Banana Bracket Position/Placement - Need Help On This One!

[CaptB]

Some of you may have seen my posts around having ordered and received a 3" Moser race axle but that FFR only sells a banana bracket that is designed to be bolted on a factory axle at 2.5". Forte welds them on when you buy his axle but I didn't have my bracket when I obtained the axle.

This necessitated removing the FFR bolted on brace that was welded to the banana bracket (from FFR).

I spoke with Forte's and they advised that what they do is make sure that the arm that extends from the banana bracket to the pumpkin is bolted in straight and then make the bracket as straight (90 degrees) as possible off the axle. That's the only place I could get any info about placement.

Now I realize that most of you may not be able to help because your sheet metal is already in place but for those of you who can access from the top, here are pictures as best as I can show where my bracket is and what the measurements are from parts of the frame:

Here's the rear to front alignment (heim joints are not bound up):
160380160381

Here's the measurement from the upper deck of the trunk area (behind the seats) to the UCA:
160382

Here's a measurement from the lower frame bar to the LCA:
160383

If this doesn't work out, tomorrow I can go from below looking up on measurements if that will help.

Thanks in advance,
Capt B.

[Papa]

Well, I can't really help with specific measurements at this point, but here is a picture of my axle from Moser with the bracketry all welded before delivery.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84463&d=1524416429

[J R Jones]

The axle assembly was created in collaboration between FFR and Moser. Both have the design geometry and Moser has fixturing to assemble the parts. If they won't weld it for you, ask either one for the engineering lay-out. Fabrication shops work off engineering data.
jim

[NAZ]

Follow JR’s advice, that’s the easiest.

If that turns into a dead end, then you can work up the dimensions yourself and layout the bracket where it should be welded with witness marks. If you need help with how to do that, PM me and I’ll walk you through the process. It’s not rocket science but involves a lot of measuring, establishing a chassis centerline (should have done that before assembling it), and mock-up of the rear axle at ride height. Something every chassis builder knows.


And, you should also know how to properly weld the bracket on the axle without warping the axle tubes or cracking the casting. Even if you are farming out the welding as you need to know if the welder is going to use the best practices that will ensure success. I can help you with that too but all this is more than I want to write in a forum post.

[CraigS]

Some generalities that may help. You have the bracket tight against the center diff casting so that is correct. So moving onto the side view orientation. What matters is that you get the pinion angle correct and that the bracket is welded so w/ that, with angle being correct, you can set the 3rd link length in about the center of it's adjustment range. You don't have the engine/trans in yet so can't measure pinion angle right? I know you would like to knock this off the to-do list but, if it were me, I would move on and come back to this after the engine trans is installed. That will be some extra work of course, but will be worth it in the long run.

[rich grsc]

This seems pretty simple. Adjust the arm to it's mid point of travel. Put it in place, then use an angle finder to set the pinion on the axle to 0*, mark and weld the arm at that location. That will give you plenty of adjustment once everything (transmission) is in place.

[GoDadGo]

Captain,

My Banana Bracket came already welded from Moser, but there was a twist so measure everything at ride height before tacking/welding it in place.
Moser welded Da-Banana just a few degrees off so it would NOT allow me to get my pinion angle in phase without interfering with the Panhard Bar support bracket.
With that said, be careful and do your best to be certain that you've got it right before you tacking/welding the sucker in place.

Good Luck!

Steve

PS:..My solution was to use shortened lower control arms and then adjust the upper shock mounts using different spacers.
.......Since I was messing with the angle of the dangle, I chose to shorten the wheelbase so that my wheels were better centered in the wheel well.
.......Please be advised that I DON'T suggest taking this action, but wanted you to know that there are many ways to skin an Aligator.

[CaptB]

I reached out to Mike Forte on this, advised what his employee told me. He's going to look at my pictures and call me back. I'll update everyone when I get an update.

[JeffP]

I'll soon be in the same situation (getting Moser from Forte but won't have bracket for him to weld). The manual shows the angle being set by the bracket and its attachment to the pumpkin. Couldn't this angle me measured and duplicated prior to cutting off the bracket?

Since I don't have my parts yet I'm only guessing here, but my plan was to try to open up the bracket enough to fit on the larger axle to set the angle and then have it welded.

[CaptB]

Well what you'll have to do is completely cut off the bolt on piece that's welded. I took as little metal off as possible and then used a sander to take enough metal off so it fits around the axle.

I'm sure there's 100 ways to do the sanding, but here's what I used with 80 grit paper:

https://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/grinders-sanders/53-amp-12-in-x-18-14-in-bandfile-belt-sander-62863.html

It takes a lot of time to properly sand it so it fits the axle. I'll update the group here so you can find out what my final solution is. I'm waiting on Mike Forte to call me back.

These things are mounted and welded all the time by Forte's so there's got to be a way to install/weld these by folks like us.

[CraigS]

This seems pretty simple. Adjust the arm to it's mid point of travel. Put it in place, then use an angle finder to set the pinion on the axle to 0*, mark and weld the arm at that location. That will give you plenty of adjustment once everything (transmission) is in place.

Pinion angle to zero compared to what? Pinion angle is measured re; engine/trans output shaft angle, and the engine/trans are not in the car yet.

[rich grsc]

Pinion angle to zero compared to what? Pinion angle is measured re; engine/trans output shaft angle, and the engine/trans are not in the car yet.
Frame level, axle at ride height, the arm adjusted to it's mid point. That should give plenty of adjustment range. Finding hide height would take a bit to work out, but it's do able

[NAZ]

It’s not that difficult to set the pinion angle reasonably close even without the engine and trans in the chassis if you know what angle the engine will be installed at in relation to the chassis. We’re used to setting the pinion angle with the car assembled to at least a roller configuration. We measure the angle of the trans output shaft in our favorite way with the car at ride height and then adjust on the UCA until the pinion angle matches, less some offset that is supposed to account for axle rotation under acceleration. So how do we do this with no engine in the chassis? Well, you could use Trig and dimensions of the engine, trans, mounts, and chassis mounting points. But there is an easier way.


The easy way is by getting some angle info from another builder with a similar set-up as you’re planning. Same engine model, same mounts, same trans, same trans mount spacer. Get a relative angle from the pan rail to the main rails on the chassis (my favorite). Doesn’t matter what the ride height is or if the sample car is standing on its nose, you just need the angle of the pan rails in relation to the chassis main rails. The pan rails on a SBF & SBC are parallel to the crank which is on the same plane as the trans output shaft. You’ll use the main rails as a datum for setting your pinion angle.

But this doesn't account for the lateral position of the banana bracket. And to get that accurate requires more work measuring and establishing centerlines on the chassis and the axle. DON"T JUST GUESS, this affects handling.

[CraigS]

It looks to me like the lateral position is already worked out. Up against the cast center of the axle. His pics show that, and it is also the same way the factory welded in bracket is on Papa's axle. It is also the position where every FFR axle I have ever seen has it.

[NAZ]

Thanks Craig, good to know. The Moser 88 casting is a bit beefier than the Ford 8.8 but as long as the Moser casting is the same width in that area, that's probably a good reference point.

But, it's easier enough to measure and check before welding the bracket. My OCD would require me to check before welding as I get anal about details and precision.

[CaptB]

Nothing for sure or solved yet however, I did find a pretty good tool to use when I'm ready to make sure everything is correct:

https://www.tremec.com/menu/tremec-toolbox-app/

This will be used when everything is in to make sure all angles and the driveline assembly is correct.

[phileas_fogg]

I was never able to get repeatable measurements using the Tremec angle finder app. The rounded edges on the phone & case, plus the size of the phone, just made it impossible. Instead I used a digital angle finder for the measurements & hand-jammed them into the app.


John

[NAZ]

Here's what I use and it seems to work well: https://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR300-Type-Digital-Backlight/dp/B00T6YZ0K6/ref=sr_1_4?crid=IIIACN9LP0ZR&keywords=digital+angle+gauge+magnetic&qid=1642722225&sprefix=digital+angle%2Caps%2C244&sr=8-4

Of course they're likely all made offshore but this particular brand and model has worked well for me. I mostly use it in fabrication but it works well for adjusting pinion angle. These type angle gauges don't read relative to the world, you zero them on one plane then measure the angularity variation on another which is perfect for pinion angle. I usually zero on the pan rail then attach it to a machined surface on the rear end, either parallel to the pinion shaft or ta a right angle. The gauge has a magnetic surface. No math involved, what you read is the pinion angle variation from the trans output shaft. Adjust as necessary.

[J R Jones]

Here's what I use and it seems to work well: https://www.amazon.com/Wixey-WR300-Type-Digital-Backlight/dp/B00T6YZ0K6/ref=sr_1_4?crid=IIIACN9LP0ZR&keywords=digital+angle+gauge+magnetic&qid=1642722225&sprefix=digital+angle%2Caps%2C244&sr=8-4

Of course they're likely all made offshore but this particular brand and model has worked well for me. I mostly use it in fabrication but it works well for adjusting pinion angle. These type angle gauges don't read relative to the world, you zero them on one plane then measure the angularity variation on another which is perfect for pinion angle. I usually zero on the pan rail then attach it to a machined surface on the rear end, either parallel to the pinion shaft or ta a right angle. The gauge has a magnetic surface. No math involved, what you read is the pinion angle variation from the trans output shaft. Adjust as necessary.

NAZ, I had one several years ago and it quit, within six months.
I replaced it with a Huskey 9" Professional digital level, and I see they are 10" these days: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-10-in-Multi-Function-Standard-Digital-Level-THD9403/205999357
(bigger batteries)

If necessary my next digital level will be the one with a laser.
jim

[CraigS]

NAZ, I use this one.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-Digital-Angle-Gauge-and-Level-935DAG/311131769
I wonder how many variations w/ different labels come off the same assembly line in china.

[GoDadGo]

Hey Captain,

Any Banana Bracket Updates?

Steve

[CaptB]

Hey Captain,

Any Banana Bracket Updates?

Steve

So I tracked down the same bracket from Moser that they weld on the FFR axles, they are sending to me. I also had an extensive conversation with Mike Forte and even reached out to Mark at Breeze.

For now I'm waiting on the Moser bracket and will evaluate where to go from there. Thanks for the question.

[BusDriver@35,000']

CaptB, Did you ever receive the Banana bracket from Moser? Thanks.

[CaptB]

CaptB, Did you ever receive the Banana bracket from Moser? Thanks.

I did but it didn't work as it didn't even have the arm that connects to the axle housing. My plan is to get the engine/tranny in, check pinion angle, double check everything is straight and and then weld it in.

[BusDriver@35,000']

Sounds like a good plan. I've been trying to get the same bracket prior to my kit arriving. Thanks for the feedback.

[CaptB]

Sounds like a good plan. I've been trying to get the same bracket prior to my kit arriving. Thanks for the feedback.

I actually kept it, would you like to buy it at a discount? Text me at (901) 317-0972 if you'd like it.

Capt. B

[Blitzboy54]

I actually kept it, would you like to buy it at a discount? Text me at (901) 317-0972 if you'd like it.

Capt. B

That's the spirit

[CaptB]

That's the spirit

Semper Fi Do or Die

[JeffP]

Sounds like a good plan. I've been trying to get the same bracket prior to my kit arriving. Thanks for the feedback.

i have an extra one from FF that comes with the kit i'd sell... I did exactly what you are looking to do. Bought one from someone else and shipped it up to Mike ahead of my delivery. He welded it on and I picked it all up together. So now I have an extra.

[BusDriver@35,000']

Capt. Thanks for the offer but looks like I've got one coming. I appreciate it.

[BusDriver@35,000']

Thanks Jeff. Looks like I have one on the way. I appreciate the offer.

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

I actually kept it, would you like to buy it at a discount? Text me at (901) 317-0972 if you'd like it.

Capt. B

ok I am interested in your bracket,....I think. Couple of Questions

First Still have it???
2nd Is there only 1 type of bracket?? or 1 for 2.5 tube and anther for 3 inch tube??
3rd how much $cratch?

[CaptB]

ok I am interested in your bracket,....I think. Couple of Questions

First Still have it???
2nd Is there only 1 type of bracket?? or 1 for 2.5 tube and anther for 3 inch tube??
3rd how much $cratch?

First YES
2nd Yes there are different size tubes, this is for the 3". Moser racing makes the axles larger.
4th Let me find the receipt, seems like it was just north of $100 from Moser plus shipping but I'm sure I can sell it 10% discount and still pick up shipping, let me go look for it.

[CaptB]

ok I am interested in your bracket,....I think. Couple of Questions

First Still have it???
2nd Is there only 1 type of bracket?? or 1 for 2.5 tube and anther for 3 inch tube??
3rd how much $cratch?

Ok I paid $110.03 plus shipping, let's knock it down to $85 and I'll cover shipping.

Adding a couple of pics.165492165493165494

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

Ok I paid $110.03 plus shipping, let's knock it down to $85 and I'll cover shipping.

Adding a couple of pics.165492165493165494

sounds like a plan, I'll PM you to make payment arrangments.