Words of Wis-Dumb: Working with Fiberglass and Prep for Paint

[LCD Gauges]

I've done a few different key-word searches to learn the process of getting from A - Z with respect to preparing the body for primer and paint.

Nothing specific returns when searching for, "Fiberglass prep", "Body Work", "Sanding Fiberglass". So this thread is dedicated to all of the new
builders (like myself) who have little - to no experience with body work.

This post will be edited periodically to update the information. These recommendations come from members of this board. They all have their
strengths, and nobody's method should be taken as 'the golden rule'.

Safety
The pores in your skin open when you have a warm shower allowing the glass particles you just spend the day creating with your sandpaper to enter creating a seemingly incessant itchiness. Take a cold shower, the pores won't open and the fiberglass dust will wash away more readily. Proper breathing protection is important, you can't shower to wash the particles out of your lungs and I can't imagine how itchy it would feel inside your lungs.

And always practice safety when working this. You don't just cough this stuff up. Use the filter bags on your shopvac and suck up the fg dust/particles as you cut/grind/sand them if you can. Fans also help to push the dust out of your work space as you go. If you're working in an attached garage (as I am) take it all into the drive way. Your family will appreciate it.

Tips
When drilling fiberglass, start with a bit that is a few sizes smaller than the desired diameter. The 'glass tends to fray and split, so
working your way up from a smaller hole tends to leave a cleaner edge.

Use gloves at all times, or you'll be scratching and washing your hands for hours afterward. Also be sure to wear some sort of
filter over your nose and mouth. There's no need to ingest that crap.

Work in a circular motion and use little pressure when filing, or sanding. The 'glass eats away quickly and you'll end up with a
bite/valley in the immediate section almost instantly.

Measure twice, cut once. Rework and filling is a pain. I've already nicked through the front side of the light bucket (mine are
hollow which makes it easy for the drill bit to skip through).
Use similar product brand materials, do mix manufacturers if possible
Work on area of the car, don’t jump around.
Get the alignment done before trying to align the body work
Pin the rear of the car first and work toward the front
Do a dry run of everything you need to do before you do it for real with mixed goo. It will pay dividends down the road. You can always grind something off and then remake it with fiberglass

Most obvious tip (but a darn good one), was to use a stiff rubber block for sanding all your seams, soft ones sand on either side of what you are trying to sand.
Once you make the cut or drill that hole, you can not un-cut or un-drill that hole. When the body is laid up as one piece, and you remove part of that piece, there is no way to replace it. Yes, you can take fiberglass and resin and make patches and repairs, but:

1. They will NEVER be as strong as the original part because you are essentially just gluing the patch onto the existing surface. Laying new fiberglass over cured fiberglass does not make it one piece of fiberglass. It will forever be 2 pieces.....glued together by whatever bond strength the resin has.

2. You will never get back to the dimensions of the original part. I've had lots of doors come in on customers cars that the owner has already cut holes in and tried to install the doors. Once you cut the opening out for the latch hole, you can not make it smaller again, or move it over a little, etc. That material is gone. If you find that you cut the hole in the wrong place, and you need to adjust it to the point where the bolts that hold the latch to the fg door are....well, now hanging out in space where there used to be fiberglass.......well, it's not going to be pretty.......and new doors are $800 IIRC.


Great body work requires attention to detail and patience and lots of practice. If this is the first car you have done then take your time and don't create more work for yourself. Maybe offer free labor at a body shop in exchange for a little knowledge and experience.
one more thing that is huge, glass is real touchy to contaminants(sp), clean surface good first, then do not touch the raw glass once it's ready for the repair, I have seen even just the oil from our skin mess up a repair. I have fixed lots of old vettes, it is supriseing how clean you must keep the raw glass.

Materials
Another valuble supply is 3m 8115.

I ordered the Durablok kit, three(3) rolls of adhesive backed sand paper (80, 120 220 grit), an .8gal of Rage lightweight filler. I also have a gallon of resin, a gallon of reinforced filler, a bag of fg cloth, 3 bags of fg mat (3m from the home depot) and graduated cups, paint sticks, spreaders, cheap brushes and a fg roller. I

Dura Technologies, Duratec Gray Surface Primer 707-002

Evercoat Non-Clog Light Weight Filler

Technique
There is a pot life to epoxy so you do need to move (“apply fairly quick”) but don't rush it.

Check out some of the boatbuilding threads on other forums to learn their technique.

Keep your cuts on the safe side. You can easily cut it long, and then test fit and cut again or file-to-fit. You can NOT easily cut short and then make it longer again. Do not guess on where you're going to make your cuts and drill your holes. Take all the time you need to be sure that the hole you drill or the cut you make is exactly where you want it. One-shot-deal.


I am using the 80grit is used to knock down the flash and do the initial blocking of the gel coat (I have only completed the flash over the rear tires and RH front tire, saving it for after I finish all of the major stuff). I will use the 120grit to block after applying filler to the low spots. The sand paper(summit brand) is 48 times better than the auto parts of the shelf stuff. I've used the same 80grit piece on my long block to knock down the mold flash over the rear fenders and the RH side hood and it’s still like a fresh piece of sand paper. HTHs get you started.
I use Lite Weight products for body fillers. I prefer the "No Clog" but one of the pros I am using likes the Z-Grip. I find the No Clog sands much easier, but the Z Grip goes on and spreads very nicely. Niether ones adheres to wood as well as Bondo or 3M body filler, so I use those where I have wood in place of fiberglass to form a shape for mold making. The Lite Weight fillers are about half the cost of Bondo when you get it by the case from a body shop supplier.

I'm using a high fill primer that is catalized with MEKP. Nasty stuff, same as is used as a catalyst in resins, but is supposed to dry really quickly.


This is one of the better "how to" videos I've found. Unfortunately, there's a bit of bad language in this clip, but I think it's
interesting (from a beginner stand point):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCphcA-MNVg&feature=related

[LCD Gauges]

Cry...nobody likes my creative thread title! "Whiz-Dumb" might have been funnier (an oxymoron yet)

Hoping some of the big-guns will respond (hint) like, Crash, VRaptor, and more from Big V!

I really don't want to hack this body work. It's a do-it-yourself project, but I'll be damned if this car will have a $2 body prep
and nasty paint job with imperfections.

Maybe paying someone is the only way to get the showcar finish?! I'm already feeling the crunch on my forecasted budget. $10K remains
to buy a transaxle, clutch, headers, starter, various donor parts and then paint?

I think $42K was a low-ball estimate :confused:

[Presto51]

"Cry...nobody likes my creative thread title! "Whiz-Dumb" might have been funnier (an oxymoron yet)"

Maybe we're still groaning over the title :)

What do you want to know??

Ron

[LCD Gauges]

Just some of the essentials:

- proper tools (spray gun, blocks for sanding, sandpaper grit for specific stages)

- suggestions for materials (filler, primer, paint)

- An out line of the entire process (in point form). IE: when to wet sand, how long to let the filler harden, number of paint layers/clear coat layers. Time between drying, etc.

[Kalstar]

Your title reminds be of a trip to an out of town Red Robin last month,

Took my 7 year old son in to take leak. The bath had two stalls and two uranals, you know the ones the stretch nearly to the floor, well anyway when we walked in there, there was a boy about my sons age with a military style short cropped haircut, looked liked a squared away young man in there all by himself. He raced over to take a piss, well about half way through I guess he thought it was hard work because he leaned forward resting his head against the inside of the urinal. When we left he was fevorishly washing his hands, I did not have the heart to tell him he should wash his head too.

I would say that, fits whiz-dumb pretty well.

[Presto51]

PM Sent

[VD2021]

Cry...nobody likes my creative thread title! "Whiz-Dumb" might have been funnier (an oxymoron yet)

Hoping some of the big-guns will respond (hint) like, Crash, VRaptor, and more from Big V!

I really don't want to hack this body work. It's a do-it-yourself project, but I'll be damned if this car will have a $2 body prep
and nasty paint job with imperfections.

Maybe paying someone is the only way to get the showcar finish?! I'm already feeling the crunch on my forecasted budget. $10K remains
to buy a transaxle, clutch, headers, starter, various donor parts and then paint?

I think $42K was a low-ball estimate :confused:

patience young padawan........:)

I have a lot of info. The majority of it is from your "big-guns" and I've gathered a lot of "hands-on" experience of the last few months working with Tom. I need to review the info so I can be of help. Just keep in mind I am not a body Guy and am learning.

To get you started here are a few items.

Body work supplies and tools.
I ordered the Durablok kit, three(3) rolls of adhesive backed sand paper (80, 120 220 grit), an .8gal of Rage lightweight filler. I also have a gallon of resin, a gallon of reinforced filler, a bag of fg cloth, 3 bags of fg mat (3m from the home depot) and graduated cups, paint sticks, spreaders, cheap brushes and a fg roller. I am using the 80grit is used to knock down the flash and do the initial blocking of the gel coat (I have only completed the flash over the rear tires and RH front tire, saving it for after I finish all of the major stuff). I will use the 120grit to block after applying filler to the low spots. The sand paper(summit brand) is 48 times better than the auto parts of the shelf stuff. I've used the same 80grit piece on my long block to knock down the mold flash over the rear fenders and the RH side hood and it’s still like a fresh piece of sand paper. HTHs get you started.

I can tell you that the body work on the GTM (unless you're a body guy) is by-far the most time consuming and attention to detail requiring part of the build. It took me about five months to get to go-kart stage. That was on an 8-16 hour+/- per week schedule. Even with the extensive wiring I did. I've been working on the body since midsummer and am hoping to have paint on it by late spring and that's with Tom's help. Of course a builder (I) could block the seams and body, make the windows go up/down, call it all "good enough" and them paint it. But I came to the conclusion that I didn't want the body work and paint to take away from what’s underneath. Because as we all know; if a GTM has had great body work and paint we all call it a great build, regardless of what’s going on underneath.

There are so many items on the body that require attention if you want a good fit and finish. Wheel wells, hood, doors, windows, hatch and the list goes on. Yeah, the Gen2 has nice fg cloth in the body now and some items are not as bad, but there are still a lot of issues.

And always practice safety when working this. You don't just cough this stuff up. Use the filter bags on your shopvac and suck up the fg dust/particles as you cut/grind/sand them if you can. Fans also help to push the dust out of your work space as you go. If you're working in an attached garage (as I am) take it all into the drive way. Your family will appreciate it.

[artistwantab]

I have not done body work on a GTM but have restored a number of cars over the years.

Great body work requires attention to detail and patience and lots of practice. If this is the first car you have done then take your time and don't create more work for yourself. Maybe offer free labor at a body shop in exchange for a little knowledge and experience.

[crash]

I'll be the first one to tell you that I am anything but a good body guy.

I get things close and call in the pros.

As with just about anything, I see it as worth my while to know my limitations and to pay someone more skilled than I to do a job. Especially when it's not one I particularly enjoy.

That said, I do all the roughing of the body, like filling holes, gluing panels together, rough flaring in of seams, etc, but then let the pros make it "perfect".

I use Lite Weight products for body fillers. I prefer the "No Clog" but one of the pros I am using likes the Z-Grip. I find the No Clog sands much easier, but the Z Grip goes on and spreads very nicely. Niether ones adheres to wood as well as Bondo or 3M body filler, so I use those where I have wood in place of fiberglass to form a shape for mold making. The Lite Weight fillers are about half the cost of Bondo when you get it by the case from a body shop supplier.

I'm using a high fill primer that is catalized with MEKP. Nasty stuff, same as is used as a catalyst in resins, but is supposed to dry really quickly. Haven't shot any yet, but I'm getting close.

[The Stig]

I'm not sure if you've gone there or not, but the ffcars forum has a section call "Ask Street Rod Painter". It is full of great information about all aspects of working the FFR bodies.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/33-ask-street-rod-painter/

We need something similar here, but it would take some time to build up the same amount of info that already exists there.

[fastthings]

I would not let that guy work on my car (the guy in the video). I don't want to bash anyone, even that guy. I will say this, he did not repair those cracks, he covered them up for a different day, probably less than 6 months down the road. I hope that car was not a paying costumer, because they got ripped off.

[LCD Gauges]

Now, this is more like it! I've already got a better handle on materials and tools just from these few posts.
Thanks to all that replied and anyone else that will jump in.

Crash, I haven't seen anyone tear apart a car (any car) like you have. If you're not the pro around here, I don't know
who would be!

Stig, I don't totally understand the conflict between both boards, but I tend to find this more of a family atmosphere. I've
met several people from this forum in person, and talked to many on the phone. This is where I normally go for information
and to try and help out where I can. By starting this thread, we can complile the information over time and make it just as
informative.

My plan is to video each step of the learning process and share for all the new builders that want to give it a shot.

Fastthings: if you don't mind, please elaborate on what the man is doing wrong in the video. What will the issue(s) be
as a result of his process/technique?

[fastthings]

I don't mind, but I can't type, so it takes me to long, and I don't want to start any pissin match.

I will never pretend to be able to teach someone how to do bodywork over the key board.

The repair video basicly is showing how to remove stress cracks, all he did was smear mud over the top of the cracks. He should have ground the cracks all the way out. It should have shown an erea
with all paint removed around the repair spot, cracks should have been ground all the way gone, that may have left you with a hole all the way through the glass, some of those cracks will go all the way through.

the void should have been filled with resin and matt, grind it down just enough to leave room for filler. At that point you can use a skim coat of mud(bondo), then a skim coat of a evercoat,(a different kind of filler that is made to blend onto paint or gelcoat. Bondo will stick to anything, but is not made to go over paint.

I could go on and on but I want to go tackle my door glass, one more thing that is huge, glass is real touchy to contaminants(sp), clean surface good first, then do not touch the raw glass once it's ready for the repair, I have seen even just the oil from our skin mess up a repair. I have fixed lots of old vettes, it is supriseing how clean you must keep the raw glass.

lets start with that,

Gene

[The Stig]

Now, this is more like it! I've already got a better handle on materials and tools just from these few posts.
Thanks to all that replied and anyone else that will jump in.

Stig, I don't totally understand the conflict between both boards, but I tend to find this more of a family atmosphere. I've
met several people from this forum in person, and talked to many on the phone. This is where I normally go for information
and to try and help out where I can. By starting this thread, we can complile the information over time and make it just as
informative.



I don't want to change the direction of this post, as I feel that this forum needs a thread that specifically addresses this topic.

With that said, I agree with you 100%! This board has much more friendly atmosphere, Thanks mostly to Dave Smith and the Charter that he and the Moderators set forth from the very start. I respect the people here, because they go out of their way to show respect to others. I spend very little time on the other side, even though there are still a lot of very good people there as well. It's a shame how a hand full of people can ruin things for so many others.

[Kalstar]

I would have to slightly disagree, I belong to many forums. I would say both of the Factory Five forums are leaps and bounds above others I visit. In the other forums, there there is profanity, rudeness, know it alls or extreme distrust. Both of our sites are a great group, there is no one that I would not want to meet personally. The help and admiration shown is refreshing to say the least. (sorry for the hijack).

[crash]

Crash, I haven't seen anyone tear apart a car (any car) like you have. If you're not the pro around here, I don't know
who would be!



As you may know, I am fond of videos, and on my video for body work that is in the works, I will explain that it is easy to cut something apart. It is yet another thing entirely to put the pieces back together again and have everything come out, not only looking "right" but being right. Many bodywork issues are easy to do, but there are a good many "tricks" that only years of experience can gain you. I want to give insight to some of those, but IMHO, a body work guy is an artist. Every artist has his own interpretation of what is "right", so while I have two very seasoned pros working on the details of mine, it certainly doesn't mean that it is the "only way to skin a cat".

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

I don't have a ton of time available to go into too much here. What I will say is this. When working with fiberglass, pretty much every single hole you drill and cut you make is a "one-shot-deal". You do NOT have a chance for re-do's on things. Once you make the cut or drill that hole, you can not un-cut or un-drill that hole. When the body is laid up as one piece, and you remove part of that piece, there is no way to replace it. Yes, you can take fiberglass and resin and make patches and repairs, but:

1. They will NEVER be as strong as the original part because you are essentially just gluing the patch onto the existing surface. Laying new fiberglass over cured fiberglass does not make it one piece of fiberglass. It will forever be 2 pieces.....glued together by whatever bond strength the resin has.

2. You will never get back to the dimensions of the original part. I've had lots of doors come in on customers cars that the owner has already cut holes in and tried to install the doors. Once you cut the opening out for the latch hole, you can not make it smaller again, or move it over a little, etc. That material is gone. If you find that you cut the hole in the wrong place, and you need to adjust it to the point where the bolts that hold the latch to the fg door are....well, now hanging out in space where there used to be fiberglass.......well, it's not going to be pretty.......and new doors are $800 IIRC.

So keep your cuts on the safe side. You can easily cut it long, and then test fit and cut again or file-to-fit. You can NOT easily cut short and then make it longer again. Do not guess on where you're going to make your cuts and drill your holes. Take all the time you need to be sure that the hole you drill or the cut you make is exactly where you want it. One-shot-deal.

[crash]

Great observation Shane.

That said, it should be noted that while I have cut my body into 35 pieces at this point, I am NOT going to simply glue them back togehter, body filler it, and go. I am using the original GTM body as a base for a race car body. The pieces I put back together will form a plug so that a mold can be made in order to make a one piece part. My GTMR body will be in at least six different pieces. Hood, doors, center section, tail, and diffuser.This is one of the reasons it is taking me so long to do the body. I want it right because I am going to make more than one body from this project and I can either take my time and make it right before I pull a mold, or be tearing my hair out "fixing" things later. Do it once, do it right!

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

This is one of the reasons it is taking me so long to do the body. I want it right because I am going to make more than one body from this project and I can either take my time and make it right before I pull a mold, or be tearing my hair out "fixing" things later. Do it once, do it right!

You mean you don't want to have to fix the same things over and over and over again because of flaws in the way the parts are molded? That sounds like a new concept to me......:D I wish others had the same idea.........

[VD2021]

Tino,
Another valuble supply is 3m 8115.

[artistwantab]

I don't have a ton of time available to go into too much here. What I will say is this. When working with fiberglass, pretty much every single hole you drill and cut you make is a "one-shot-deal". You do NOT have a chance for re-do's on things. Once you make the cut or drill that hole, you can not un-cut or un-drill that hole. When the body is laid up as one piece, and you remove part of that piece, there is no way to replace it. Yes, you can take fiberglass and resin and make patches and repairs, but:

1. They will NEVER be as strong as the original part because you are essentially just gluing the patch onto the existing surface. Laying new fiberglass over cured fiberglass does not make it one piece of fiberglass. It will forever be 2 pieces.....glued together by whatever bond strength the resin has.

2. You will never get back to the dimensions of the original part. I've had lots of doors come in on customers cars that the owner has already cut holes in and tried to install the doors. Once you cut the opening out for the latch hole, you can not make it smaller again, or move it over a little, etc. That material is gone. If you find that you cut the hole in the wrong place, and you need to adjust it to the point where the bolts that hold the latch to the fg door are....well, now hanging out in space where there used to be fiberglass.......well, it's not going to be pretty.......and new doors are $800 IIRC.

So keep your cuts on the safe side. You can easily cut it long, and then test fit and cut again or file-to-fit. You can NOT easily cut short and then make it longer again. Do not guess on where you're going to make your cuts and drill your holes. Take all the time you need to be sure that the hole you drill or the cut you make is exactly where you want it. One-shot-deal.

Shane,

Can you recommend any how-to videos for working with fiberglass? I have built hot rods for the past 20 years but it has always been metal work and I am curious how my body work skills will transfer to fiberglass. I have already started to accumulate some fiberglass parts to do some practice tests before working on the GTM.

[LCD Gauges]

There are some good people in this world. I have to give a shout out to all the big guns that repsonded, as well as Ron who called me long distance to talk about
body work. I never connected with him until this thread; he doesn't owe me a thing, but he took the time to help. Awesome.

Crash, what's your view on the diffuser: is it functional on the street, or only necessary for higher speeds (IE: 100 MPH+).

(I just hijacked my own thread. oops)

[crash]

If you search "diffuser" on the other forum, there is a dissertation by me on the subject, but basically the diffuser, as mounted by FFR in the original design, IMHO, does not do much, if anything, and the higher speed stuff, where you would really need it, it will be ineffective. Again, IMHO, putting louvers into the diffuser and getting more airflow through the engine compartment is probably the best thing you can do with the standard diffuser. I think Shane may sell a kit for this?

Here's some pics of the products I use. Sorry, titles are reversed. Primer = Body Filler and Body Filler = Primer. :)

[posthaste]

I laughed when I saw the face attached to the video, that fellow has one of the best vids I have ever seen, the one about repairing stress cracks in fiberglass. He's real unique, and nothing pretentious about him, but no joke, the man taught me how to repair a stress crack.

Most obvious tip (but a darn good one), was to use a stiff rubber block for sanding all your seams, soft ones sand on either side of what you are trying to sand.
Gen1 seams I'm lookin at you!

After reading a thread about why most ppl sell their GTM, it seemed to me the majority felt they didn't think about a few areas when building and the fit and finish was not quite oem feel, and they felt they'd like another crack at it.
So in light of that, we're just going to tackle everything we can, but get a pro to help keep the fit and finish in line with what we want.
There's no shame in saying "I don't have the expertise to do this job, I need a pro."
The shame would be in being bullheaded about it and having less then the result you wished for;)
Chris
(Igor to gtm#12's owner)

[crash]

Chris,

I think your attitude is exactly right. I think the biggest thing that needs to be "put out there" is maybe some tips by people like Shane, or even a professional body man, maybe one of the sponsors of this forum? that tells us laymen what NOT to do that will potentially cause EXTRA work. A lot of stuff we can do ourselves, but the last thing we want to do, at least speaking for myself, is to do something that ends up costing me a ton down the road because I didn't understand what I was doing.

I'm in the enviable position that all I need to do is get my body to where the shape is right, as opposed to being able to take the stresses of continual motion. I can tell you that I would be much more hesitent to do the sorts of things I am doing if I was going to have to glue the pieces back together and actually use the finished product as a car body.

Long story short, IMHO there really is only one way to properly modify a fiberglass body extensively, and that is to make molds and pull a new, one piece body.

This is certainly not something most will want to do, so my suggestion is to keep the mods under control and, as Shane said, avoid making any more cuts or holes than you have to.

I am working right now on video of how to use body filler over both foam and over resin/fiberglass "repairs". Again, I'm no pro, but am doing these things with the guidance of the pros.

[RonSchofield]

I have learned a lot from talking to people who know more than I do. Because of this, I have done extensive mods to my coupe. I counted the other night and I am up to 22 molds and expect to finish with about 27 molds to make the changes I wanted to my coupe. I have learned a lot and have started to put some of the information on my blog. I would love to make a full new body mold with all the changes that I have made, but that isn't realistic. So under the guidance of those who know more than me, and trial and error on which products to use, I have learned a lot and hopefully my body will stay in one piece. With proper prep, proper materials, and proper techniques, I don't have the fear that I had when I first starting using bodywork. One nice thing is that with proper support, the Factory Five bodies are not in stress. Only time will tell if I succeeded in doing everything right. So far everything is as I hoped. Here are some pics of my changes.

New Rear Fenders / Recess for Billet Fuel Door

http://www.mycoupe.ca/modules/wordpress/images/20100621_1.jpg

New Rear Spoiler / Hatch Lock Recess / Recessed License Plate

http://www.mycoupe.ca/modules/wordpress/images/20100623_3.jpg

Side Scoops

http://www.mycoupe.ca/modules/wordpress/images/20100708_1.jpg

These are just on the body. I have also made:

Hood Side Vents
"A" Pillars
New Doors
Center Console
Dash

With many other things.

If you are interested, you can check out the following:

http://www.mycoupe.ca/search.php?query=fiberglass&mid=2&action=showall&andor=AND

[Sailor]

Cold shower.
It's true. I'm from the boatbuilding world (as you may have guessed from my online name) and I've done my fair (pardon the pun) share of work with "frozen snot" (google that one). The pores in your skin open when you have a warm shower allowing the glass particles you just spend the day creating with your sandpaper to enter creating a seemingly incessant itchiness. Take a cold shower, the pores won't open and the fiberglass dust will wash away more readily. Proper breathing protection is important, you can't shower to wash the particles out of your lungs and I can't imagine how itchy it would feel inside your lungs.
Take your time. There is a pot life to epoxy so you do need to move but don't rush it. Do a dry run of everything you need to do before you do it for real with mixed goo. It will pay dividends down the road. You can always grind something off and then remake it with fiberglass

lastly, check out some of the boatbuilding threads. There are a whole lot of people with a ton of fiberglassing experience who build boats. www.woodenboat.com/forum is a place that I frequent and there are enough people building boats that have fiberglass sheathings on them or have other fiberglass related questions and the threads there are filled with answers. It's a common substance in the boating world.
I can't help with fairing the surface to a show car perfection I don't think. I know how we do it in the boat building world but I don't know if it's the same with a car. I imagine it's not too different. We use a "longboard" or "torture board". It's a thin flexible board say 3 inches wide to which a strip of sandpaper 3 inches wide by the length of the board (mine is about 30 inches long) is attached. I staple it to a wooden block mounted on either end of the board.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0cf03b3127ccefbf95489b78700000030O00AatmTRi5Yt2 YPbz4O
I hope that worked. If not, it's the 2nd picture on post number 32 of my build thread on the WBF: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?85424-Redbird-Progress

Hope that works for everyone. If you have any other questions, let me know. I'm pressed for time right now but that's the gyst of it. Good luck with it all everyone.
Daniel

[crash]

Funny. One of the guys that is working on my project was the head mold maker for Ultra Custom Boats for a number of years before they went BK.

I have to agree. Boat makers have more FG experience than just about anyone else.

Your coupe mods look really good, but I don't know how you can say that the body won't be under stress. EVERY vehicle body is under stress due to the motion of the vehicle. Some bodies are under more stress than others, but ALL of them have to deal with movement and a certain amount of flexing.

[RonSchofield]

Funny. One of the guys that is working on my project was the head mold maker for Ultra Custom Boats for a number of years before they went BK.

I have to agree. Boat makers have more FG experience than just about anyone else.

Your coupe mods look really good, but I don't know how you can say that the body won't be under stress. EVERY vehicle body is under stress due to the motion of the vehicle. Some bodies are under more stress than others, but ALL of them have to deal with movement and a certain amount of flexing.

The stress on the body for Factory Five cars is much less than would be a boat or a car that relies on the fiberglass as part of the interior. With the strength of the Factory Five frames, there is minimal stress. I should have said it won't be under stress like other fiberglass projects.

Ron

[VD2021]

Tino,
I just sent you an email.

[LCD Gauges]

Thanks everyone. I'm going through all the notes and info from the phone calls. I'll update this thread and also edit the first post so that all
data is easily accessed instead of sifting through all of the posts.

[LCD Gauges]

Please note: I've updated the first post with comments from all users for an easy access, one post look-up.

There is some info collected from phone calls and PM's so have another look.

I still have more data to cut and paste; I'll update you ... as I update me! ;)

[mmaragos]

I have found quite a few tips on fiberglass fabrication at this website, http://www.fiberglassforums.com/. There are very interesting builds, many are in the "Automotive Exterior" subforum, including a redesign of an MR2. They have a lot of ideas for scratch build / one-offs.

[MTSCustoms]

I come from an automotive electronics/custom car audio background so here are my tips for working with fiberglass:

-I like to take 2 inch brushes and cut them down to about 3/4" length so that the bristles are not flimsy, then use the brush to poke the mat or cloth as opposed to spreading outwards. This will prevent the mat fibers from standing straight up, and will help to take all the bubbles out.

-make sure to use the proper amount of hardener when mixing the resin, as too much will result in your resin becoming jelly in a matter of minutes, and too little will prevent your glass from hardening at all and you will be left with useless Matt covered in resin that won't harden.

-USE GLOVES AND LONG SLEEVES AND DO NOT USE HOT WATER AFTERWARDS! I cannot stress this enough, but fiberglass particles will ruin the lives of anything in their path with itchiness and irritation.

Good luck
-Scott

[VD2021]

I like using the roller for a bubble-less application of fg. When I use a brush it creates a vacuum on its way out which pulls air in making it harder and take longer to get the air out. I've found it also forced me to use more resin than I do with the roller. What I want to see is total translucence with mat and close to the same with cloth. If its not translucent there is air in it.

On the hardener amount. I like to use about half of what is suggested on the container. You could go even less if you want a longer working time and/or are working a large or difficult area. You want time to saturate the mat/cloth, apply it and roll out all of the air. You can then hit it with the heat gun to speed up the process from there. But if you add to much it will gel and become waist. If this is before you've had the opportunity to complete all of the steps you also now have a sub-par lay of material.

[crash]

Really depends upon ambient temp. I increased MEKP amount substantially last night as opposed to what I did during the day-almost double- and STILL had to IR lamp the last layup I did to get it to cure. IMHO knowing the correct amount of hardner to use in relation to base material is somewhat of an art form and you won't really get a feel for it until doing it ALOT in varying conditions and with varying products. I think, given the choice, I would err on the side of slightly too little, as you suggest Vidal. At least that way, as long as you have enough to actually get the reaction done, you can always force it with an outside heat source.

[fastthings]

I remember one time in the hot summer day, I mixed a batch of glass. I'm always in a hurry while at work, so I mix the stuff pretty hot as a rule. Anyway it ws mixed in a paint can, after I was done I turned around and the left over stuff in the paint was smoking. Yes, it had kicked so fast it litraly was smoking hot.

[RonSchofield]

I just finished my 10th or 11th gallon of vinyl ester working on my coupe. I have made 23 molds. The biggest tip I can give is that you use a good quality vinyl ester. On my 3rd or 4th gallon, my supplier couldn't get the one I was using and I purchased it. I am very detailed when mixing and use a scale to measure. With that poor quality resin, I had a couple batches in that gallon that never cured and I had others that smoked because it was too hot. Both times I measured them and had the different problems that people have mentioned. I have never had a single mix go wrong with the quality resin that I use no matter if in the winter or summer. I use Vipel FO10-TBN-28 Vinyl Ester Resin.

I am starting to put a list of stuff and techniques on my blog site.

http://www.mycoupe.ca/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=32

[LCD Gauges]

Bumping this thread (I meant to update this one instead!)

I'm just about to tackle the next stage of body work, so I thought I'd share the tools that I'll be using. Now that the flashing has been filed down (I used a medium coarse steel file), I'll be attempting to blend the seams with the curves of the body.


I'll be purchasing a sanding block (rubber backing) for the task, and using this sanding tool which also has a rubber backing:
89108911

The next couple of days will be spent reading this forum, and watching some videos on fiberglass prep. I'll be researching which types of products to use for filler, prime,
paint, etc.

I'll try to keep detailed photos of each step so that new members, and novice bodyworkers (like myself) can feel more comfortable carving up their cars! One of the first
spots to fix up will be the hood. My car wont have any louvers installed, and I don't plan to cut large holes for the mesh. Alternate ideas are on the table for getting the
air/pressure out of the radiator area.

The first pass of block sanding and filler will target the headlights, and the parting lines around the nose of hood. Wish me luck, and please feel free to leave more links/tips!
8912

[crash]

One of the first things I would invest in is an inline air sander. It makes shaping and getting things straight MUCH easier.

[LCD Gauges]

Something like this?

http://www.trade-equip.co.uk/aaa_core_images/productimages/SP-935NEW.jpg

[LCD Gauges]

Vidal,

What do you suggest for a wax/grease removal product? I'm searching online for "gel coat wax remover" and finding items that clean, but not necessarily remove the wax.

If understand the literature, there is a wax coating over the gel coat. I'm going to remove the wax coating from the entire car, and expose the gel coat.

In the end, I'll be sanding, and filling the gel coat layer. I do not want to sand through the gel-coat down to the fiberglass. The primer will go over the prepped gel-coat.

Correct?

Here is a good article on Fiberglass and Gel-coat care:

http://www.marinestore.com/fiberglass.html?cart=3417772543611309

[LCD Gauges]

Found one product:
http://carbodyrepair.com.au/3m/wp-content/themes/3m/images/products/PREPARE/thumbs/prepare_1.jpg
I'll be heading to the local hardware store this afternoon. Party time in my garage, who wants to help while I watch? :D

[crash]

If you go to the boat wax products, there is a wax prep solution that will strip and prep the surface for new wax. This should work for what you are trying to do. You could also wipe it down really good with something like MEK. That should pretty much remove anything that is on there. :)

And yes, that tool is what I was talking about.

[LCD Gauges]

Great, thanks I'll check out the wax prep solution. How is your car coming along? Is the body back together yet?

[crash]

Just closed up the hood radiator vents so I can relocate them, engine goes to dyno in a couple weeks, I'm having 4130 mandrel bent for the frame, and there are about five projects working for this years 25 Hour race with the FFR PDG GTM car. :) Lots of good things in the works. I will post them when Richard and crew decide it is appropriate. :)

[VD2021]

Vidal,

What do you suggest for a wax/grease removal product? I'm searching online for "gel coat wax remover" and finding items that clean, but not necessarily remove the wax.

If understand the literature, there is a wax coating over the gel coat. I'm going to remove the wax coating from the entire car, and expose the gel coat.

In the end, I'll be sanding, and filling the gel coat layer. I do not want to sand through the gel-coat down to the fiberglass. The primer will go over the prepped gel-coat.

Correct?

Here is a good article on Fiberglass and Gel-coat care:

http://www.marinestore.com/fiberglass.html?cart=3417772543611309

Klean-Strip Prep-All Wax and Grease Remover. I have four or five aerosol cans but you can buy it by the gallon for use in a sprayer.

Yeah. You're on the right track. With the gel-coat cleaned you can use it as a guide coat. You can put your filler or your primer directly onto it after its been sanded. Low spots that are not touched during blocking will need to be sanded so that the filler adheres as it should.

The gel-coat should be removed completely for your fiberglass/epoxy work on the body.

[LCD Gauges]

Cool, very cool. Sorry in advance for all of the 'hand holding', and double checking.

I really don't want to move forward, and ruin the process making the paint look like hell in the end.

Bought the stuff, and I'll be starting the dirty work tomorrow.

Thank you all for holding my hand throughout the body work procedure!!! :p

[VD2021]

I completed the gaps on my hatch this afternoon and wanted to add to your thread. I got this idea from Gene (fastthings).

I used the middle sized Body Filler Applicator, that I attached a self adhesive strip of 80grit to one side of, to finalize the gaps. It worked perfectly for an even gap all around. Just sanded them close and just under sized prior to using the tool. Thanks Gene.

[LCD Gauges]

This afternoon I started to strip off the wax coating using an aerosol product. You spray it on the surface as if you were painting,
and then wait for the section to start bubbling. Once the bubbles appear, the coating sort of shaves off with a flat edge spatula/putty knife.

The area went from a smooth gloss appearance to a dull looking gray once the wax was lifted. Here are some pictures of what to expect if you've never done this before (like me!).

This is the back side of the spoiler as a test surface.

89398940

This is the roof of the car. Just half complete for now. Lots of time required to prep the body for sanding and primer. I can see
why some shops will charge $10K to $20K for paint!
8941

[Presto51]

Something like this?

http://www.trade-equip.co.uk/aaa_core_images/productimages/SP-935NEW.jpg

Be very careful Grasshopper when using this air file.

Used by inexperienced hands they can cause you more heartburn then you bargained for. There is a reason body shops make the helpers start off with hand sanding blocks.

[crash]

Be very careful Grasshopper when using this air file.

Used by inexperienced hands they can cause you more heartburn then you bargained for. There is a reason body shops make the helpers start off with hand sanding blocks.


True, but with the size job that the GTM is, I think it will save a TON of time. I use mine EVERY day. Just don't over do it! :)

[VD2021]

True, but with the size job that the GTM is, I think it will save a TON of time. I use mine EVERY day. Just don't over do it! :)

I purchased one of those last year and have yet to open it. Do you Guys have any tips (words of wisdom) on using it? Do you make the same movements as you would with a block? I can see that keeping it flat and appling even pressure will be important.

[fastthings]

I purchased one of those last year and have yet to open it. Do you Guys have any tips (words of wisdom) on using it? Do you make the same movements as you would with a block? I can see that keeping it flat and appling even pressure will be important.

That thing will get you in trouble if you don't know what your doing. I like using a mud hog, or a da sander. The gtm is mostly rounded. Use a cross hatch patern what ever you use.

[LCD Gauges]

Thanks for the warning, however I was already aware of the risks from watching some tutorials. It's apparently very easy to 'burn' through when using electric/pneumatic tools.

For now I'm using a double sided rubber sanding block (one side is convex, the other flat), and also a rubber padded flat block with a handle which has more surface area.

All I know (right now): is not to use your bare hand because the pressure will not be uniform on the area you are sanding, and that electric tools will eat away too much
material in a short period of time if you're not careful.

[Presto51]

Tino, Vidal,

I’m helping forum member Rumrunner with his body work. We have done an extensive amount of work on the body and the only power sander that we used was a DA, to buzz down the body, and a large slow rpm grinder, on some of the “glass work”. The rest of the “mud” work was done by hand blocking.

Like Gene said the GTM has more curves than Crash’s fantasy girlfriend, so we had to block in a multiple cross hatch pattern, using long strokes. Don’t forget to use a guide coat when sanding down the body filler, that will help in showing what are the high and low spots

Also remember, the fiberglass is not very thick, so IMHO, the air file will have tendencies to vibrate the body, making it harder to keep it flat, and harder to read/determine the high’s and low’s in the panel

Ron

[crash]

This may sound kind of wierd, but this is a Zen type of thing...be the sander! :) I use the air inline to rough things down, get them relatively straight, and then use a DA to finish up. You can keep from taking to much off by being mindful of what grit you are using. I rarely use the air file in the same position over and over again. Only when roughing really. Then I use it at varying angles and positions to get the shape I want/need. Occasionally I will even use a disc grinder with a 60 grit pad to rough stuff, then go to the blade, then the DA. I use 3M spray adhesive on the air file strips to help keep the paper flat when doing rounded shapes. I'm by no means an expert, this is just what has worked for me.

[VD2021]

Thanks Gentlemen. Sounds like it will stay in the box and I stick to the durablock kit.

Anyone have a special or unique technique for rounding/softening the panel edges after you've gapped them?

[LCD Gauges]

A bit of progress today as the roof, and hood have been stripped and cleaned. By the end of the week, I'm hoping to
have the rear, and doors stripped as well as most (if not all) of the car roughed up.

Here are some close-up shots for the n00b's:

If you're using an aerosol cleaner like myself, this is the appearance of the product once it begins to blister up. At this point,
the top layer is ready to scrape off.
8964



On the left you see the factory finish of the gel coat. It looks somewhat smooth, and glossy.

On the right you see the remains of the gel coat after scrapping the surface away. What appears to be water spots are
actually bumps in the coating. This is what needs to be sanded down to achieve a flat surface. I'm thinking a medium-light
grit will take of this task.
89628963

Hood stripped (left), Half of the hood wiped down after stripping:

89678968

[fastthings]

[QUOTE=00SS_M6LS1;57448]A bit of progress today as the roof, and hood have been stripped and cleaned. By the end of the week, I'm hoping to
have the rear, and doors stripped as well as most (if not all) of the car roughed up.

Here are some close-up shots for the n00b's:

If you're using an aerosol cleaner like myself, this is the appearance of the product once it begins to blister up. At this point,
the top layer is ready to scrape off.
8964

What the heck is going on here. The gel coat should not be bubbleing up, there should be nothing to scrape off. When using wax and greese remover you should wipe it on wet. Then wipe it off with a clean dry cloth. Wipeing it on is not the majic, wiping off hte residue is what your going for. I hope you don't have some type of industrial remover doing way to good of a job. Looks like you have something eating into the gel coat, the spots that are raised may be where it soaked into the gel coat?

All that should be happening is getting it wet, then wipeing it dry until a residue apears, then wipe off the residue.

I would let that bubbled up stuff cure a day or so, then hit it with a da sander until smooth.

[Presto51]

Anyone have a special or unique technique for rounding/softening the panel edges after you've gapped them?

Vidal the trick is pretty simple. When you get close to the pre-determined size of the gap that you want, just take the 80 grit sandpaper that you are using and fold it over in a concave, with grit on both sides and just run it around the edges.

I know you have big guns, but you don't need to use them, just be gentle :)

[LCD Gauges]

8964

What the heck is going on here. The gel coat should not be bubbleing up, there should be nothing to scrape off.

Gene,

It's not the gel coat that is bubbling up, it's the spray-on cleaner. I'm using a metal putty knife/spatula to collect the spray and what appears
to be a very thin layer of clear coating over the gel-coat.

The material that is removed is clear, not black so I don't believe anything is getting eaten up. After I wipe down the area with a damp cloth, it
looks similar to the original finish, but dull and has those tiny raised spots.

Perhaps I should be using a rag to wipe off the spray? The instructions show otherwise. NOw I'm a little confused, but not concerned...yet.

[fastthings]

It's just odd that as a final product, your left with a bumpy surface, looking like a raised water spot.

[VD2021]

Tino,

What exact product are you using? Reminds me of a paint remover. I've read many body work threads and instructions (most from the other forum and with roadsters in black gel) and I have never seen anyone use a product that needed to do this. The klean-strip (and maybe comet and dish detergent) should be all you need for removing the remaining mold release wax and any contaminants from the surface. What ever you're using may be reacting with the gel-coat. I don't think you should end up with "bumps in the coating". Or maybe its fine??

[carbon fiber]

you've got a reaction with the cleaner/stripper that you're using. it shouldn't bubble up at all. what do the ingredients list contain?

[LCD Gauges]

It's a coating stripper from work which contains some methylene chloride. It's an industrial strength cleaner that is used to remove varnishes, wax, clear coats, grease, etc. It says it wont harm paint.

Need to wear gloves, and use in an open area. Also recommends wearing a mask. Maybe I need to get something a bit less potent?

Whatever the case, the gel coat is still intact, and looks good. I'm a little concerned about these raised spots but it's nothing a bit of
sanding wont cure. I'm guessing 0.005 - 0.010" to remove (a couple sheets of paper)?

I'll see if I can locate some Klean-Strip, or the 3M product that I linked above for the remainder of the car.

[fastthings]

Ya man, ditch that stuff. It has effected the gel coat, and I would fully let it cure before sanding. The auto industry wax grease remover is very mild stuff, lots of brands, all the same stuff.
http://www.duplicolor.com/products/greaseWaxRemover/

Iv'e always used 3M products, but these days lots of good choices out there for products.

[carbon fiber]

x2 on letting it cure before resurfacing. i use acme automotive-finish 1 part #ft200 suface cleaner. the 3m stuff is fine also.

[LCD Gauges]

I forgot how informative this thread was as I'm re-reading the replies before moving back to body work/prime prep. Here are some awesome repsonses from Steve, and Michael.

Steve - SK7500

If you are having trouble painting the aluminum panels without runs and drips I suspect painting the whole body will be quite the challenge for you. That being said, those aluminum panel are a great place to practice. Remember just because you paint it and it doesn't turn out doesn't mean its ruined. It just means you have a great base to sand on and try it again. I'm pretty sure the second time will be better than the first.
I'm thinking along the same lines on painting your car. Running your car in primer can look pretty good as long as it's all one color. There are two kinds of primer. One is a filling primer. This primer is used to fill the scratch marks from the bodywork and create an even substrate to block sand. If you block across Fiberglass, gel-coat, filler, and primer its all but impossible to sand it smooth enough so you wont see it in the gloss of the final paint. But if you bury those 4 different substrates all having different hardness's under a filling primer, then when you block sand the primer you are sanding one substrate with one density. Unless you cut through the primer you will net a straight smooth surface. If you do cut through the primer you just need to spray on some more and block it again. eventually you will be able to block sand your entire car without cutting into any of the other substrates.The problem with running this kind of primer is that it is an open cell to make it easy to sand. This open cell makes it very easy for road contaminants to bleed into the primer. Things like bird droppings, greasy hands, road grime and bugs to name a few, will embed themselves into this filling primer contaminating it. If you only plan to drive your car in controlled conditions then this would be fine. But there are some better choices if you plan to drive the car on a regular basis.
That brings me to the next kind of primer. That's a sealing primer. This is usually sprayed on just before top coating. Its function is to create a mechanical bond with the filling primer and a smooth even surface for the top coats to chemically bond to. This is typically a wet on wet application but if you want to run your car in primer this is what I would suggest because the sealer primer will not absorbe the contaminants as readily and will give you a smooth satin finish. You will have to sand this coat again before you can paint over it if you let it fully cure.
Of course if you are at this point, you will need a spraying area and you are two or three hours away from a full on paint job. The only thing you'll be saving is the cost of the paint materials.
My suggestion is that by the time you get finished spraying all this primer you will have developed your spray patterns and techniques. If you have the garage set up for spraying, seal it, spray on a couple coats of the base color and a couple coats of clear. Choose a solid color and paint your car one piece at a time. Spraying the base is no harder than spraying the primer. the clear is a little bit more challenging but it can always be color sanded and polished.
Now comes the most important thing for you to remember. You are only doing this paint job to seal up the substrates in preparation for your real paint job in a couple of years. Your bodywork will continue to move through the next year of it's life. I would imagine winter gets pretty cold in Canada
After the first year you might see some of your bodywork starting to shrink a little. No problem because this is only a shinny guide coat for your real paint job.
Or you might find that after about a hundred people tell you how cool it is you might just start believing them.

For grit recommendations I would suggest you talk the paint shop guys or someone familiar with the materials you plan to use.

But here are some rule of thumb recommendations I use.

36 grit) I use this for when ever I will be bonding something like a roof scoop on. It is also what I use for rough shaping body filler,

80 Grit) I use this to remove 36 grit marks and as the blocking grit to remove body seams. I will also block the entire car with this grit to make sure all the panels are straight. This is as fine of a grit as you need to use if you are going to spray filler primer over it.

150-180) this grit is great for initial blocking of the primer. However it is too fine to remove major imperfections. If you come up against a major wave after priming, use 80 grit to get the wave out. Then come back and remove the 80 grit marks with the 180. if you cut through the primer, give that area another another couple coats of primer and start over with the 80. If you use a catalyzed primer (and you should) be sure you abrade everywhere and beyond where you plan to re prime. The primer needs the abrasion to stick, or else you run the risk of separations between the primer layers.
One more note on primers. This is the softest layer is the paint process and the layer that if the paint chips, it will probably chip into this layer. So if you plan to paint your car Black or a dark color, don't use a light grey primer. Conversely if you are going to paint your car white or a light color don't use a black primer.
OK, so now you have the whole car blocked to 180. And you have very few if any places that you have cut through the filler primer. Guide coat the entire car or panel and sand off all the guide coat with 400 grit wet. There is no point in using a block any more at this point except it keeps you from putting finger ridges in the primer and it makes it easier to hold the sand paper. A fine sanding sponge dry works miracles in those hard to sand areas like door jambs. Remember every square inch of the surface you plan to paint must be abraded or you run the risk of lifting.
If you can get your car to 400 grit it is ready to be primed with the sealer and the final top coats. This is the work that makes the show car finish. Depending on the paint and painter they may want you to re guide coat and sand it to 600 grit but that's only another couple hours of sanding.
At this point a painter (or you) will take your car and spray on a sealer, the base color and the clear. These coats have to be layed down in a specific time window and should take no more than 6 to 8 hours. So if your paying someone big bucks for 6 to 8 hours work. Well lets just say let the buyer beware. You can go the same paint store as your painter and get the price on the materials. The materials alone for our car were about $2000 but that was for top of the line materials and our red is a 3 stage color with pearl. If you can go with a solid color and can stay away from reds it should be much less. I'm sorry, getting off on a paint tangent here.
The only time I use 600 grit is after I have painted my car up to the clear coats. I will usually sand the clear with 600 prior to applying a couple more coats of clear. This gives me a chance to work down graphic lines and any debris that may have landed in the first coats.
After my last coat of clear has cured I will sand the clear with 1000 grit to remove any orange peel. Then depending on the clear 1500 -3000 to take out the 1000 grit marks. Then a cutting compound with a cutting wheel to take out the 1500 - 3000 grit marks and then a polish to take our the cutting compound swirls.
So that's what I use the different grits of sandpaper for. If you ask 5 different guys you will likely get 5 different answers. So look at this as a rule of thumb. You really need to ask your painter and the material suppliers.

Michael - RumRunner

I used a 10'X20' "wedding tent" I got on Ebay for $99. I erected it in my garage (not attached to my house), and laid several pieces of 1/4" tempered hardboard for the floor. I duct taped every seam, including the floor, to make it as airtight as possible. At one end I cut openings for 8 16"x24" high filtration furnace filters and taped the filters over the openings. At the opposite end I used two adhesive zippers to make a large door to move the body pieces in and out. And to top it all off, I purchased two 12" ventilator fans each with 32 feet of ducting.

Fans | Blower Fans | Global Portable Ventilation Fan 12 inch With 32 Feet Flexible Ducting | 246432 - GlobalIndustrial.com (http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/fans/blower/portable-ventilation-fan-12-inch-with-32-feet-flexible-ducting)

When painting, I'd leave the bottom of the door zippers undone a bit and put the 12" duct through the door into the booth. Then I put the fan motors 32' away exhausting the booth air/fumes far from my house and garage. It worked like a charm. Always had excellent visibility when spraying primer, color, or clear, and the finish came out great. A few dust nibs here and there, but was able to sand/buff them all out. Finish looks like glass. I'll post pictures in a few weeks when it's all together.

I used Glasurit for primer, color, and clear. My sanding/priming/painting progression was:
Primed every piece with 3 coats, then wet sanded with guide coat at 600 grit to flatten everything out.
Next applied the first of three colors (3 coats) to every piece, and topped it with 3 coats of clear.
Then wet-sanded the clear with 1500 to get a nice flat uniform surface.
Then applied the second and third colors (3 coats one, 5 coats the other), and then covered everything with 6 coats of clear.
Then hit the final clear with 1000 grit wet-sand, followed by 2000 and 3000, then 3M #2 polish on a wool pad, the 3M #2 polish on a foam pad, and finally 3m #3 polish on a foam pad. Takes time, but looks amazing. Close to $3K for materials.

[LCD Gauges]

More pictures to help the noobs like me get through their first body prep. After about a year of sitting without any sealer, or paint,
this car has accumulated a bunch of debris, hand prints, and spills from various garage solutions.

The first step was blowing off the loose dirt with compressed air, then rinsing the body with the garden hose.

Second, I used an organic soap with warm water, and sponge to hand wash the car, followed by another rinse.

Third step was a degreaser in the rear where I plan to work first. Leaving the car exposed for too long without
cleaning seems like a bad idea, and therefore the degrease step will happen just before filling, sanding the local area.

Wear latex gloves to prevent oil from your hands getting onto the surface. Do not let anyone
touch the car with their bare hands.

Question: Would you build this area with fiberglass (short strand?), or body filler? Let's say the depth is about 2 mm (or 1/8").
21723

Initially I used a razor blade to remove tape residue, and other large debris.
This was followed by compressed air, then a rinse. After that soap/water
wash, then degreased.
2172721724

Contamination such as these took several passes to remove. I used a stronger
concentration of degreaser, and rinsed with soap
to ensure the oily residue was completely gone. If the water beaded, or didn't "stick",
another round of cleaning was done.
2172521726

Does anyone have any comments, or rituals for cleaning before body prep?

[rev2xs]

Question: Would you build this area with fiberglass (short strand?), or body filler? Let's say the depth is about 2 mm (or 1/8").

It depends if this area will see a lot of stress and flexing relatively speaking. If not, then in situations like this i used a special filler with glass strands already in it. That stuff is readily available here in Poland from any auto parts store. Its MUCH stronger than ordinary filler as its basically fiberglass in filler form but the problem is that it is a lot more difficult to sand. If this area is in the corners of the rear hatch opening, anywhere around the doors area or wheel wells, then i would glass it in.

[LCD Gauges]

Thanks for the reply Tom, I was thinking 'glass as well, but I wasn't sure if it was overkill for such a small area. This is the right side trunk seam, so it will see a bit of stress.

[VD2021]

More pictures to help the noobs like me get through their first body prep. After about a year of sitting without any sealer, or paint,
this car has accumulated a bunch of debris, hand prints, and spills from various garage solutions.

The first step was blowing off the loose dirt with compressed air, then rinsing the body with the garden hose.

Second, I used an organic soap with warm water, and sponge to hand wash the car, followed by another rinse.

Third step was a degreaser in the rear where I plan to work first. Leaving the car exposed for too long without
cleaning seems like a bad idea, and therefore the degrease step will happen just before filling, sanding the local area.

Wear latex gloves to prevent oil from your hands getting onto the surface. Do not let anyone
touch the car with their bare hands.

For these bodies a good technique is to start with comet (powdered, slightly abrasive, cleaner), a scotch green scouring pad and lots of water (garden hose preferably). Rinse well and then use an automotive wax/grease remover. Follow the wax/grease remover's instructions. Are you referring to an automotive, bodywork/paint prep, wax/grease remover, when you say "degreaser"?



Initially I used a razor blade to remove tape residue, and other large debris.
This was followed by compressed air, then a rinse. After that soap/water
wash, then degreased.
2172721724

Saturate the tape resadue with the wax/grease remover, let it set for a few minutes and the residue will wipe away with a shop or microfiber cloth. This way you don't risk gouging the surface, making more work for yourself, or forcing the contaminants into the surface.


Contamination such as these took several passes to remove. I used a stronger
concentration of degreaser, and rinsed with soap
to ensure the oily residue was completely gone. If the water beaded, or didn't "stick",
another round of cleaning was done.
2172521726

I would opt to use the comet cleaner and green scouring pad for this followed by the wax/grease remover.

[LCD Gauges]

Cool tips Vidal, thank you. Yes, I'm referring to an automotive grade degreaser.

I've been reading about compressor pressure for spraying primer, and paint. I've seen between 20-25 PSI, and adjust for
best application based on the gun design. I'll have to rent/upgrade my compressor as it's too small for painting. What's
a good size based on your experiences?

[Presto51]

You need a compressor with a high CFM Rating. I would say a good target would be 5 hp with 11 to 15 CFM @ 90 or 100 PSI with a tank size of 30 to 50 gal

[VD2021]

You need a compressor with a high CFM Rating. I would say a good target would be 5 hp with 11 to 15 CFM @ 90 or 100 PSI with a tank size of 30 to 50 gal

Yeah.

Or you may want to try Eastwood's Contours paint gun. http://www.eastwood.com/ew-concours-paint-gun-w-3-tips-plasticandmetal-cup.html

[LCD Gauges]

I already have a paint gun, but maybe I'll use that for the priming stage, and rent/buy a better one for the colour & clear stages. From what I've read,
the priming guns don't have to be super-crazy spectacular as long as the base adheres properly, and is sanded correctly.

Last night I made a small cubicle (about 8' per side using plastic) to contain the primer mist, and keep some dust out. This will be used to
prep small parts such as the doors, hatch, and maybe the hood. The door braces came out fairly well after a night of drying.
They were sanded, and treated with a rust inhibitor first.

The next steps will be: a fine grit sand, clean/wash/dry, then spray first coat of colour.

217892179021791

Don't laugh, but the door brackets were primed with spray can. I'm not going for a show-car shine
for these parts as they will be hidden; I'm just preventing any rust from occurring.

You can see small particles that will be sanded down before the colour is applied.

For the fiberglass, the panels were degreased, then dried, followed by a wipe with a lint-free cloth.
The first pass of filler was spread fairly thin, and feathered out far enough past the joints.
21793
I used a spot putty to fill in small pin holes in the existing filler. This will harden over night,
then I'll use a 400 grit to sand out any previous scratches in the body (using a criss-cross pattern).
21794

That's the plan. I'm not writing this because I think I'm a pro, I'm putting it all on the table for the pros to critique!

[VD2021]

Don't laugh, but the door brackets were primed with spray can. I'm not going for a show-car shine
for these parts as they will be hidden; I'm just preventing any rust from occurring.

Tino,
There's nothing wrong with using a rattle can to take care of the door frames. And it looks like it went on very nicely. Rattle cans are usually lacquer based. So you want to continue with the same when you top coat them.

Do we get to see the cube?:)

[Presto51]

I already have a paint gun, but maybe I'll use that for the priming stage, and rent/buy a better one for the colour & clear stages. From what I've read,
the priming guns don't have to be super-crazy spectacular as long as the base adheres properly, and is sanded correctly.

Last night I made a small cubicle (about 8' per side using plastic) to contain the primer mist, and keep some dust out. This will be used to
prep small parts such as the doors, hatch, and maybe the hood. The door braces came out fairly well after a night of drying.
They were sanded, and treated with a rust inhibitor first.

The next steps will be: a fine grit sand, clean/wash/dry, then spray first coat of colour.

217892179021791

Don't laugh, but the door brackets were primed with spray can. I'm not going for a show-car shine
for these parts as they will be hidden; I'm just preventing any rust from occurring.

You can see small particles that will be sanded down before the colour is applied.

For the fiberglass, the panels were degreased, then dried, followed by a wipe with a lint-free cloth.
The first pass of filler was spread fairly thin, and feathered out far enough past the joints.
21793
I used a spot putty to fill in small pin holes in the existing filler. This will harden over night,
then I'll use a 400 grit to sand out any previous scratches in the body (using a criss-cross pattern).
21794

That's the plan. I'm not writing this because I think I'm a pro, I'm putting it all on the table for the pros to critique!

Tino,

Check/read the MSD that comes with the primer that you’re going to use. A lot of today's high fill/build primers carry a recommendation as to what size fluid tip and air cap to use. Most common sizes are 1.8 all the way up to 2.0. Use too small tip and air cap, the primer will be hard to spray out and you will be hating life. :mad:

[VD2021]

Tino,

Check/read the MSD that comes with the primer that you’re going to use. A lot of today's high fill/build primers carry a recommendation as to what size fluid tip and air cap to use. Most common sizes are 1.8 all the way up to 2.0. Use too small tip and air cap, the primer will be hard to spray out and you will be hating life. :mad:

Ron,

Great info.

On that subject.... One should always have, read and re-check the Technical Data Sheet.

[BobbyB]

Its kinda expensive but DuPont 3812 enamel reducer does a good job cleaning. Leaves no residue and dries very quick.
Bob

[LCD Gauges]

Yes, of course you can see the cubicle, but don't expect a "paint booth" by any stretch of the definition.
It's essentially 4mil plastic hung from the garage door rails, and stapled/taped at the seams. I'll
have to improve the filtration once the primer is ready to spray.

Ron, thanks for the tips. I found some great info about paint guns, and primers tonight.
These guys appear to know their stuff, and have made me realize there's much more to learn
before I begin the primer prep stage.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu3KxqH7mM0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DXdrcsBeEcA
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BUjmqdoqxL4

[LCD Gauges]

Thanksgiving Weekend here in the North, so happy THXGVG to all.

Talked to my dad last night about the car, and painting. Since we spoke last, he met with his painter buddy again.
He relayed some interesting topics that I'd like to share with everyone. I'm not certain that these techniques, and tips
are the best methods, but it's more to research.

He said I should use a tinted primer to match the final colour. It will make it easier to cover the primer with less paint. Makes sense.


Use one, or two layers of paint over primer. More layers of paint is worse...hmmm? Not sure about this one. He is talking about water based paint.


Water based paint. Good, better, best? I'll need to check my options, and pros/cons.


800 grit blocking after 2K primer has been laid down. Sure, why not?

He says Black is easiest to paint, red is the most difficult. Not sure?

In any case, his friend wants to see the car, and would like to "shoot it" for me. We're tossing around some ideas to get the
car into a booth for the primer, and paint stage.

So much for me waiting 5 years to get it done, "pro"?

Back with more about pros/cons later.

[Taz Rules]

Thanksgiving Weekend here in the North, so happy THXGVG to all.

Back atcha, Tino


He said I should use a tinted primer to match the final colour. It will make it easier to cover the primer with less paint. Makes sense.
Yes. You can even use gray primer, but tint it to the correct value. BASF Glasurit has levels from 0 (black) to 7 (white), with 6 shades of gray in between. PPG has a similar system. Or you can tint your primer to colour, but that gets a bit more pricey.

Either way, this has two benefits...1. Better coverage with less paint, and 2. if you get a rock chip that goes down to the primer, it won't stick out on your finish like a sore thumb.



Use one, or two layers of paint over primer. More layers of paint is worse...hmmm? Not sure about this one. He is talking about water based paint.[/QUOTE]
Your colour coat should be sprayed to a semi wet coat, and repeat as many coats as necessary to cover. Use a spray out card with white and black sections as a guide. When you can't see the white/black demarcation on the card, you have coverage. Sometimes you can do it in two coats, such as with a heavy silver or black, other times it may take 4 coats such as with a white or yellow.

Follow with at least two coats of clear, three or four if you want to colour sand and polish.




Water based paint. Good, better, best? I'll need to check my options, and pros/cons.
Solvent borne paint is currently illegal in Canada due to VOC regulations. So you have to go with water borne colour and urethane clearcoats, and spray them with HVLP or RP technology spray guns.

RM is just (re)releasing the Onyx line, which is a VOC compliant solvent borne colour coat, but its performance is not as good as water bornes.

I've sprayed both, solvent and water, and my observation is that water borne paints lay much better metallics, because the flakes don't "float" and lay flat. Some people say that solvent has more brilliant colour, but I disagree. The big advantage of solvent is the ability to control your flash time and maintain a wet edge, especially with a complete paint job as opposed to a repair.

Overall, there's nothing wrong with water, in fact, I actually prefer to spray it.





800 grit blocking after 2K primer has been laid down. Sure, why not?
Thats a bit fine. Some body shops go to 400 to smooth primer. I do 600 for colour coats, and if I'm doing a blend, I'll go 800 on the BLEND AREA ONLY (where no colour, only clear will be sprayed.)

800 won't hurt, but its a bit of overkill. Just make sure you work your way up using progressively finer grits...

Block with 240 to straighten,
Guide coat (with powder) and block again with 320 to clear 240 scratch marks and MINOR straightening,
Guide coat (with powder) and Buzz or hand block with 400 to clear 320 scratch marks,
Guide coat (with powder) and Buzz with 600 to clear 400 scratch marks,
then if necessary, buzz with 800 to clear 600 scratch marks.

DO NOT SAND BETWEEN COLOUR AND CLEAR COATS!!!! Any pearl or metallic will give you a dark black smear!



He says Black is easiest to paint, red is the most difficult. Not sure?
Candies (tri-coats in modern parlance) are the most difficult, due to "tiger striping". Metallics and pearls are a bear if you don't follow the sanding procedure above, because the flakes will "track" into the sanding marks.
I've done reds and blacks. Black is very fussy with making sure you have proper prep. Any wave will show. Personally, I find white pearls the worst/most difficult.



In any case, his friend wants to see the car, and would like to "shoot it" for me. We're tossing around some ideas to get the
car into a booth for the primer, and paint stage.

So much for me waiting 5 years to get it done, "pro"?

Back with more about pros/cons later.

Big Pro!!!!!
Primers and paints...there are a lot of very good brands out there...
RM/Glasurit, PPG, Sikkens, DuPont...any of these will work very well. I would caution you to pick one system and stick with it from first primer through to clear coat. Mixing and matching brands can lead to problems as they are not always compatible.

Also, a little bit of flex agent in the clear will give it some added flexibility and cut down on rock chips. Just a little hint. :)

[LCD Gauges]

More reading for those wanting to learn more about body prep/primer/paint:

http://www.carsdirect.com/car-maintenance/show-car-paint-understanding-what-type-of-paint-the-pros-use

Thanks Taz for the awesome reply too!

I've taken some tips from each of you, and have applied them. I'll let you know how Vidal's procedure works for the pin-hole repairs that I'm
currently fixing. Should have pictures in a day, or two.