Sound/heat insulation

[nick729]

Hey,

now that i have a long wait time until delivery, I have started to do some more research and reviewing the options ordered on my Type 65.

I have ordered the FFR optional sound insulation kit, but there is very little info on what it is and how much it covers and how good it is (just a measly photo on the FFR parts shop). Anyone used it or seen it? Just looking at the picture seems like it is not that great..

I am planning on insulating all the interior panels, however, i have yet to decide what to use (looking at STP Aero line). From reading various topics on soundproofing type 65, many have stated that it is pointless you can sound proof as much as you want, but since the side-pipes are right by your door, it will make sound proofing pointless as all you hear are the side-pipes.

So the question is, should i even bother? I went with LS427 crate engine, with full carpeted interior and windows, i am going to powder coat all the panels too. I have not had any experience with sound proofing, but from my understanding to do a proper job, there are at least 2 layers of material that has to go on? Vibro mat and sound deadening.. Is there any point in doing this on type 65? Would an alternative be just to use a single layer (vibro or sound absorption), to stop the panel rattles?

Heat insulation - should i consider this too? I am planning on a black engine bay, so the heat insulation would mess with the general look of the bay... How big of an issue is it? I assume footboxes are the primary concern? Maybe sound deadening from the inside and carpets would be enough? I have also ordered A/C, which should help..

Any thoughts?

[edwardb]

Everyone agrees the Coupe is loud. No getting around that. But I completely disagree that sound insulation doesn't help. The only way to know that for sure would be two identical builds. One with and one without. Hasn't been done that I know of and is quite unlikely. You have one chance to do this. Fully insulate the interior and add the carpet. There are many products. Choose what works for you. Mine has double insulation on the firewall and footboxes (Second Skin Damplifier Pro and Dynamat Dynaliner) and Lizard Skin heat and sound spray everywhere else. Full carpet over that. I also sprayed the Lizard Skin thermal insulation product on the ceiling of the body. I have windows and it's still loud enough that earplugs are required. I can't imagine what it would be without the insulation I did use. It has an overall solid sound but the decibel level is high. I agree it's likely the sidepipes close to the body on each side are major contributors. In hindsight, I would have built up major insulation on the chassis sides on the outside in the neighborhood of the pipes before installing the main body piece. Mentioned this in my build thread. There's plenty of room. I believe this would help. I tried to stuff some insulation (Second Skin Luxury Liner Pro - Mass Loaded Vinyl (MLV) Sound Barrier) down in there after a season of driving. Maybe helped some. But installing during the build would have been much better.

Other comments: Make sure you get the firewall and footboxes completely sealed. Hot air from the engine compartment, even the smallest amount, will overcome any insulation you install. I find no reason whatsoever to install heat insulation products in the engine compartment. If you insulate the interior and pay attention to the details on the inside. Doesn't look great (my opinion) and there often isn't a lot of space. We've driven ours 4,000+ miles and never a hint of heat from the engine. Make sure to insulate the complete interior including the hatch area. Sound echoes around the whole interior including from back there. Powder coating looks nice (I do it 100%) but doubt it helps with sound or heat. Panels don't rattle. With or without insulation. I hear/see this comment all the time. If installed per the directions (proper number of rivets + adhesive) no way they rattle.

Good luck with your build. It's an awesome car to own and drive. We love ours.

[CB_83]

Speaking as a non-FFR owner (yet), but with experience in numerous very loud hi-performance vehicles, I agree with edwardb; any insulation or deadening you can add will help and in my opinion given the amount of effort, time, and money you'll be spending, would be totally worth it, as those things will be difficult if not impossible to add properly later.

Also you may want to think about the side pipes themselves as they are the single largest contributor to overall noise amplitude. One of the aftermarket "quiet pipes" could be worth a look.
It's always been my general experience with any issue/problem to try and minimize the primary source first as much as possible, then move to the secondary/supporting solutions.

[edwardb]

Also you may want to think about the side pipes themselves as they are the single largest contributor to overall noise amplitude. One of the aftermarket "quiet pipes" could be worth a look.
It's always been my general experience with any issue/problem to try and minimize the primary source first as much as possible, then move to the secondary/supporting solutions.

Totally agree. Side pipes make a huge difference. I never planned to use the original plain steel pipes that came with my kit. They were often described as "NASCAR loud" and never considered using them. Factory Five has since upgraded the Gen 3 Coupe pipes to polished SS with a ball/socket connection at the header. No question a huge improvement in appearance and installation. Have no idea if they're quieter. I chose to use Gas-N pipes on mine. I don't have anything to directly compare them to. But my impression is they're similar to the Roadster pipes, e.g. not necessarily quieter from a decibel perspective compared to stock pipes. But a much mellower sound. Plus they look awesome. I'm very happy with them. Boig makes a header/pipe setup for the Gen 3 Coupe that I understand is much quieter. I didn't consider that because the twin-pipe look of the Coupe was important to me. The Boig pipes are a single larger muffler. I've seen several builders make their own pipes to quiet things down. Again though, typically a single muffler. Or there's the Erik Treves sound approach -- install twin turbos and block that excessive noise.

Mine with Gas-N pipes.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ab234/edwardb123/Coupe_Cropped.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds (https://app.photobucket.com/u/edwardb123/a/186cc666-68d0-4881-b53c-af005ffe3552/p/22784f44-8bd5-4588-bfef-1fd022fb7fa4)

[slarson]

I am in the same position, my coupe delivery is scheduled for June. I also plan on doing significant insulation and sound deadening. I'm ok with the added weight as long as there is a benefit in comfort.
I have thought about adding something to door skins to reduce vibrations and sound from the exhaust that is transmitted though the door.
Also plan on doing significant insulation to the roof, mainly to combat the Florida heat!

[nick729]

In hindsight, I would have built up major insulation on the chassis sides on the outside in the neighborhood of the pipes before installing the main body piece. Mentioned this in my build thread. There's plenty of room.

Just to clarify, you mean you would have insulated outside as well as inside if you were doing it again? I have read about this in a few other threads, were it was mentioned that extra insulation in on the outside near the pipes is a good idea.



I find no reason whatsoever to install heat insulation products in the engine compartment. If you insulate the interior and pay attention to the details on the inside. Doesn't look great (my opinion) and there often isn't a lot of space.

This is exactly what i was thinking, but purely from aesthetics perspective. If the insulation of engine compartment is unnecessary or the benefit is arbitrary, I would much rather keep it without any insulation :)


We've driven ours 4,000+ miles and never a hint of heat from the engine. Make sure to insulate the complete interior including the hatch area. Sound echoes around the whole interior including from back there.

This is the plan, insulate everything, including the hatch area, wheel arches and maybe the hood (but not too sure if there is any point in lining the hood with it...)


Powder coating looks nice (I do it 100%) but doubt it helps with sound or heat. Panels don't rattle. With or without insulation. I hear/see this comment all the time. If installed per the directions (proper number of rivets + adhesive) no way they rattle.

Yes, all the panels will get powder coated, but that is purely for aesthetics. On my last kit car, although all the panels were riveted properly (at least i would like to think so) and with silicone, the larger panel which was just next to the side pipe, would resonate for some reason.. :)


Good luck with your build. It's an awesome car to own and drive. We love ours.

With a build like yours, it would be very hard not to love it :D


Also you may want to think about the side pipes themselves as they are the single largest contributor to overall noise amplitude. One of the aftermarket "quiet pipes" could be worth a look.

At the moment i have no plans for quieter pipes, seeing as it is a car that will only be used occasionally i want it to be loud and raw, but at the same time well built :)

Any info on the FFR supplied sound insulation? Should i just skip it and go with my own choice of mats?

[nick729]

I am currently looking into STP product line, as it is something i can source locally and seems to be a great product line:

Interior (everything that has aluminum panels, including hatch area, footboxes etc.): STP Aero -> STP Accent -> STP NoiseBlock
Doors: STP Aero ->STP Accent -> STP Biplast
Roof: STP Aero -> STP Biplast
Wheel Arches: have no clue of what to do here, so i will have to research a bit more, I assume most of the builders just use spray on truck bed liner materials and such?

STP Aero - 2,3mm, lightweight vibro damping
STP Accent - 10 mm, heat insulating vibration damping
STP Biplast - 25mm, sound-absorbing, vibro-damping, heat-insulating and anti-squeak
STP NoiseBlock - 3mm, sound insulation

Should i be worried about the thickness? Interior panels will end up having 15+mm of insulating material. Roof is even worse 27+mm insulation (I assume there will be clearance issues on the roll bar..?)
Should the top of the trans tunnel be insulated or not?

[edwardb]

Just to clarify, you mean you would have insulated outside as well as inside if you were doing it again? I have read about this in a few other threads, were it was mentioned that extra insulation in on the outside near the pipes is a good idea.

This is the area I recommend adding insulation on the outside. The frame area below the door sills. I'd fill with multiple layers. As I said before, there are no clearance issues there. The body with the cavity for the side pipes sits right outside this area. Would have to help. There's some open space in front of that frame. Insulation would hurt there either on the outside. But the body and firewall cut in at some point. So you would need to measure and locate accordingly. Both of these areas are where I pushed in insulation after my build was complete. Talked about in this post. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26630-Edwardb%92s-Gen-3-Type-65-Coyote-Coupe-59-Build-Complete-and-Graduated&p=438286&viewfull=1#post438286. I also put a layer of Damplifier Pro on the inside of the doors. I'd recommend doing that too.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83430&d=1522679890

From your other comments, I personally see no advantage to insulation on the hood. I cleaned mine up and sprayed truck bed liner on it so it looks decent. But nothing beyond that. I've seen some builds that put a finish under there as good as the other side. Nice. But has to make it heavy. Insulation might do the same. It's already kind of a handful.

[David Williamson]

On my Coupe I did add sound insulation in the area under the door, mybe it helps but the car is still loud even with the Boig "quiet pipes" The sound in the Coupe is very different from the Roadster. In the Roadster most of the sound is road and wind noise and in the Coupe is a low frequency rumble from the exhaust. My cars do have very different engines and that could be part of the difference. The old Mkll has a mildly build up 93 mustang engine with stock FFR sidee pipes and the Coupe has a Levy Dart 363.
David W

[Indy Shu]

Any info on the FFR supplied sound insulation? Should i just skip it and go with my own choice of mats?

I’ve got the insulation option (in the box). When I get back home next week I’ll take some pics of what was sent and post here. I think the pieces pretty much mirror the carpet pieces in the cockpit. I don’t believe the rear hatch area is included.

[David Williamson]

I also had the hatch glass tinted to help reduce the heat from the sun.
David W

[nick729]

I’ve got the insulation option (in the box). When I get back home next week I’ll take some pics of what was sent and post here. I think the pieces pretty much mirror the carpet pieces in the cockpit. I don’t believe the rear hatch area is included.

Much appreciated!

[Indy Shu]

Here are pictures of the sound dampening (?) pieces as received from Factory Five. Peel off brown paper and stick on. Butyl type material with reflective foil similar to Fatmat or Dynamat. Thin but heavy. I'm not sure yet what I have. Numbered as high as 42, but only 23 pieces. Am I missing 19 pieces? When F5 gets back to me I'll ask if they have a layout like for the carpet.

160005160006160007160008
160009

And here are pictures of the sound proofing (?). Very lightweight foam material about 1/4" thick, also peel and stick. Only 17 pieces.
The numbering systems don't match each other or the carpet.

160010160011160012160013160014

I'll let you know when I get more details.

[Rsnake]

I am going to chime in since I am on my third exhaust build for the coupe and have driven it pre and post insulation. I have the newer style ball collector and I think it's much improved over the older style as far as flow goes, really smooth transitions. I drove the car with minimal insulation for the first 1000 miles and it is crazy loud. In 2nd gear on the throttle I measured 114 DB in the car, you read that right, 114 DB with a fluke DB meter. I was driving down the highway this Saturday with another forum member in his coupe and in 4th gear I passed him on the highway at full throttle and he said" I could feel that in my spine and am wearing ear plugs". I pulled that exhaust off and it will never go back on the car. The FF supplied exhaust has 2.25 inch pipes with the 3 inch glasspack which are also short so not much to dampen the sound, basically a straight pipe. I did build a quiet exhaust for my track days at Laguna Seca and it did pass the 90db limit but I did short shift and lift past the sounds booth. It turns the car into a daily driver with no ear plugs except for the noisy tires BFG rivals and they make a lot of noise on rougher roads.
You can check out the video on youtube for the quiet exhaust build at Cobra Daytona Build, it's video 133. As for the insulation, I did insulate the area above the exhaust with 2 sheets of carbon fiber honeycomb and dynamat type material in between. I also added a jute type material throughout the car and all these things helped but still hearing damage loud. Changing the exhaust was the best thing by far, nothing else comes close. My new exhaust I am building will be a roadster type exhaust but with a longer glasspack, probably 36 or 41 inch which should fill the exhaust area well and not look as bad as my quiet exhaust. The third exhaust should have a deeper and quieter tone compared to the roadster since I am adding length and not be anywhere as loud as the FF twin pipes.

[JohnMac]

We’re into the 2nd year of building a gen2 coupe. We never thought it was ever going to be used as either a daily driver or weekend pleasure car. My partner in crime is an old racer, SCCA, IMSA and TransAM winner. Both of us needed something to do to keep up occupied during these crazy days of old age- I just turned 76 and George will be 90 in April. With that being said, we’ve been building the car with no finish in sight.

By the beginning of last year’s spring/summer season we had the body on. The first outing was to a hot rod event in Chesapeake City MD, about 30 miles away. The only insulation on the car was on the outside of the foot boxes near the headers. I’d yet to install any of the aluminum panels to isolate the engine compartment because finishing and painting the body still hadn’t (and hasn’t) been done yet.

We completely skipped the “go kart” test phase and made it to the show without incident- no leaks, brakes work and the AC is all but unless.
To be honest, we played around with fitting the window frames and finally put them back in the box as we figured we’d never be driving the car in the cold or rain. The AC components were all installed but no ductwork fitted- I call it a “total loss” system. The VintageAir air handler blower pulls air in from it’s location under the passenger dash and tries to distribute it via 5 outlets. The cfm is barely enough to blow out a birthday candle! Anyway, the drive down and back was uneventful. We did get stuck in the inevitable I95 Sunday afternoon traffic jam as President Biden’s security crew had Operation “JoeJam” in place as they drove him to the airport.

Our next outing was to drive the car to the annual Coatesville Pa GrandPrix in September, another 25 mile run through the Chester County country side. Again, uneventful other then blowing the lower radiator hose due to a loose hose clamp!

So, here are my thoughts: too loud and too hot! The car’s now back in the shop and George has completely redesigned the exhaust system south or the headers. We no longer have 2 side pipes per side having replaced them with a muffler and heat shield. Not really sure how much quieter it’ll be but it looks nice! As for heat and sound insulation, once we take the body off for painting I’ll get around to attaching the rest of the aluminum panels and installing insulation. BTW, the precut panels supplied by FF5 don’t come close to sealing the body from outside heat, water or sound. There are so many gapping holes… I keep looking for solutions on the forums.

Onward and upward,
Mac Morgan and George Alderman
Menopause Racing Team

[edwardb]

We’re into the 2nd year of building a gen2 coupe. We never thought it was ever going to be used as either a daily driver or weekend pleasure car. My partner in crime is an old racer, SCCA, IMSA and TransAM winner. Both of us needed something to do to keep up occupied during these crazy days of old age- I just turned 76 and George will be 90 in April. With that being said, we’ve been building the car with no finish in sight.

By the beginning of last year’s spring/summer season we had the body on. The first outing was to a hot rod event in Chesapeake City MD, about 30 miles away. The only insulation on the car was on the outside of the foot boxes near the headers. I’d yet to install any of the aluminum panels to isolate the engine compartment because finishing and painting the body still hadn’t (and hasn’t) been done yet.

We completely skipped the “go kart” test phase and made it to the show without incident- no leaks, brakes work and the AC is all but unless.
To be honest, we played around with fitting the window frames and finally put them back in the box as we figured we’d never be driving the car in the cold or rain. The AC components were all installed but no ductwork fitted- I call it a “total loss” system. The VintageAir air handler blower pulls air in from it’s location under the passenger dash and tries to distribute it via 5 outlets. The cfm is barely enough to blow out a birthday candle! Anyway, the drive down and back was uneventful. We did get stuck in the inevitable I95 Sunday afternoon traffic jam as President Biden’s security crew had Operation “JoeJam” in place as they drove him to the airport.

Our next outing was to drive the car to the annual Coatesville Pa GrandPrix in September, another 25 mile run through the Chester County country side. Again, uneventful other then blowing the lower radiator hose due to a loose hose clamp!

So, here are my thoughts: too loud and too hot! The car’s now back in the shop and George has completely redesigned the exhaust system south or the headers. We no longer have 2 side pipes per side having replaced them with a muffler and heat shield. Not really sure how much quieter it’ll be but it looks nice! As for heat and sound insulation, once we take the body off for painting I’ll get around to attaching the rest of the aluminum panels and installing insulation. BTW, the precut panels supplied by FF5 don’t come close to sealing the body from outside heat, water or sound. There are so many gapping holes… I keep looking for solutions on the forums.

Onward and upward,
Mac Morgan and George Alderman
Menopause Racing Team

Congrats to the two of you making the Coupe a project. Couple of responses. I assume you know the OP is asking about a future delivery. So that's going to be a Gen 3 Coupe which is very different from your Gen 2. Different frame, different panels, different body, etc. Curious about your comments about the aluminum panels not fitting well. I don't have any experience with the Gen 2. But the Gen 3 I built had very good fitting panels. Very little additional sealing was needed. Little hard to judge too much about sound if you're running with panels missing, no insulation, and open windows. That has to be loud! Exhaust is definitely the number one culprit. So the custom exhaust you're describing should help. Good luck with that. Interested in your comment about the Vintage Air A/C. I've done two aftermarket A/C installations, and both just drew air from inside. Nothing in the instructions or equipment to have it draw from outside. This was a discussion during my Coupe build. Many said I'd have trouble with fogged up windows, etc. since it would always be recirculating. Two driving seasons and 4,000+ miles and hasn't happened. These cars aren't sealed up like a production car. Especially the doors and windows. Just don't think it's an issue. Not sure why you're not getting more air out of your Vintage Air setup. I have one in my truck build and it blows a bunch of air. Maybe something wrong with the controller or wiring that the fan speed isn't fully on? They have three speeds.

[jdm65]

Here are pictures of the sound dampening (?) pieces as received from Factory Five. Peel off brown paper and stick on. Butyl type material with reflective foil similar to Fatmat or Dynamat. Thin but heavy. I'm not sure yet what I have. Numbered as high as 42, but only 23 pieces. Am I missing 19 pieces? When F5 gets back to me I'll ask if they have a layout like for the carpet.

160005160006160007160008
160009

And here are pictures of the sound proofing (?). Very lightweight foam material about 1/4" thick, also peel and stick. Only 17 pieces.
The numbering systems don't match each other or the carpet.

160010160011160012160013160014

I'll let you know when I get more details.

Was this a recent addition to the Gen 3 order form? I didn't have the option of ordering this when I ordered in November 2020

[Indy Shu]

Was this a recent addition to the Gen 3 order form? I didn't have the option of ordering this when I ordered in November 2020

Yes, sometime in the last year. It is listed on the order form and in the parts catalog.

[jdm65]

Yes, sometime in the last year. It is listed on the order form and in the parts catalog.

Ah. Definitely wish that was available when I ordered haha. I wanted to do the same with a layer of Dynamat style material and then some mass-loaded vinyl for sound. Wonder if they'll provide the cutfiles for them.

Thanks for the answer!

[LateApex]

I am going to chime in since I am on my third exhaust build for the coupe and have driven it pre and post insulation. I have the newer style ball collector and I think it's much improved over the older style as far as flow goes, really smooth transitions. I drove the car with minimal insulation for the first 1000 miles and it is crazy loud. In 2nd gear on the throttle I measured 114 DB in the car, you read that right, 114 DB with a fluke DB meter. I was driving down the highway this Saturday with another forum member in his coupe and in 4th gear I passed him on the highway at full throttle and he said" I could feel that in my spine and am wearing ear plugs". I pulled that exhaust off and it will never go back on the car. The FF supplied exhaust has 2.25 inch pipes with the 3 inch glasspack which are also short so not much to dampen the sound, basically a straight pipe. I did build a quiet exhaust for my track days at Laguna Seca and it did pass the 90db limit but I did short shift and lift past the sounds booth. It turns the car into a daily driver with no ear plugs except for the noisy tires BFG rivals and they make a lot of noise on rougher roads.
You can check out the video on youtube for the quiet exhaust build at Cobra Daytona Build, it's video 133. As for the insulation, I did insulate the area above the exhaust with 2 sheets of carbon fiber honeycomb and dynamat type material in between. I also added a jute type material throughout the car and all these things helped but still hearing damage loud. Changing the exhaust was the best thing by far, nothing else comes close. My new exhaust I am building will be a roadster type exhaust but with a longer glasspack, probably 36 or 41 inch which should fill the exhaust area well and not look as bad as my quiet exhaust. The third exhaust should have a deeper and quieter tone compared to the roadster since I am adding length and not be anywhere as loud as the FF twin pipes.

Would love to hear a bit more about the mods you made to your exhaust, or see some photos. Thanx for your comments!

My intent is to try to stick to the twin pipe design, but am also trying to not aggravate the tinnitus I already have :-)

[Rsnake]

Lateapex, funny you should mention tinnitus. I have spent too much of my life around planes and guns and the tinnitus can be difficult. After driving the coupe on Saturday with the FF exhaust, the tinnitus flared up and I will never put the FF exhaust back on the car. Go to my YouTube site, cobra Daytona build and check out video 133 for a detailed video.
For photos go to my Instagram at hmbdaytona and I have some photos from Laguna secs with the quiet exhaust on the car.
Protect your hearing at all costs.

[JohnMac]

At 76 my tinnitus probably started with my riding motorcycles in the 60s (always with a open face Bell helmet but no ear protection) and a 4 yr stint in the Army artillery FDC on the mighty M107 175mm guns. I started getting a steady “electric” buzzing, some tonal notes and what sounds like cicadas! From the lates 70s till the mid 80s I did a lot of road racing to include a couple 24hr events almost always using ear protection. But the tinnitus has not faded. My first outing in our gen2 coupe- stock FF5 exhaust, 351W/427 Ford Performance built engine had me using foam ear protection, it’s a must. We’ve modified the system using a rather large 5” diameter “muffler” which hasn’t really quieted things down much… but a Daytona Coupe should be heard as well as seen! These days I get a $143.00 disability check from the VA for tinnitus but no hearing aids which I’ve tried. I’d love to see a legitimate cure for the problem but it’s kinda like toe fungus- lots of cures but nothing that really works. If anybody hears of a fix I’d love to hear about it. I guess it’s a good idea we didn’t put a sound system in the coupe!

[FracAG1980]

At 76 my tinnitus probably started with my riding motorcycles in the 60s (always with a open face Bell helmet but no ear protection) and a 4 yr stint in the Army artillery FDC on the mighty M107 175mm guns. I started getting a steady “electric” buzzing, some tonal notes and what sounds like cicadas! From the lates 70s till the mid 80s I did a lot of road racing to include a couple 24hr events almost always using ear protection. But the tinnitus has not faded. My first outing in our gen2 coupe- stock FF5 exhaust, 351W/427 Ford Performance built engine had me using foam ear protection, it’s a must. We’ve modified the system using a rather large 5” diameter “muffler” which hasn’t really quieted things down much… but a Daytona Coupe should be heard as well as seen! These days I get a $143.00 disability check from the VA for tinnitus but no hearing aids which I’ve tried. I’d love to see a legitimate cure for the problem but it’s kinda like toe fungus- lots of cures but nothing that really works. If anybody hears of a fix I’d love to hear about it. I guess it’s a good idea we didn’t put a sound system in the coupe!

I have tinnitus as well. It started about 20 years ago (I am 63) but went away for about 10 years, I know not why. Over the last year it has become worse (I hear cicadas most of the time) so I went to have my ears checked. I have typical hearing loss for the elder male (high frequency loss in both ears, the left more than the right). The Doctor told me there is no cure because the sound you are hearing is manufactured by the brain. The part of the brain that processes the sound impulses from your ear is expecting high frequency sounds and when it receives none it can make up its own. That is tinnitus. Oddly, it does not seem to prevent me from hearing a pin drop, but it does interfere when in a conversation with someone in a setting with a lot of random ambient noise. He indicated that there were hearing aids that worked like an equalizer and would increase the high frequency sounds and in some cases (not all) this has reduced tinnitus. They are very expensive though.

Anyway, just thought I'd share what my doctor shared.

FracAG1980 (steve)

[UpNorth]

I read that around 50 millions suffer from tinnitus on North America. Just wondering if there are serious research done on this? I would be ready to chip in! Been having it since teenage.

[LateApex]

I have tinnitus as well. It started about 20 years ago (I am 63) but went away for about 10 years, I know not why. Over the last year it has become worse (I hear cicadas most of the time) so I went to have my ears checked. I have typical hearing loss for the elder male (high frequency loss in both ears, the left more than the right). The Doctor told me there is no cure because the sound you are hearing is manufactured by the brain. The part of the brain that processes the sound impulses from your ear is expecting high frequency sounds and when it receives none it can make up its own. That is tinnitus. Oddly, it does not seem to prevent me from hearing a pin drop, but it does interfere when in a conversation with someone in a setting with a lot of random ambient noise. He indicated that there were hearing aids that worked like an equalizer and would increase the high frequency sounds and in some cases (not all) this has reduced tinnitus. They are very expensive though.

Anyway, just thought I'd share what my doctor shared.

FracAG1980 (steve)

I think you have the right info. I spent about 3 years trying to develop a hearing aid app for smart phones, which was quite interesting and challenging. Tinnitus is indeed manufactured by the brain in response to hearing loss of certain frequencies. In theory, I think the brain can retrain over time and tinnitus can be reduced if you use good hearing aids (i.e.: with an equalizer function, not just an amplifier). Kinda like EFI :-)

Hearing loss can be pretty complicated in terms of how it varies from person to person. Think about words that start with a "T". Like "The", which has a "soft T", versus "Treat" or "Tea", which has a hard "T". The "attack" of the hard T, which is similar to a snap of a twig, is something fully functional ears are armed to hear - that twig snapping may have been a predator when humans were gathering roots and berries way back when. That arming process is what ears do when it is silent. With tinnitus, there is no silence. So we don't hear certain words (or phonemes) well. It is not clear to me that any hearing aid can help, at least in the short term.

Probably in the category of TMI. Net is protect your ears. Kinda wish I had figured some of this stuff out 40 years ago ...

[LateApex]

Does anyone have a recommendation for an off-the-shelf stainless steel band clamp that works to reliably reattach a turnout, and which also doesn't look like a kludge?

[egchewy79]

getting off the reservation a bit, but as a practicing ENT doc for over a decade I've seen plenty of pts w/ tinnitus. Yes, it is thought to be a central (brain) problem, usually associated with hearing loss, but sometimes unknown source. There is usually nothing to do that "fixes" this and can be quite debilitating for many. For many, the hearing loss is age related, but genetics and cumulative lifetime noise exposure contributes. Of the 3 factors, noise exposure is the only thing you can do to prevent tinnitus. I do encourage all my pts to wear hearing protection even when doing yard work, using power tools and lawn equipment. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Tinnitus maskers and background ambient noise is usually the main forms of treatment, distracting your brain to focus on a different sound other than the pitch of your tinnitus. Over the counter and internet supplements for tinnitus are not shown to be any more effective than placebo (sugar pills) in randomized controlled studies. Tons of research out there but sadly no real solution. Bose makes sleep ear buds that some use at night to provide some white noise.
Bottom line is to be mindful of noise exposures. I've been wearing ear plugs for my yardwork since I've been a homeowner in my mid 20s and plan on wearing them when driving my MK4.

[Discount Brain Surgery]

I have been pondering this same issue. What to do for heat and noise insulation. I think i'm going to...

- Lizard skin ceramic in engine bay, down the driveline, and maybe down the sidepipe areas
- I ordered the FFR sound kit. I may supplement that in places with lizard skin acoustic
- in larger body cavities, I ordered Kaowool. It is 1 inch thick and comes in a 25ft roll. I think it could be interesting to stuff this behind the pipes, and in other cavities that have heat exposure. I'll play around with it this summer.

https://www.amazon.com/Lynn-Manufacturing-Kaowool-Insulation-Fireproof/dp/B07ZQPC43B/ref=asc_df_B07ZQPC43B?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80608037914444&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584207584062789&th=1

[edwardb]

I have been pondering this same issue. What to do for heat and noise insulation. I think i'm going to...

- Lizard skin ceramic in engine bay, down the driveline, and maybe down the sidepipe areas
- I ordered the FFR sound kit. I may supplement that in places with lizard skin acoustic
- in larger body cavities, I ordered Kaowool. It is 1 inch thick and comes in a 25ft roll. I think it could be interesting to stuff this behind the pipes, and in other cavities that have heat exposure. I'll play around with it this summer.

https://www.amazon.com/Lynn-Manufacturing-Kaowool-Insulation-Fireproof/dp/B07ZQPC43B/ref=asc_df_B07ZQPC43B?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80608037914444&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584207584062789&th=1

Couple comments FWIW. I've used Lizard Skin on multiple builds. I like it a lot for what it's intended to do, e.g. sound and heat control. But personally I wouldn't confuse it with an undercoat material. It's a latex product and while reasonably strong, I've always used it with something on top of it. Like carpet. Left exposed in an engine compartment or underneath, it's going to get dirty and stained and will be difficult to clean. It also doesn't go on particularly smooth. I've played with a lot of settings with their gun and nothing helps. Doesn't matter under carpet. Wouldn't be the best if left exposed. Lizard Skin does sell a rattle can topcoat product if you still go that way. Have tried it too. OK I guess. But just a pretty generic spray-on undercoat product IMO. That Kaowool product appears to be only a heat insulator. Not for sound. For the Coupe (subject of this thread) I've had zero issues with heat from the side pipes when the interior is reasonably insulated. It's the sound you're going after. I'd recommend something that's for that purpose.

[Discount Brain Surgery]

Couple comments FWIW. I've used Lizard Skin on multiple builds. I like it a lot for what it's intended to do, e.g. sound and heat control. But personally I wouldn't confuse it with an undercoat material. It's a latex product and while reasonably strong, I've always used it with something on top of it. Like carpet. Left exposed in an engine compartment or underneath, it's going to get dirty and stained and will be difficult to clean. It also doesn't go on particularly smooth. I've played with a lot of settings with their gun and nothing helps. Doesn't matter under carpet. Wouldn't be the best if left exposed. Lizard Skin does sell a rattle can topcoat product if you still go that way. Have tried it too. OK I guess. But just a pretty generic spray-on undercoat product IMO. That Kaowool product appears to be only a heat insulator. Not for sound. For the Coupe (subject of this thread) I've had zero issues with heat from the side pipes when the interior is reasonably insulated. It's the sound you're going after. I'd recommend something that's for that purpose.

Thanks for the feedback. Agree that LS is not a great underbody. I would think those panels best served by bed-liner or powder paint. On the trans/drive tunnel, i would spray the interior side. As to Kaowool, I am going to tinker around with it. It may, or may not, prove useful.

Have a great weekend.

[JohnMac]

Some very interesting responses to the tinnitus issue. I have a feeling that I’m probably going to die with it… whenever that is. I know the exhaust on our coupe didn’t cause it and using ear protection certainly helps.

[nick729]

Here are pictures of the sound dampening (?) pieces as received from Factory Five. Peel off brown paper and stick on. Butyl type material with reflective foil similar to Fatmat or Dynamat. Thin but heavy. I'm not sure yet what I have. Numbered as high as 42, but only 23 pieces. Am I missing 19 pieces? When F5 gets back to me I'll ask if they have a layout like for the carpet.

And here are pictures of the sound proofing (?). Very lightweight foam material about 1/4" thick, also peel and stick. Only 17 pieces.
The numbering systems don't match each other or the carpet.



Thank you so much! This makes a lot more sense than the picture FFR have in their online shop, as it shows only a couple of pieces :)

[nick729]

I am going to chime in since I am on my third exhaust build for the coupe and have driven it pre and post insulation. I have the newer style ball collector and I think it's much improved over the older style as far as flow goes, really smooth transitions. I drove the car with minimal insulation for the first 1000 miles and it is crazy loud. In 2nd gear on the throttle I measured 114 DB in the car, you read that right, 114 DB with a fluke DB meter. I was driving down the highway this Saturday with another forum member in his coupe and in 4th gear I passed him on the highway at full throttle and he said" I could feel that in my spine and am wearing ear plugs". I pulled that exhaust off and it will never go back on the car. The FF supplied exhaust has 2.25 inch pipes with the 3 inch glasspack which are also short so not much to dampen the sound, basically a straight pipe. I did build a quiet exhaust for my track days at Laguna Seca and it did pass the 90db limit but I did short shift and lift past the sounds booth. It turns the car into a daily driver with no ear plugs except for the noisy tires BFG rivals and they make a lot of noise on rougher roads.
You can check out the video on youtube for the quiet exhaust build at Cobra Daytona Build, it's video 133. As for the insulation, I did insulate the area above the exhaust with 2 sheets of carbon fiber honeycomb and dynamat type material in between. I also added a jute type material throughout the car and all these things helped but still hearing damage loud. Changing the exhaust was the best thing by far, nothing else comes close. My new exhaust I am building will be a roadster type exhaust but with a longer glasspack, probably 36 or 41 inch which should fill the exhaust area well and not look as bad as my quiet exhaust. The third exhaust should have a deeper and quieter tone compared to the roadster since I am adding length and not be anywhere as loud as the FF twin pipes.

Thank you for your input! I have watched all your videos before ordering my kit! Very informative and useful videos - great work and very nice build :)

I am not too worried about the car being loud, i don't intend to drive it that much, but this that might change once i hear the car in person.

[nick729]

Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions!

I have since decided, to fly over to the US (if covid does not ruin this plan) and pay a visit to the FFR shop. See some cars in person, talk to the techs and hopefully i will have all my questions answered so that i can be sure on the final spec of the car.

I am planning on flying in to NC Charlotte some time in mid May for a week and then fly over to MA Wareham for a few days just for the factory visit. Anyone with type 65 that lives close to FFR interested in dinner/lunch, since i won't have much else to do there for those few days :)

[TheMole]

Another direction could be to get a setup from Rugged Radios like Tommy Fulbright did. Yeah, you have to wear headsets but supposedly it helps with the noise and makes for a much better communications (no yelling to talk to your co-pilot) and music listening experience. You can check it out at Fulbrightmotorsports.com. I personally love the Gas-N dual side pipes and want to keep the look.