View Full Version : Glitter in oil-new motor
aarvig
11-10-2021, 10:44 AM
I have a dart block 427 Windsor. I put about 1000 miles on it this summer. First oil change was at 300 miles and second oil change was 700 miles later and on the second oil change I cut open the oil filter just to have a look. There was no metal in the filter pleats but I did notice “glitter” in the oil. Engine runs great. Is this normal on new engines?
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Do you have a magnetic oil drain plug? If not, I recommend one. That would catch metal that gets through the filter.
aarvig
11-10-2021, 10:58 AM
Do you have a magnetic oil drain plug? If not, I recommend one. That would catch metal that gets through the filter.
I do have two magnetic drain plugs. There is no build up of metal on the plugs. There is a black smudge that comes of when I wipe them clean but no metal flakes.
toadster
11-10-2021, 11:36 AM
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/ cheap way to tell what your motor is doing chemically
klawrence
11-10-2021, 12:06 PM
second the blackstone...not being on the magnets yet in the oil filter tells me that is aluminum or some coating off a bearing. Proper distributor gear ?
aarvig
11-10-2021, 12:21 PM
second the blackstone...not being on the magnets yet in the oil filter tells me that is aluminum or some coating off a bearing. Proper distributor gear ?
Distributor gear is steel and there is a standard volume oil pump in the pan. I haven't pulled the dist yet but that may be next.
Sdonnel
11-10-2021, 01:46 PM
Not sure how much glitter you are seeing. Is it a large amount, or just a film? I work for Dana and we do a special coating process on our gears that is black and wears away during break in. It's sole purpose is to hold oil at the gear mesh point during break in. It shows as a grey fuzz on a magnet and does not hurt anything. Keep in mind an axle is probably more forgiving than an internal combustion engine. Hope this helps.
Scott
first time builder
11-10-2021, 02:44 PM
I would advise the engine builder .
aarvig
11-10-2021, 03:16 PM
I would advise the engine builder .
I did advise the builder. He said that he is not to worried about it. He said to monitor it for the next few oil changes. He did extend my warranty an extra year.
Even though he says it’s nothing…I’m unsure. I’ve never seen this before. Just wondering if anyone here has.
OVCobra
11-10-2021, 03:57 PM
IMO the glitter in your oil is NOT normal...maybe on the initial break-in but not on the second. As noted by klawrence, if there are no deposits on the magnetic drain plugs its got to be aluminum (piston) or bearing material.
Are you running aluminum rocker arms? If so perhaps another source of glitter?
You say you are running a steel gear so I assume you are running a roller cam...wear on these would be magnetic so not likely the culprit.
Oil analysis should confirm.
Change the oil and keep an eye on it to see if it clears up. If it doesn't I'm afraid your engine may be eating itself for some reason.
klawrence
11-10-2021, 04:03 PM
My thought , which may be wrong. If the material did not stick to the magnets its either non magnetic or from the oil pump itself due to oil flow path.
aarvig
11-10-2021, 04:15 PM
IMO the glitter in your oil is NOT normal...maybe on the initial break-in but not on the second. As noted by klawrence, if there are no deposits on the magnetic drain plugs its got to be aluminum (piston) or bearing material.
Are you running aluminum rocker arms? If so perhaps another source of glitter?
You say you are running a steel gear so I assume you are running a roller cam...wear on these would be magnetic so not likely the culprit.
Oil analysis should confirm.
Change the oil and keep an eye on it to see if it clears up. If it doesn't I'm afraid your engine may be eating itself for some reason.
Yes, I agree. The metal appears to be "gold tinged" in nature (of course that could be due to floating in oil) and is definitely non-magnetic.
Engine wear is typically greater when all the parts are new and it’s not unusual to see some indication of wear particles in the filter. I wouldn’t be worried yet with what your photos show but would certainly monitor and cut open filters more frequently than you have while monitoring to see if this condition trends lower over time (short term). And running an oil analysis for wear parts is a smart thing to do. Knowing where the debris is coming from helps assess the gravity of the situation. Particles in the oil filter are not the end of the world, especially if you know their source and the cause has been resolved.
However, what I would be worried about is your comment that you didn’t see debris in the filter but did see it in the oil. Ask yourself why the filter is not catching this. Those particles look plenty big enough they should have been trapped in the filter. The filter’s job is to trap particles and keep them from circulating through the engine. From what you described; your filter is not doing what it’s supposed to do. So, why is that? That's a more urgent puzzle to solve.
Gordon Levy
11-11-2021, 01:02 AM
This ^^^^^^
Sdonnel
11-11-2021, 10:43 AM
My engine builder recommended the Wix 5151R filter for the 351w application. Claims it's the best one out there. Won't touch any of the other name brand filters due to poor filtration performance.
aarvig
11-11-2021, 11:55 AM
Engine wear is typically greater when all the parts are new and it’s not unusual to see some indication of wear particles in the filter. I wouldn’t be worried yet with what your photos show but would certainly monitor and cut open filters more frequently than you have while monitoring to see if this condition trends lower over time (short term). And running an oil analysis for wear parts is a smart thing to do. Knowing where the debris is coming from helps assess the gravity of the situation. Particles in the oil filter are not the end of the world, especially if you know their source and the cause has been resolved.
However, what I would be worried about is your comment that you didn’t see debris in the filter but did see it in the oil. Ask yourself why the filter is not catching this. Those particles look plenty big enough they should have been trapped in the filter. The filter’s job is to trap particles and keep them from circulating through the engine. From what you described; your filter is not doing what it’s supposed to do. So, why is that? That's a more urgent puzzle to solve.
Maybe I should clarify. The oil that Had the glitter in it it was on the dirty side of the oil filter; it was not filling up the pleats with particulates. When I opened up the oil filter and separated it that’s when I saw the glitter. So it seems the oil filter is stopping it. I’m using a Wix 51515
Could the glitter be a result of how you cut the filter open?
aarvig
11-11-2021, 01:07 PM
Could the glitter be a result of how you cut the filter open?
I used a tinsnips so I doubt it…
For those new to cutting open filters to inspect, there are tools made just for this purpose. These special tools work much like a can opener -- quick & easy and do not leave shaving. Here just one example: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900511
As for finding debris in the filter, how much is too much? Good luck finding an OEM spec but those of us that have a a great deal of experience know that not every indication of debris is cause for alarm. Here's an article on the subject I've shared here before that helps to understand what may or may not be something that causes you to perform an invasive tear-down inspection. It comes from the aviation community of which I've been a member of for three-decades and can attest that this industry takes the approach that safety is paramount. The mantra "if there is any question -- there is no question" sums up the fact that the default position is mitigation of risks. Enjoy: https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2013-01_how-much-is-too-much.pdf
narly1
11-11-2021, 02:56 PM
For those new to cutting open filters to inspect, there are tools made just for this purpose.
What would be an acceptable filter opening technique for those that don't have the proper tool readily available?
Perhaps a punch to make an initial opening, followed by a chisel to open it up a bit further, followed by metal snips to finish the job?
Thoughts?
What would be an acceptable filter opening technique for those that don't have the proper tool readily available?
Perhaps a punch to make an initial opening, followed by a chisel to open it up a bit further, followed by metal snips to finish the job?
Thoughts?
My thoughts: You're working too hard. Much more enjoyable having the correct tool for the job than fighting it. This should not be considered a one-time use, you should be cutting open all your oil filters every time you pull one off. It's part of the maintenance procedure and is a condition based inspection that gives an early warning of incipient failure. Just like you look at the oil when you drain it, you should be looking at the filter and the only way to do that on a spin-on is to cut it open. Good tools are expensive and you want to choose wisely on what you really need and what quality you decide to buy. I get it. This is one of those things that detail oriented hobbyists and professionals alike will want to purchase and religiously use. But most will forgo this inspection. And that's OK when it comes to a car but not so much for aircraft and so A&P mechanics routinely cut open filters on every oil change.
Opinions are like belly buttons, everyone has one and I've never been bashful of sharing mine -- thanks for asking. But not all will agree with me, and that's OK. We all come from different backgrounds and have different experiences.
Have fun with your build.
narly1
11-11-2021, 03:51 PM
No worries NAZ I was thinking that cutting filters open was more of a 1-2 time exercise as opposed to something one would do with each oil change.
The other thing you gotta remember is that up here in Canada things are a little harder to find locally and even if you can, more expensive.
Earl