First start video, weird things, and some question

[Alex_V]

https://youtu.be/q-FVR-9nwYE

I finally got to the point where the car was started. Its a Coyote Gen 2 with Ford power pack. Some weird things started to happen. Let me share the timeline.

First start, and it cranked right up firing on all 8. We noticed a small fuel leak near the gas tank. Loose fitting.
Second start, and it fired right up. Noticed another small leak by the pressure regulator. Tightened the fitting.
Third start and its crank, crank, crank. Engine wont fire up. pressure regulator at 55, spark is happening, feels very rich, and spark plugs are flooded with fuel.
......

Messed with checking all the electrical fittings. This and that. Sprayed starter fluid into the intake... etc.

Somehow it started up, but was not firing on all 8. Unplugged and plugged injectors, and somehow it started to run on all 8. Smells very rich.. but now gas pedal is not responding. Plugged in a spare pedal, and its working. Plugged back the original pedal, and now its responding again. No rhyme or reason.

Now it wont start by the turn of the key only, but with working the gas pedal it will get going. With hesitation. Running rich and at higher than normal rpms.

My theory - gauges are not plugged in and computer keeps thinking its a cold start. Connecting the gauges, and them to computer should fix things.

Next steps:

- finish gauges
- finish driveshaft
- figure out how to bleed the hydraulic clutch (no actual bleed, just repetitive clutch engagement I am thinking)
- possibly get an aftermarket tuner to tweak the map (?)

Anyways, sorry for a long post. Very excited to hear it run for its first time. Any thoughts on any of this?

[Alex_V]

One thing that I am questioning is how I spliced the tachometer wire.

I used "purple" harness wire and to connect it to "blue" #7 cylinder wire. There were two purple wires in the harness, one went to alternator and one to MAF. I assumed that either one will be fine, and I connected to one of them. Can that be where I took a wrong turn?

[edwardb]

Nothing in your gauges or tach wire should affect anything you're describing regarding the engine start and run. The engine PCM doesn't know (or care...) anything about those. How sure are you about the 55 PSI on the regulator? How did you set it? Positive you have the MAF sensor installed the right direction? That's a common mistake. I've also heard that there's some type of failsafe in the computer that if cranked an extended time it will shut down or go into limp mode or whatever. No personal experience, but maybe that's happening for some reason. I've never encountered one that got flooded like that. But I've also never gone to the measures you're describing (removing plugs, removing injectors, spraying it, etc.). Haven't found it necessary. Maybe back off that a little. A Gen 2 with the Ford Performance control pack and stock tune runs pretty well right out of the box.

As far as the tach wire -- there are three wires going to each coil-on-plug. There are two wire colors common to all eight. There is one wire color that unique for each one. That's the one you want to tap into. It doesn't matter which cylinder you use. Doesn't affect how it starts or runs. Just gives a signal to your dash mounted tach.

[Alex_V]

How sure are you about the 55 PSI on the regulator? How did you set it? Positive you have the MAF sensor installed the right direction? That's a common mistake.

I have a brand new AEI-13129 – 6AN Fuel pressure regulator, per instructions. I didn't set it. Didn't even know was such a thing. Gauge was showing about 55 after fuel pump will prime it for a few seconds. I believe when running it will drop to about 40. I should pay closer attention to it next time.

MAF is pointing away from the motor. Should be in a correct place

I am going to document things better next time.

[GTBradley]

Just an observation from what little detail I can see, is the O2 sensor connected on the left side? In the video it looks like it’s hanging down. That pipe appears to be putting out the majority of the fumes too.

[Alex_V]

Driver (left) side is definitely connected. Right side was not. Did I miss a plug?

Yep, passenger side wasnt plugged in. Need to get an extension.

[rich grsc]

I would NEVER spray starter fluid in a modern computer controlled engine. Could be looking at an expensive new engine.

[Alex_V]

Probably not the best idea regarding starting fluid.

What is the standard process for setting the fuel pressure? I have a Aeromotive 13129 with a attached gauge. I believe after priming with the pump it shows about 55, and around 40 when idling. Set it at 55 with engine off, correct?

[edwardb]

I have a brand new AEI-13129 – 6AN Fuel pressure regulator, per instructions. I didn't set it. Didn't even know was such a thing. Gauge was showing about 55 after fuel pump will prime it for a few seconds. I believe when running it will drop to about 40. I should pay closer attention to it next time.

MAF is pointing away from the motor. Should be in a correct place

I am going to document things better next time.


Probably not the best idea regarding starting fluid.

What is the standard process for setting the fuel pressure? I have a Aeromotive 13129 with a attached gauge. I believe after priming with the pump it shows about 55, and around 40 when idling. Set it at 55 with engine off, correct?


Driver (left) side is definitely connected. Right side was not. Did I miss a plug?

Yep, passenger side wasnt plugged in. Need to get an extension.

Yes, 55 PSI with the engine off and pump running. As it says in the Ford Performance instructions. In my experience, it doesn't drop to 40 with the engine running. Typically still 55. What pump and lines are you using? The question I asked about the MAF wasn't regarding orientation to the engine. Although on the outside curve of the cold air intake is recommended, which would typically be in front. What I meant was whether it was installed properly, e.g. it's easy to put in backwards. Based on the video with engine running, I'd say it's correct. It wouldn't run that way if it were backwards. Starting and running the engine without one of the O2 sensors connected is a bad idea. Very likely the root of some/all of your problems. Had to be throwing DTC's as well. In that engine, the two O2 sensors work independently. One on the left bank of cylinders. The other on the right bank. You had half the engine unmonitored.

[Jeff Kleiner]

RE: Oxygen sensors. Plugged in or not isn't going to keep it from starting and running initially. While I agree that it's best to have them working (although some tune them out but that's a whole different topic) they do not come into play on a cold start or during warmup. The ECU doesn't monitor them until the engine reaches full operating temperature and goes into closed loop. While in open loop it's just running on tables based on throttle position and RPM.

Jeff

[edwardb]

RE: Oxygen sensors. Plugged in or not isn't going to keep it from starting and running initially. While I agree that it's best to have them working (although some tune them out but that's a whole different topic) they do not come into play on a cold start or during warmup. The ECU doesn't monitor them until the engine reaches full operating temperature and goes into closed loop. While in open loop it's just running on tables based on throttle position and RPM.

Jeff

Sure about that Jeff for a Coyote? Have to believe the emissions standards for an OE engine would be designed to get it into closed loop as quickly as possible. Regardless, I don’t think it’s a good idea to be starting and running without everything hooked up. I’d bet it’s throwing codes and not happy. Enough variables in all this to not introduce new ones you have control over.

[Alex_V]

I will take better pics next weekend. I presume removing a positive lead from a battery would reset the computer, and I will be doing a fresh start again.

How does the coyote read its water temp? I was under impression that the wire went from sending unit on the block to the vintage gauge. It has been a long while when I did them, and my memory is a bit blurry.

[Hoooper]

Hows your battery condition? Having a bunch of seemingly unrelated random electrical issues on a computer controlled engine can point to low battery voltage.

[Alex_V]

Hows your battery condition? Having a bunch of seemingly unrelated random electrical issues on a computer controlled engine can point to low battery voltage.

Well, I had it fully charged, but it's an older battery that sat for a few years. I will put it on a battery tender to top it off, but it did sit for long time. My donor car was 2017 Mustang, and I am betting it's the original battery. I may need to bite the bullet and get a new one anyways.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Sure about that Jeff for a Coyote? Have to believe the emissions standards for an OE engine would be designed to get it into closed loop as quickly as possible. Regardless, I don’t think it’s a good idea to be starting and running without everything hooked up. I’d bet it’s throwing codes and not happy. Enough variables in all this to not introduce new ones you have control over.

They have to build some heat before they'll drop into closed loop; if memory serves I believe the transition to closed is around 150. If the engine temperature sensor isn't reporting it will probably throw P0125 (Insufficient coolant temperature for closed loop fuel control), P0126 (Insufficient coolant temperature for stable operation), P0128 (Coolant temperature below regulated temperature) or all three. Again, none will keep it from running but they could keep it from running well, and will keep it in open loop.

I think the advice to get everything connected, reset and try again is a good plan. If the issues continue you're going to need to start reading codes otherwise it's just kind of a guessing game.

Good luck!

Jeff

[edwardb]

How does the coyote read its water temp? I was under impression that the wire went from sending unit on the block to the vintage gauge. It has been a long while when I did them, and my memory is a bit blurry.

Coyote doesn't have a water temp sensor. It reads cylinder heat temperature (CHT) and "infers" water temp. You can see it if you stream the data out of the ODB2 port. Nothing to do with the water temp gauge.

The water temp sending unit added per the gauge instructions is only for the gauge itself.

[Alex_V]

Got it, Thanaks.

I am thinking the next steps wold be to connect missing O2 sensor, put a fresh battery, plus scan the ODB2 with FORScan to see what is going on.

[BadAsp427]

Congratulations on the first start. Sure, it looks like you have a few gremlins to work out but a great milestone none the less. Congrats....

[Alex_V]

Well, I think I figured out most of my initial issues.

- Fuel regulator was off
- Random leak in a vacuum line
- Fried MAF, my fault, glad I had a used spare


My next thing that is completely puzzling is the fan. I would want the computer to control it, but directions are fuzzy for some one at my level. I have "Orange Blunt Cut" wire that doesnt look to be long enough to reach the fan. There are three fan wires coming out of the RF harness that are routed close to the fan, and fan itself has a plug with a blacj and blue wires.

Could someone in very simple words (or pictures) walk me through this? Coyote manual and Power Pack manual seem to be over my head.

[Al_C]

A little late to this party, but I have two thoughts that MAY be appropriate.

1. The Gen II controls pack has a fan lead. It is item "O" on page 9 of the controls pack document. That branch is on the same cutout as the starter lead. The fan itself has two leads, one of which is a ground. Connect the non-ground lead (non-black) to the coyote lead and ground the other one. The "blunt cut orange" lead you mention is probably the coyote wire, not an RF wire. Connect that one and ignore the others. You won't be using an RF wires for the fan. Just the coyote controls pack wire.

2. On codes: did you connect the MIL? If not mistaken, that light has to be connected for everything to work. If there are one or more codes, that light will illuminate. The red wire on the pigtail connects to the MIL. The other MIL lead is the ground.

[Alex_V]

Yeah the orange wire is labeled Fan lead. Its just a single heave gauge wire. Do I extend it to blu on the fan, and just ground fan to chassis? Cap RF fan wires.

I believe my MIL came in already connected. I am seeing an orange check engine light (presume codes haven't cleared yet), Only wire left in the pigtail that is left unused is HAAT B, which I think is for the clock.

I tried to scan for codes, but my OBDLink EX with Forscan wont get through the "Vehicle not recognized, enter Product Number". None of serial numbers on the PCM seem to get me through.

[Alex_V]

Wiring vintage gauges will be next. That part I am terrified off. Looked at the instructions, and just put them back down on the work bench.:(

[mabbott74]

Could someone in very simple words (or pictures) walk me through this?

Laughed way too hard at that. I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[john42]

As an aside.. is that a ticking valve I hear? I'm not a Coyote user... I'm an old 289/302 push rod fan and ticking valves are something that grab my attention right away!

[Al_C]

Yeah the orange wire is labeled Fan lead. Its just a single heave gauge wire. Do I extend it to blu on the fan, and just ground fan to chassis? Cap RF fan wires.

I believe my MIL came in already connected. I am seeing an orange check engine light (presume codes haven't cleared yet), Only wire left in the pigtail that is left unused is HAAT B, which I think is for the clock.

I tried to scan for codes, but my OBDLink EX with Forscan wont get through the "Vehicle not recognized, enter Product Number". None of serial numbers on the PCM seem to get me through.

Yes. connect the wires, ground the fan and that's done. If the orange light is on, then you have stored codes. I would check to see how that orange light is connected to ensure it's on the correct pigtail wire (red). Not knowing anything about your specific scanner, I did a quick check on google. sounds like forscan is a separate software tool. Can you connect the scanner by itself without forscan? If so, perhaps you can see codes. If not, you may need to check the installation of forscan. apparently there are different device drivers and other configuration settings? That could be your problem.

[GTBradley]

Since you are using a gen 2 Coyote you may benefit from the cooling fan mod many have used. I wrote this up some time ago on my build thread post # 377 (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?30668-GTBradley-s-build-Intermittent-wipers-and-washer/page10) and on it's own post for two stage cooling fans (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34158-!-Two-stage-cooling-fan-controller-for-Gen-2-Coyote-(will-work-for-any-engine)-115). The problem with Gen 2 Coyotes is the ECU turns on the fan at full (loud!) speed after three minutes and doesn't allow it to turn off until you shut off the engine. The instructions are detailed, but if you need help just ask.

Bradley

[John Ibele]

Looked at the instructions, and just put them back down on the work bench.:(

Well, at least this part's going well. Everyone's done that.

[Alex_V]

Quick question.

1. How important is to wire the “black to battery” wire to the battery itself? I have it currently go to a bolt on the back of the motor. Battery is in the trunk, so it will be a long wire to it.

2. Orange fan wire is pretty thick but not long enough. Do I need that gauge wire or something less heavy would do?

Thanks again.

[Al_C]

Quick question.

1. How important is to wire the “black to battery” wire to the battery itself? I have it currently go to a bolt on the back of the motor. Battery is in the trunk, so it will be a long wire to it.

2. Orange fan wire is pretty thick but not long enough. Do I need that gauge wire or something less heavy would do?

Thanks again.

First, I'd check the location of your PCM and how you ran your wire harness. You noted that your O2 sensor didn't reach the header. It should without an extension. You also noted that the fan wire isn't long enough. It should be. Did you mount your PCM on the PS frame with the provided bracket? If so, the layout of the PCM wire harness should reach everything adequately. Just my thoughts. Do what works for you.

I can't see my fan wire connection because the body is in the way and I don't remember how I connected it originally. It should be OK, but do what works best for you. You should be able to use spade connectors on that (or whatever you're most comfortable with).

You'll get a zillion opinions on grounds. I believe the instructions call for going directly to the battery to ensure you have a good ground. In my opinion, if the back of the engine is a good ground, then you should be fine. You'll probably get another zillion - 1 opinions on that.

[Alex_V]

Well, today was a good day. Connected to PCM with OBDLink and TouchScan software. Saw a few old codes. Which I anticipated to see,

P0100 - fried Maf (fixed since)
P0113 - same as above
P0122 - TPS high voltage (suspect bad ground at the time)
P0135 - O2 sensor that I didnt have plugged in early on
P0223 - Throttle/pedal position switch/sensor B circuit high output (suspect bad ground at the time)

Cleared the old codes, and started up without check engine light. Small victory today.


https://youtu.be/ts3RtAYqpuo

[Alex_V]

As an aside.. is that a ticking valve I hear? I'm not a Coyote user... I'm an old 289/302 push rod fan and ticking valves are something that grab my attention right away!

I dont think it had a tick. No knock codes.

[Alex_V]

My next big question is how can you tell if the clutch master is properly bled? I have a Willwood pedal / MC, honestly don't recall which specs. I ordered it a couple of years ago and my memory isn't what it used to be. I read that Coyote is a self bleeding clutch setup, and all you have to do is pump the clutch for 30 minutes. After doing clutch masturbation for 30 min, I don't feel that it's stiff enough )) I can easily pull the pedal in by hand. Driveshaft is not installed yet, and in neutral I can easily spin the transmission shaft housing. Once in gear, and with clutch depressed, I can't move it at all. Any thoughts?