Thoughts on the 818 Body War.

[Draco-REX]

"Body War" is too strong, but it sounds good. :) There's no sniping between the camps and people are keeping things mature which is great. But there are definitely camps formed here on the forums.

I am firmly in the RodneyO camp. I'll get that out of the way.

I think a lot of this comes down to what people consider a HoF design. To some, myself included, a brash, shocking design is what sets our hair on fire. We want something bold that grabs attention forcefully. HoF means grabbing the eye and making it bounce around from one design element to another, each one eliciting a reaction while forming a whole that the eye just can't look away from. When our hair ignites, we want an explosion and nothing less will do.

To others, hair ignition is about a sweeping fire; like igniting gas along a concrete floor and watching it smoothly slide along the surface until everything is in blue and yellow flame. They want a car that coaxes the eye, leading it over smooth curves and design elements that flow gracefully from nose to tail; classic curves that might have graced the drawing board of some of the Italian masters. The reaction to the design should be a swelling crescendo that leaves the viewer speechless.

Both opinions are valid. But they are mutually exclusive. Even the Aston Martin DBS, one of the most successful designs at trying to appeal to both, ends up being a compromise. (Granted it's an incredible looking compromise, but it's still a compromise.) So ultimately, there is no one design that will win the hearts of everyone. I don't think the chosen design will win the hearts of much more than half.

That is the mountain that Dave has made for himself. And I don't envy him this decision.

Now if only we could get an 818 template in front of Adrian Newey... *head explodes*

[kach22i]

You cannot set your hair on fire with something half-baked. Right now that is where we are at.

Better photos of the models, 3D views of all the hot cars being talked about are needed before I'll get too hot over anything.

EDIT - 11/17/11:
What I meant to say is the process of presenting the models is half-baked or half-way completed at best. We need those lowered viewing angles before I rush to judgement and allow myself to be excited.

[keys2heaven]

It all comes down to money! I think Dave mentioned than when talking about funds to develop a larger model of Rodney's design.

To be honest, I'm a little worried when Dave indicated that he will protect his team and make the final decision. Couple that with the fact that it appears most of the development has been on Jim's design. Should I dare read between the lines on this? I don't want to, but with time and funds being a limiting factor, then maybe they're going to throw more effort into refining Jim's design for the first body style? I'm purely speculating on this.

Even though members on this forum have overwhelmingly voted for Rodney's v 2.0 design as a favorite, we're still a very small subset of the "world" market that this vehicle is for.

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, HoF means different things to different people. Yes, you can't please everyone with a single design. Fortuantely Dave already has that addressed, there will be a minimum of 3 designs built.

I am still in the Xabier camp. But I do like some of the other designs. The Napalm Orange Rodney design has taken me from hate it to love it. I also like the Vman and SW1 a lot. The only designs I do not like are the Nouphone and FFR.

One thing I notice about many who like the Rodney design, is as much about setting other peoples HoF as it is your own. Onlookers, people you just wizzed passed, etc. That is cool, not knocking that. But to me, HoF is just about the temperature of my own scalp.

[DrieStone]

To be honest, I'm a little worried when Dave indicated that he will protect his team and make the final decision. Couple that with the fact that it appears most of the development has been on Jim's design. Should I dare read between the lines on this? I don't want to, but with time and funds being a limiting factor, then maybe they're going to throw more effort into refining Jim's design for the first body style? I'm purely speculating on this.

I respect the hell out of Jim and the FFR team. There's no doubt that Jim has a much better handle on what is possible being deeply involved in the actual process. God knows I'm in a creative job and I have a lot of experience doing what I do. I feel like projects can suffer when a client make suggestions that I feel are contrary to what make the best product. I'll also admit that more often than not some outside influence can improve a project.

That said, I too have felt that there is a heavy bias towards Jim's design even though the small vocal minority here on the form prefer that design. I'm sure it's the most "produceable" design, and it's certainly safe (and it's not a bad looking design if you didn't have the competition).

You know the down-side to the design competition is that there will be a host of people that look at whatever the 818 becomes and say "That's not bad, but XXX would have been better." I know I'm in that boat, if Jim's (current) design becomes the 818 I'll be sad to think of all the possibilities that are out there and FFR played it safe.

[Steve91T]

I know there are also people on here, like me, who's buying one no matter what it looks like. Things tend to look at lot better when they pass cars on the track that cost 10 times as much. :)

I want it to look awesome though. I still think that once they finish tweaking Jim's design, it'll look a lot better.

[Niburu]

I think scantly clad female models laying all over the car in suggestive poses might help me make a decision......just sayin'

[keys2heaven]

I respect the hell out of Jim and the FFR team. There's no doubt that Jim has a much better handle on what is possible being deeply involved in the actual process. God knows I'm in a creative job and I have a lot of experience doing what I do. I feel like projects can suffer when a client make suggestions that I feel are contrary to what make the best product. I'll also admit that more often than not some outside influence can improve a project.

That said, I too have felt that there is a heavy bias towards Jim's design even though the small vocal minority here on the form prefer that design. I'm sure it's the most "produceable" design, and it's certainly safe (and it's not a bad looking design if you didn't have the competition).

You know the down-side to the design competition is that there will be a host of people that look at whatever the 818 becomes and say "That's not bad, but XXX would have been better." I know I'm in that boat, if Jim's (current) design becomes the 818 I'll be sad to think of all the possibilities that are out there and FFR played it safe.

No matter how I try to say this, it sounds like I'm bashing. I'm really not. I respect FF just as much as you do, just trying to understand where this is heading from some of Dave's recent posts.

But, I can't say I will buy one no matter what it looks like. To me, that is a HUGE reason why I would make this purchase.

[DrieStone]

No matter how I try to say this, it sounds like I'm bashing. I'm really not. I respect FF just as much as you do, just trying to understand where this is heading from some of Dave's recent posts.

But, I can't say I will buy one no matter what it looks like. To me, that is a HUGE reason why I would make this purchase.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I've admired FFR for a long time, but I've never been interested in purchasing any of their products until now. Just like any car, if it doesn't appeal to my own personal taste I won't buy it. I can respect the engineering that goes into it, but it doesn't mean I'm going to park it in my garage.

And, yes it's hard to not sound like we're piling on Jim's design, but when the sky is the limit it's easy to dream big (and Jim's design doesn't do that). That said, you can't always build a dream (or you can't build it for $10k).

[Psay]

I want a car that is incredibly fast but more importantly is stunning to look at. Currently Rodneys Orange car, Shawn Whetstone and Vmans are my top three.

If speed is all that matters then I would build something like a MEV Rocket that only weights ~500kg and is powered by a Focus engine. It is as ugly as they come but is cheap and fast.

6110
http://www.smartsrus.com/rtr_rocket.html

[Draco-REX]

Yes, HoF means different things to different people. Yes, you can't please everyone with a single design. Fortuantely Dave already has that addressed, there will be a minimum of 3 designs built.
But not necessarily 3 of the current crop.

The roadster will be first and will be the "face" of the 818.

Next will be the track model. There hasn't been a definitive answer whether the track model will be a new body or an evolution of the roadster body.

And finally the mpg model will need a slippery body. This will definitely be different from the roadster, but there have been hints that it might be developed separately due to it's unique needs.

So of the current crop of bodies it's possible that only one will see production. That's why there's such a fever about which to build.

[skullandbones]

I bought a FFR roadster because of the fact that the skin makes it look like an iconic "world beating" machine, the Cobra. But the more I looked and studied the more I bought the roadster for what was underneath the skin. And I'm still glad I did.

The problem is that this project has no reference point in history to grab you like the Cobra. That's why everyone is hoping it will be the very hottest it can be to make it successful in the long run. But more importantly, launch it successfully in the short run. I think FFR is trying to get what they produced with the GTM project (unique FFR) with sales that will eventually eclipse the roadster. They sure have my attention! WEK.

[Jeff Kleiner]

There are some that I like better than others but really, there isn't a turkey in the whole bunch.

To me HOF is about what happens when I'm looking through the windshield with my hands on the wheel and the car is making all the right moves more than how it looks when I walk into the garage. I love the Aeriel Atom but I'm sure we will all agree that they are nothing to look at. Conversely I have a friend with a 355 Spyder; beautiful to behold but a pig to drive. Not saying that the 818 should look like it was beat with an ugly stick but I will not object to any of the final four designs so long as the chassis works (and I know it will). Visceral stimuli does it for me more than visual I guess :)

Jeff

[Flamshackle]

Even though members on this forum have overwhelmingly voted for Rodney's v 2.0 design as a favorite, we're still a very small subset of the "world" market that this vehicle is for.

This^ is a very important observation Keys. The FFR team really need to hold this in tension as they listen to all the feedback. It is destined to be a world car and as as such will need world wide (and especially European) feedback on these models.

I am from New Zealand and I am a big fan of Rodneys 2.0 model and would love to see it built.
However I am straddling THREE car camps in that if Rodneys, Xabiers or V-mans got built I would build ANY one of them in a heart beat :D They all look ace for different reasons and Very unique...

I wonder how FFR could get some more global based feedback on these designs?

[D2W]

Dave hasn't mentioned what kind of feedback Jim's model recieved at Sema. Granted it had no direct competition, but it would be interesting to know what people said.

[wjfawb0]

Jeff and I think alike.


There are some that I like better than others but really, there isn't a turkey in the whole bunch....

...Visceral stimuli does it for me more than visual I guess :)

Jeff

[Fast818]

I am in as long as I like the final design and there is a Targa or coupe.

If not I will not buy one

Currently Rodneys Orange(2) car, Shawn Whetstone(3) and Vmans(1) are my top three.

Xabier's car is ok too but the others have evolved to pass it

[BrandonDrums]

This^ is a very important observation Keys. The FFR team really need to hold this in tension as they listen to all the feedback. It is destined to be a world car and as as such will need world wide (and especially European) feedback on these models.

I am from New Zealand and I am a big fan of Rodneys 2.0 model and would love to see it built.
However I am straddling THREE car camps in that if Rodneys, Xabiers or V-mans got built I would build ANY one of them in a heart beat :D They all look ace for different reasons and Very unique...

I wonder how FFR could get some more global based feedback on these designs?

Post a master poll on Facebook and link to it from here, FFRCars.com, Grassroots Motorsport, NASIOC etc. etc.

We're not ready yet, but when Dave and the gang comes back with the house design revisions and any comments on the other designs we might be.

[3000gttom]

tbh, i dont think any of the designs had a chance from the start now that i look at what is going on.

we are seeing jims car front and center even though it is not at all favored by the forum

this i believe is mostly because the form has to follow function to an extent, and the competition was purely about form.

and it is clear that jims car is a car that follows the function of the 818 first and takes ideas from cars in the competition for its form.

so really we should be suggesting changes for jims car rather than fighting over which contest winner should be made

[DrieStone]

tbh, i dont think any of the designs had a chance from the start now that i look at what is going on.

we are seeing jims car front and center even though it is not at all favored by the forum

this i believe is mostly because the form has to follow function to an extent, and the competition was purely about form.

and it is clear that jims car is a car that follows the function of the 818 first and takes ideas from cars in the competition for its form.

so really we should be suggesting changes for jims car rather than fighting over which contest winner should be made

If that is the case, I would assume that input from the forum probably isn't going to guide the design much. After all Jim and the FFR team is going to be so much more in tune with what is or isn't possible, and the form is going to follow function. I also don't know what Jim's process is/was, but it certainly feels like his design was more about taking a few ideas and trying to meld them together than it was to come up with someone original. I'd really like to see what he would have come up with if this design competition never existed.

We don't know what is going on in Jim's or Dave's heads as far as the direction of design, but I have no doubt that FFR is looking for something dynamic. Putting aside whether the body could actually be built for a moment, I don't think there's any doubt that there are several designs that trump Jim's design. Of course when we have to consider that the car actually has to be built, things change. I don't doubt that we would probably be able to buy a car based on Jim's design sooner than something designed around something like Rodney's design.

The danger, as I've mentioned here before, is that now that we've had big dreams, we may not be willing to put our feet on the ground. After seeing Rodney's design (or even Xabiers or the other two), I'm resistant to accept anything that doesn't illicit that same kind of reaction now that I've felt it.

[ElderDragon]

It may be that 3000gttom is right and that the original plan was to synthesize a design in-house using the contest entries as inspiration. However, I think Dave is a good enough business man to realize that the in-house design is definitely going to cost them sales and his few comments since he returned from SEMA reflect that fact: he has suggested making an Olmos model as a targa/hard top variant and finding more money to do another full size model.

I do find it a bit baffling why he would have spent the money on a full scale version of Jim's design. I understand he wanted to try different paths but I would have spent the most money (presumably the full scale route) on the path that seemed the most likely to succeed which of the original bodies was Xabiers (per popular polls) by a hair over Olmos.

I also find the silence from FFR strange as well given how much has happened on this forum since the pre-SEMA discussion. I am guessing that everyone is working really hard on figuring out the path forward (i.e. finding the cash for another full scale body and such) and they don't have the answers yet.

[PhyrraM]

I do find it a bit baffling why he would have spent the money on a full scale version of Jim's design. .....

The effort to do "a" full scale model was mainly to learn about the transition from full scale to 3D plotted CAD. The model of Jim's design was a 3D printout (rapid prototyping?) of the scanned full size model. The knowledge gained from learning the process was the reason Dave stated for at least one full size mockup.

I agree, that the original idea was to use the contest as inspiration for an in house design. I think that the quality of the entrants has put Dave and FFR in a place to second guess the original path, with some hard descions to make. I think that is a large part of the apparent "slowness" of the current stage of the process - as the developement budget is seemingly under review.

[keys2heaven]

The effort to do "a" full scale model was mainly to learn about the transition from full scale to 3D plotted CAD. The model of Jim's design was a 3D printout (rapid prototyping?) of the scanned full size model. The knowledge gained from learning the process was the reason Dave stated for at least one full size mockup.

I agree, that the original idea was to use the contest as inspiration for an in house design. I think that the quality of the entrants has put Dave and FFR in a place to second guess the original path, with some hard descions to make. I think that is a large part of the apparent "slowness" of the current stage of the process - as the developement budget is seemingly under review.

I would rather wait for 2013 release of a design than one that is rushed through to deliver something in 2012. I don't think that to be the case, but Rodney is still tweaking his design and, honestly, this needs to be finalized if FFR is going to use this as a potential roadster candidate body. I wish I could be that fly on the wall right now and know what internal processes are in play to make this important decision.

Dave has certainly expressed interest in Rodney's revamped design and I would like to see this go the distance as a full size model. But, it takes money and resources. It has to be exciting (and somewhat scary) to be this close to making that call on what will be the next iteration of FF as a world car company.

Incidentally, Rodney's design is no Edsel.

[Inthenameofweez]

Dave specifically said that he dislikes Jim's current front end. This was heard from folks at SEMA. The worry that Jim's current design will make it onto the car needs to fade. Dave isn't going to green light anything that hasn't passed all questions that it might not be good enough.

Just as others have said, I hope there is as much (if not more) effort currently being put into the incomplete and imperfect chassis as is being put into the body. This will all work out. We cannot lose sight of what a fantastic company this is. With all of our criticism, we may discourage the team. So try to make it positive and with purpose.

[BrandonDrums]

The effort to do "a" full scale model was mainly to learn about the transition from full scale to 3D plotted CAD. The model of Jim's design was a 3D printout (rapid prototyping?) of the scanned full size model. The knowledge gained from learning the process was the reason Dave stated for at least one full size mockup.

I agree, that the original idea was to use the contest as inspiration for an in house design. I think that the quality of the entrants has put Dave and FFR in a place to second guess the original path, with some hard descions to make. I think that is a large part of the apparent "slowness" of the current stage of the process - as the developement budget is seemingly under review.

In going back and searching some of Dave's many posts during the design competition, I can't find a single post that suggests that using an in-house design was always 100% the goal. The only consistent point Dave made was that Jim would 100% have the final say in what design(s) make it to production. In a few posts, Dave even mentioned that if a 'rock-star' design comes out of the competition that just had to get produced, they would be willing to make a coupe or increase the price or whatever to make it happen.

I like a few others on this forum got a bit excited and ended up EXPECTING Factory Five to use a design competition winner for the production model because there was zero mention that I can find or recall saying the competition was for inspiration, the only caveat given was that the designs might have to be altered to translate into a full-scale workable design.

I guess given the absolute translations of the posts I found, Dave never excluded the possibility of the design submissions not being used for anything other than "inspiration" . On the same token, his language was actually closer to suggesting a competition winner would be used although probably altered than preparing us from a competition inspired original design.


I just HAVE to reply to this! All afternoon I swear Jim was walking around the building whistling a song that goes something like "I told you so" over and over... His eye twitch getting a bit better but still causing him to see in "strobe '" effect. Its all your fault if the car has a 70's disco theme now.

Seriously, it is way too early in the process to get worked up about this. Imagine there is a design that is sooo rock-star cool as a coupe that it pushes the price up, or introduces a new way of looking at this paradigm... that is not a problem. Everyone is talking about this car as if it is easy to pull-off. This is without a doubt the most difficult challenge our company has ever faced. Nothing, not ****** lawsuits, starting a race series, even designing the mighty GTM... nothing is as daunting as this. In my sincere and honest evaluation of our skills as a company, this is a great example of where our reach is slightly exceeding our grasp! BUT we CAN do it. Not alone. There is simply no way to deliver the panel quality we'll need without having gone to school in fiberglass for 15 years, there is no way to manufacture the chassis without the 100% support of Solidworks CAD from design to tooling to welding. The performance aspects could not be achieved without our racing in the challenge series, the crucial "look" of the car will be a jaw dropper due precisely to our experience with the GTM and the contributions of the community and some VERY experienced talented people, the cost target will ONLY be possible by leveraging our relationships with GREAT FFR suppliers we've built relationships with over the years.

To deliver the car we are trying to make, with the looks and performance and engineered-in simplicity and build-ability, and to do so for sub 10 grand with a completed cost target of sub 15 grand is INSANE. Success in this endeavor will prove to the world that Factory Five is in a category all by itself. We KNOW these things inside the walls and many folks in the community know we are capable of pulling this off.

Jim will lead the effort and making ALL final design decisions period. In the end, Jim will be the master of this design and for all these reasons and many many more. The debate of this top is noted and yet I hope it does not constrain the design competition in any way.

Success is also going to be HUGELY dependent upon having fun. Let's keep the dialog positive and fun and remember that none of us have to do this. We are all here for fun and to share our ideas and talents and passions. I have a secret mission in all this... but thats for another post and another day.

No big deal, I've in the past gotten a bit lit up about it just knowing how hard some of these designers worked probably thinking the same as me and how wonderful some of the design submissions are. But I know that in the end it will be a beautiful amazing car like we all hoped and dreamed no doubt about it and FFR absolutely is doing what's best for them and probably for us.

I just would have liked a bit more structure and reward to the designers who even still continue to push forward and I feel like that is what continues to drive the design debate. Had FFR said early on that they explicitly intended to use the finalists as inspiration for an in-house design most likely, I imagine we'd have more threads on the Chassis at this point. But that's done so I just want to see the new rendition from FFR

[PhyrraM]

Fair enough. I always interpreted the " 'IF' there is a design good enough..." as meaning that the other side of the 'IF' would be an in-house-design. I guess it just depends on how we percived it as we read it the first time.

I do recall Dave stating they needed to to a full scale model at least once for the learning curve and proof-of-concept.

In any case, with me more interested in the hardware side of things, both Rodney's and Xabier's are cool now. Never really liked the "smoothies" like Vmans or Nuephone's, but it wouldn't stop me from purchasing them. Whetstone's is nice, but I can't really give it a fair shake (personally) because it seems to have "template" or buildability issues (besides it seems tailor made for the sleek coupe derivative).

[bromikl]

If only we had a 3-D model of the frame. Then we could fit our favorites to it, showing what it would look like if it went into production.

I suspect there is an interplay going on here between the body and the frame. The KILLER design Dave alluded to may involve adjustments to the frame to allow for its production. That could be the reason for Dave's silence. I don't imagine the decision to make changes to the frame would be taken lightly.

[Oppenheimer]

I don't have time to find the posts, but Dave said on more than one occasion that the design contest winner(s) were not necessarily going to be the source of the design that went into production. This point was overlooked often on the forum. Its easy to understand why. You have a contest, the contest even says 'design the next FFR', so its easy to assume that contest = 818.

Dave left himself open (not simply by never commiting, he explicitly said he was leaving himself open) to pick one of the winners, pick some other design from the competition that didn't win, or just use any of the contest submissions as inspiration for an FFR sourced design.

But he is certainly listening to our feedback. I'm thinking a lot of the silence (besides SEMA aftermath) is FFR taking a long look to see if one of the popular designs, like Rodneys Roadster version, can be made to fit the chassis, built light enough to meet the 818 kg goal, made cheap enough to meet the <$10K goal, and be manufacturable to meet the no-paint goal.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I'm thinking a lot of the silence (besides SEMA aftermath) is FFR taking a long look to see if one of the popular designs, like Rodneys Roadster version, can be made to fit the chassis, built light enough to meet the 818 kg goal, made cheap enough to meet the <$10K goal, and be manufacturable to meet the no-paint goal.

Finally someone beating the same drum as me! Thank you for "getting it".

Jeff

[riptide motorsport]

I certainly hope so

[Xusia]

I have a lot of faith in the FFR team. look at what they've accomplished to date!!

As I look more and more at the various designs, they've all grown on me. While i do have my favorites, I think in all honesty I'd be proud to build and drive any of them. It's been said by others, and I agree, it more about function...

[Dave Smith]

Oppy and Jeff: Bingo.

I spoke to Rodney last night and asked to see if we could make some changes that may involve sending him the full chassis CAD files or us taking and fitting his body. I think this whole process is a challenge because even though I feel like Ive communicated clearly, the fact is that the complexity of the task, involving everything from small things that might seem mundane, like a production headlamp (which is actually hugely important) to larger issues of type selection (affordable roadster, Coupe, targa, hi-mpg car, track car, street car) is a real challenge.

I've sorta decided on affordable roadster as first car and fixed or removable hardtop as second. Remeber the 818 has to serve three masters and not all body shapes can do that. I like Rodneys car as it evolves and we still have about three months before we HAVE to pick a shape. Once the shape is picked, the path is VERY fast to prototype. And I refuse to tell people it will be ready before its ready... I know a guy who has been selling kits that dont exist and that just aint the FFR way. The next major node will be to unveil a full size body shape. I asked Jim to re-work the nose of his car while Rodney takes a swipe at some more encouraging mods and detailed fitment to the CAD chassis is taken into account.

I know this must be frustrating, but the feedback here has been weighed tremendously and the project is better for it. I am even now waffling between launching an affordable roadter and the track version, which would get a ton of press. The truth is that the feedbACK FROM SEMA was tremendous and there are alot of people watching the car.

My promises to you guys...

1. The car will be the best performing FFR to date (THAT IS A HUGE STATEMENT)
2. The car will look better than it performs
3. The car will be engineered, tested, prototyped, built and beta-built before deposit one is taken.

This is the next great FFR and at the helm I understand fully the opportunity we have to hit a home run, or a lame single.

[Silvertop]

Well, Dave. As long as you are currently on line.......

Is there any chance anytime soon of getting someone in the vicinity of the four 1/4 scale models to take some pictures (or walk-around videos) of them at the equivalent of ground level instead of from the equivalent of a second story window? It would go a long way toward letting us get a better perspective of what they really look like.

Just askin'...........

[imom]

Dave,
What are your thoughts on putting the same efforts into Vman7's Vantage design as what you are planning to do with Rodney's design? Have Rodney's design seems to be your clear favorite already besides Jim's version... I'd appreciate some comments on this...thank you.

[PhyrraM]

My promises to you guys...

1. The car will be the best performing FFR to date (THAT IS A HUGE STATEMENT)
2. The car will look better than it performs
3. The car will be engineered, tested, prototyped, built and beta-built before deposit one is taken.


#1 - Not sure I follow. The GTM can be had with close to 1000HP fairly easily on the technical side (ZR1 motor + tune + supporting mods), but that all costs $$$$. I'm not sure that a $10K kit needs to have this type of statement hung on it's shoulders. I get the statement, and how huge it is, but I hope your not making a statement on just the objective numbers - because nothing will beat cubic $$$$ on that front. I hope "best performing car" means "best all around car" - Objective and Subjective combined.

#2 - Please, no. Performance will make so much more of a statement than anything that can only please 50% of the audience. The "818 experience" (build, objective performance, and subjective feel) is where I would put the fat part of my energy.

#3 - Couldn't agree more. It's the reason we all know things will be fine in the end.

[ElderDragon]

Performance does not depend just on power or even power to weight. Lighter weight translates into a better overall performing car. Yes, a GTM with 1000 hp will accelerate faster and have a higher top speed but if it is comparatively worse at getting that power down out of corners, cornering and braking into the corners it may not win at the track (depending on the track).

Similarly, downforce is more effective the lighter a car is. Cornering acceleration is approximately (downforce + weight) / weight with underbody downforce a function of the area of the vehicle and wing downforce a function of the width of the vehicle. By making the 818 25% lighter with only a 11% loss in area and a 5% loss in width (GTM 2400 lb, 818 1800 lb, GTM 101" wheelbase by 61.3 average track and 818 95" wheelbase by 58.4 average track), the 818 has more cornering potential as well.

It is therefore reasonable to expect that the 818 will have the best performance overall of all the FFR cars to date.

[vozproto]

Phyrra, you are really looking at this through the wrong set of glasses.

#1 - It is all subjective as to how you objectively compare this to FFR cars. HP is one way to determine performance, but likely won't be the yard-stick for this car. 'Performance' is all in context of the designer and the intended purpose.

My vision of performance for the 818:
Imagine a technical course like VIR North or Summit Point Main. Then pit every FFR car against it on that track.
THAT's a good basis for performance in my book.

#2 - Dave has obviously just made his intentions known as far as the performance of the car in his first point. Read this in context. It will be the best performing FFR to date AND it will be even better looking than it performs. Dave has just painted himself into a corner and has but one way out without looking like a used car salesman.

[Flashburn]

Voz, you're contributing to the discussion but please try to keep it a bit more polite :)

[vozproto]

Voz, you're contributing to the discussion but please try to keep it a bit more polite :)

Reread it. You're right.
I think I fixed it now.

Thanks.

[PhyrraM]

Actually, I am very subjective in my optimism for the 818. I really don't care about almost any objective performace catagory.

Top speed? Who cares? It's a street car for me.

Lateral Gs? Like I can tell from the seat during a smooth mountain cruise.

0-60 in...? Again, don't care as long as I can get the jump on 99% of those I wish to.

Lap times? Phhsssst! I don't plan on driving in circles. (ok, a track day or 2 will happen, but for the fun, not the times)

This car is all about how it feels. Responsiveness. Turn in. Inspiring confidence. Proper balance. Grin factor.

If I misread Dave, great. I hope so. I just know that chasing pure objective goals WILL diminish the subjective "joy" of the car eventually. I have no desire for this. Race cars have great performance, but are a chore to drive on the street everyday. This is what I am afraid of and what Dave's comments, on the surface, indicated.

I will agree that this forums members are a much wider audience than most, who really only are interested in bench racing.


Edit...about styling...I don't want it to look bad, but no matter what itlooks like your still only going to get 50% of the folks to go full on HoF. Its not that important if you factor in the "what is fast is cool" and the "it grew on me" crowd. Acceptance of styling takes time...always has....Even for OEMs.

[305mouse]

I think when Dave says he wants it to be the best performing FFR car to date, he might be talking about sales. This is the "world car". Something to ship to anyone across the globe. It gonna change the face and future of FFR.

As far as looks better than it performs. It has to turn heads, hence the HoF statement. You can make it as powerfull as you want. From a N/A 2.5 oem block to 600hp built motor ready to destroy tires. At 1800 lbs the car is gonna haul *** no matter what.

Last but not least, Dave's statement is a given. You know they won't release it till it's done and done right.

[Dave Smith]

to clarify what I said...

I don't believe many people can properly drive a high hp GTM. I know I can't. I've got some OK racing experience (not lately :( though) and I can attest that the GTM is a ferociously fast car. The thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby. Toooo Fast! Seriously, you guys have no idea, the thing is a monster! as an aside, on the track a well sorted out spec racer with 250 hp will flat out spank my 427 FE powered car. Performance is a great subject and I think the weight, chassis rigidity, layout and body dynamics of the 818 promise to deliver better performance yes... BUT top speed better than a GTM? no. Overall acceleration? no, but damn close based on math I've seen.

The performance envelope of the 818 will be MUCH better for the average to advanced driver is my point, the cornering, braking, car control, even acceleration (there is a limit to acceleration) will be far above what the world expects and what anyone has a right to expect from a $10k build-it-yourself kit... I think of the car like the ariel atom rather than a Mosler or Saleen S7.

2. Models. Back from SEMA so I'll shoot off the other models sure. I go to Cali for the last day of filming Car Warriors this Friday and I'll see if Mad Dog can shoot the other models for you guys in the next few days, or at least some quick shots of each in the real world for a better comparo.

3. "Used car salesman"? I believe my record should earn me a pass from such comments. Every single thing I've said on the 818 has been accurate and part of a deliberate and planned development path. Some days I read this section of the forum and wonder why we are taking this path when we already know how to do this. Involving the community was part fun, part community (I have this crazy thingy about this forum charter and community) and part savvy business (better design ideas than in the FFR bubble). In the end I know the project will benefit from this even though its not always real fun.

To make things easier for you guys I will re-state the three things I said so that I don't disappoint:

1. The car will be a slowpoke on the track. Miatas will crowd its mirrors and corner workers will call for the crash truck thinking the car is broken as it struggles to get out of it's own way... OR it will weigh 1800 lbs and have a stiff chassis a perfect weight balance in an optimized mid-engine layout, and is being engineered by a company that has developed some of the worlds best component cars and has raced in our own racing series for over 10 years and has decided that this car will be it's most significant step forward... so I think it'll be fast.

2. The car will be an ugly catfish with toyota lines and we'll ignore the entire community and leave stunning designs on the drawing board so that we can secretly design our own car no matter what it looks like and no matter how poorly it sells... OR when you see the first production model you will do a Micheal Jackson Pepsi commercial (HoF) and you'll be willing to punch your mom right in the nose to get the chance to crawl behind the wheel and drop the hammer, sliding sideways out of the parking lot with tires spinning and engine screaming... one of those.

3. We'll start selling deposits and promising the world everything under the sun, promising delivery in mere weeks of an untested, uninvented car, that fails to launch years after it was promised, while we ignore everything we've learned in the last 15 years and using used car salesmen tactics to get people excited about a corvette, while selling em a Yugo (thats that "other company" actually!).. OR we might do our homework, we might use the latest CAD software and flow analysis and modeling, we might build a prototype or several, maybe benchmark other great designs and incorporate the feedback of knowledgeable customers, we could trust a small and diverse but competent crew of customers and builders in a well planned beta program, enlist the support of our best suppliers, and launch the car in a way that will make the auto world stop and say, "shoot, those FFR guys are friggin AWESOME!"... one of those.

[Best of the best]

to clarify what I said...

I don't believe many people can properly drive a high hp GTM. I know I can't. I've got some OK racing experience (not lately :( though) and I can attest that the GTM is a ferociously fast car. The thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby. Toooo Fast! Seriously, you guys have no idea, the thing is a monster! as an aside, on the track a well sorted out spec racer with 250 hp will flat out spank my 427 FE powered car. Performance is a great subject and I think the weight, chassis rigidity, layout and body dynamics of the 818 promise to deliver better performance yes... BUT top speed better than a GTM? no. Overall acceleration? no, but damn close based on math I've seen.

The performance envelope of the 818 will be MUCH better for the average to advanced driver is my point, the cornering, braking, car control, even acceleration (there is a limit to acceleration) will be far above what the world expects and what anyone has a right to expect from a $10k build-it-yourself kit... I think of the car like the ariel atom rather than a Mosler or Saleen S7.

2. Models. Back from SEMA so I'll shoot off the other models sure. I go to Cali for the last day of filming Car Warriors this Friday and I'll see if Mad Dog can shoot the other models for you guys in the next few days, or at least some quick shots of each in the real world for a better comparo.

3. "Used car salesman"? I believe my record should earn me a pass from such comments. Every single thing I've said on the 818 has been accurate and part of a deliberate and planned development path. Some days I read this section of the forum and wonder why we are taking this path when we already know how to do this. Involving the community was part fun, part community (I have this crazy thingy about this forum charter and community) and part savvy business (better design ideas than in the FFR bubble). In the end I know the project will benefit from this even though its not always real fun.

To make things easier for you guys I will re-state the three things I said so that I don't disappoint:

1. The car will be a slowpoke on the track. Miatas will crowd its mirrors and corner workers will call for the crash truck thinking the car is broken as it struggles to get out of it's own way... OR it will weigh 1800 lbs and have a stiff chassis a perfect weight balance in an optimized mid-engine layout, and is being engineered by a company that has developed some of the worlds best component cars and has raced in our own racing series for over 10 years and has decided that this car will be it's most significant step forward... so I think it'll be fast.

2. The car will be an ugly catfish with toyota lines and we'll ignore the entire community and leave stunning designs on the drawing board so that we can secretly design our own car no matter what it looks like and no matter how poorly it sells... OR when you see the first production model you will do a Micheal Jackson Pepsi commercial (HoF) and you'll be willing to punch your mom right in the nose to get the chance to crawl behind the wheel and drop the hammer, sliding sideways out of the parking lot with tires spinning and engine screaming... one of those.

3. We'll start selling deposits and promising the world everything under the sun, promising delivery in mere weeks of an untested, uninvented car, that fails to launch years after it was promised, while we ignore everything we've learned in the last 15 years and using used car salesmen tactics to get people excited about a corvette, while selling em a Yugo (thats that "other company" actually!).. OR we might do our homework, we might use the latest CAD software and flow analysis and modeling, we might build a prototype or several, maybe benchmark other great designs and incorporate the feedback of knowledgeable customers, we could trust a small and diverse but competent crew of customers and builders in a well planned beta program, enlist the support of our best suppliers, and launch the car in a way that will make the auto world stop and say, "shoot, those FFR guys are friggin AWESOME!"... one of those.

Just stick with the winning design and you can't go wrong Dave. Thanks!

[David]

Dave S,

Thrilled to here you are talking directly with someone as talented as Rodney. If he understands the constraints, he can modify his design to fit them. I firmly believe that you can hit the price, and hit the HoF design as well.

I agree with Jeff re, behind the wheel, and the driver experience. IMHO, IF you nail both, the car may dwarf the Roadster sales... But it has to be both.(I know you know that):)

David

[vozproto]

Dave,

I believe that your comment on the "used car salesman" was directed at me.
I apologize that my point was not written well enough that you misread my intended point. This was NOT a dig but a commendation on your tenacity to your end-goal.

"Dave has obviously just made his intentions known as far as the performance of the car in his first point. Read this in context. It will be the best performing FFR to date AND it will be even better looking than it performs. Dave has just painted himself into a corner and has but one way out without looking like a used car salesman."

I do believe that you have consciously "painted yourself in a corner with one way out" in the sense that you have decided to put your reputation on the line and promise the moon by all means necessary, and that is EXACTLY what you will deliver. And I believe you will.

And that having the "one way out" - having the most unbelievably hot looking and amazingly great performance car - is the only option you will accept.

My apologies once again for not being clearer.

[PhyrraM]

to clarify what I said...

I don't believe many people can properly drive a high hp GTM. I know I can't. I've got some OK racing experience (not lately :( though) and I can attest that the GTM is a ferociously fast car. The thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby. Toooo Fast! Seriously, you guys have no idea, the thing is a monster! as an aside, on the track a well sorted out spec racer with 250 hp will flat out spank my 427 FE powered car. Performance is a great subject and I think the weight, chassis rigidity, layout and body dynamics of the 818 promise to deliver better performance yes... BUT top speed better than a GTM? no. Overall acceleration? no, but damn close based on math I've seen.

The performance envelope of the 818 will be MUCH better for the average to advanced driver is my point, the cornering, braking, car control, even acceleration (there is a limit to acceleration) will be far above what the world expects and what anyone has a right to expect from a $10k build-it-yourself kit... I think of the car like the ariel atom rather than a Mosler or Saleen S7.
.

Fears calmed. Thanks Dave. You can obviously say what I have been trying to, just much more eloquently. We are on the same page afterall.

[vozproto]

tThe thought of driving at VIR at race pace in my LS7 powered car makes me cry like a baby.

Agreed. But the thought of this in an 818 though makes me absolutely giddy. :D VIR North was my favorite track when I was racing bikes. I was all about the quicker nimbler 600cc bikes over the scary 1000cc bikes.

And yeah... It's typically not the car that limits the performance. It's the guy behind the wheel. You see this in every form of amateur track days and racing. Anyone can hit the throttle between the turns, but what's the point if you can't carry the corner-speed.

[imom]

I want a car that is incredibly fast but more importantly is stunning to look at. Currently Rodneys Orange car, Shawn Whetstone and Vmans are my top three.

If speed is all that matters then I would build something like a MEV Rocket that only weights ~500kg and is powered by a Focus engine. It is as ugly as they come but is cheap and fast.

6110
http://www.smartsrus.com/rtr_rocket.html

Funny that you mentioned a trike... my friend made his and it uses a turbo motorcycle engine 400hp... ~500kg.

http://www.martinomotorcompany.com/

[Psay]

Funny that you mentioned a trike... my friend made his and it uses a turbo motorcycle engine 400hp... ~500kg.

http://www.martinomotorcompany.com/

The last time I looked the MEV Rocket had 4 wheels, maybe one has fallen off!!

[imom]

The last time I looked the MEV Rocket had 4 wheels, maybe one has fallen off!!

didn't see the details...the back wheels look like a single....how is it any different than an atom than?

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Some days I read this section of the forum and wonder why we are taking this path when we already know how to do this...

You don't know how many times I've read through a series of posts and thought "Man, I wonder if Dave and Jim are secretly wishing that they'd just kept it all under wraps until time to pull off the tarp for an unveiling a'la 'Larry'!" :)

Carry on,
Jeff

[2KWIK4U]

I think Dave must have a lot of confidence in order for this forum to be included in the design of a new kit. After building my Roadster and dealing with the company, I have no doubt he can deliver.

[NicksPapaw]

Dave, you have just made my day!!! That has got to be one of the funniest posts EVER!!! I truely don't understand why you put up with some of us on the forum. I guess that from your perspective, some of these posts are like reading the comics. I know everyone wants the car to be done yesterday. Real world is that I don't see how you have gotten this far this fast. Obviously you have a lot of tallent hidden behind the curtain in Wareham. Keep up the great work.

PS..... How about some spy shots from the Car Warriors show? We know you will be there. :)

[Dave Smith]

Voz: No worries at all. One of the challenges of Forums is that ALOT of the meaning and intentions are tough to communicate. No offense taken and I really am very thankful for the honest feedback.

I'll try and shoot some spy stuff out from Car Warriors, but I have to tell you, right now my heart goes out to those guys in a big way as they near the end of the 48 hours build. They only have about 7 hours left and none of them have slept since monday night. They will be EXHAUSTED tommorow at judging. The amount of love and passion and hard work that these two teams have VOLUNTEERED this week is humbling and a great example of community. I'll be there tonight and I'm bringing with me to the set a big shot of adrenaline for the guys as they will meet three beautiful and brave young girls who have all faced tough nights themselves fighting Cystic Fibrosis.

Got a great PM yesterday asking us to set up an 818 updates section on the forum so we (I) can put updates in a single location. That was a GREAT idea and I'll try and act on it when I get back in next week. The guy with the idea?... Voz. Thanks man! Keep up the good work and feedback.

[bromikl]

Got a great PM yesterday asking us to set up an 818 updates section on the forum so we (I) can put updates in a single location.

Be sure to block the updates section from posts. There's already an "818 Updates" thread which has devolved significantly...

[David Hodgkins]

DS PM sent...

:)

[olpro]

I recently came across this. Although I have not actually seen this book personally, it appears to have some vital information which could positively impact this project and it is coming from authoritative sources. I plan to order it myself by the way.
http://www.amazon.com/H-Point-Fundamentals-Car-Design-Packaging/dp/1933492376

[vozproto]

^ Me likey. Wish they had a kindle/ipad version of it. Would be awefully convenient.