Step One and some build questions.

[Wishfull]

Good Morning, I have been following this forum for a while and wanted to introduce myself, share my situation and ask a couple questions.

I have wanted to build a Cobra kit car since I was kid. I even have a cobra tattoo on my right shoulder. It was the first thing I did after AF basic training. My tastes have changed slightly and I am leaning more towards the Daytona Coupe. I live in middle GA and having a roof and AC will hopefully allow us to enjoy the car even in the middle of summer. We have an older Jeep that spends the summers topless and doorless but once we get close to July we have to put the sun shade on or its unbearable sitting still in the sun at a light or in traffic.

I just sold my Cayman over the weekend and will be building a shop so I have a place to start my build. I am probably still about a year of from putting down my deposit on a kit depending on how things work out with the shop build and associated costs of that.

I have been working on figuring our my priorities for the build. Right now they are:

1. “Easy” to drive at least relatively. So I plan to have full injection, power steering, power brakes, hydraulic clutch. My wife has always enjoyed driving my sports cars and I want to make sure that continues with this build. Any other things I should be looking into to make the driving experience more modern/friendly?

2. Comfortable. This is where the AC comes in. Fully tinted windows, sound mat and/or lizard skin products throughout. Will also probably be going with more of an adjustable sports type seat then the racing type seats I see in a lot of the builds. I am fairly short and she is a bit taller then me so would like to be able for us both to fit comfortably when driving. Any suggestions on that would be much appreciated.

Also with the comfort aspect I would like to be able to hold a conversation in the car. I am no stranger to loud cars but am not excited about the thought of having to wear hearing protection to drive the car. My current engine thought process is to build a not so extreme 351w. Maybe even using ford GT40 heads to start with. Going along with that I was thinking that shorty headers with the catalytic converters/j-pipes would quiet things down a little and also help reduce the exhaust smells, and finishing it off with a set of the “quiet” side pipes.

The other priorities come later. I welcome any comments and suggestions you all might have and am excited to be taking the steps in this direction.

[Logan]

1. Welcome, and congrats on deciding to build a Daytona! With the supply chain, you may be better served ordering your kit from FFR sooner than you think. With many months of lead time, it would not be far from your 1-year build commencement expectation (especially with POL items and backorders).

2. Did you happen to sell a gray Cayman to a fellow from the Huntsville Alabama area? A guy from my autocross circle just sold one of his S2000s and bought a Cayman this past weekend. You're not too far, in GA.

3. As for your goals with the car... I recommend a Coyote engine. Modern fuel injection, OEM grade idle and throttle pedal characteristics, driveability, etc. KRC makes a great hydraulic power steering setup that works with the FFR steering rack. Stock Mustang AC compressor fits and works with the FFR AC option. It's really the "easy button" here. Also, hydraulic clutch release is no problem at all.

4. As for power brakes, that's not really a common path on the Gen3 Coupe, for two reasons. First, they're not really needed when the car is 2,500 lbs and the brakes are so large/overkill. Secondly there's not much room to adapt a power brake setup in the chassis. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen ANY Gen3 Coupe use power brakes, so I question even the possibility... I suggest building it with good brake components (Wildwoods, or some of the better Mustang brakes), and use a good set of pads, and I think you'll find the brakes plenty even though they're "manual".

5. Comfort is a buzzword in the FFR community... Because we all seek it, and some attain it to varying degrees, but at the end of the day the Daytona will never be as comfortable as a Cayman. It will be rougher around the edges, louder, and with more vibration....even with a careful build using all the Dynamat possible. That's not really a BAD thing though, it evokes the racecar roots of the car and is part of the appeal. You wouldn't want a 400hp V8 racecar to be as boring as a Toyota Corolla. With careful attention to the insulation, thermal management (heat, AC, heated seats, etc), and the quietest sidepipes you can buy/build.... You should be able to enjoy it without having to communicate to your passenger with hand signals. This is an area where the Coyote engine shines... along with a T56 transmission, and taller final drive ratio to keep the RPMs (and noise) down when cruising.

6. Exhaust is the focus for noise. Chassis noise insulation is still important, no doubt, but that's the easier problem to solve. With sidepipes right next to your head, tips like 2ft from your head, and not much room for big mufflers....it's an acoustic puzzle to solve for sure. There are solutions though. I custom built my own set of sidepipes for racing where there are sound limits, and I think they're probably some of the quieter ones ever made for these cars (wasn't my goal, I was just targeting sub-96dB at 50ft under WOT, which I easily beat even on a cloudy day with high reverb).

Again, welcome! Post a thread with your shop build while you plan for the Coupe build! And if you ever find yourself in northern Alabama, stop by if you'd like to check out my Gen3 Coupe-R project. My build thread is linked in my signature below.

[edwardb]

Logan's responses were spot on based on my experience. I too highly recommend a Coyote. I also question the need and ability to put power brakes in a Coupe. We have the upgrade Wilwood brakes in ours and they're very strong and pedal pressure is reasonable. As for seats, I too wanted a more sports style seat and used Corbeau Sportline Evolution-X 64901F seats in ours. Ours are on sliders and would probably work for you too. There are many other options. Those are just one. Don't waste a lot of time looking for A/C options. Because of the frame design, there isn't a lot of space in the cockpit for the evaporator. The Factory Five option just fits. We have the system in ours. It won't freeze you out but it certainly works. Lots of insulation and tinting, especially the hatch window, would be very helpful. Noise is a big topic with the Coupe. Yes, insulate and seal the daylights out of it and that will help. But exhaust noise remains the big issue. There are several options and you should use your time to study them. The Factory Five pipes are not quiet. Hate to bring bad news, but I'd be very surprised if you come up with any option that prevents using ear protection. Something you need to consider and deal with. My Gen 3 build with a Gen 3 Coupe is documented in the links in my sig line below FWIW. We love it. On the road for two seasons now. Good luck.

[Wishfull]

I sold the Cayman to someone locally. I don’t expect this build to be Cayman like expect for maybe in the handling department. The Cayman was more of a daily (I telework 50%) driver and this will be the fun, nice day, car.

I have been looking through a lot of build threads and I didn’t realize everyone was going with manual brakes. I have probably confused my self looking at all the other factory five builds. I have all ready benefited from posting here. Awesome.

My brother has a 21 Mach One and I got to go with him to the Ford Performance School. The Coyote is a fantastic engine but I am not sure it is the sound or style I want to go with. I have not crossed it off the list of possibilities. Years ago I had a 88 GT Mustang and the roller pushrod SBF was a fantastic running engine. I have also built a few other SBF Windsor motors with good success be it with carburetors and I would like this one to be Fuel Injected. My budget is probably a good bit lower then a lot of other builds and I figure I could build a decent 351w for a good bit less then acquiring a coyote and the performance pack needed to run it. I have explored the F150 Coyote options and that could be an option. Saving money on the motor could possibly allow me to shift those funds to other things. And I kind of want to build the motor and I don’t think I have the expertise to build a Coyote.

I have seen a few builds, either here or on one of those other forums where people have made creative use of the J-pipes or built their own that included catalytic converters and one even looped back around and fit a what looked to be a normal size flow master like muffler in that space before then going on to the side pipes. I should have bookmarked it because I have not been able to find it again.

Once I get the shop area staked out I will look at starting a shop build thread, I hadn’t thought of that and it sounds like fun.

[zee]

The beauty is that you get to build _your_ car and what works for someone else might not work for you.

I know Coyotes are amazing engines. But I wanted an old-school pushrod engine and that's what I ordered. That's the reason why I ride an old-school air-cooled 116ci motorcycle instead of something with a smoother, better performing, modern engine. I wanted the feel, the vibration, the sound, everything. That's what I want in my build too and I am willing to give up the Coyote reliability for it.

Coyotes also taken up a lot of room in the engine bay. Some builders paint their intake or use one that looks better. Taste is subjective. Do think about that as well.

I don't think you can go wrong no matter what you choose.

[Namrups]

Once I get the shop area staked out I will look at starting a shop build thread, I hadn’t thought of that and it sounds like fun.

I ordered my coupe a couple of months ago. I too did not have a place to build it and had to first build a shop. I won't get my coupe until mid June so I started my build thread with the shop progress. My thread "The race is on - Namrups 65 daytona coupe build"
Scott

[Wishfull]

I know Coyotes are amazing engines. But I wanted an old-school pushrod engine and that's what I ordered. That's the reason why I ride an old-school air-cooled 116ci motorcycle instead of something with a smoother, better performing, modern engine. I wanted the feel, the vibration, the sound, everything. That's what I want in my build too and I am willing to give up the Coyote reliability for it.

Coyotes also taken up a lot of room in the engine bay. Some builders paint their intake or use one that looks better. Taste is subjective. Do think about that as well.

I don't think you can go wrong no matter what you choose.[/QUOTE]

Since you mentioned old Air-Cooled Motorcycles. My Dad just passed his 1970 Triumph Daytona to me, it will probably be a bit before I get it back on the road but I am excited about it.

[zee]

Since you mentioned old Air-Cooled Motorcycles. My Dad just passed his 1970 Triumph Daytona to me, it will probably be a bit before I get it back on the road but I am excited about it.

It's a sign!

:)

[Wishfull]

Corbeau Sportline Evolution-X 64901F I just looked up those seats and I am adding them to my ideas list. Thank you

[ggunter]

Go Triumph's!!!! I have a 66 Bonneville!

[ggunter]

My Cobra and my Triumph are carryovers from my childhood. I wish I could take both of them with me.

[edwardb]

...My brother has a 21 Mach One and I got to go with him to the Ford Performance School. The Coyote is a fantastic engine but I am not sure it is the sound or style I want to go with. I have not crossed it off the list of possibilities. Years ago I had a 88 GT Mustang and the roller pushrod SBF was a fantastic running engine. I have also built a few other SBF Windsor motors with good success be it with carburetors and I would like this one to be Fuel Injected. My budget is probably a good bit lower then a lot of other builds and I figure I could build a decent 351w for a good bit less then acquiring a coyote and the performance pack needed to run it. I have explored the F150 Coyote options and that could be an option. Saving money on the motor could possibly allow me to shift those funds to other things. And I kind of want to build the motor and I don’t think I have the expertise to build a Coyote.

I have seen a few builds, either here or on one of those other forums where people have made creative use of the J-pipes or built their own that included catalytic converters and one even looped back around and fit a what looked to be a normal size flow master like muffler in that space before then going on to the side pipes. I should have bookmarked it because I have not been able to find it again...

Not trying to sell the Coyote, but two points and I'll be quiet: (1) On these builds, with the headers and side pipes, they don't sound anything like how a Coyote sounds in a Mustang. If that's what you're thinking. Which I consider a good thing. Several years ago the Autoblog organization approached our local club and asked to produce a video about our cars. The club president asked me to work with them and this was the result: https://youtu.be/gCBLH-mr7ME. 263K views later. Not exactly viral but crazy. The main car featured was our Coyote powered 20th Anniversary Roadster. There are a number of drive-by shots where you can hear the Coyote. Make sure to turn up the volume. The video also has my then under construction Coupe. Having built a couple Roadsters with SBF's that ran great, I personally enjoy the Coyote more. Modern fuel injection that's factory designed and tested versus piecing something together, instant start, good economy (I know that's not a big deal, but just mentioning), 100K maintenance cycle, nearly impossible to wear out in one of these builds, great power and torque, and just really fun to drive. Doesn't mind being drug around with high gears and low rpm, or push it down for revs and they get real angry. But I totally get that some want something more conventional. (2) I highly recommend against messing with J-pipes. Especially in the Coupe. Not even sure there's room. You want long tube headers. They are available with cats, and that's definitely a way to reduce the noise. Custom pipes, flowmasters, etc. are other options people have used to reduce the sound level.

[Wishfull]

Thank you for the link. That is a fantastic video and a beautiful car. I will be keeping an open mind about the coyote going forward. I have a lot more web searching to do. I haven’t seen the long tube headers and cat setup that would seem to be a much better option. I have been reading my way through you build today as I have time. Thanks again.

[Wishfull]

And if you ever find yourself in northern Alabama, stop by if you'd like to check out my Gen3 Coupe-R project.

I will look you up if I get up that way. Thank you.

[cgundermann]

I've got to underscore what Paul cited. I have a Coupe on order and I really wanted to use the Ford Performance 363. I have a lot of experience with the 302 platform in regards to building and tuning, but frankly, it's my comfort zone. My better half and oldest son really wanted a Coyote with this build (I have a built 347 in my MK4 Cobra) and the more I researched, the more I was sold on the Coyote for all the reasons Paul cited. FFR has a really good YouTube video comparing/contrasting all the various powerplant choices and I would encourage you to watch it. The Gen 3 Coyote in the FFR platform is underrated, and I've been told it's actually around 500 horsepower. You'd be hard pressed to build a 500 horsepower motor with a great power curve for the money (just ordered a Gen 3 Coyote from Forte for $8460). I still need the control pak and other parts, but that reliable, low maintenance, high reving & high horsepower package is truly hard to beat. It also gets great gas mileage...

Surprisingly, the FFR side pipe equipped Coupe is very loud. The Coyote sounds mild-mannered in the low rpms, but wails like a banshee in the higher revs. I believe it's the best motor choice in trying to keep the interior noise levels down. But, you better have your beer goggles on, - she's a fast mover and a helluva ride, but not much to look at!

Chris

[Skuzzy]

If you are still going to use a Windsor blocked engine, use a 302 instead of a 351. The taller block height of the 351, pretty much, forces you to use a very low profile intake manifold which kills the efficiency of the engine. A stroked 302 makes more sense.

As far as drivability goes, it is hard to beat a Coyote. They are ugly motors, but damn efficient and easy to drive.

[Wishfull]

Thanks you for all the comments and suggestions.

Too farther dive into the coyote idea what suggestions would you all have for the most economically way to put a Coyote into a Daytona Coupe?

Would getting a F150 Gen 2 engine, seems to be many of them at the salvage yards for around $3k. I know there are some difference with the cams, firing order, and oil pump that would need to be addressed. What would it take to address those issues and keep the total cost down?

Would you still use the Ford Performance control pack with the F150 engine after you make those changes? Are there other/better options?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Power by the hour has lots of Coyote goodies including controls for the F150 engines that do not require cam changes.

https://pbhperformance.com/product-category/coyote-swap-components/control-packs-coyote-swap-components/control-packs-control-packs-coyote-swap-components/f-150-coyote-engine/

Jeff

[J R Jones]

Wishful,
The Coyote engine looks, performs and sounds smooth and modern. Many prefer that.
A high performance (Windsor) has a different shredding sound that is distinctive even on a grid surrounded by Chevys. The solid lifter mechanical sound is idling music as well.
I SCCA raced 289s, 302, and even a Boss 351.
The Boss 351 is a Cleveland engine much heavier with a big block dimensioned crankshaft. The huge ports lack velocity and need high RPM that the bottom end can not sustain.
The 289/302 can make adequate power. Be mindful of the oiling system which was originally insufficient for the crank and rods. Jack Roush developed the solution.

Well after club racing we ran a GT40 with the 427 side oiler. That sound with the "bundle of snakes" exhaust is also distinctive. Once you hear it you will never forget it.
jim

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[Skuzzy]

Just one more word, augmenting what J R Jones said about the Windsor block and oiling. OEM blocks suffer from the potential oiling problem, but aftermarket blocks (Dart, World...), including Ford's Boss blocks, do not suffer from potential oiling issues.

[Bluemont]

I went with the Coyote for my car for many of the reasons others stated above. This is my first Coyote in a car that I'm building. I have a couple of 347s and a 351-based 408 in other cars, so that's what I'm used to and I think they're great.

Here's something to watch out for if you order a Coyote right now. The chip shortage. I ordered my Coyote and control pack back in March 2021. I've gotten everything except the control pack. I called Forte (where I ordered them from) the other day. They seemed to think that Ford is going to send some soon. So it will be almost a year before I get the computer I need for it. But I don't have a lot of confidence that it is actually coming yet, so who knows. Fingers crossed. As it turns out, I was waiting for a bunch of stuff for the car, so it hasn't held me back yet. However, I have the parts for the car now and I'm making progress. So I'm getting nervous. If this thing doesn't show up soon, I'll be looking for other options. Anyone have an idea where I could source a Gen 3 Coyote ECU these days?

[Ltngdrvr]

I went with the Coyote for my car for many of the reasons others stated above. This is my first Coyote in a car that I'm building. I have a couple of 347s and a 351-based 408 in other cars, so that's what I'm used to and I think they're great.

Here's something to watch out for if you order a Coyote right now. The chip shortage. I ordered my Coyote and control pack back in March 2021. I've gotten everything except the control pack. I called Forte (where I ordered them from) the other day. They seemed to think that Ford is going to send some soon. So it will be almost a year before I get the computer I need for it. But I don't have a lot of confidence that it is actually coming yet, so who knows. Fingers crossed. As it turns out, I was waiting for a bunch of stuff for the car, so it hasn't held me back yet. However, I have the parts for the car now and I'm making progress. So I'm getting nervous. If this thing doesn't show up soon, I'll be looking for other options. Anyone have an idea where I could source a Gen 3 Coyote ECU these days?

Which Coyote version are you going with?
If you use a Gen2, Power By The Hour has control packs in stock, but the Gen3 is on backorder, but they may be able to get one sooner than Forte.

[Bluemont]

Which Coyote version are you going with?
If you use a Gen2, Power By The Hour has control packs in stock, but the Gen3 is on backorder, but they may be able to get one sooner than Forte.

I've got the Gen3. I'll check them out.

[Bluemont]

Quick update on the control pack...

Talked to Mike Forte today. They just got a small shipment of control packs. I think I was the first one on his backorder list (3/1/21). So it looks like I have one on the way. But Mike told me that they only got a few and he has a lot more on backorder. So I'd still say beware of the chip shortage.

[Wishfull]

Garage Slab was poured about a week ago the builders will be here middle of this coming week to start putting it up.

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[Namrups]

I started my FF5 journey the last November the same way! It's been exciting seeing the shop come together and has made the wait a little easier! Enjoy your journey!

[Wishfull]

Been working on getting my shop the way I want it. Put in a solar gable fan and coated the floor. Used the Armor Poxy system and went with their Ford Racing Blue color.

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[racingandfishing]

This is an interesting thread and glad it got revived. I have a Coupe on order for January.

I should preface this to say that back in the 80's at 16 years old, I had a 65 Mustang 289 4 speed. Of course I took all of the power everything off that might rob HP and added headers (with the obligatory cherry bombs just to make it legal) and the biggest carb I could afford!

Fast forward a bunch of years and after raising a family, I bought a 2015 Mustang GT 6 speed performance pack. I did some light modding, added the Ford Power Pack, FP exhaust, etc. Super fast and comfortable but I felt it wasn't giving me the visceral experience that I wanted.

So I sold it last fall to move on. After a lot of searching for an old Mustang (65 or 69), I felt like what I really wanted was to build a car and not just a car, but something close to a race car. So here I am!

I have read all of the comments and struggling with going back to a coyote. The coyote is an awesome motor. Could run it to 7500 rpm, close to 500 hp, super dependable and low maintenance. Just concerned that all of those things I loved about my 65 wouldn't be there- gas and oil fumes, the lopedy lopedy lope that only comes from a push rod, etc. and were part of the reasons I sold the 2015.

Though I am not 16 anymore either and if it's not fun to drive, that defeats the purpose.

All that said, the coyote is still a performance bargain and can be less expensive than even some good push rod builds.

Just another thing to consider as I work towards deciding what I want the ultimate outcome of this build to be. I am finding there is a ton more to think about before finalizing the order than I would have thought. Fortunately, I have some time!

[Namrups]

I am 69 years old. The sound of a push rod v8 is music to me. I am building a coupe and did not think twice about going with a 427 crate. I would not have been happy with the coyote even if it is super dependable and low maintenance. But that's me.

[jgray]

As a total newbie this is a very interesting thread. It answered my question about power brakes, but what about power steering? I definitely prefer heavier steering rather than light. I drove my friends 67 Mustang that has a 408 in it putting out 500hp or something like that - it has power brakes and they felt squishy to me and it has power steering which felt light with no feedback. Interested to hear peoples' opinions on power steering or not?

[Jeff Kleiner]

As a total newbie this is a very interesting thread. It answered my question about power brakes, but what about power steering? I definitely prefer heavier steering rather than light. I drove my friends 67 Mustang that has a 408 in it putting out 500hp or something like that - it has power brakes and they felt squishy to me and it has power steering which felt light with no feedback. Interested to hear peoples' opinions on power steering or not?

You'll find hours of reading on the power steering subject here, much of it authored by edwardb and myself as two of the most vocal cheerleaders in favor of it. In a nutshell it isn't all about steering effort per se but rather about the added assist allowing the car to be set up and aligned in ways that make it drive and handle better. With power we can get much more aggressive with positive caster because the assist overcomes the increased steering effort that it creates (much more than 4 degrees with a manual rack truly becomes an "armstrong" two handed effort to deal with at low speeds). The benefits of more positive caster are improved straight line stability, increased return to center and improved camber gain when cornering---all good things! As for the amount of feel and feedback, or a preference for a "heavier steering" as you say this can easily be changed depending on the hydraulic system used either by changes to the pressure relief spring in the pump, the pump orifice or the use of a Heidt's adjustable pressure relief valve. Every car I build gets power steering and I recommend it to anyone who asks.

Cheers,
Jeff

[egchewy79]

As a total newbie this is a very interesting thread. It answered my question about power brakes, but what about power steering? I definitely prefer heavier steering rather than light. I drove my friends 67 Mustang that has a 408 in it putting out 500hp or something like that - it has power brakes and they felt squishy to me and it has power steering which felt light with no feedback. Interested to hear peoples' opinions on power steering or not?

I have manual steering and brakes and do notice a lot of effort turning the wheel, especially if trying to park or do a 3 point turn. Having a relatively small engine (289 HiPo), I didn't want more than necessary parasitic draw from the engine. I am intrigued by electric assisted power steering however. Might be something else to look into. I think you can adjust the amt of assist but will need to modify your steering shaft.

[edwardb]

You'll find hours of reading on the power steering subject here, much of it authored by edwardb and myself as two of the most vocal cheerleaders in favor of it. In a nutshell it isn't all about steering effort per se but rather about the added assist allowing the car to be set up and aligned in ways that make it drive and handle better. With power we can get much more aggressive with positive caster because the assist overcomes the increased steering effort that it creates (much more than 4 degrees with a manual rack truly becomes an "armstrong" two handed effort to deal with at low speeds). The benefits of more positive caster are improved straight line stability, increased return to center and improved camber gain when cornering---all good things! As for the amount of feel and feedback, or a preference for a "heavier steering" as you say this can easily be changed depending on the hydraulic system used either by changes to the pressure relief spring in the pump, the pump orifice or the use of a Heidt's adjustable pressure relief valve. Every car I build gets power steering and I recommend it to anyone who asks.

Cheers,
Jeff

X2 on this from Jeff. He beat me to it. My first build was manual. Only regret was I didn't do power steering. Every one since then has had power steering. I like the lower effort. But I really like how much better they drive with the increased caster.

[racingandfishing]

I will be going with power steering, but has anyone come up with an electric kit or pieced one together?

[EZ$]

Check out 520 Speedworks. They have a complete electric power steering unit.

[jgray]

I am so glad I asked the question. The increased caster makes complete sense - I know a local engine builder and he has a dragster that he takes to the Salt Flats - it has a bunch of caster in it and he was telling me about how it increases stability. So I will go with power steering. Another friend has electric assist on a 64 vette and is putting it on a 68 mustang. I am going to take a closer look at what he is doing.