Looking for input on my engine vibration issue.

[mburger]

Hey everyone.

Once again I'm looking for input from those that know way more than me.

Problem:
347 Stroker with about 6k miles. Blueprint long block with Pro-Flo 4.
Engine dyno'd at 439hp/429tq. Started vibrating. One day it was ok, the next it was vibrating.
It vibrates throughout the RPM range, however, it is worse at about 1,700 - 1,900 and then again at 2,500, then it'll get a little better before getting progressively worse heading towards 4k.
It vibrates sitting in the driveway with the clutch in. No difference when driving.
The engine is running well otherwise.
If something worked, then it doesn't, something changed. Has to be. But what?

What I've done:
Started a warranty file with Blueprint. This is their long block.
Blueprint says it is not their long block because they can't think of anything in the long block that would make the engine vibrate.
If I push it, they'll likely take it back to test and then rebuild. I'm not wanting to do that due to the work involved and I won't see my engine back for many months most likely.
I sent my flywheel at their insistence to be checked that it is within 2gms of 28oz. If it isn't, they will make it so and send it back. (I have no use for it now)
Replaced the Energy Suspension Poly engine and transmission mounts with rubber OEM mounts. No difference and I hate them.
Replaced the flywheel from Mike Forte.
Replaced the balancer with a Fluidampr 650211.
Replaced plugs, wires, rotor and cap.
Replaced the Pro-Flo 4 ECU.
Sent pics of plugs to Blueprint and they verified looked good.
Verified timing with cylinder #1 rocker arms TDC.
Ran the engine with ONLY the balancer and flywheel - no serpentine belt. STILL VIBRATES.

Yes, I know it looks like I'm throwing parts at a problem, but some parts I already had, others were at the direction of Blueprint and some were out of sheer frustration, like the ECU, which I returned.

I am at a loss. I'm missing something. What else can I check?
I have not done a compression test recently, but I did when the engine had less than 1k on it, so I have possibly a break-in comparison. All cylinders were within 5%.

What say everyone?

[Sdonnel]

Might be a long shot, but did you dial in your bell housing? I don’t think the vibrations you are feeling would be caused by that. Just an idea. I had a vibration at 4,200 rpm and redialed the bell housing to .0005” and it’s gone. I hope you find it quickly. I chased mine for a while.

Scott

[BadAsp427]

Check and see if your side pipe supports are up against the bottom of the body under the doors. I had that problem with the FFR brackets... they were touching very tight up against the body/frame... As soon as I put a piece of rubber (heater hose) between the body and that bracket and the vibrations were gone.... My main RPM range was 2200-2700 rpm...

[mburger]

Might be a long shot, but did you dial in your bell housing? I don’t think the vibrations you are feeling would be caused by that. Just an idea. I had a vibration at 4,200 rpm and redialed the bell housing to .0005” and it’s gone. I hope you find it quickly. I chased mine for a while.

Scott

Thanks Scott. Appreciate the suggestion!

[mburger]

Check and see if your side pipe supports are up against the bottom of the body under the doors. I had that problem with the FFR brackets... they were touching very tight up against the body/frame... As soon as I put a piece of rubber (heater hose) between the body and that bracket and the vibrations were gone.... My main RPM range was 2200-2700 rpm...

Hey Carl.
I double checked and the hangers are about an inch below the body’s edge. Thanks!

[Gordon Levy]

Is the vibration rpm specific? If yes at what RPM

[mburger]

Hey Gordon!
It vibrates throughout the RPM range, however, you really feel it about 1,700 - 1,900 and then again at 2,500, then it'll get a little better before getting progressively worse heading towards 4k.

[bobl]

Here’s a trick that may help with your diagnoses. Place a clear cup of water on the engine. The water will oscillate when there is vibration. (If it vibrates off you’ve got a really bad vibration). Take a video showing the tach and water as you slowly rev the engine. That will give you documentation of how severe and at what rpm it vibrates. It works really well.
If I understand your post, you ran the engine with only the balancer and flywheel, no clutch and it still vibrated. If so then that rules out everything external to the engine. I have chased a similar problem and determined the crankshaft flange was slightly undersized, so it didn’t center the flywheel correctly. The bolts don’t center it. A little bit of runout can cause a lot of vibration. I guess it’s not out of the realm of possibility that the flywheel could have shifted? Beyond that seems like it has to be internal to the engine. Maybe there was heavy metal added to the crank for balancing that came off? Somehow a connecting rod got bent, (hydrolock), crank bent for some odd reason?

Bob

[Gordon Levy]

message sent

[mburger]

If I understand your post, you ran the engine with only the balancer and flywheel, no clutch and it still vibrated. If so then that rules out everything external to the engine.

Bob

You are correct. The only thing external remaining are the injectors but I can’t think of what would create a vibration from injectors. I’ve verified proper fuel pressure set to 58 per my Pro-Flo requirements. (450hp max)
Thanks for the video idea!

[mburger]

message sent

Got it! Thank you!

[bobl]

You are correct. The only thing external remaining are the injectors but I can’t think of what would create a vibration from injectors. I’ve verified proper fuel pressure set to 58 per my Pro-Flo requirements. (450hp max)
Thanks for the video idea!

Uneven firing or misfiring could cause a vibration. But it seems to me if you can rev the engine past the vibration point and then let off and still pick up the vibration on decel that it would rule that out since there is no load.

[mburger]

Uneven firing or misfiring could cause a vibration. But it seems to me if you can rev the engine past the vibration point and then let off and still pick up the vibration on decel that it would rule that out since there is no load.

Vibration on decel. Great point. It does vibrate on decel.

[klawrence]

compression check all cylinders...may have bent a push rod. just a guess.

[klawrence]

what is your valve train ? hydraulic lifters, maybe one failed. Either way a compression check would be the next test to rule out the valvetrain.

[CraigS]

A friend had a problem w/ the surfaces on the crank that run against the thrust bearings not being machined properly. So the bearings wore very quickly which allowed the crank to move forward and back. It is usually fairly easy to pry the crank forward w/ a lever behind the crank pulley or just by pushing the clutch pedal down. You will need to get creative to figure a way to push it back. I don't know the exact spec but it is somewhere in the .007-.010 inch range so it doesn't move much.

[Jeff33Ford]

Have you verified spark to every cylinder? Also similar issues can occur if the cam timing is off in relation to the distributor. If your cam was set to 0 degrees, it may less likely to shift but can happen. This causes the distributor to be off as well. Have you put a timing light on it and see if the advance is correct during acceleration?

[mburger]

A friend had a problem w/ the surfaces on the crank that run against the thrust bearings not being machined properly. So the bearings wore very quickly which allowed the crank to move forward and back. It is usually fairly easy to pry the crank forward w/ a lever behind the crank pulley or just by pushing the clutch pedal down. You will need to get creative to figure a way to push it back. I don't know the exact spec but it is somewhere in the .007-.010 inch range so it doesn't move much.

Interesting. Would have been easier to check while we had the flywheel exposed!

[mburger]

Have you verified spark to every cylinder? Also similar issues can occur if the cam timing is off in relation to the distributor. If your cam was set to 0 degrees, it may less likely to shift but can happen. This causes the distributor to be off as well. Have you put a timing light on it and see if the advance is correct during acceleration?

Verified that when #1 is at TDC by the rocker arms, the distributor was pointing right at #1 as it should. We’ve only verified full advance at 3k. Also verified spark and I forgot I sent a pic of each plug to BP as requested.

[Fman]

I am sure you have already done this and run the diagnostics on the PF4 tablet, I had injector come off on my PF4 which was causing your symptoms (#6 cylinder). Popped connector back on and all was good. Have you also checked around your spark plugs to make sure your boots are not burned and possibly grounding out on the header?

[mburger]

I am sure you have already done this and run the diagnostics on the PF4 tablet, I had injector come off on my PF4 which was causing your symptoms (#6 cylinder). Popped connector back on and all was good. Have you also checked around your spark plugs to make sure your boots are not burned and possibly grounding out on the header?

Actually, I haven't run the diags. I forgot about it since splitting the engine/transmission is so much easier. :p
I did verify good burn at all cylinders with plug pics sent to BP.

I am going to make a video using a plastic cup of water on the air cleaner and the RPM displayed next to it on my tablet.
Also do a compression check.

[Gordon Levy]

Just for giggles check your firing order and make sure you don't have a couple wires crossed.

[Jeff33Ford]

Verified that when #1 is at TDC by the rocker arms, the distributor was pointing right at #1 as it should. We’ve only verified full advance at 3k. Also verified spark and I forgot I sent a pic of each plug to BP as requested.

Just to elaborate on what I was saying. If you verified #1 with the rockers then the distributor would be correct. If the cam has shifted in relation to the crank then the #1 piston would not be in TDC. It only takes a few degrees and it throws the timing of the dist off. A usual side effect is some popping with a sudden decel. But this can depend on which way the cam shifted.
Just another thing to check if all other options have been exhausted.

[ggunter]

According to Blueprint these engines are 28 oz externally balanced. I know you said you replaced your old balancer. Is your new one the 28 oz external balance? Just a thought. My 347 vibrated on decel when new and went away after a few hundred miles...Go figure.

[mburger]

According to Blueprint these engines are 28 oz externally balanced. I know you said you replaced your old balancer. Is your new one the 28 oz external balance? Just a thought. My 347 vibrated on decel when new and went away after a few hundred miles...Go figure.

Thanks for the input. It’s appreciated. Yes, this is an ACT externally balanced 28 ounce flywheel from Mike Forte. Ditto for my very expensive dampener But the dampener came from Summit.

Needed to clean up a few things on the car this morning but I am getting close to a video.

[Rickysnickers]

Hello mburger. I hope you still aren't having issues with your PF4. :)

[mburger]

Hello mburger. I hope you still aren't having issues with your PF4. :)

HAHA! Actually the PF4 is doing well! Just a little vibration issue. ;)

[BluePrintEngines]

Hello Mark,

We are currently working with two techs on this matter. Ken and Johnny have been working very hard to get this issue resolved as soon as possible. I apologize we are experiencing this issue.

Thank You, BluePrint Engines

[mburger]

Thanks BluePrint.

Hey all.
It was suggested to me by someone who’s opinion I trust, that I remove the oil filter and cut it open. So that is what I will do. IF there is metal in the filter, we will stop and the long block goes back to BluePrint. Ken agreed with the plan.
If the filter is clear, we are going to install my original flywheel that was tested and balanced by BluePrint. According to BP, my flywheel was out of balance by 1.4oz. (40g) If it still vibrates, the long block will go back to BP. Ken is in agreement.
If the engine no longer vibrates, then we’re done, with no explanation of why it would take 6,000 miles for the vibration to appear.

[BradCraig]

I may be off-base and haven't fully read this thread, but I had an annoying vibration a few years ago on my '67 Camaro and it ended up being pinion angle. Something else to consider before you tear an engine out.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw you stated that it occurs in the driveway. :-)

[Sdonnel]

1.4 oz. may not seem like much, but remember the radius of the flywheel. That would be a major imbalance. Not sure why it took 6,000 miles other than maybe it was causing some early wear on bearing surfaces and they finally reached their limit. Hope you find it soon.

[BadAsp427]

Thanks BluePrint.

Hey all.
It was suggested to me by someone who’s opinion I trust, that I remove the oil filter and cut it open. So that is what I will do. IF there is metal in the filter, we will stop and the long block goes back to BluePrint. Ken agreed with the plan.
If the filter is clear, we are going to install my original flywheel that was tested and balanced by BluePrint. According to BP, my flywheel was out of balance by 1.4oz. (40g) If it still vibrates, the long block will go back to BP. Ken is in agreement.
If the engine no longer vibrates, then we’re done, with no explanation of why it would take 6,000 miles for the vibration to appear.

Sounds like you have a good plan in place. May need to get another mug and blow the foam off again while this all transpires...

[GoDadGo]

Good Luck!

We all hope you find the issue sooner than later.

[mburger]

Sounds like you have a good plan in place. May need to get another mug and blow the foam off again while this all transpires...

HAHAHA - Yes, I think I should!

[mburger]

Good Luck!

We all hope you find the issue sooner than later.

Thank you Steve! Very much appreciate it!

[mburger]

I removed the oil filter. I drained the oil from the filter through cheesecloth. The oil was very clean with no debris caught in the cheesecloth. I also examined the filter element and it too looked very good. No debris of any kind. The filter and oil looked so clean that I am not suspecting bearing damage but have not ruled out other damage within the long block. We will learn more once I receive my flywheel back and install it on the engine. That won’t be for a week but likely more.
Can’t tell you how much I appreciate all of your input and well wishes. You don’t find much of this on the Facebook groups. Blueprint thus far has been great as well.

[bobl]

Did they provide the flywheel or did you buy it elsewhere? They had to use a flywheel or flexplate to balance it originally.

[mburger]

Did they provide the flywheel or did you buy it elsewhere? They had to use a flywheel or flexplate to balance it originally.

I bought the long block through Mike Forte who supplied the flywheel. I purchased my Pro-Flo 4 through Mike as well. Mike installed everything and then put it on his dyno. BluePrint requested my flywheel back so QC could check it, and re-balance it if it was out more than 2g of 28oz. Apparently BluePrint’s flywheels are within 2g tolerance. They said mine was out 40g, balanced it to their specs and are sending it back to me.
Now, I have another ACT lighter weight flywheel on the engine now, and it still vibrates. So because of that, and the fact it didn’t vibrate for 6k miles, I’m not confident my original flywheel will fix it.
I sure as heck don’t have any answers but I’m in the hole about $1,000 troubleshooting this.
I bought my long block from BluePrint because of their warranty and customer service, hoping I’d never need it, so I’m confident they’ll figure it out.

[SJDave]

I had a vibration problem on mine also that was a bugger to troubleshoot. Wasted a lot of time and money trying to solve it, then I decided per the suggestion of someone on the forum to have the flywheel checked again for balance and the pressure plate assembly. Flywheel was perfect, Pressure Plate assembly was out 15 grams which was fixed by welding on some steel to the OD of the housing. Problem solved. This wasn't a high end racing clutch or anything, just a king Cobra clutch made by Valeo, my luck sucks!

[Nigel Allen]

G'day Mark,

SJDave's comments got me thinking, could something have gone wrong with the clutch assembly? Caveat - I make a better sparky than a mechanic. Also the clutch on my car was the only item that I did not have anything to do with.

Because the vibration has evolved over time, my thoughts went this way; is it possible for for the wearing components of the clutch to wear / fail in such a way as to go out of balance?

Best of luck getting to the bottom of it. I can certainly understand the frustration.

Kind regards

Nigel

[mburger]

I had a vibration problem on mine also that was a bugger to troubleshoot. Wasted a lot of time and money trying to solve it, then I decided per the suggestion of someone on the forum to have the flywheel checked again for balance and the pressure plate assembly. Flywheel was perfect, Pressure Plate assembly was out 15 grams which was fixed by welding on some steel to the OD of the housing. Problem solved. This wasn't a high end racing clutch or anything, just a king Cobra clutch made by Valeo, my luck sucks!

Good thoughts, however, the engine vibrates with nothing but the flywheel on the back and the balancer out front.

[mburger]

G'day Mark,

Because the vibration has evolved over time, my thoughts went this way; is it possible for for the wearing components of the clutch to wear / fail in such a way as to go out of balance?

Nigel

Hey Nigel! Good to hear from you again.
Rather than develop over time, my vibration was not there to my destination and suddenly there on my way back. As mentioned above, the engine vibrates without the clutch assembly.
Hope you are doing well!

[Railroad]

Do not know if this has been considered and I have not read the complete thread.
Any chance the motor mounts are loose, shifted the engine or allowed part of the drive line, ie block, headers, exhaust, bellhousing, trans, shifter, etc to contact the frame.
Regardless of the causes, I would feel good about BPE checking the balance.

[mburger]

Do not know if this has been considered and I have not read the complete thread.
Any chance the motor mounts are loose, shifted the engine or allowed part of the drive line, ie block, headers, exhaust, bellhousing, trans, shifter, etc to contact the frame.
Regardless of the causes, I would feel good about BPE checking the balance.

Thanks for your suggestion. To answer your question, there’s no chance the motor mounts are loose causing a shift in any part of the driveline. :D I originally was using Energy Suspension engine and transmission mounts but BluePrint strongly recommended switching to the softer OEM mounts, which I did. The mounts were tight coming out and the new ones are tight now.
I received my original flywheel back, rebalanced to BPE specifications. I understand 2g. I do feel good that they balanced it, but I’m currently running a high quality ACT flywheel with no change in the vibration.
I feel we are getting close to an answer, and I know the folks at BPE are doing their thing to resolve this.

[StoneyCreekCobra]

This type of helpful and informative exchange is very encouraging. I have only just begun my journey down the factory five path, but I have always wanted a cobra. I like the FFR offering, fortunately, and being from Canada am finding out that my choices are limited. So this level of support from like minded individuals is going to make my decision so much easier. I have already contacted Ryan so I am well equipped to begin the task of planning the build. I am also looking into the build school asd I believe that there is no such thing as too much practice. Thanks, again, for putting me at ease. John

[mburger]

John, when I was in the market for a Cobra, I knew I wanted a Factory Five for this reason, community support. Of course, Dave Smith created a company that enables people like me, to get into my dream car without spending 6 figures. For several reasons, I opted to purchase a pre-built Cobra. With help, I’ve torn it down to the frame and rebuilt or replaced everything except the rear and transmission.
I would encourage you to search the forums for build threads, specifically from “Edwardb.” (Paul) There are many skilled builders on this forum and “Edwardb” has done an excellent job of documenting his builds.
Good luck on your future build!

[mburger]

Today we’ll replace the flywheel and check for the vibration. If it is still there, we pull the engine and contact Blueprint for the return instructions. This flywheel is my original that Blueprint said was 40g out of balance.They rebalanced it.
Henry knows how much I don’t want to do this, and Im pretty sure he’d rather be doing almost anything else as well so once again I find myself appreciative for his help.

Update later today!

[Nigel Allen]

G'day Mark,

Wishing you (and Henry) the best of luck.

Cheers, Nigel

[GoDadGo]

....Good Luck Wrenching Today!
Remember To Watch Your Pinkies, Henry Also!

[capt1black]

Good luck Mark. Sending my best thoughts.

[J R Jones]

mburger, Watching from the cheap seats, I have been pondering dynamics and thresholds preceding this condition.
What redline have you established? Ever have an excessive incident?
Do you have a rev limiter? What RPM is it set at?
Have you experienced fuel or water flooding?
Any loss of coolant?
jim

[mburger]

mburger, Watching from the cheap seats, I have been pondering dynamics and thresholds preceding this condition.
What redline have you established? Ever have an excessive incident?
Do you have a rev limiter? What RPM is it set at?
Have you experienced fuel or water flooding?
Any loss of coolant?
jim

Hey Jim. My rev limiter has always been set rather low at 5300. No fuel or water flooding. No loss of coolant. I just within the past week removed the oil filter, cut it open and both the oil and filter clean.
We just installed my original fly wheel with absolutely no change in the vibration. The first hotspot, if you will, is 1700 to 1800 and then a lot of vibration at 2500 where it trails off after that but as you’re approaching and going through 3000 to 4 I have to back it down because of the vibration.

We have to pull the motor and send it back. Starting that now.

[capt1black]

Crap, sorry it did not fix it. I know this is a huge pain in the *** but at least now it will get resolved. Good luck.

[Gordon Levy]

Bummer, not unexpected but a bummer.

[J R Jones]

Hey Jim. My rev limiter has always been set rather low at 5300. No fuel or water flooding. No loss of coolant. I just within the past week removed the oil filter, cut it open and both the oil and filter clean.
We just installed my original fly wheel with absolutely no change in the vibration. The first hotspot, if you will, is 1700 to 1800 and then a lot of vibration at 2500 where it trails off after that but as you’re approaching and going through 3000 to 4 I have to back it down because of the vibration.

We have to pull the motor and send it back. Starting that now.

Mark,
Yes 5300 RPM is rather low, your choice....
This is so basic, you have likely been through it early-on: have you looked for run-out in everything that rotates? harmonic balancer, flywheel, clutch, alternator, A/C, drive pulleys?
You know about using a stethoscope or screwdriver to your ear, touching parts as they run, looking for noise? Have you tried that (with a screwdriver) to investigate if the vibration amplitude is greater on one part of the engine vs all other areas?
jim

[Jeff33Ford]

Wow, what a PITA. At least you have a vendor that will work with you. So many horror stories of people left high and dry. Good luck and keep the updates coming. I want to see you up and running.

[mburger]

Mark,
Yes 5300 RPM is rather low, your choice....
This is so basic, you have likely been through it early-on: have you looked for run-out in everything that rotates? harmonic balancer, flywheel, clutch, alternator, A/C, drive pulleys?
You know about using a stethoscope or screwdriver to your ear, touching parts as they run, looking for noise? Have you tried that (with a screwdriver) to investigate if the vibration amplitude is greater on one part of the engine vs all other areas?
jim

Hey Jim.
I did the stethoscope thing, I’ve replaced the harmonic balancer, I replaced the flywheel. The engine vibrates with nothing but the flywheel attached and the serpentine belt off. As you can imagine I’ve gone round and round trying to think of what could have caused this especially after 6000 miles without the vibrations.
Tomorrow morning I’ll contact Blueprint and start the return process

[Jeff Kleiner]

Sorry to hear that you’ve hit a dead end Mark (and Henry). After all you tried earlier though I’m not shocked but I know Blueprint will get you sorted out. It will be interesting to see what they find…if we’re going to start a pool my guess is that it flung a slug of balancing Mallory out of the crank.

Jeff

[J R Jones]

Hey Jim.
I did the stethoscope thing, I’ve replaced the harmonic balancer, I replaced the flywheel. The engine vibrates with nothing but the flywheel attached and the serpentine belt off. As you can imagine I’ve gone round and round trying to think of what could have caused this especially after 6000 miles without the vibrations.
Tomorrow morning I’ll contact Blueprint and start the return process

Mark,
I saw your comments on replacing parts on the ends of the crankshaft, but a run-out problem is not always identified or resolved that way. What came to mind is my brother purchasing one of my road racing SBFs. It was freshened when he bought it and lasted for several thousand miles on the street. It developed a vibration that eventually resulted in the flywheel mounting flange breaking off the crankshaft. The flange was running-out prior to separation. That failure was not unique, it happened before and since.
jim

[mburger]

Thanks Jeff much appreciated. I’ll be interested to hear what they find as well.
I don’t know what their inspection process is like but I know they will not run a returned engine so after it arrives they will be tearing it down.

[nucjd19]

This was such an educational thread. Thank you mburger for keeping us up to date.

[GoDadGo]

If we’re going to start a pool my guess is that it flung a slug of balancing Mallory out of the crank.

I'd bet money that they'll find that slug if they pull the pan; however, taking that action may void any warranty should one currently exist.

Good Luck!

[frankeeski]

Mark, was the oil pan ever dropped during any of the parts replacements? If not, my guess is (and it's just a guess) this is a conn rod bolt that has either dropped into the pan or is still attached and it's weight dynamic is throwing off the engine balance. The reason I believe it's that and not run-out in the crank is the rpm differential of the vibration. Sorry that you haven't found it yet.

[ptstew]

Mark, I hope things move quickly for you now so you can get back on the road.

[J R Jones]

In my racing and engine development experience I have not experienced "rotating part" separation or fragmentation without significant drama and collateral damage.
Without data and/or hard evidence a customer complaint on NVH is subjective. It would be routine for an OEM to do a running evaluation prior to devoting resources to chasing a non-professional observation.

Believe it or not some customers fabricate stories to substantiate their unstated agenda. I have been on the crappy end of that stick.
That said, customer satisfaction can be a priority and unwarranted adjustments have been made. The short and economical BRE solution could be to adsorb this engine and ship a new assembly.
The worse outcome would be for Mark to receive a new engine and the problem does not go away. Ultimately finding the objective evidence is the best solution.
jim

[mburger]

Mark, was the oil pan ever dropped during any of the parts replacements? If not, my guess is (and it's just a guess) this is a conn rod bolt that has either dropped into the pan or is still attached and it's weight dynamic is throwing off the engine balance. The reason I believe it's that and not run-out in the crank is the rpm differential of the vibration. Sorry that you haven't found it yet.

Thanks Frank! I didn’t do anything with the engine I wasn’t asked to do. I resisted the temptation to go off in different directions then what was the plan of attack. We did have good dialogue discussing options and potential causes.

[GoDadGo]

You're going to have to drain the engine before you ship it, so you could eyeball the oil pan with a borescope?
Most will fit through a drain plug hole so why not take a peek if you have a scope handy.
They are a nice tool to have and are available at Harbor Freight.

[mburger]

You're going to have to drain the engine before you ship it, so you could eyeball the oil pan with a borescope.
Most will fit through a drain plug hole so why not take a peek if you have a scope handy.
They are a nice tool to have and they even have them at Harbor Freight.


Thanks Steve! I bought a Depstech scope and it works great. It runs with Wi-Fi so I can view the scope on any Wi-Fi enabled device. I can also take pictures change the brightness and it has multiple attachments like hooks and a magnet etc.
We’ve already drained both sumps and nothing obvious came out. We are about 30 minutes out from pulling the engine.
I’ve received the paperwork from Blueprint via email. I’m going to use the stand that came with the engine, bolt that to a skid, wrap it up and off she goes.

[Railroad]

I am going to bet the issue is with fuel delivery or ignition.

[narly1]

I might be way out here but what are you running in terms of a camshaft and valve springs? Wondering if there's a chance that the springs are too soft for the cam's lobe profile thus causing valve float which could manifest in the early stages as excessive vibration. Does the valvetrain noise/ticking sound excessive?

I mention this as I might be battling a similar issue with my 302.

Earl

[Ford & Jeep Fan]

...... It will be interesting to see what they find…if we’re going to start a pool my guess is that it flung a slug of balancing Mallory out of the crank.

Jeff

I'd put money on this as well. very easy to diagnose.

Hit the bottom of the empty oil pan with a rubber mallet and listen for something to bounce.

[rich grsc]

I might be way out here but what are you running in terms of a camshaft and valve springs? Wondering if there's a chance that the springs are too soft for the cam's lobe profile thus causing valve float which could manifest in the early stages as excessive vibration. Does the valvetrain noise/ticking sound excessive?

I mention this as I might be battling a similar issue with my 302.

Earl

You don't get valve float at 1800-2000 rpms or even around 3000

[NAZ]

159308

[narly1]

You don't get valve float at 1800-2000 rpms or even around 3000

Assuming that the valve springs are appropriate for the cam. But what if they were overly weak?

[mburger]

Assuming that the valve springs are appropriate for the cam. But what if they were overly weak?

This is a crate long block. The internals were configured and matched to produce an advertised 410hp. (Mine was 439hp)
To me, it doesn't seem possible that springs that would be so far out of spec for my cam, that there would be valve float under 3k, while the engine is able to make 439hp over 5,000 rpm.
:D

[Jeff Kleiner]

Assuming that the valve springs are appropriate for the cam. But what if they were overly weak?

If they were weak enough to allow float below 2000 you wouldn’t be able to get it to 3-4,000 where the secondary vibration comes in…

Jeff

[mburger]

I had a vibration problem on mine also that was a bugger to troubleshoot. Wasted a lot of time and money trying to solve it, then I decided per the suggestion of someone on the forum to have the flywheel checked again for balance and the pressure plate assembly. Flywheel was perfect, Pressure Plate assembly was out 15 grams which was fixed by welding on some steel to the OD of the housing. Problem solved. This wasn't a high end racing clutch or anything, just a king Cobra clutch made by Valeo, my luck sucks!

I am surprised that 15 g caused an issue big enough for you to notice. Mine was out 40 g but it didn’t make a difference with the vibration. Again, with only the flywheel and balancer on the engine it still vibrated just the same no worse and no better.

[frankb]

I also agree with Kleiner. Something "came off" (or possibly shifted on) the rotating assembly causing an internal imbalance, and since the engine is not destroyed, it is most likely a mallory slug as Jeff said.

[ibpilot]

I am following this thread with interest so please update when BP gets a chance to look at that engine. Also, I live just south of you in Naples so let me know if you need an extra wrench!

[mburger]

I am following this thread with interest so please update when BP gets a chance to look at that engine. Also, I live just south of you in Naples so let me know if you need an extra wrench!

That’s very generous of you. Thanks!
Henry, another friend and I pulled the engine. It is stripped down to the long block and tomorrow we’re going to schedule pickup.

[bobl]

Anxious to see what they find.

[mburger]

Me too!
FedEx freight is scheduled to pick it up tomorrow afternoon, and then we wait………. ��

[mburger]

FedEx came and took my poor baby away yesterday. This thread could use some pics.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159547&d=16410019

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159546&d=1641001905

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159543&d=1641001905

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=159545&d=1641001905

[nucjd19]

I see another engine sitting there begging to be installed....

[mburger]

I see another engine sitting there begging to be installed....

Ha. Actually the same engine. I had to remove my red Ford Racing VCs and install the original chrome Blueprint ones. I couldn’t ship it with anything not originally provided by Blueprint.

[Desertrat]

Hey everyone.

Once again I'm looking for input from those that know way more than me.

Problem:
347 Stroker with about 6k miles. Blueprint long block with Pro-Flo 4.
Engine dyno'd at 439hp/429tq. Started vibrating. One day it was ok, the next it was vibrating.
It vibrates throughout the RPM range, however, it is worse at about 1,700 - 1,900 and then again at 2,500, then it'll get a little better before getting progressively worse heading towards 4k.
It vibrates sitting in the driveway with the clutch in. No difference when driving.
The engine is running well otherwise.
If something worked, then it doesn't, something changed. Has to be. But what?

What I've done:
Started a warranty file with Blueprint. This is their long block.
Blueprint says it is not their long block because they can't think of anything in the long block that would make the engine vibrate.
If I push it, they'll likely take it back to test and then rebuild. I'm not wanting to do that due to the work involved and I won't see my engine back for many months most likely.
I sent my flywheel at their insistence to be checked that it is within 2gms of 28oz. If it isn't, they will make it so and send it back. (I have no use for it now)
Replaced the Energy Suspension Poly engine and transmission mounts with rubber OEM mounts. No difference and I hate them.
Replaced the flywheel from Mike Forte.
Replaced the balancer with a Fluidampr 650211.
Replaced plugs, wires, rotor and cap.
Replaced the Pro-Flo 4 ECU.
Sent pics of plugs to Blueprint and they verified looked good.
Verified timing with cylinder #1 rocker arms TDC.
Ran the engine with ONLY the balancer and flywheel - no serpentine belt. STILL VIBRATES.

Yes, I know it looks like I'm throwing parts at a problem, but some parts I already had, others were at the direction of Blueprint and some were out of sheer frustration, like the ECU, which I returned.

I am at a loss. I'm missing something. What else can I check?
I have not done a compression test recently, but I did when the engine had less than 1k on it, so I have possibly a break-in comparison. All cylinders were within 5%.

What say everyone?

I’m particularly interested in this thread …I completed my build Jan 21. Motor is a 347 stroker by Blueprint. I had fired up the motor in go kart stage, and felt some vibration, but without a body on there is so much noise, I thought the body would dampen things down. In go kart I didn’t push the motor hard, probably not getting over 2000 rpm. Fast forward to completion - I have a bad vibration at 2500 rpm, so bad it feels like the car will shake itself apart. The vibration is present in all gears, and also while stationary in neutral. My focus is on the engine balancing. I have called Blueprint to find out what the balancing specs are, don’t yet have specs for flywheel or flex plate, but they told me I have a 50oz balancer.
I see elsewhere in this thread references to the 347 having a 28oz balancer (from what I have read elsewhere “99.9% of strokers are 28oz flywheel and balancer”
Anyone got any definitive solution on flywheel, flexplate, harmonic balancer specs?

[first time builder]

Its been 3 weeks since engine was picked up , any response from BPE ?

[mburger]

Desertrat, 50oz does not sound right. If there is a specific reason to make your 347 a 50oz balance, I would have to defer to anyone else here with more knowledge. I have enough knowledge to say, that doesn't sound right and I would expect 28oz. (Or 28.2oz). Assuming you have a standard transmission, you have a flywheel not a flexplate. As you can see from my previous posts in this thread, I went above and beyond trying to eliminate anything not part of the long block. You are describing what my engine did. Bringing it to 4k felt like a rod was going to fly out so I never got it that high once the vibration started.
Once I replaced the flywheel and balancer and had the engine running with just those items, (serpentine belt off as well) and it still vibrated, I knew there was noting else I could do.
Best of luck finding the problem I wouldn't run it until you find the source of the issue and most importantly keep the communication going with Blueprint.

[mburger]

Its been 3 weeks since engine was picked up , any response from BPE ?

Here's the update, such as it is.

Blueprint received my engine January 6th at 10:42am.
I called them on Wednesday January 19th, just one day shy of 2 weeks that Blueprint had the engine.
I was told by Josh that I needed to speak with Ken, (Apparently the owner of my file) however, the engine inspection was complete and that Ken would call me back later that day or Thursday.
I called back in at 3:30pm on Thursday January 20th asking to speak with Ken as I hadn't heard from him but I was told Ken was out of the office. I was told he has a note to call me today, (the 20th) or Friday. I asked that someone else perhaps could give me the status but I was told I need to speak with Ken.

So, I'm still waiting for Ken to call me.
The End. :p

[first time builder]

Please keep us informed !

[mburger]

Please keep us informed !

Once I know anything, I'll post it up. If I'm quiet, it's only because there's nothing to add.
Trust me, after everything I (and my friends like Henry) went though and the money I spent troubleshooting this, there's no one more anxious to hear what the issue was than me.

This for sure is an odd problem, but BPE has an excellent reputation for customer service and FFR wouldn't have a relationship as they do with BPE if it were any different.
I also know Ken is extremely busy, and I trust Ken and Johnny will figure it out and make it right.

[ggunter]

I have seen 50 oz. harmonic balancers and flywheels for these engine but the norm is 28oz. Summit offers these combinations in balancers and flywheels. The difference I would think would be a different crank and rotating assy. that would warrant the heavier weight. I have been a Chevy man all my life and this is my first foray into the Ford world. I have been watching this thread closely as others. Can't wait to hear the end result. Assuming Blueprint tells you because they know it will go on here. Hope they do a quick turn around for you.

[J R Jones]

I have seen 50 oz. harmonic balancers and flywheels for these engine but the norm is 28oz. Summit offers these combinations in balancers and flywheels. The difference I would think would be a different crank and rotating assy. that would warrant the heavier weight. I have been a Chevy man all my life and this is my first foray into the Ford world. I have been watching this thread closely as others. Can't wait to hear the end result. Assuming Blueprint tells you because they know it will go on here. Hope they do a quick turn around for you.

gg, Fifth amendment is popular these days as are alternative facts.
jim

[Desertrat]

Desertrat, 50oz does not sound right. If there is a specific reason to make your 347 a 50oz balance, I would have to defer to anyone else here with more knowledge. I have enough knowledge to say, that doesn't sound right and I would expect 28oz. (Or 28.2oz). Assuming you have a standard transmission, you have a flywheel not a flexplate. As you can see from my previous posts in this thread, I went above and beyond trying to eliminate anything not part of the long block. You are describing what my engine did. Bringing it to 4k felt like a rod was going to fly out so I never got it that high once the vibration started.
Once I replaced the flywheel and balancer and had the engine running with just those items, (serpentine belt off as well) and it still vibrated, I knew there was noting else I could do.
Best of luck finding the problem I wouldn't run it until you find the source of the issue and most importantly keep the communication going with Blueprint.

Spoke with Ken at Blueprint. He confirmed the motor should have 50oz balancing. He mentioned that when they dyno the motor they don’t do it with the customers flywheel and balancer installed, explaining why a vibration may occur if incorrect parts are installed after dyno. I have to send details of my installed balancer and flywheel to Ken. The balancer is easy, flywheel more of a problem. I have a one piece separator between engine and bell housing with no removable dust cover, therefore to see the part number on the flywheel I would have to split engine/ trans, probably meaning pulling the engine out. I don’t really want to do this if I can avoid it. By removing the starter I was able to get a measurement on the balancing weight, 4 1/8” x 1 1/2”. Anyone know if this is a 50oz or 28oz flywheel?

[Gordon Levy]

That big would be a 50oz weight

[Desertrat]

That big would be a 50oz weight

Thanks! Hopefully can avoid pulling the engine.

[Jeff33Ford]

Thanks! Hopefully can avoid pulling the engine.

Or maybe you can get a cheap inspection camera in there to read the P/N??
I got a cheap one from HF a long time ago and have used it quite a bit.

[mburger]

Spoke with Ken at Blueprint. He mentioned that when they dyno the motor they don’t do it with the customers flywheel and balancer installed, explaining why a vibration may occur if incorrect parts are installed after dyno.

Oh boy - Here we go again.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I want to be clear about this.
I know you were not referring to my BPE long block in any way, but BPE will need proof of any part added to a long block by the customer as NOT being the source of the issue.
When you buy a long block, you HAVE to install basic components to make it a running engine. (Obviously)
Just understand, ANY issue you have going forward, is up to you to prove without a doubt the issue is not from your "incorrect" parts.
For this reason, I would STRONGLY encourage anyone buying a BPE, to purchase the entire dressed engine. Life will be SO much easier should you have a problem.
I'm already out $1,000 not to mention well over 8 weeks without my engine during prime driving season.

UPDATE FROM BPE - They found no issues and the long block looked good. They are going to rebuild it and balance it using my flywheel and balancer "to 0" and ship it back to me.

I have documented video of my engine vibrating like a banshee, assuming banshees vibrate badly.
My engine vibrated exactly the same with two different flywheels and balancers. Same vibration.
I won't go through my initial post again, but suffice to say, there were no incorrect parts on my engine. Period.

So we have a long block that looks great. They'll rebuild it, put it on the dyno and ship it back to me.
I realize this helps no one, but I have nothing else to add to this thread.
I feel like I brought everyone to a dead end here, but there's nothing more I can do at this point, but wait to get my long block back so we can get it back in the car and DRIVE IT!

[Jeff Kleiner]

So Mark, understand that I’m not trying to stir anything up but just want to clarify—-at this point BP has not offered an explanation or hypothesis of why this vibration occurred?

Jeff

[mburger]

So Mark, understand that I’m not trying to stir anything up but just want to clarify—-at this point BP has not offered an explanation or hypothesis of why this vibration occurred?

Jeff

Understood Jeff, you’re good.
At this time, no. Ken is the owner of my warranty file and all he said was, everything looked “Good, actually very good”.
That was the extent of it.

EDIT: Mods, feel free to close this thread if you like as I’ve nothing else to contribute here.
While I don’t have an answer as to the cause of my issue, I am pleased BPE checked it and is rebuilding it. Not much more I can ask for as a customer.

[CraigS]

So, if they didn't find anything wrong, why will they rebuild it? Any idea what their rebuild consists of?

[ggunter]

I will say one thing they did a quick turn around. And yes a complete motor takes all the finger pointing out of the issue. Which is why I went that way. I have had three issues that they dealt with fairly quickly, two small and one big. In each case the warranty guys did what they could to make me happy. They watch these threads closely and don't want negative press, so I would think they would try to make any warranty go to the head of the line. In my shop that is exactly how we do it. We don't want the customer any more upset then he already is. So unless it's blatant negligence or customer abuse we get right on it and get it back. I hope it comes back soon so you can enjoy the spring weather soon to come.

[mburger]

So, if they didn't find anything wrong, why will they rebuild it? Any idea what their rebuild consists of?

In order to inspect it, they need to tear it down.
As part of their warranty service, they will rebuild the long block to factory specs and it will be returned as if I just bought it.
They are also going further and balancing it with MY flywheel and balancer.
While I don't have a complete list of parts to be replaced, they will replace the bearings, gaskets, lifters, pushrods, rings, oil pump etc. etc. and will strip the heads down and rebuild those as well.
I'm very pleased with that!

[rich grsc]

So, if they didn't find anything wrong, why will they rebuild it? Any idea what their rebuild consists of?

Here's my take on all this. I have a 331 stroker, 0 imbalance, correct flywheel and balancer, smooth as silk from 800 all the way to the limiter at 6800. I have not heard of a 50 oz imbalance on a stroker, usually 28? My guess is that this had a bad crank that wasn't balanced correctly from the manufacturer and it slipped through QC, that or the info as what it was balanced too, got switched up. As to why it's being rebuilt, the only way to be 100% sure everything is correct. Running an engine out of balance will beat the bearing up badly, and lead eventually to a broken crank. The fact that they are balancing it to 0, makes me think it wasn't correct to begin with, hopefully with a new crank.

[J R Jones]

I read Mark's comment about cost at $1000. Who is covering the substantial rebuild costs? Shipping?
This is an expensive engine for someone, and a mystery for Mark.
Every start-up will be accompanied by anxiety for some time to come.
jim

[mburger]

I read Mark's comment about cost at $1000. Who is covering the substantial rebuild costs? Shipping?
This is an expensive engine for someone, and a mystery for Mark.
Every start-up will be accompanied by anxiety for some time to come.
jim

Hey Jim.
The ~ $1,000 is on me. Some of that was spending more for what I thought would be a better balancer, and spending more on a flywheel based on available stock etc.
One person I've been intentionally leaving out (mostly) of this is Henry. He and I have worked together on this for many many hours.
You know what's involved in splitting the engine/trans to replace a flywheel, then have it still vibrate. Pull the engine, then strip it down to the long block and pack it for transport.
Plus all the troubleshooting hours.
My time is valuable and Henry's even more so.

BPE shipped both ways at their expense my original flywheel to check the balance.
BPE shipped my long block back at their cost.

This has been very expensive for both BPE and Henry and I.

[ggunter]

My correction, I thought they had already gotten to it and they were on the way to shipping it back. If I understand what the original post said, is it was running good with no vibration and it started all of a sudden. The only thing that makes cense is what Jeff said about a piece of mallory might have been slung out of the crank. And when you replaced the balancer and flywheel It doesn't leave much except something like that. Anyway I hope it's a quick turnaround. It would be nice to know what they actually find.

[mburger]

Here's my take on all this. I have a 331 stroker, 0 imbalance, correct flywheel and balancer, smooth as silk from 800 all the way to the limiter at 6800. I have not heard of a 50 oz imbalance on a stroker, usually 28? My guess is that this had a bad crank that wasn't balanced correctly from the manufacturer and it slipped through QC, that or the info as what it was balanced too, got switched up. As to why it's being rebuilt, the only way to be 100% sure everything is correct. Running an engine out of balance will beat the bearing up badly, and lead eventually to a broken crank. The fact that they are balancing it to 0, makes me think it wasn't correct to begin with, hopefully with a new crank.

Good point about the crank Rich.
I'm expecting to have a much smoother engine, but I don't know enough to know if a 331 with a shorter stroke vs a 347 with a longer stroke makes a difference on the "smoothness" meter.
I'm also hoping to use less oil.

My only disappointment is not having an answer for everyone. I'm not wired to just walk away from a problem without a known cause.

[zee]

In case someone from Blueprint is reading this.

I was hesitant to get the engine+transmission package from BP because I wanted to find someone local to build it for me. Threads like these tipped me towards BP. It is a mystery problem but paying for that costly shipping and doing a teardown/rebuild is all I'd expect from BP if I had this problem.

So order placed with BP.

[rich grsc]

Good point about the crank Rich.
I'm expecting to have a much smoother engine, but I don't know enough to know if a 331 with a shorter stroke vs a 347 with a longer stroke makes a difference on the "smoothness" meter.
I'm also hoping to use less oil.

My only disappointment is not having an answer for everyone. I'm not wired to just walk away from a problem without a known cause.
The size of the engine isn't important, ALL engines need to be balanced correctly or they will destroy themselves. The thing is, this isn't something new or exotic, engines, or I should say cranks, have been balanced since they were invented. Seems odd they cant't say "why".

[CP82AERO]

Not to beat a dead horse but BPE does owe you root cause, whether a mallory slug fell out, or some other driver of the vibration. There are now many of us on this thread whose build could be impacted by the cause.
For what its' worth I've built a 427/351W whose crank is internally balanced and so I should not need any extra mass (28/50g) on my flywheel--but I've yet to start it up.
This forum rocks, and as a newbie I'm looking forward to paying back as warrants during my build.

[Rickysnickers]

Mark,
I've been following this since your posts on Edelbrock's forum. I'll be interested to hear how the engine runs once you get it back and in the car, driving. Please do not close the thread as we would like to know.

rick

[cob427sc]

I agree. I would expect they would come back to you with some explanation and keep us all informed as to what they may say. I have purchased several engines from BPE and have always been happy with their product and service.

[Desertrat]

I have an endoscope which I have tried to use to get a part number. The problem is that I have a one piece separator plate between the engine and bell housing. If there was a removable dust cover, I would be able to see the flywheel. By removing the starter I was able to just squeeze the endoscope in, but the viewing angle is such that seeing anything on the flywheel is not possible. All I was able to do was measure the balance weight as it passed through the starter opening.

[Desertrat]

Oh boy - Here we go again.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I want to be clear about this.
I know you were not referring to my BPE long block in any way, but BPE will need proof of any part added to a long block by the customer as NOT being the source of the issue.
When you buy a long block, you HAVE to install basic components to make it a running engine. (Obviously)
Just understand, ANY issue you have going forward, is up to you to prove without a doubt the issue is not from your "incorrect" parts.
For this reason, I would STRONGLY encourage anyone buying a BPE, to purchase the entire dressed engine. Life will be SO much easier should you have a problem.
I'm already out $1,000 not to mention well over 8 weeks without my engine during prime driving season.

UPDATE FROM BPE - They found no issues and the long block looked good. They are going to rebuild it and balance it using my flywheel and balancer "to 0" and ship it back to me.

I have documented video of my engine vibrating like a banshee, assuming banshees vibrate badly.
My engine vibrated exactly the same with two different flywheels and balancers. Same vibration.
I won't go through my initial post again, but suffice to say, there were no incorrect parts on my engine. Period.

So we have a long block that looks great. They'll rebuild it, put it on the dyno and ship it back to me.
I realize this helps no one, but I have nothing else to add to this thread.
I feel like I brought everyone to a dead end here, but there's nothing more I can do at this point, but wait to get my long block back so we can get it back in the car and DRIVE IT!

I think we got a little miscommunication here. What I was referring to is that in my case, I bought the complete engine/transmission from BPE. I couldn’t figure out why any vibration would not have been picked up during the dyno testing. But Ken told me that when they dyno the engine, they do not have the customers flywheel or balancer on the motor, these are installed after the dyno, therefore there is a possibility that BPE installed a wrong part before the unit was shipped out. I was not referring to items installed by customers after they received their motor.

[mburger]

Final update!!
Received my long block back from BP Thursday March 10th. Henry and our mutual friend Dean, (Spanky) helped get the engine installed and then Henry went to town spending many hours getting everything reconnected as well as finishing up my rear bumper installation. You forget how much there is to reconnect until you have it all in front of you again.
Henry worked extra hard between other customer jobs getting my car ready for the drive to Texas next week!
No way I could have done this without him. Thanks Henry!
Also thanks to Mike Forte for the upgraded T5Z! It’s great having a normal 1st gear and boy 5th is definitely a highway cruise gear. I have more clean up to do in the engine bay and the turkey pan should go back on as well.

For BluePrint’s part, while they couldn’t find the cause for my issue, they completely rebuilt my long block and is running great and no longer has the vibration. BP paid to have to the engine shipped to them and then back to me. They balanced the engine using my flywheel and my dampener which is not something they normally do.
While I’m disappointed the source of the vibration wasn’t found, they treated me well and I couldn’t be more pleased with them.

https://youtu.be/Z5_twlyILuk

https://youtu.be/RcTku6c3UxM

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=164487&d=1648183916

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=164485&d=1648183916

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=164486&d=1648183916

[egchewy79]

glad to hear that you're up and running again.

[ptstew]

Great news, Mark. I have been looking for this update, as I know you have , for quite a while. Enjoy!

[bobl]

Great to hear it's all working correctly. Look forward to meeting you next week.

Bob

[CraigS]

Fantastic news. I was wondering about BPE throughout this thread but I have to say, I am not wondering any more. I worked as a Lexus dealer tech for 20+ years and went to a lot of their training. One of the Lexus things said, (paraphrasing here) was we try our best to be perfect but mistakes will happen. What can separate a good company from a great company is how it responds to mistakes. Looks to me like BPE is a Lexus style great company. Way to go BPE!

[Nigel Allen]

Awesome stuff, Mark. Hopefully that adventure is finished.

Cheers,

Nigel

[GoDadGo]

Great News Mr. B!
.Can't wait to see you & Henry on Tuesday!

[capt1black]

Happy for you Mark. Enjoy the ride.