Fuel lines

[LateApex]

I am digging in to this aspect of the build as I seek to close out on hard lines running through the tranny tunnel.

I am likely missing something obvious, but here goes:

The feed from the fuel tank, and the various bits (like inline filters and fuel pumps) are all based on 3/8" hose. Yet my kit came with 5/16" Rhino Hide hard lines (-4 AN). And the feed to my fuel rail is -6 AN, i.e.: assumes 3/8" hose. I am trying to understand the apparent disconnect between supplied Rhino Hide hard lines (5/16" on the feed side) and various fittings and soft hoses and other bits. Trying to find inline adapters just sucks the air out of the room. And the return side is similarly out of whack. What am I missing? Except that I need to order some 3/8" hard line?

All advice here muchly appreciated :-)

Best ... Bob

[edwardb]

5/16" supply and 1/4" return lines are standard on all kits. All the standard fittings, filter, fuel tank pickup, etc. should be compatible with those sizes. If you're doing an engine and fuel system that requires larger sizes unfortunately not much of that will be useable. Did you get an optional EFI setup? Is that were the 3/8" (and -6AN, same thing) is coming from? Bottom line, yes you will to obtain some additional line and parts. I wouldn't try to adapt a 3/8" setup to use 5/16" lines.

[LateApex]

Thanks for the reply Edward. The thing that was puzzling me was the mismatch between the provided fuel filter and hard lines, and associated adapters, regardless of any unique induction system. There are other issues as well concerning the nylon quick disconnect link from the fuel tank feed line, where the pickup lines are 90 degrees out of sync, thereby rendering that assembly useless. A few surprises in this part of the build. FWIW. Not griping. Just wondering if others have moved to a 3/8" feed to make these bits fit together.

[B Campbell]

I`m having the same concerns with my fuel system. looks like the FF fuel lines will be to small for my Holly Sniper Fuel Injection system. I plan on replacing the Kit supplied fuel pick up with one with two 3/8" AN fittings and run two 3/8" supply and return lines.

[Rockman]

I have a BPE 347 with Sniper. I used NiCopp hard fuel and return lines and I am pleased with the results. In addition, I used nuts, sleeves and I also used in a few places:
Russell Performance 660353 - Russell ProClassic Couplers – Fitting, Coupler, Union, AN to AN, Straight, Aluminum, Black Anodized, -6 AN, -6 AN, Each.

The clamps from Lodestone BilletWorks are a nice touch.

I had flexible fuel lines fabricated to go from the NiCopp fuel lines to the Sniper in the engine compartment by Aircraft Specialty http://www.aircraftspecialty.com/ They make very nice custom hoses.
Promracing.com supplied a high fuel flow in tank hanger, internal fuel pump, high flow canister type fuel filter, and heavy gauge fuel pump pigtail.

Finally, I found this article helpful on how to properly tighten AN fittings (counting flats method) on the Pegasus Auto website:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/do...ocID=TECH00157

[Skuzzy]

I have a BPE 347 with Sniper. I used NiCopp hard fuel and return lines and I am pleased with the results. In addition, I used nuts, sleeves and I also used in a few places:
Russell Performance 660353 - Russell ProClassic Couplers – Fitting, Coupler, Union, AN to AN, Straight, Aluminum, Black Anodized, -6 AN, -6 AN, Each.

The clamps from Lodestone BilletWorks are a nice touch.

I had flexible fuel lines fabricated to go from the NiCopp fuel lines to the Sniper in the engine compartment by Aircraft Specialty http://www.aircraftspecialty.com/ They make very nice custom hoses.
Promracing.com supplied a high fuel flow in tank hanger, internal fuel pump, high flow canister type fuel filter, and heavy gauge fuel pump pigtail.

Finally, I found this article helpful on how to properly tighten AN fittings (counting flats method) on the Pegasus Auto website:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/do...ocID=TECH00157

The tech doc for tightening AN fittings got clobbered in your post. Here it is: How to properly tighten AN fittings. (https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/document.asp?DocID=TECH00157)

[LateApex]

Today, I settled on 3/8" feed and 5/16" return.

I am using Earl's Vapor Guard 6AN to 3/8" and 5/16" hose ends respectively on my fuel rail, 60" lengths of 3/8" and 5/16" Edelmann Rhino Guard hardline (the 5/16" was part of the kit), quick connects at the tank that were part of the kit, modifying (cutting) the nylon feed line to mate with the after market low-resistance fuel filter (which has a barb) - this works around the 90 degree FMSI quick connect connector that I broke, and was otherwise not appropriate anyway given my pickup orientation, and have installed the return, waiting for the Edelmann 660PVF to install the feed. Routing the feed line is "interesting", as I need to get the inline pump below tank fuel level - I am running that hardline at the bottom PS of the tranny tunnel. Return lines are run along the top DS of tranny tunnel, alongside rear brake lines.

This part of the build is almost a wrap.

Thanks all for sharing!!

[NAZ]

Running fuel and brake lines anywhere near the drivetrain is NOT a good practice. If that's the only way you can figure out how to route them, you should consider running them in .120" wall DOM tubing to shield them from damage should you have a driveshaft, u-joint, or flywheel failure.

https://daytonclutch.com/sites/default/files/files/twisted_tubing1_600.jpg

[LateApex]

Running fuel and brake lines anywhere near the drivetrain is NOT a good practice. If that's the only way you can figure out how to route them, you should consider running them in .120" wall DOM tubing to shield them from damage should you have a driveshaft, u-joint, or flywheel failure.

https://daytonclutch.com/sites/default/files/files/twisted_tubing1_600.jpg

Yep. Very good point. Ouch!

[LateApex]

May I ask which in-tank fuel pump you have settled on?

[edwardb]

May I ask which in-tank fuel pump you have settled on?

Should be matched to whatever engine/induction setup you're using. Often recommended by the suppliers. What are you running? If you're planning to use the kit provided fuel tank and stock design fuel tank hangar location, lots of options to match your build.

[Skuzzy]

Running fuel and brake lines anywhere near the drivetrain is NOT a good practice. If that's the only way you can figure out how to route them, you should consider running them in .120" wall DOM tubing to shield them from damage should you have a driveshaft, u-joint, or flywheel failure.

https://daytonclutch.com/sites/default/files/files/twisted_tubing1_600.jpg

Studying the Coupe frame, there really is no other option I can find to run fuel and brake lines which do not expose them to more danger. That said, yes, running them through some DOM would reduce the likelihood of damage.

If anyone has come up with a better routing, I would like to hear about it. I just cannot see one.

[LateApex]

Eight-stack F.I. on a 347. I have a Walbro GSL392 in-line pump. The fittings and hard lines seem too small (Hose barbs on the 5/16" Rhino Hide PVF lines are necked down to 3/16" for example. Dialing in the lines and fittings for a 3/8" feed and 5/16" return is not too difficult.

What is more of a challenge is where to mount an inline pump. Such pumps need to be below the tank. The frame mounting options that meet that criteria and others, such as proximity to tank and pointing in the right direction, are very few. The only spot on the Coupe really is right adjacent to the rear u-joint.

So, I am switching gears, and now planning to use an in-tank fuel pump. This allows me to run feed lines down the DS upper corner of the tranny tunnel, where my return and rear brake lines are presently routed. Doing the math on pump sizing: 425HP * 0.5 (BSFC) = 156 lph at 35-65 psi. This has landed me on the 190 lph pump offered by Breeze with plenty of margin, and no need to angle for a 3/8" return.

Plan du jour anyway :-)

[nick729]

Eight-stack F.I. on a 347. I have a Walbro GSL392 in-line pump. The fittings and hard lines seem too small (Hose barbs on the 5/16" Rhino Hide PVF lines are necked down to 3/16" for example. Dialing in the lines and fittings for a 3/8" feed and 5/16" return is not too difficult.

What is more of a challenge is where to mount an inline pump. Such pumps need to be below the tank. The frame mounting options that meet that criteria and others, such as proximity to tank and pointing in the right direction, are very few. The only spot on the Coupe really is right adjacent to the rear u-joint.

So, I am switching gears, and now planning to use an in-tank fuel pump. This allows me to run feed lines down the DS upper corner of the tranny tunnel, where my return and rear brake lines are presently routed. Doing the math on pump sizing: 425HP * 0.5 (BSFC) = 156 lph at 35-65 psi. This has landed me on the 190 lph pump offered by Breeze with plenty of margin, and no need to angle for a 3/8" return.

Plan du jour anyway :-)

You could go with FFR EFI in tank fuel system, which includes an in-tank Walbro 255lph pump, regulator with gauge and all the fittings and hoses. As far as i can tell from the packing list the kit only uses Nylon Braided hoses and no hardlines (could be wrong though).

Any reason why you want hard-lines? I am in the process of planning my own fuel system and decided to go with -06 AN SS braided hoses for the entire system.

[edwardb]

Any reason why you want hard-lines? I am in the process of planning my own fuel system and decided to go with -06 AN SS braided hoses for the entire system.

Historically, braided hoses were discouraged because the liner would eventually break down and start weeping or emitting gasoline odor. Currently available Teflon lined hoses hold up and not an issue. Just make sure that's what you use. The braided lines are slightly more bulky and more expensive. The lines and all the adapters add up $$$ in a hurry. Cutting the lines and installing the adapters isn't hard but takes a little practice. So those are possible decision points. I've done hard lines in all my builds up till now. Used Aeroquip TFE Racing Hose and Aeroquip fittings in my truck build. A first. Have to admit, it was easier to install. Worked out well.

[Skuzzy]

You could go with FFR EFI in tank fuel system, which includes an in-tank Walbro 255lph pump, regulator with gauge and all the fittings and hoses. As far as i can tell from the packing list the kit only uses Nylon Braided hoses and no hardlines (could be wrong though).

Any reason why you want hard-lines? I am in the process of planning my own fuel system and decided to go with -06 AN SS braided hoses for the entire system.

You did not ask me, but I'll chime in on this.

There are pros and cons to both hard and flex lines. The biggest con of the flexible line is you cannot tell when it may be failing. The SS braid hides that from you. If you use PTFE lines, which you should if you go this route (nylon is also an option), it is also susceptible to kinking inside the SS braid. Again, you cannot see it happen. Make sure the flex line you use is rated for the pressure you will be running. There is a lot of Chinese junk out there.

With hard lines, what you see is what you get. NiCopp is a really good option here. Easy to flare, easy to bend. Will not corrode, and a good line has a higher burst strength than stainless steel. I have been using NiCopp for fuel and brake lines for a while now. Best thing that ever happened to hard lines.

[Namrups]

Who is a good vender for the NiCopp lines and can you get it in straight pieces or coiled?

[Skuzzy]

Who is a good vender for the NiCopp lines and can you get it in straight pieces or coiled?

That is a good question as there is a lot of bad NiCopp out there.

I only use NiCopp which meets SAE Standard J1047 and ISO 4038 standards. Not much out there does. I source it all from here: SAE Standard J1047 and ISO 4038 approved NiCopp (https://agscompany.com/product-category/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/nicopp-nickel-copper/coiled-tubing-nicopp/)

It all comes coiled. I just have a straightener I use. It is intended for hand use, but I clamp it in the bench vise and run the line through it. Works like a charm.

If you use it for brake lines, here is the tool I use for the double flares. It is easy to use and never makes a bad flare. Double flaring tool for 3/16" NiCopp brake line (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XPRVCPV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

I would not try using the above tool for anything other than NiCopp. I just clamp it in the bench vise to use it.

One word of caution with NiCopp. It takes less torque to seal the connection than other materials. If you over-tighten it, it will leak. I use a dab of machine oil on the outside of the flare, then tighten until I feel resistance then crank about 3/4 more. If it leaks from there, you can bump it a bit. Over-tighten it and you start over.

[Namrups]

Great information. Thanks.

[LateApex]

You could go with FFR EFI in tank fuel system, which includes an in-tank Walbro 255lph pump, regulator with gauge and all the fittings and hoses. As far as i can tell from the packing list the kit only uses Nylon Braided hoses and no hardlines (could be wrong though).

Any reason why you want hard-lines? I am in the process of planning my own fuel system and decided to go with -06 AN SS braided hoses for the entire system.

I guess there are a couple of reasons (in addition to some of the comments about the reliability that others have made already)

1) The Edelmann Rhino Hide PVF lines were part of the kit
2) It is a clean look, particularly when the same product is used for brake and fuel systems
3) Braided lines take more room and require more clamps.

I may have thunk this through a bit more if I were starting with a clean slate.

The inconsistency in my approach is that I am presently planning on using Edelmann vapor guard hoses for the flexible bits in the fuel system, where I will be using braided lines for the flexible bits in the brake system, if only for the better high pressure performance.

[edwardb]

I guess there are a couple of reasons (in addition to some of the comments about the reliability that others have made already)

1) The Edelmann Rhino Hide PVF lines were part of the kit
2) It is a clean look, particularly when the same product is used for brake and fuel systems
3) Braided lines take more room and require more clamps.

I may have thunk this through a bit more if I were starting with a clean slate.

The inconsistency in my approach is that I am presently planning on using Edelmann vapor guard hoses for the flexible bits in the fuel system, where I will be using braided lines for the flexible bits in the brake system, if only for the better high pressure performance.

As someone who has spent more time than I want to admit bending and flaring rigid SS fuel on brake lines on multiple builds, don't obsess about what the fuel and brake lines look like. Love the SS, but on a finished car they are barely visible and lost in the ocean of all the other hoses, wires, etc. I used plain steel on my truck build. And you know what? Life as I know it still goes on. The effort was way less and they look fine. Make yours neat, direct, and not leaking. Then move on.