New/Custom Brembo fixed caliper brakes

[GT_Rich]

I have a Coupe R on order and I'm planning to piece together my own brakes. This car will be used only for autocross and time attack road racing. I'm well aware of the many combinations used by members. Some with more success than others. I'm also aware that Gordon Levy sells a Wilwood setup that uses 6 piston fixed fronts and 4 piston fixed rears. This one gets great reviews but the cost is very real at over $3k for front and rear. You're also stuck with Wilwood prices for consumables. I can't say I'm a fan of this.

I put together the following list to compare some of the typical brakes used by members:

Piston area, popular FRONT calipers:
Ford:
94 Cobra: 1.5" dia x 2 = 3.53 sq in (floating, 13" dia)
04 Cobra: 1.59" dia x 2 = 3.97 sq in (floating, 13" dia)
00 Cobra R: 1.42/1.57" dia = 3.52 sq in (fixed, 13" dia)
14 GT500: 1.57/1.73" dia = 4.29 sq in (fixed, 14" dia)

Wilwood:
Superlite 6 piston = 4.04 sq in (fixed, 13 or 14" dia)

Piston area, popular REAR calipers:
Ford:
94 Cobra: 1.5" dia x 1 = 1.77 sq in (floating, 11.65" dia, parking brake provision)
98 Taurus: 1.68" dia x 1 = 2.22 sq in (floating, 11.65" dia, uses Mustang/Cobra bracket and Cobra mount, parking brake provision)
15 Mustang: 1.73" dia x 1= 2.35 sq in (floating, 13" dia, parking brake provision)

Wilwood:
Superlite 4 piston: 1.25" dia x 2 = 2.45 sq in (fixed, 13" dia, parking brake separate)
Other Superlite diameters available, not sure what most use but this is a common one.

I'm considering using a couple different Brembo fixed calipers that are used by GM and available from Rock Auto for reasonable prices as new AC Delco parts.

FRONT:
Brembo:
13 Cadillac ATS Front: 1.65" dia x 2 = 4.28 sq in (fixed, 13" dia, will require some custom machining or a $175 adapter kit)
AC Delco PNs 1722768 and 1722777, $130 each

REAR:
Brembo:
2020 Camaro V8 Rear: 1.18" dia x 2 = 2.19 sq in (fixed, used by GM on 13 and 14" rotors at 1.1" thick, could use 94-04 Cobra front rotor as it is 13" and 1.1" thick, will need to laser cut a bracket)
AC Delco PNs 1722715 and 1722716, $170 each

This setup would get me fixed front and rear calipers that use the same 94-04 13" Cobra rotor which can be purchased for $35. Pad options for both calipers are a plenty. If an $80 pad budget is included, my cost would be $585 for the fronts and $490 for the rears.

Designing the necessary rear brackets is no problem and the actual part should be cheap. Does anyone have an opinion on this setup? Has something similar been tried? In theory, performance should be on par with the fixed caliper Wilwood setup and, honestly, Brembo OEM calipers are a higher quality than Wilwood.

Talk me out of it...

Rich

[Gordon Levy]

I really important factor you need to consider is what wheel you plan on running. Some calipers have much more wheel clearance than others. This is a huge factor. If you plan on using a halibrand style wheel most of your list went out the window except for specific custom engineered kits like ones that I offer.

[GT_Rich]

Fair point. I have no interest in or experience with the Halibrand wheels. In the interest of a budget oriented build, all these options should work well with the typical budget wheel from American Muscle or LMR. Here are three different wheel sets I have laying around my shop right now and I think they all offer lots of clearance.

160251

[GoDadGo]

GT,

Gordon Levy is extremely well known within the Factory-5 community.
He is an expert in suspension and braking system upgrades.
Many people look to Mr. Levy when upgrading their cars.
Any advice he gives you can be taken to the bank.

Good Luck!

Steve

[GT_Rich]

GT,

Gordon Levy is extremely well known within the Factory-5 community.
He is an expert in suspension and braking system upgrades.
Many people look to Mr. Levy when upgrading their cars.
Any advice he gives you can be taken to the bank.

Good Luck!

Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks. I've talked to Gordon on numerous occasions and he's been nothing but helpful and I appreciate his input. I'm just trying to challenge the boundaries of the box we're in and maybe find another brake option for the budget minded.

Thanks,
Rich

[Gordon Levy]

Most of the Mustang aftermarket wheels work pretty good. Just be aware of caliper clearance on the wheel spoke. Some of the brembos are huge.

[CaptB]

I really important factor you need to consider is what wheel you plan on running. Some calipers have much more wheel clearance than others. This is a huge factor. If you plan on using a halibrand style wheel most of your list went out the window except for specific custom engineered kits like ones that I offer.

100%. Levy Racing helped me here and made sure that the 15" Halibrands would fit over the brakes.

[JMo]

Fair point. I have no interest in or experience with the Halibrand wheels. In the interest of a budget oriented build, all these options should work well with the typical budget wheel from American Muscle or LMR. Here are three different wheel sets I have laying around my shop right now and I think they all offer lots of clearance.

160251

GT_Rich What's that wheel on the right in your picture? thanks

John

[GT_Rich]

Silver wheel on the right is an American Muscle brand wheel, they call the style "AMR". Comes in many sizes and offsets. This one is 18x10 +45.

[mikeinatlanta]

Just be aware that forging your own path and budget build are not mutually compatible. My advice to talk you out of it is to take advantage of the countless dollars and time that others have spent trying to do better than what's easily available (I did not). Profits for people like Gordon aren't for the parts markup, they are for the time spent sorting out a combo that works.

I have the Cobra R four piston Brembo front and rear. They were only $600 a set back in the day but I think are around $1500 these days. The set does include spare pads and braided brake lines. The front are direct bolt on.

The big thing to consider if budget is a concern is wheels. Two popular custom wheel manufacturers were unable to make wheels to fit my combination as their forged blanks couldn't deal with the required offsets. Halibrand style were out of the question. These brakes pretty much confine you to wheels that fit the Cobra R. Finally got a set of custom Bogart wheels with billet centers at an insanely high price. (Their shop is actually pretty close to Gordon).

In hindsight I wasn't fully prepared for the wheel issue. Wilwood wouldn't be my first choice for pure performance but they are well sorted and clearance isn't such a problem.

[flight_83]

I have Cadillac XTS Brembos on that are the same as the ATS but sit taller so I can run 14”rotors.

[Dave Tabor]

I have Cadillac XTS Brembos on that are the same as the ATS but sit taller so I can run 14”rotors.
Are these a direct bolt-on and/or is there an adapter available?

Thanks,
Dave
Gen III #17

[GT_Rich]

@flight_83 : What are you using for rear brakes and how is overall bias?

[Bob Cowan]

My limited experience with stock rotors is that you will smoke them in no time. They won't last a season. They may be only $35, but you'll be buying them by the gross lot. Pay particular attention to cooling, and they will last a little longer.

Factory rotors are designed for street cars, and they're great for that. If you were building a street car with great and cheap brakes, I would applaud you. These Brembos would be awesome.

But, you're building a dedicated track car. I would seriously consider stepping up to a two piece rotor. Preferably one with slots and no holes. Wilwoods are not cheap, I agree. But you'll easily get 3-4 seasons out of a rotor. Then you can replace the rotor only. In the long run, it ends up being cheaper than a lot of other options. Two piece rotors are also considerably lighter than one piece cast parts. That unsprung weight difference is significant.

Been there, done that.
https://i.imgur.com/XHFZ1a4.jpg

[rhk118]

My limited experience with stock rotors is that you will smoke them in no time. They won't last a season. They may be only $35, but you'll be buying them by the gross lot. Pay particular attention to cooling, and they will last a little longer.

Factory rotors are designed for street cars, and they're great for that. If you were building a street car with great and cheap brakes, I would applaud you. These Brembos would be awesome.

But, you're building a dedicated track car. I would seriously consider stepping up to a two piece rotor. Preferably one with slots and no holes. Wilwoods are not cheap, I agree. But you'll easily get 3-4 seasons out of a rotor. Then you can replace the rotor only. In the long run, it ends up being cheaper than a lot of other options. Two piece rotors are also considerably lighter than one piece cast parts. That unsprung weight difference is significant.

Been there, done that.

Bob, care to elaborate on your setup? How does it work for street? What size rims are you running over that? Thanks!

[Bob Cowan]

Bob, care to elaborate on your setup? How does it work for street? What size rims are you running over that? Thanks!

This is Gordon's Wilwood kit; 6 piston front, and 4 piston rear. On a MII chassis. Dual MC, without power assist. Wheels are pretty standard 17x9's. I can't remember the backspacing, whatever FFR recommended for the MII. On the track I used a set of chrome Mustang wheels and Hoosier R7's. Braking was awesome! I could out-brake just about anything on the track, even a Z06 Corvette on R7's. On the street, they were just as good. Firm, predictable and easy to modulate. Couldn't ask for anything better.

I started out with stock Mustang brakes. Too small, and too heavy. I think they lasted 1 1/2 seasons before I smoked 'em. I was just learning then. Now (after 5 championships) I'd use them up in less than a season.

When I built my track car, I went straight to Wilwood. Rear pads last three seasons, front pads two. I could probably get 2 1/2 seasons on the front, and 4 out of the rear. But, they're a cheap consumable, and I don't wait until the last minute. I did that once, and it didn't turn out well. After 5 seasons I replaced the front rotors. The rear rotors will probably need to be replaced after this season.

https://i.imgur.com/kqVivr3.jpg

[rhk118]

Wow thank you, nice to know easy to modulate on the street and not locking up too easily.

[flight_83]

Are these a direct bolt-on and/or is there an adapter available?

Thanks,
Dave
Gen III #17
They are almost a direct bolt on, the calipers have a pressed in threaded fitting that barely doesn't line up. S&S Engineering LLC makes the fittings that replace the factory ones and are slightly offset allowing them to line up. the kit is $175 and cones with the fittings, hardware, and a thin spacer that centers your rotor. really easy install and solid.

[flight_83]

@flight_83 : What are you using for rear brakes and how is overall bias?
I'm not that far into the build so I don't have that answer yet. I'm going to run the GT350 rear brakes and I have the Wilwood adjustment knob for quick adjustments in the cabin. I'll be keeping a log of suspension and brake settings when I get to the tuning stage later on.

[Fivetodrive]

They are almost a direct bolt on, the calipers have a pressed in threaded fitting that barely doesn't line up. S&S Engineering LLC makes the fittings that replace the factory ones and are slightly offset allowing them to line up. the kit is $175 and cones with the fittings, hardware, and a thin spacer that centers your rotor. really easy install and solid.

I put the Cadillac Brembo brakes on but the weather hasn’t let me completely test them yet. I do say they look nice though!161248

[Ltngdrvr]

Here's an adapter kit to mount the GT500 4-piston Brembo calipers and 14" rotors on the SN95 spindles.
https://www.fullytorquedracing.com/sn95-gt500-brembo-brake-kit.html?fbclid=IwAR05BO5yxTUKNWLj-ZxJsRvihb6aKWsIq1jn0h_WWJFD3F6zpqB1Hp05FGc

[flight_83]

Here's an adapter kit to mount the GT500 4-piston Brembo calipers and 14" rotors on the SN95 spindles.
https://www.fullytorquedracing.com/sn95-gt500-brembo-brake-kit.html?fbclid=IwAR05BO5yxTUKNWLj-ZxJsRvihb6aKWsIq1jn0h_WWJFD3F6zpqB1Hp05FGc

I was originally going to go that route because I remember when those first came out it looked like a great setup. But when I looked into them recently a lot of people had nothing but negative experiences with them with not receiving there items and no answers to any form of communication. Also if you check their BBB rating is an F. I'm not really trying to trash them but do your own search of their reviews and do your due diligence.

[Jacob McCrea]

I used the kit linked above, plus a 1/8" washer, to install 2015 Mustang GT 4-piston front calipers and the 2012 GT500 14" front rotor. The product itself is very good but wheel choice with the older GT500 brakes is slim and with the 2015 GT 4 piston calipers, which are huge, it is virtually nil. It took a long time to get the product, and communication was consistent with what I imagine the negative reviewers have said. The other problem I had is that you have to use extended wheel studs, and the aftermarket hubs FFR supplies have a slightly smaller stud knurl diameter from the commonly-available extended studs, which are sized for the OEM Ford SN95 knurl size. I forget how I solved that, other than by wasting both time and money. Here is my thread; I think brakes start at post 177:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2324-Frame-Mods-to-Type-65-Coupe/page5&highlight=frame+mods+type+coupe

I remember that Forma Cars of Ohio and another coupe builder who is a machinist had adapted the 2015 14" rotors and calipers to SN95/FFR spindles. That would open up wheel choices, but those OEM rotors have a strange cooling duct design and I have read are not optimal for extended performance use, and you may be back to an aftermarket high performance caliper. Hope this helps.

[GT_Rich]

They are almost a direct bolt on, the calipers have a pressed in threaded fitting that barely doesn't line up. S&S Engineering LLC makes the fittings that replace the factory ones and are slightly offset allowing them to line up. the kit is $175 and cones with the fittings, hardware, and a thin spacer that centers your rotor. really easy install and solid.

I appreciate you posting these pics. I was considering machining the caliper and/or spindle to make this all work, but that kit looks very nice. And good to know it works with the FFR spindle. Now I'm leaning towards just buying the adapter kit.

[Dave Tabor]

Time for a new front spindle design from FFR- no need to be tied to a 20-year old SN95 whatever it is.

I like the S&S Engineering solution. My Cobra R Brembos bolt to the spindle with bolts into the aluminum caliper- when, not if, these threads are toast (I have to remove the calipers to change the rotors- and rotors get changed each brake pad change- dirt cheap OEM rotors) I'll go this route.

From Fully Torqued Racing I bought and received their adapter kit for a 14" front caliper setup- non-Brembo. I bought the caliper and rotors (Rock Auto) but never got around to installing the setup. Those 14" iron rotors sure are heavy.

Dave
Gen III #17

[flight_83]

I used the kit linked above, plus a 1/8" washer, to install 2015 Mustang GT 4-piston front calipers and the 2012 GT500 14" front rotor. The product itself is very good but wheel choice with the older GT500 brakes is slim and with the 2015 GT 4 piston calipers, which are huge, it is virtually nil. It took a long time to get the product, and communication was consistent with what I imagine the negative reviewers have said. The other problem I had is that you have to use extended wheel studs, and the aftermarket hubs FFR supplies have a slightly smaller stud knurl diameter from the commonly-available extended studs, which are sized for the OEM Ford SN95 knurl size. I forget how I solved that, other than by wasting both time and money. Here is my thread; I think brakes start at post 177:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2324-Frame-Mods-to-Type-65-Coupe/page5&highlight=frame+mods+type+coupe

I remember that Forma Cars of Ohio and another coupe builder who is a machinist had adapted the 2015 14" rotors and calipers to SN95/FFR spindles. That would open up wheel choices, but those OEM rotors have a strange cooling duct design and I have read are not optimal for extended performance use, and you may be back to an aftermarket high performance caliper. Hope this helps.
You’re going to have issues with off the shelf wheels but all you need to do is order some custom offset wheels form Forgestar or any company offering custom wheels. These are custom cars that we try most of the time to get a wheel designed for a Mustang to fit right and sometimes depending on the setup doesn’t work and you just need to splurge a bit.

[jamminj]

I'm running 6 piston Brembo's (s550 mustang)2015 and newer
2013 gt500 15" full floating rotors from Girodisc
s197 mustang spindles
(Will not fit ffr a-arms or spindles)

161302


the factory ford rotors are very heavy at 34lbs
the Girodisc are a much lighter 22.3lbs

[GT_Rich]

I appreciate all the replies in this thread. It made me take a real hard look at potential wheel clearance issues. Luckily, I had a few things going for me. Wheels are already here and I have a friend with a 2017 Camaro SS that measured Brembo thicknesses for me. I also have Cobra brakes on a Mustang so I measured the rotor offset.

After all my measuring it looked to me like the Brembo front caliper would clear the wheel spokes by 1/8". From a performance standpoint I feel like these should be phenomenal, and sticking with 13" rotors up front saves on weight a little.

I ordered everything from Rock Auto and it all showed up today. I mocked up a rotor and caliper in a wheel (which is a difficult task with no spindle). My 6 year old daughter was kind enough to take the pics while I held everything in place. It looks like clearance is basically what I thought. It will depend a little on the radial placement of the caliper, but in these pics there are pads in the calipers, but the calipers are not compressed so there's about .100" of slop and I am letting that fall towards the spokes as a worst case look.

Overall, I'm pretty excited about these parts. Lots of brake for the money spent. Ended up going with Hawk HP+ pads as reviews seem great.

161552161553161554161555161556

[Ltngdrvr]

I appreciate all the replies in this thread. It made me take a real hard look at potential wheel clearance issues. Luckily, I had a few things going for me. Wheels are already here and I have a friend with a 2017 Camaro SS that measured Brembo thicknesses for me. I also have Cobra brakes on a Mustang so I measured the rotor offset.

After all my measuring it looked to me like the Brembo front caliper would clear the wheel spokes by 1/8". From a performance standpoint I feel like these should be phenomenal, and sticking with 13" rotors up front saves on weight a little.

I ordered everything from Rock Auto and it all showed up today. I mocked up a rotor and caliper in a wheel (which is a difficult task with no spindle). My 6 year old daughter was kind enough to take the pics while I held everything in place. It looks like clearance is basically what I thought. It will depend a little on the radial placement of the caliper, but in these pics there are pads in the calipers, but the calipers are not compressed so there's about .100" of slop and I am letting that fall towards the spokes as a worst case look.

Overall, I'm pretty excited about these parts. Lots of brake for the money spent. Ended up going with Hawk HP+ pads as reviews seem great.

161552161553161554161555161556

Dang! A 6-year old girl took those pics???:eek:
Is she available to hire out to take pics of my future projects???:)

[Cobra4me]

have you made the rear caliper holders ...would like to talk about buying some .....

[GT_Rich]

have you made the rear caliper holders ...would like to talk about buying some .....

I designed a bracket two weeks ago and ordered laser cut pieces. They were supposed to be here last week, but UPS isn't having an allstar performance with this one. I hope to have them at some point this week and will do a fit check and get some pics. I'm not here to make money. I will provide you a .dxf file and you can order from an online vendor like sendcutsend. A pair of brackets was $30.

[GT_Rich]

My bracket finally finally showed up a few days ago. Everything is assembled, shimmed, clearanced, etc. The bracket is a perfect fit. If using it with foxbody length axles it would not need a spacer, or maybe just a washer as a spacer. For 94-98 axles, it needs about an .800" spacer. Technically all my spacers are a slightly different length as I machined them to make the calipers perfectly square, but that's just me being OCD.

I am using a TrueTrac differential and machined the center button that retains the c clip axles so that the axles are a snug fit. There's .002" of clearance. This eliminate pad knockback due to axle movement side to side. I also offset the caliper on the rotor so that I have .060" of clearance from the outside face of the rotor to the pad fully compressed. This is based on my fear of potential axle growth with heat. Considering a good bit of brake heat will go down the axle shaft, it's conceivable that the axle will grow relative to the housing. This should have me covered.

I'm pretty happy with how this all came out.

Rich

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[Skuzzy]

Did you check the button clearance with it hot? Heat it to 250F in some machine oil and check the clearance. You are cutting it close at .002".

[GT_Rich]

I did the math on it based on the CTE of steel and the distance between c clips. It will only expand .002" and that didn't take into account the fact that the case will be expanding as well. I also have the same clearance setup on our Mustang and it has been working. I agree it's close though!

[MB750]

I designed a bracket two weeks ago and ordered laser cut pieces. They were supposed to be here last week, but UPS isn't having an allstar performance with this one. I hope to have them at some point this week and will do a fit check and get some pics. I'm not here to make money. I will provide you a .dxf file and you can order from an online vendor like sendcutsend. A pair of brackets was $30.

I know it's a few years back, but could you please help me with that DXF for the brackets? I'm looking to upgrade my 8.8.

Please send me a PM if you see this, I may lose sight of this reply since I dont' come in this subforum too much.