Is the ‘AC Cobra’ considered an American car or a British car??

[Otee453]

I am on a James Bond fan group on Facebook. A recent post on that page portrayed cars people desired to be next Bond cars. Although Bond didn’t exclusively drive British cars in the movies (Flemming’s novels, Bond drove only British cars), some people listed the AC Cobra as a perfect BRITISH Bond car.

So… what’s your opinion? Do you consider the AC Cobra an American car or a British car? How do you think the “car enthusiast world” views the AC Cobra?

[RoadRacer]

Being English, I'm voting American for the Cobra. Funny though I always think of the GT40 as English.

[ydousurf]

Being American, I consider it British with the American, specifically (CS) touch. Either way, with British Racing Green, you can't go wrong! Cheers! :)

[skidd]

IMO... The success of the AC is due to America. Yeah. Sexy British styling set the foundation for the success (GT40 included) , but Shelby/America made it real.
Therefore .. American.

[drewr]

Well, British body, chassis and rear end, combined with an American engine built in a Los Angeles speed shop with a healthy dose of Texas swagger! Successful mix! Would Bond drive it? Felix Leitner would. Might be a little too crude and colonial for Bond.

[Otee453]

Well, British body, chassis and rear end, combined with an American engine built in a Los Angeles speed shop with a healthy dose of Texas swagger! Successful mix! Would Bond drive it? Felix Leitner would. Might be a little too crude and colonial for Bond.

Not to mention, not much protection against bullets. Haha.

[David Hodgkins]

If you are talking AC COBRA, then clearly British. I think their current model is a Mark 4. The SHELBY COBRA is British/American, utilizing the British AC ACE and an American Ford 260ci V8 originally. Evolution of the Shelby/AC relationship from 62-67 is something I can't help with.

But strictly speaking, the AC COBRA is British IMO.

:)

[Vspeeds]

Good question. If I remember correctly; The British AC rolling chassis car that was imported to the USA for Shelby were stamped CSX. With the success of the Shelby Cobra's, AC chassis that were not exported to the USA stayed in the UK and were outfitted with American V8 engines also and were stamped COB/COX chassis. Since the body and chassis were manufactured in Britain, I'd say a British car...But then again American things nowadays are built in foreign countries and are labeled as American products.

[ydousurf]

Fun thread! Let me clarify my point-of-view...

Here in the States, if for example you put a Cheverolet power plant in a Ford chassis / Body; the diehard purists (myself included) would consider that sacrilege or more simply put --- CUSS-TOM. As in, why in the hell did you do that?

So, we have the (AC - Auto Carriers) chassis, body and other British components with an American power plant and some other enhancements added. And I for one do not believe that motor defines the vehicle maker!?

I guess if one needs more proof, then just look to the MK I, II, III, and many IV's with the fact that the American license plate would not fit optimally. Again, thanks to FFR for fixing that for us Yank's ;)

With that all said, I'll refer to mine as a BAC:
> British Auto Carrier
> British American Car
> Or maybe just a Bad-A$$-Car!

My argument might be a little stodgy for some, but I'll stick with the fact we beat the Ferrari's! And no offense to the Italians, I have some in my family :)

[GWL]

Simple, it's a Modified British Car.

The 427 had more crossover with a new chassis, new suspension, wider body fenders+ based on the American engine.

The 427 became closer to an American car than the 260/289 cars.

George

[Otee453]

Personally, I think the “Cobra” is viewed as an American car by the general American public. In fact, I think the general American public views the “Cobra” as the quintessential classic American sports car. Cobra enthusiasts have this hybrid view of the car. I wonder how Brits view the car?…. Is it “their” car and the yanks stole its identity & association from them? Or just that it’s still (always was) their car but Americans improved it and popularized the racing of it? Hmmm. Fun question

[David Hodgkins]

Personally, I think the “Cobra” is viewed as an American car by the general American public. In fact, I think the general American public views the “Cobra” as the quintessential classic American sports car. Cobra enthusiasts have this hybrid view of the car. I wonder how Brits view the car?…. Is it “their” car and the yanks stole its identity & association from them? Or just that it’s still (always was) their car but Americans improved it and popularized the racing of it? Hmmm. Fun question

Your question was about the "AC Cobra". There is a difference.

[J R Jones]

"So… what’s your opinion?"

Most people have an opinion, which is not necessarily history or fact. It is however what they live by.
AC started as a company in England in 1903/04.
The basic platform coveted here is the AC Ace from 1953.
The Cobra configuration is documented on this site already.
It is not universally recognized that AC had parallel "Cobra" production in Great Britain, not designated Shelby Cobras.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cars

Most current "replicas" strike me as personal interpretations of the originals. Maybe they should be recognized as (fill in the name) Cobras.

jim

[KDubU]

AC is British, end of story.

[ej95Cobra]

AC Cobra...turn the key...that sound is all American. Nothing matches the sound of an American V8!

[mrmustang]

I am on a James Bond fan group on Facebook. A recent post on that page portrayed cars people desired to be next Bond cars. Although Bond didn’t exclusively drive British cars in the movies (Flemming’s novels, Bond drove only British cars), some people listed the AC Cobra as a perfect BRITISH Bond car.

So… what’s your opinion? Do you consider the AC Cobra an American car or a British car? How do you think the “car enthusiast world” views the AC Cobra?

The original 260/289 "roadster", british, yes, the later FIA and 427SC and 427 street cars, no, American.

All based on the original design of the early AC body

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159888&d=1641678270


Just my two cents worth, but what would I know :rolleyes:


Bill S.

[Otee453]

Your question was about the "AC Cobra". There is a difference.

Spoken like a true “Cobra” enthusiast!

[tonywy]

American BAD A**.

[Derald Rice]

A bit of trivia...........

The AC Ace ('53-56) was replaced with the AC Bristol when AC stopped making their own engines.

The AC Bristol ('57-'63) came into being when AC started using the Bristol engines.

The Bristol engines were designed and used by BMW for their 1937-39 327 and 328 roadsters, and after WW2, Bristol acquired the rights to the engine as a result of war reparations and the fact that the BMW plant was destroyed and BMW needed money......The Bristol engine was discontinued in 1962.

So, it could be argued that the AC Bristol was not an entirely British car after all.....It was a British car with a German motor.

[red.barchetta]

289 British
427 American

[J R Jones]

289 British
427 American
Wikipedia:
427 Cobra A new chassis was required, developed, and designated Mark III. The new car was designed in cooperation with Ford in Detroit. A new chassis was built using 101.6 mm (4 in) main chassis tubes, up from 76.2 mm (3 in) and coil spring suspension all around (an especially significant change up front, where the previously-used transverse leaf spring had done double duty as the top link). The new car also had wide fenders and a larger radiator opening. It was powered by the "side oiler" Ford 7.0 L (427 cu in) FE engine equipped with a single 4-barrel 780 CFM Holley carburetor rated at 317 kW (425 hp; 431 PS) at 6000 rpm and 651 N⋅m (480 lb⋅ft) at 3700 rpm of torque,[12] which provided a top speed of 264 km/h (164 mph) in the standard model. The more powerful tune of 362 kW (485 hp; 492 PS) with a top speed of 298 km/h (185 mph) in the semi-competition (S/C) model.

Competition models (CSX/CSB 3001–3100)
Cobra Mark III production began on 1 January 1965; two prototypes had been sent to the United States in October 1964. Cars were sent to the US as unpainted rolling chassis, and they were finished in Shelby's workshop.

Unfortunately, The MK III missed homologation for the 1965 racing season and was not raced by the Shelby team. Only 56 of the 100 planned cars were produced. Of those, 31 unsold competition models were detuned and fitted with windscreens for street use. Called S/C for semi-competition, an original example can currently sell for US$1.5 million, making it one of the most valuable Cobra variants.[13]

Production models (CSX/CSB 3101–3360)
Some Cobra 427s were actually fitted with Ford's 7-litre (428 cu in) engine, a long stroke, smaller bore, lower cost engine, intended for road use rather than racing. The AC Cobra was a financial failure that led Ford and Carroll Shelby to discontinue importing cars from England in 1967.
jim

[kgkeys]

Just thought I'd give a kick-back to Toj.
Kyle
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tojeiro

[Jeff Kleiner]

Let's ask the question on some others mixed origin sporty cars...how about the Cobra's contemporaries the TVR Griffith 200/400 or the Sunbeam Tiger? Both British chassis with Ford 260 and 289 engines just like the Cobra. British or American? Come forward a bit to the Pantera; an Italian Chassis with Ford 351 Cleveland power. Italian or American? A more recent example; the Lotus Elise with British body & chassis and a Toyota powerplant. British or Japanese? Let's go the other way; Ford Taurus SHO with the body and chassis produced in the US and a Yamaha engine. American or Japanese. How you answer these might help you decide what the answer should be for the Cobra (even though it may not lead you to the conclusion you prefer ;)).

Jeff

[J R Jones]

Let's ask the question on some others mixed origin sporty cars...how about the Cobra's contemporaries the TVR Griffith 200/400 or the Sunbeam Tiger? Both British chassis with Ford 260 and 289 engines just like the Cobra. British or American? Come forward a bit to the Pantera; an Italian Chassis with Ford 351 Cleveland power. Italian or American? A more recent example; the Lotus Elise with British body & chassis and a Toyota powerplant. British or Japanese? Let's go the other way; Ford Taurus SHO with the body and chassis produced in the US and a Yamaha engine. American or Japanese. How you answer these might help you decide what the answer should be for the Cobra (even though it may not lead you to the conclusion you prefer ;)).

Jeff

Yes that happens, perhaps less often that it could, if not for pride and prejudice. There was also the Jensen Interceptor with the 440 Chrysler. (Chrysler needed the money)
Another anomaly, flying Cadillacs to Italy for Allante bodies. Chrysler tried that too. It did not work; who knew?
The (Canadian) Bricklin started with an AMC engine until the AMC president got a "hair" and Bricklin had to go to Ford. (AMC needed the money)
Having worked in Marine development auto engines were popular for inboards and I/Os, but getting a deal with automakers was problematic. The deal can not interfere with car production and there has to be a margin worth the effort. That was the major profit center for Mercury Marine, now customers want outboards on the transom. Trends are fickle.
The Japanese have kept pretty much to themselves for partners; now the Supra is running BMW gear. That is not popular with all traditional Toyota or BMW enthusiasts. Why did that happen? Toyota has the hydrogen engine technology. A barter deal.
jim

[Derald Rice]

Let's ask the question on some others mixed origin sporty cars...how about the Cobra's contemporaries the TVR Griffith 200/400 or the Sunbeam Tiger? Both British chassis with Ford 260 and 289 engines just like the Cobra. British or American? Come forward a bit to the Pantera; an Italian Chassis with Ford 351 Cleveland power. Italian or American? A more recent example; the Lotus Elise with British body & chassis and a Toyota powerplant. British or Japanese? Let's go the other way; Ford Taurus SHO with the body and chassis produced in the US and a Yamaha engine. American or Japanese. How you answer these might help you decide what the answer should be for the Cobra (even though it may not lead you to the conclusion you prefer ;)).

Jeff

I will suggest that the answer to the cars in your post would lie in how the US customs treated these cars,and the difference in how the AC Cobra was treated.

The AC Cobra was imported as a non-powered chassis, with the eng/trans installed in the US. Not many cars were done in this manner.

The cars in your post were imported as complete cars, with engines that had been exported to the country of origin. And cars are imported as any other import, so the country of origin is usually listed as the country where the car was assembled, no matter the source of components.

IN your examples
TVR / tiger / lotus.....British
Pantera.....................Italian
SHO Taurus................USA
Toyota FJ w/chevy......Japanese
Chrysler w/ Maserati....Italian

Using the US Customs logic,.....5 of the 6 original Daytona coupes were imports, since they were produced & assembled in England......And after they had won the world championship and were shipped back to the US, Shelby himself tried to bribe the captain of the ship that was bringing them to the US into pushing those 5 cars off the ship into the ocean so that he could avoid paying the import tax.

Obviously, the ships captain refused Shelby's request.

[J R Jones]

I will suggest that the answer to the cars in your post would lie in how the US customs treated these cars,and the difference in how the AC Cobra was treated.

The AC Cobra was imported as a non-powered chassis, with the eng/trans installed in the US. Not many cars were done in this manner.

The cars in your post were imported as complete cars, with engines that had been exported to the country of origin. And cars are imported as any other import, so the country of origin is usually listed as the country where the car was assembled, no matter the source of components.

IN your examples
TVR / tiger / lotus.....British
Pantera.....................Italian
SHO Taurus................USA
Toyota FJ w/chevy......Japanese
Chrysler w/ Maserati....Italian

Using the US Customs logic,.....5 of the 6 original Daytona coupes were imports, since they were produced & assembled in England......And after they had won the world championship and were shipped back to the US, Shelby himself tried to bribe the captain of the ship that was bringing them to the US into pushing those 5 cars off the ship into the ocean so that he could avoid paying the import tax.

Obviously, the ships captain refused Shelby's request.

I have read two different stories about the six Alan Mann world championship winning Daytona Coupes.
One was that Shelby did not want the expense of shipping them back, and told Mann to drop them in the ocean. Alan Mann paid the shipping costs himself.
Looking for documentation on that I found this on Goodwood Motornews:
As astonishing as that last paragraph may be, it turns out that the cars were lucky even to have made it back to the States. ‘The other amazing thing about them is that some of them had been sent to the UK on bond to Alan Mann Racing‘s workshop and effectively loaned to the team. When Le Mans was over Carroll didn’t really care about the cars because he was involved with the GT40 programme by then. So one day the tax men visited Alan Mann’s workshop and said “okay, we’re going to have to collect the tax on these cars. That, or they have to be out of the country in two weeks or we’re going to fine you.” So telexes went back and forth to America, but nobody was really paying any attention. Anyway the tax men came back and said “okay, we’re going to take these cars, put ’em on a barge out to the North Sea and dump the lot overboard.” Well that finally got the attention of the folks in California, but the only reason they decided to ship the cars back was because that turned out to be cheaper than having the UK government sink ’em! That’s how little value the cars had at that time. Nobody cared about them at all.’
jim

[Derald Rice]

I have also heard different stories, but...

At one of the Cobra collection open houses in Boulder, both Peter Brock and Bob Bonderaunt confirmed the story that I posted. They also said that for many years, Shelby told them that they were not supposed to talk about it.

But I had not heard to back and forth part with Alan Mann and the UK gov.

And Yes, these were worn-out last years race cars that had essentially been outlawed by new FIA rules.

They had so little value, they traveled across the Atlantic strapped to the deck.

[NC Cobra]

“It is not universally recognized that AC had parallel "Cobra" production in Great Britain, not designated Shelby Cobras.

Most current "replicas" strike me as personal interpretations of the originals. Maybe they should be recognized as (fill in the name) Cobras.”



I think the answer is that both AC and Shelby concurrently produced the Cobra from 1961 through the 1990’s. During that period both companies produced the car as well as rolling chassis without engines (IE: AC COX 6126 went to Holman Moody for a 427 install and Shelby built 50 “rollers” without engines in the 1990’s) which I would argue should be excluded from the conversation.

Seems pretty clear since that the AC cars were titled as an English auto (and subject to English homologation standards) while the Shelby’s were US registered and subject to USFMVS standards they are separate products with a common pedigree.

If we are talking about culturally who identifies with the Cobra image then the Shelby Cobra clearly has the better market recognition Stateside. In my readings the English seem to identify more closely with the Cobras predecessor, the AC Ace. Not surprising since their was significant acceptance of that car from 1958-1962. Check out this 1958 version of that car - VERY similar to the original 289 chassis in my opinion. The car on the right is a 58 Ace and the first Cobra CSX2000 on the left.

159949159948


Heres an interesting fact. From 1966-1969 Shelby built 343 of the coil spring wide fender Cobras we know and love (with 427 power) while AC only built 25 with 289 power with coil springs in the narrower fender chassis. However with the sale of AC to Brian Angliss in 1982-1990 they built an incremental 480 cars in that configuration. Factoring those cars into the production totals AC built 573 completed Cobras and Shelby built 998. Much closer than most people think.

Here is a photo of one of those cars, COX 6111 as a data point for consideration….
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/medium/87300011.JPG

Good info from Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

[mrmustang]

“It is not universally recognized that AC had parallel "Cobra" production in Great Britain, not designated Shelby Cobras.




Seems pretty clear since that the AC cars were titled as an English auto while the Shelby’s were US registered and subject to USFMVS standards they are separate products with a common pedigree.


You do realize that FFR won it's lawsuit, in part, due to the use of the AC Ace (a UK based design and product) as the basis for the Cobra, right. :D

Just saying...


Bill S.

[GTBradley]

I am on a James Bond fan group on Facebook. A recent post on that page portrayed cars people desired to be next Bond cars. Although Bond didn’t exclusively drive British cars in the movies (Flemming’s novels, Bond drove only British cars), some people listed the AC Cobra as a perfect BRITISH Bond car.

So… what’s your opinion? Do you consider the AC Cobra an American car or a British car? How do you think the “car enthusiast world” views the AC Cobra?

Try going to a car show that has only two categories - American and Exotic - with a Cobra replica. It ends up being voted for in both categories.

I say the car is an English immigrant that "married up". I would also suggest it is the perfect marriage of style and muscle. In high school I was fascinated with English styling, but so disred American muscle. it was decades before I realized FFR could supply both in the worlds most satisfying and affordable super-car.

To answer the original question though, I'd say if Shelby hadn't requested that AC redesign so much for his 427 it would be English. With the frame, body, engine mounts, etc, all changes made to-order plus assembly in California and an American engine?...well, that's American!

[NC Cobra]

Agreed. And they also went as far back as referencing the Ferrari Barchetta as a styling origin for the Ace if my memory is correct.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fandrewolson.com%2FNeil_Peart%2Faf d%2Fred-barchetta-movie.htm&psig=AOvVaw2VhJD7Gr5iOHB5jGszXMLK&ust=1641924297374000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAgQjRxqFwoTCJD-9PPip_UCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

[Dr. Manhattan]

Since we're doing personal opinions...the early AC-built, small block cars ("AC Cobras") are British cars, period. The engine doesn't matter. Does anyone seriously consider Panteras to be Fords, Bizzarrinis Chevrolets, or Jensens or Montiverdis Chryslers? Now, the later 427-powered Cobras were, more or less, "clean sheet", American-designed cars (though with an eye on the original British design...on steroids) that were built in America, so I would consider those to be American. JMO...

[ruffone]

The 289 model with its rear exiting exhaust, it’s unique shaped nose inlet, it’s non flared fenders and it’s average sized tires definitely share most of its DNA with its British cousin. Now the 427 model, its all American. It’s loud and obnoxious with its big block and it’s large exposed side exhaust, just like American hotrodders like it. We beefed up the chassis and added huge fender flares allowing us to fit the biggest stickiest tires we could get under the fenders. It was everything American racing was all about back in the day.

[mikeinatlanta]

Chassis and driveline: All the flexy floppy unreliable go slow parts are British. All the cool go fast racy parts are American.
Body: More like plastic surgery. Do you credit that body to the owner or the plastic surgeon who made it right? You like the flat fender ugly nose featureless butt of the original or the super sexy perfectly proportioned body of the 427SC? I know which one gets my vote.

[mrmustang]

Chassis and driveline: All the flexy floppy unreliable go slow parts are British. All the cool go fast racy parts are American.
Body: More like plastic surgery. Do you credit that body to the owner or the plastic surgeon who made it right? You like the flat fender ugly nose featureless butt of the original or the super sexy perfectly proportioned body of the 427SC? I know which one gets my vote.


Mike,

Come on up RT85 for a visit and I'll show you why, after 29 Cobra replicas, I abandoned the 427SC and 289FIA body style for the 289 roadster currently sitting in my garage.


Bill S.

[BrewCityCobra]

The Ace is British.

The Cobra is American.

[mikeinatlanta]

Mike,

Come on up RT85 for a visit and I'll show you why, after 29 Cobra replicas, I abandoned the 427SC and 289FIA body style for the 289 roadster currently sitting in my garage.


Bill S.

Low T? Happens to all of us with age. :)

[rich grsc]

Mike, think you nailed that one.:rolleyes:

[Jeff Kleiner]

Mike, think you nailed that one.:rolleyes:

And with that we’ve come back to Batty Miller’s comments about “full soft.”

:)

Heff

[mrmustang]

Low T? Happens to all of us with age. :)

Is that why you had to compensate with "Little Boy". 432CI all aluminum Windsor. .699 solid roller, DA Koni shocks, aluminum IRS, Straight cut dog ring T-5, 13" four piston Brembos, Bogart wheels. BOOM!"

Boom indeed :o

Bill S.

PS: All kidding aside, come on up, maybe for a C&C at Michelin

[mikeinatlanta]

Is that why you had to compensate with "Little Boy". 432CI all aluminum Windsor. .699 solid roller, DA Koni shocks, aluminum IRS, Straight cut dog ring T-5, 13" four piston Brembos, Bogart wheels. BOOM!"

Boom indeed :o

Bill S.

PS: All kidding aside, come on up, maybe for a C&C at Michelin

Absolutely, positively, YES! Anyway: Better than Fat Man.

[NiceGuyEddie]

I don't know the answer, but it would be pretty cool if James Bond drove the roadster underwater like in The Spy Who Loved Me

[J R Jones]

AC (British) built Daytona Coupe for LeMans.
jim

160551

160552

[GoDadGo]

I don't know the answer, but it would be pretty cool if James Bond drove the roadster underwater like in The Spy Who Loved Me

All I can say is:

https://youtu.be/F1lJFlB-89Q

......................Or

https://youtu.be/ShGn1aRUuEY

[Avalanche325]

There were British Cobras and American Cobras.

AC Cobras are British. Built and sold in England by AC Cars.

Shelby Cobras are technically/legally an American car. They were still mostly British as far as manufacturing goes. Some early ones were labeled as AC Shelby Cobra. 427s were more American from a design standpoint. I still think from a what is the car itself......."British with a American engine" is the only real answer.

Is a Datsun 240Z with an LS swap Japanese or American?

[J R Jones]

British or American, or Italian influenced?
Ferrari 250 GTO (1962 - 1964, 39 built) vs Daytona Coupe (1964 - 1965, 6 built US, 1 built GB)


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[mrmustang]

British or American, or Italian influenced?
Ferrari 250 GTO (1962 - 1964, 39 built) vs Daytona Coupe (1964 - 1965, 6 built US, 1 built GB)


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So, are you saying the "Perky Butt" was actually a Shelby design :D

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=161548&d=1643660848

[J R Jones]

mrmustang, "Perky Butt" has not been part of my lexicon; I'll consider it.
Brazilian Butt Lift did come to mind. "Will you be having cellulite or silicone with that?"
Actually I was distracted by the coordination of wheelbase and wheel openings. Enzo's design group "gets it".
jim