) was related to the holding forces of their system compared to the standard through bolt on the rear leg. It went into details about forces the bars see depending on forward vs. reverse direction of the car. To that point, there are endless variables. For a street car, your most likely scenario would be a rear impact by another vehicle. In that scenario, low-back seats and a roll bar could cause serious injury to occupants of the Cobra. I don't have any data to show.

[JohnnyB]

This study doesn't specifically address having a roll bar versus no roll bar but it does show that in a crash there is no added risk for convertibles.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/crash-statistics-show-no-added-risk-for-convertibles
I think the bottom line is that it depends on the crash. A roll bar could save you or kill you.

[john42]

One of the reasons I prefer the challenge car and high back racing seats. Not having doors and stepping over really isn't a big deal.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Let's be serious here. Although in this photo I have on a helmet and high back seats the relative position of the roll bar to driver would be the same with low seats. If your head gets whipped far enough rearward to hit the bar you'll be looking at severe whiplash if not a broken neck.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=161648&d=1643810089

Want to eliminate that possibility? Use high back seats.

Jeff

[NAZ]

I've rolled two cars. It's fast and violent. If I built a roadster I'd put a cage in it and window nets, even on a street car. But when y'all get done discussing the merits of the FFR roadster roll bar, then start thinking about what happens to your hands and arms in a rollover. If you think you can keep them inside the car with nothing but muscle, think again.

I ride motorcycles and have been nearly hit by cars, motorhomes, and large animals. Two years ago an 18-wheeler tried to take me out and I ended up crashing in a ditch along I40 -- that wasted a nearly new Street Glide. Some vehicles are just more dangerous than others. If you're gonna pilot them you have to accept the risk. If it helps you to convince yourself that that little roll bar in that tiny car is going to save you, then rock on brother. Whatever it takes...

[zee]

If you're gonna pilot them you have to accept the risk. If it helps you to convince yourself that that little roll bar in that tiny car is going to save you, then rock on brother. Whatever it takes...
I hear you. I ride a motorcycle as well and during non-winter months, I put more miles on my bike than I do on my car. I get the risk, but I also want to make a more educated decision.

I've been rear ended (minding my own business at a stop when someone probably paying attention to her phone slammed into me). I am trying to picture what happens with these roadsters if that happens.

That's in fact a motivation for being picky where I take my (future) roadsters because some areas are more prone to accidents than others.

[J R Jones]

This is the first track video I have seen on this forum where the driver was wearing flame protective gear. I cringe viewing guys confidently donning a helmet with bare arms and bare legs.
I will add to NAZ's astute comments that a roll bar will not save you in all incidents. I saw a friend decapitated in a (sanctioned) street race in Pontiac MI. On the start he came from mid-field to the lead in an M6A Mclaren. As he lifted at the end of the straight, a CV joint failed and the car slid under the (temporary) Armco. I too have been through nasty race crashes. Consider speed proportional to race car content.
jim

161658

[Jim1855]

Just something that I've always questioned are the supplemental harness mounts on the single rollbar. These often have eye-bolts protruding forward towards the head. I see these as just another hard point to make contact with. The harness bar does put the shoulder harnesses at a better angle to the shoulders but not w/o the hard point problems.

I've run for a brief period w/o a rollbar but prefer a full width taller single bar which can be done for a street car.

Jim

[NAZ]

I hear you. I ride a motorcycle as well and during non-winter months, I put more miles on my bike than I do on my car. I get the risk, but I also want to make a more educated decision.

I've been rear ended (minding my own business at a stop when someone probably paying attention to her phone slammed into me). I am trying to picture what happens with these roadsters if that happens.

That's in fact a motivation for being picky where I take my (future) roadsters because some areas are more prone to accidents than others.

Zee, you're asking the right questions. Unfortunately, you won't like the the truthful answers.

Remember, that car is a replica of race car from long ago when sex was safe and racing was dangerous. The single hoop roll bars of that era along with the absence of modern safety equipment were just not very effective. I grew up around racers and have been playing with race cars and hanging out at race tracks since the 60's. I've seen a lot of rollovers and injuries and deaths. You're building a plastic car with very little in the way of crash and rollover protection. You won't even be able to take the car to an NHRA track and pass tech for a quick run down a prepped track in a straight line for a 1/8-mile cuz your replica of a 60's race car isn't considered safe by NHRA. So, how well will that car fare if you get t-boned in an intersection? Or, run too hot into a mountain curve, slide into the dirt on the edge of the pavement where the tire sidewall bites giving you instant lateral traction and rolling the car?

Now, let's say you want to add all the structural tubing to increase side impact and rollover protection. And you and your passengers wear arm restraints and helmets even for a quick Sunday drive into town for a burger. All the gear all the time, right? The car no longer resembles the 60's race car it was fashioned after and your passengers and others on the road look at you like you have a screw loose. I think that kind of dedication to safety is not something that will catch on in the FFR community. So these cars will typically hit the road (and some will hit the track) with the same level of safety that we had back in a bygone era. Back when cars were dangerous and we didn't even use seat belts, cars never came with them.

Whatever you decide, I'll support you. I used to ride a Harley in SoCal traffic, splitin' lanes on the congested freeways next to soccer moms in minivans. But you won't catch me riding in one of them little roadsters. Way too risky.

[zee]

Whatever you decide, I'll support you. I used to ride a Harley in SoCal traffic, splitin' lanes on the congested freeways next to soccer moms in minivans. But you won't catch me riding in one of them little roadsters. Way too risky.

I rented a Street Glide and rode from SFO to LA via the scenic route. When I got close to LA, it took me just a few minutes in traffic to go from "lane filtering is so stupid, I'd never do it" to "this is the best ever. Ontario should legalize it".

I hear you. I want to make an informed decision to do the best I can given the circumstance. I understand that I am building a very unsafe car and I plan to respect it as such. But that's why I want to make more educated tradeoffs. Like "does adding a passenger rollbar increase the overall safety of the passenger or decrease it" given the probability of rollover vs. rearend crash.

[svassh]

I was watching an interview with Pete Brock the other day who designed the Daytona Coupe for Shelby American. He made the comment that the coupe came about because the Cobra could not go faster than 165mph on the straights at Daytona or Lemans. I thought to myself who in their right mind would drive these things at those speeds, surely not a sane person. Race drivers had much bigger cahones than me back in the day.

I've done a number of HPDE sessions at speeds well over 100mph in my GT350/R cars but would not do that in this car. I will however try my hand at Autocross in my Cobra.

[GoDadGo]

Before I ordered my kit (MK-4) I didn't want a roll bar because I simply love the sleek look of the street version of the original Cobras.
A month or two before placing my order I got a chance to ride in and drive not one but two Factory Five Roadsters.
Both cars scared the crap out of me, yet they had only one bar so with that said, I've got two.
I did lower them so that they are bottomed out on the frame and they are cross-bolted with Grade-8 Bolts.
Will they help my wife and her stupid husband if the car ends up on its lid, I think they will; however, I pray it never happens.
The one thing I'm 100% sure of is that my Factory Five MK-4 Roadster is a lot safer than my Kawasaki Meanstreak 1600 ever was.

[GTBradley]

Man, when I think of all the stupid things I did in open, roll bar-less sports cars back in the day...I did go so far as to find some Toyota lap belts in the junkyard and add them to my first car, a 1963 MGB, but that was because I was tired of sliding around in the seat.

[Papa]

Related thread:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?42009-passenger-comfort-safety&p=482042#post482042

[Cobradavid]

...Anyway you look at it, any crash in these cars is not good. None of us really want to look at that part of driving a fun car. ...

Exactly! I consider the risks of driving the Cobra on par with the risks associated with driving a motorcycle - getting into an accident is going to be bad.



...If your head gets whipped far enough rearward to hit the bar you'll be looking at severe whiplash if not a broken neck.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=161648&d=1643810089

Want to eliminate that possibility? Use high back seats.

Jeff


Also agree with Jeff. I've debated installing a roll bar-mounted headrest (I have lowback seats), but decided I'd probably break my neck before my head would be protected by such a headrest.


One thing I noticed in the roll-over video: if anyone is racing these cars, they should seriously consider using wrist/arm flail restraints.

David

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I was surprised with an open car this guy did have arm restraints on the track.

Am looking to install high back seats to replace FFR standard seats. Am 5'10" 200lbs 36" waist. Car is dual use AutoX but mostly street. Car has FFR dual roll bars. Any suggestions

[J R Jones]

Exactly! I consider the risks of driving the Cobra on par with the risks associated with driving a motorcycle - getting into an accident is going to be bad.

David

CDavid, As you are seated in your replica Cobra do you ever consider: balance, dragging mechanical bits in turns, tucking a front tire, counter steering, riding on the back tires, lifting the rear tires on hard brake, intuitive brake balance, or high siding when the rear tires get traction? Not to mention the road debris and wildlife impacting your body? Then too consider the only thing between you and another vehicle is.... air.
jim

161671

[NAZ]

Yup, I hate getting off on the high side.

[Dewey McBride]

I was surprised with an open car this guy did have arm restraints on the track.

Am looking to install high back seats to replace FFR standard seats. Am 5'10" 200lbs 36" waist. Car is dual use AutoX but mostly street. Car has FFR dual roll bars. Any suggestions

@Bear-AvHistory
I'm built exactly like you (but trying to get down to 190lbs). I have the Kirkey high back seats. They really hold you in place and provide a lot of protection. The downside is you get limited rear visibility because they are so tall.

[nucjd19]

I've rolled two cars. It's fast and violent. If I built a roadster I'd put a cage in it and window nets, even on a street car. But when y'all get done discussing the merits of the FFR roadster roll bar, then start thinking about what happens to your hands and arms in a rollover. If you think you can keep them inside the car with nothing but muscle, think again.

I ride motorcycles and have been nearly hit by cars, motorhomes, and large animals. Two years ago an 18-wheeler tried to take me out and I ended up crashing in a ditch along I40 -- that wasted a nearly new Street Glide. Some vehicles are just more dangerous than others. If you're gonna pilot them you have to accept the risk. If it helps you to convince yourself that that little roll bar in that tiny car is going to save you, then rock on brother. Whatever it takes...

Right on about the appendages during a roll over. When rock crawling my 78 fj40 crawler if she rolls hands go in and hold on as tight as possible not to lose them by being pinched by the 6 point roll cage welded to the frame. With rock crawling the speed is SLLLLLLOOOOWWWW and still you can be whipped around. On a cobra at speed I can't imagine being able to keep my arms beside me with the centrifugal force.

[Derald Rice]

I had my arm restraints sewn into my driving suit.

They are sewn just below the elbow and then adjusted to the lap belts.

Took a while to get used to them, they have just enough slack to shift, steer and wipe my face shield.

[Just puttering]

I have no studies, but one example I know of street cruising -

161684


From the driver about the roll bar -

"It held up fine, although I suffered a pretty good concussion and required stitches. My wife has told me the next one needs dual roll bars (she has a head full of staples)"

[mikeinatlanta]

Personally I wouldn't even do the street without a basic bar and a cage for anytime I put my foot in it. Won't even ride in a car where my unhelmeted head can hit the bar.

Doubt you will find any sort of study though. My biggest street fear? Going through a fence or one of those cable barriers and losing my head.

[egchewy79]

Doubt you will find any sort of study though. My biggest street fear? Going through a fence or one of those cable barriers and losing my head.

I saw the aftermath of this exact situation in someone test driving a Viper. Lost control on an on-ramp, fishtailed, and right into the metal cables. Sheared off the windshield. White sheet over the cockpit by the time I drove by.

[jts359]

I may have missed it , But was it ever determined what failed to cause that roll over ? Ed

[Fman]

I have no studies, but one example I know of street cruising -

161684


From the driver about the roll bar -

"It held up fine, although I suffered a pretty good concussion and required stitches. My wife has told me the next one needs dual roll bars (she has a head full of staples)"

Holy crap, where did that happen? and how? Glad you and your wife survived and are doing well.

[Fman]

EDIT: The question is strictly for a street cruiser

Not starting yet another roll bar debate. I've read many threads on this and your opinion has been very helpful.

There are two safety POVs for street cars: 1) roll bars without a helmet might be more dangerous due to its location on a Cobra because it can smash into the person's head, or 2) A roll bar will protect the head in case of a rollover and can save someone's life.

I've been googling to find a study or data or something strictly for a street car. Have you guys come across something like that?

I went dual roll bars, 5 pt seat belts, head rests and an extra brake light. I figure mind as well have the best chance god forbid if the worse case scenario happened.

I always drive my car like it can kill me, because it can... quickly. Every time I turn the key I give it the utmost respect and realize it has way more HP to weight ratio than I have driving skills. You can definitely get in trouble quickly. These cars are not safe by any means, if you truly want a safe roadster go buy a convertible Porsche or BMW with airbags, traction control, side impact, etc... the Cobra "might" be a step above a motorcycle in the safety category.

[mike223]

the ["street"] Cobra "might" be a step above a motorcycle in the safety category.



That is my long time (long studied) position on the subject.



Drive it with the same care you'd ride a Harley - knowing you're not significantly better off in the ditch with either one.


Very likely "a step below a motorcycle" in the Cobra if that turned out to be upside down in the ditch.


Even with a full width roll bar / 5-point harness / high back seats.



Fence posts / mailboxes / telephone poles / etc. combined with added inertia...

[Hoooper]

I was surprised with an open car this guy did have arm restraints on the track.

Am looking to install high back seats to replace FFR standard seats. Am 5'10" 200lbs 36" waist. Car is dual use AutoX but mostly street. Car has FFR dual roll bars. Any suggestions

I am similar size to you. I put Corbeau FX1 pro seats in mine and they are excellent, comfortable for me to take on a multi-hour drive but also did not feel at all loose during autocross on R888Rs.

[mikeinatlanta]

Simple solution is seats that prevent head contact with the bar.

[Just puttering]

A little more about post #26


An oblique right without any warning. I'm told the CHP call it "Suicide Curve."

No markings/signs coming up to a right angle turn. Would have made it but ran up on a berm on the other side of the road that rolled the car.

[zee]

I'd like to provide an update: in absence of any conclusive information, I've decided to get a passenger roll bar as well. I prefer only one roll bar for the original look *and* I think the passenger roll bar might add an additional risk in case of rear ending, but I do see that it helps in case of a roll over.

So the car will have a dual roll bar*

* - unless I can get an actual data on the effectiveness and risk.

[Tooth]

I don't get my kit until July, but currently have dual roll bars included. Keep flip flopping, especially because I don't like the look of the tall skinny bars they offer. I realize there are others out there.

[Avalanche325]

I was surprised with an open car this guy did have arm restraints on the track.

Am looking to install high back seats to replace FFR standard seats. Am 5'10" 200lbs 36" waist. Car is dual use AutoX but mostly street. Car has FFR dual roll bars. Any suggestions

He also didn't have his passenger belts clipped up. Look at those whipping around. I started wearing restraints on the track after seeing that video a long time ago. I also know someone that crashed his Cobra on the track with out restraints. He did some serious damage to his arm.

See if someone has a car with the seats that you are looking at that you can sit in. I know of a set of high back seats that have been taken out of two different Cobras because they are not comfortable on long rides.

I added headrests to mine form a kit designed for 65/66 Mustangs. They look like they belong enough to the point that no one has ever mentioned them to me. Even when they are thinking mine is a "real" one. If you look at a rollbar pad, make sure it is very close to your head.

[john42]

See if someone has a car with the seats that you are looking at that you can sit in. I know of a set of high back seats that have been taken out of two different Cobras because they are not comfortable on long rides.



I find my Kirkey seats more comfortable then my BMW M5 seats. Especially on long rides. Everybody is different tho and I did spend a lot of time adjusting mine, bending the aluminum and custom pouring my own foam inserts. Good tip on the arm restraints. I'm going to look into those.

[Dave 53]

For the 818S/C...162090
As can be seen, with the FFR OEM roll bar, the broomstick line goes right through my eyeballs! Probably okay to autocross an 818S/C with the FFR OEM roll bar, but I wouldn't track it even if the promoter allowed it. I don't have a similar photo with my new roll bar (and showing off a track photo),but feeling much better on the track now. There's also a roll bar under the hood that the tow eye is attached to. 162097

I inspected the witness paint on all my suspension bolts before my last track day (before every track day) and I was amazed to find a nut that backed off half a turn. I'd say such inspections before a track day are as important as safety gear and even more so now after seeing this 130 mph suspension failure video at Willow Springs.

After reading the above, I'll be looking into arm restraints. Somewhere on this forum, I recall a slow-mo Miata rollover video with flailing arms. And as J R Jones mentioned, a fire suit.

Hoping to be at Willow Springs on the 19th and 20th (doing 130)!

PS....I'm still going to Huntington Beach on April 30.

Update: Fire suit and arm restraints have been ordered. Racequip arm restraints, gloves, suit and shoes all for $277 at Summit. It's the lower end stuff, but better than a pair of jeans and a T shirt.

[NAZ]

For those that think the broomstick test is valid, think about this. When just setting in your harness after ending up on your top, there is slack in your belts no matter how tight you think you got them. Your head is now extended beyond the plane it was in when casually setting in the car during a broomstick test. Add to that inertia during the crash and your head is more extended.

Now, unless you only run super speedways, any rollover is most likely to happen in the grass, dirt, or kitty litter along side the paved track or highway. You start out on asphalt, slide to the outside edge of the corner, dip a wheel in the unpaved portion where the rear tire sidewall digs in and over you go. How deep does the bare single hoop roll-bar dig into the soft ground or kitty litter?

The broomstick test is outdated and not a valid way to measure rollover protection. Without a top to help spread the load, you have a very small support area to carry the weight of a car on soft ground. Even a cage will dig in and that's why my pro turbo desert race car is required to have an .080" thick alum roof attached to the cage and the cage must be at least 6" above your head at the closest point. Roll-bars don't work so well in soft ground. You may start out on asphalt but a rollover will more likely happen on soft ground. It's happened to me twice.

[J R Jones]

NAZ, Yours is the pragmatic approach to using (relying on) a roll bar. It has been suggested that at best these roll bars reflect 60's thinking. At worst they are cosmetic. Maybe they are like carrying a condom in your wallet.
jim

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Maybe they are like carrying a condom in your wallet.
jim

Which is 100% effective if you are not in a situation to need it.

Jeff

[NAZ]

Jim, my first rollover was with a single roll-bar, the width of the cockpit and much higher than you see on these FFR roadsters. My head hit the ground. I got banged up like I was in a MMA cage fight -- fortunately nothing serious. But it did make me realize just how ineffective a single bare roll-bar is.

[rich grsc]

162114

[Hoooper]

This second part of the discussion is exactly why I passed on the FFR challenge frame setup and went with a custom cage that has a front roll bar/windshield instead of the standard windshield. This, and that I felt the windshield would chop my head off in the case of a rollover. The single bar would have to be ridiculously tall to provide equal protection for track speeds

[NAZ]

Hooper, I'm with you brother. The photo Rich posted looks like a good start to build a cage from.

The benefit from being older is experience based knowledge and a disregard for what's in style. I build race cars not show cars, replicas, or tributes. And as an engineer, form follows function.

Old Chinese proverb: Too soon old, too late smart.

[Jim1855]

My Challenge Car with an additional forward halo and forward down bar to the dash. Will be adding the outside bars at the elbows (shown in PVC), wasn't sure where I wanted these.
Hope this works when it goes live. If it does, I'll add a few more.
Jim

162142

[Jim1855]

A few more photos.
I expect that I'll be good for SCCA, NASA and HPDE events. This configuration would attract a lot of attention on the street and certainly eliminates the "charm" of an open roadster. When I checked I had about 16" of opening between the top of the windscreen and the forward halo bar.
Not even close to practical.
Jim

162143 162144 162145

[mike223]

Not even close to practical.



Your pictures tell the tale.


I studied the NHRA rulebook for months before concluding that there was no possible way to comply that would be compatible in a "street" roadster.


Too many required bars / not enough space - in a roadster, they're going to be way too close to your melon (if they're going to do you any good) - making it absolutely unsafe to drive without wearing a helmet.

[Jim1855]

Mike223 & all,

Sitting in the Challenge Car the Kirkey high-back seats and proper harnesses do a good job of restricting head movement. I do plan on padding on the side bars, middle bar and forward halo, this one in particular as I know I'll be banging my head on it getting in & out.
But this configuration isn't going to be easy, I have friends of larger girth that want rides, if I ever finish it, but they'll never fit. I've seen track prepped cars with a complete cage, and I didn't want that.

Back to the previously scheduled programming, sorry if my post diverged from the original questions. On actual "data" I doubt that there's really anything substantial due to the limited number of cars and while any accident is noteworthy there really haven't been that many. The insurance companies notice but I doubt that NHTSA does.

I still like the full width single hoop but if going that route again I'd have a forward bar.

Jim

[Hoooper]

Definitely look at using dual durometer padding on most of those bars. Dual durometer gives you appropriate hardness padding for use with a helmet, but has an additional layer of softer padding thats better for your helmetless head on the street. Downside is this takes a lot of room because its much thicket padding.

162184

[Ryan42]

But you won't catch me riding in one of them little roadsters. Way too risky.
This makes zero sense. Youll ride a motorcycle in SoCal traffic, but not a car without a top. K

I ride motorcycles, and Im not clueless to think they aren't dangerous as is this car in a rollover

[NAZ]

This makes zero sense. Youll ride a motorcycle in SoCal traffic, but not a car without a top. K

I ride motorcycles, and Im not clueless to think they aren't dangerous as is this car in a rollover

Makes no sense or is it nonsense?

I'm just following NHRA's lead. NHRA will let you run a drag bike at 200 MPH with leathers, gloves, boots, and a helmet but won't let you run a FFR roadster at 135 MPH built according to the manual that comes with the kit. Following that logic, a roadster is more dangerous than my Harley. Convince me I'm wrong. :)

[nucjd19]

This has been a fun thread to read. I have rolled my rock crawler a few times always at low speeds obviously with the hill I am on only rolled on the side or upside down ( I can't say shiny side down because there is nothing shiny on my fj40 LOL! ). I have a 6 point roll cage welded to the frame at all points and when crawling I am wearing safety gear including a helmet and have a 5 point harness. Like I said earlier When I have rolled it starts slowly and then the momentum picks up. I have gotten a little whipped around but keep my hands in tight and wait for the motion to stop. The thought of having to rely on the double roll bar on my Roadster truly scares me. but it is what it is. I still love driving my roadster and I just am even more on point when driving it.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=162567&d=1644892887
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=162568&d=1644892887

[mike223]

Makes no sense or is it nonsense?

I'm just following NHRA's lead. NHRA will let you run a drag bike at 200 MPH with leathers, gloves, boots, and a helmet but won't let you run a FFR roadster at 135 MPH built according to the manual that comes with the kit. Following that logic, a roadster is more dangerous than my Harley. Convince me I'm wrong. :)

No, it's actually worse than that.

You can't run faster than 13.49 1/4 mile (8.25 1/8th mile) in a convertible without an NHRA approved rollbar (which is absolutely not happening in a "street" roadster - read the NHRA/IHRA rulebook for details).


Effectively, this means you cannot legally exceed ~ 105mph in the 1/4 (~80mph in the 1/8th).

Effectively, this means you can't use more than ~175 hp in one of these cars (on the dragstrip).


But feel free to hop on a superbike with leathers and a helmet and you're approved and legal for 200mph+ in the 1/4.


So, to answer your first question - that is utter nonsense.

[NAZ]

OK, all kidding aside -- the latest NHRA rule nonsense is making me run stock looking front fenders before they will re-certify my chassis. If I retain the bike fenders that were on the car last time they certified it it will now become an altered coupe and need a funny car cage instead of the current full-body cage that was legal three-years ago. So somehow different front fenders makes the car safer to race?

Also, shout out to Ryan42 -- welcome from Flagstaff. And, I'm not really afraid to ride in a convertible. That's simply comedic hyperbole. I should use credulity subtitles when being humorous.

[mike223]

the latest NHRA rule nonsense




Maybe ask if you can just put leathers on the existing fenders? :cool:

[mikeinatlanta]

As someone who has had the pleasure of crashing with a full cage and multiple times on a motorcycle, I can definitively say that the motorcycle crash is less violent so long as you don't hit anything. When the top of that cage hits hard dirt it is incredibly violent.

Doing something wide open like drag racing or the mile I'd rather go down with full leather on a bike than flip most cages I see. My leather has air bags and heavy armor, my boots have exoskeletons, my gloves have fingers sewn so that they can't be peeled.

I have a bolt in 8 point cage in my roadster. Steel lid. Don't give a crap what any race group puts in their book. Designed and built by me to save my ***.

[Alex_V]

For street car setup, per original question, there is probably no statistical data available. Ask yourself this, what is most likely to happen in the area that you plan to drive, and the type of driving that you plan on doing? Getting rear ended, or a rollover? Then plan your safety measures accordingly. Or just roll the dice, and hope that a car accident will get to you before cancer, covid, or some other b@ll**** gets to you first.

P.S. 23 years of motorcycle racing, street riding, off roading. Commuted in Atlanta traffic, rode in Mexico City, Moscow... etc.

[GoDadGo]

Excellent Points Alex V.

My 1980 Z/28 had a 6-point bar in it and I never flipped it...I had the bar installed because the car had T-Tops and scooting down the quarter-mile faster than 13 seconds was frowned upon because they considered the car to be a convertible at our local Drag Strip...I had that car from 1980-2005 (25 years) before it went swimming in Katrina... In my other super long-term ride, shown below, I drove from 1995-2018 (23 years) before passing it along to a friend, and guess what, it didn't have a roll bar and yet I'm still alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svZX2BMSDEs

I've never rolled a car, nor do I want to but I have been rear-ended several times when a few folks forgot to stop...Heck, I even went left nose to left nose head-on with a Chevy Truck while driving our GMC Family Hauler Safari Van when a fellow crossed the centerline in a curve near my home...Thank God I was the only one in Van because it was a tough hit that totaled both vehicles; however, neither rolled over but stopped really, really, really quick upon impact.

Steve

NOTE:...Trucks With Receiver Hitches Seem To Minimize Rear End Damage When A Dummy In A Grocery Getter Forgets To Stop!

[Jim1855]

I've rolled twice in street cars. First was Friday 10/13 at 3pm in a '70 Duster. Watched the grass pass by the L side window, the windshield then the R side window, finished wheels down. The second was with a female friend driving a '70 something New Yorker and racing another friend on the E-way. That one was more dramatic with end for end and sideways rollovers. In both I was essentially unscathed but shaken, maybe not stirred.

Never came close to rolling my Superformance cars but did have a variety of off-track agricultural excursions to include a 720 at Gingerman and a 360 at Grattan in the toilet bowl but kept it on the track. Another time at Gingerman I passed by the corner worker station on the main straight at about 60. The station is about 18 feet off the pavement I was sideways on the lawn, drug most of the available dirt & grass across the next section of the track. Took weeks to clean out the dirt from places where there shouldn't be dirt. The corner worker asked for a ride the next day, figured I owed him that, but some people even with glaring evidence of insanity still want to get on the bus.

Racetracks are generally much safer than the street. On the street curbs, ditches, transitions from pavement to gravel/dirt all take out many cars & drivers. Then there's the other drivers.

Be careful out there,

Jim

[Dave Tabor]

Any thoughts on the relative safety of the Type 65 Coupe frame/cage design?

I drive mine with the mindset of driving a motorcycle. And arm restraints 'sometimes' at the track- the local drag strip requires me to since I have no side windows- they have a 'windows-up' rule for the weekly casual drags- which start this Wednesday- woohooo!

Dave
Gen III Coupe #17

[NAZ]

Dave, I haven't done any calculations on that chassis but it appears to me that is a very sturdy design. But if you run quicker than 11.50 you'll need an NHRA compliant roll bar (the Type 65 roll cage is not a compliant roll bar) or an NHRA compliant roll cage. Not sure that roll cage will comply with NHRA even if the 1 5/8" DM tubing is .120" wall. The round tube is welded to the square tube main chassis and that would have to be 2x2x.058" minimum by the NHRA rule book. And there are more rules around configuration and dims so not sure you'd get that past an NHRA tech inspection. But if it did pass, I wouldn't be afraid to drive that design 200 MPH or more, it looks plenty strong.

[Dave Tabor]

Dave, I haven't done any calculations on that chassis but it appears to me that is a very sturdy design. But if you run quicker than 11.50 you'll need an NHRA compliant roll bar (the Type 65 roll cage is not a compliant roll bar) or an NHRA compliant roll cage. Not sure that roll cage will comply with NHRA even if the 1 5/8" DM tubing is .120" wall. The round tube is welded to the square tube main chassis and that would have to be 2x2x.058" minimum by the NHRA rule book. And there are more rules around configuration and dims so not sure you'd get that past an NHRA tech inspection. But if it did pass, I wouldn't be afraid to drive that design 200 MPH or more, it looks plenty strong.

Naz,

Thank you for your impressions and details.

I won't 'rest easy' by any means but I'll not dwell on it so much.

I don't drag the car much and it's just a 13-second car but have had it up to 130 mph on the road course in Portland. I may be at the Nevada Open Road Challenge as a rookie this year (limited to 100 mph or so) but there will be a 1/2 mile drag even as well.

https://sscc.us/

What does still bother me is the round metal bar just above the driver and passenger's head above the door- I've got mine padded (SFI stuff) but it's pretty hard still. I thought about wearing a DOT motorcycle helmet/bucket while driving on the street.

Dave

[NAZ]

Sounds like fun Dave. And, that SFI padding is for use with a helmet as it's way to hard for your head. Roll bars that your bare head can contact are a hazard indeed.

Have fun and you might consider a window net on the driver's side before competing with the car. Doors and windows are not a reliable means of keeping limbs inside the car during a violent rollover.

[Hoooper]

What does still bother me is the round metal bar just above the driver and passenger's head above the door- I've got mine padded (SFI stuff) but it's pretty hard still. I thought about wearing a DOT motorcycle helmet/bucket while driving on the street.

Replace that stuff with dual durometer if your head is close and youre driving without a helmet. The outer layer of dual durometer padding is much softer padding and the inner layer is SFI padding. The SFI padding is designed to be "soft" when hit with a helmet but as you noticed is definitely not soft for hitting with your bare head.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=2397

[Dave Tabor]

Replace that stuff with dual durometer if your head is close and youre driving without a helmet. The outer layer of dual durometer padding is much softer padding and the inner layer is SFI padding. The SFI padding is designed to be "soft" when hit with a helmet but as you noticed is definitely not soft for hitting with your bare head.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=2397

Order placed!

Thanks you!

Dave

[SnakeBitten14]

I had concerns about my head hitting the role bar so i bought a high back seat.