Why Are Cobras So Darn Twitchie? Try To Name A Car With A Shorter Wheel Base!

[GoDadGo]

Hey Gang,

> We all know that our beloved Roadsters can be a handful, but have you ever wondered what cars have a shorter wheelbase?
> Believe it or not, Gremlins, Pintos, Chevettes, and Vegas all have more space between their wheels than our favorite pocket Rockets.
> The only cars nearly as stubby are the vintage Datsun Z-Cars and the Super Cute Miatas with the Triumph TR6 being a bit shorter.
> Test your skills and see if you can think of a car that has a shorter wheelbase than our Radical Roadsters.

Steve

PS:..Be careful out there because are cars a fun, but very stubby.

[Al_C]

Smart Car. 73.7"

[Jetfuel]

155013

Yes we do

Jet

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's a small roadster thing. Austin Healey Sprite and MG Midget are both 80". Triumph Spitfire is 83". Fiat 850 is 79" and X19 is 86". The all American roadster, the Jeep CJ5 started at 81" to and was later stretched to 83".

Jeff

[J R Jones]

GDG,
TVR Griffith, (early) Porsche 911, 912. Saab Sonett.
jim

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Owned two Triumph TR-3A & TR-3B 88"

[J R Jones]

GDG,
TVR Griffith, (early) Porsche 911, 912. Saab Sonett.
jim

GDG,
How could I forget, I set lap records and won with a Sunbeam Tiger, even in the rain.
jim

155018

[RoadRacer]

I wondered how the Hot Rod compares.. 112" compared to 90", dang!!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I wondered how the Hot Rod compares.. 112" compared to 90", dang!!

112" is a pretty common wheelbase. My M4 has a 112.5" wheelbase. Considered to be a very good handling car. Of course like all modern cars it has nannies up the wahzoo to keep you safe.

[GoDadGo]

I wondered how the Hot Rod compares.. 112" compared to 90", dang!!

I Bet Those Sucker Go Straight!

[Glen Davis]

VW based fiberglass Dune Buggies have a 80" wheel base

[JCB52]

BMW Isetta …… 59"

[JohnK]

BMW Isetta …… 59"

LOL - the fact that the Isetta only has three wheels might play a role too. ;) Those things are literally refrigerators on wheels.

[Jeff Kleiner]

But of course when properly set up our 90 inch wheelbase cars don’t have to be “twitchy.” Don’t know about all of you but with quick ratio power steering, 8 degrees of caster, 3/32” toe in mine is one hand rock steady at 80 MPH.

I’ll d sit back now and wait for comments from the smartest men in the room ;)

Jeff

[J R Jones]

Ken Miles did not wear Spandex.

[FLPBFoot]

But of course when properly set up our 90 inch wheelbase cars don’t have to be “twitchy.” Don’t know about all of you but with quick ratio power steering, 8 degrees of caster, 3/32” toe in mine is one hand rock steady at 80 MPH.

I’ll d sit back now and wait for comments from the smartest men in the room ;)

Jeff

Agree Jeff - mine set up like you said, doing 90 on I90 in South Dakota was straight as an arrow and wouldn't put in steering inputs for long stretches. Not twitchy at all!!

[nucjd19]

My cruiser is super twitchy on the road. Makes my Roadster feel like a Escalade. It is set up as a rock crawler ( Spring under arm 4.5" lift, 1.5" shackles, power steering conversion, 6 point roll cage welded to the frame, disc brake conversion, 12x50 swampers with beed lockers, and an Aussie locker in the front diff). That rig will drag itself over anything but don't ask it to go over 50 mph on the road :)
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144507&d=1615861147

[GoDadGo]

,Twitchie = Wheel Spin
.1st, 2nd, 3rd & Sometimes 4th
It's A 383, 3.73, 6-Speed Thing!

[JohnnyB]

I parked next to a TVR Grantura (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVR_Grantura) at a Cruise In this summer. That thing was tiny, 83.5" wheelbase.

[GoDadGo]

The MG Midget Was A Stumpy 80" Between Da-Wheels!

[cobrajj]

Talk about twitchy----my 1966 TVR Griffith 271 HP 400 series, had a 89.5 WB and came with 185 mm x 15" tires!

[rich grsc]

But of course when properly set up our 90 inch wheelbase cars don’t have to be “twitchy.” Don’t know about all of you but with quick ratio power steering, 8 degrees of caster, 3/32” toe in mine is one hand rock steady at 80 MPH.

I’ll d sit back now and wait for comments from the smartest men in the room ;)

Jeff
Thank you Jeff. I have the same experience, and wheel spin doesn't = 'twitchy'

[frankeeski]

Thank you Jeff. I have the same experience, and wheel spin doesn't = 'twitchy'

................. and that's when the fight started. :rolleyes:

[Just puttering]

To add an extra layer..... I think the extended question is what is the hp per inch of wheel base comparing to the others?

Then is there a hp/in rule that could be made where under some number you should be fine, up two levels and you are driving a squirrel?

[GoDadGo]

The question was:

> We all know that our beloved Roadsters can be a handful, but have you ever wondered what cars have a shorter wheelbase?

Here are our Top-10 we have the following:

1....BMW Isetta @ 59.0"
2....The Smart Car @ 73.7"
3....MG Midget @ 80.0"
4....VW Manx Style Dune Buggy's @ 80.0"
5....Triumph Spitfire wheelbase @ 83.0"
6....TVR Grantura @ 83.5"
7....Triumph TR7-TR8 Series @ 85.0"
8....Sunbeam Tiger (Alpine Series) 86.0"
8....Triumph TR3-TR6 Series @ 88.0"
10..Early Porsche 911-912 Series @ 89.3"

JCB52 came up with the Stubbiest Car which was the BMW Isetta.

[J R Jones]

The question was:

> We all know that our beloved Roadsters can be a handful, but have you ever wondered what cars have a shorter wheelbase?

Here are our Top-10 we have the following:

1....BMW Isetta @ 59.0"
2....The Smart Car @ 73.7"
3....MG Midget @ 80.0"
4....VW Manx Style Dune Buggy's @ 80.0"
5....Triumph Spitfire wheelbase @ 83.0"
6....TVR Grantura @ 83.5"
7....Triumph TR7-TR8 Series @ 85.0"
8....Sunbeam Tiger (Alpine Series) 86.0"
8....Triumph TR3-TR6 Series @ 88.0"
10..Early Porsche 911-912 Series @ 89.3"

JCB52 came up with the Stubbiest Car which was the BMW Isetta.

GDG,
Porsche 912
Wheelbase 2,211 mm (87.0 in)

Porsche 911 (classic)
Dimensions
Wheelbase 2,211–2,268 mm (87.0–89.3 in)

But who is counting?
jim

[GoDadGo]

To add an extra layer..... I think the extended question is what is the hp per inch of wheel base comparing to the others?

Then is there a hp/in rule that could be made where under some number you should be fine, up two levels and you are driving a squirrel?

The Driving A Squirrel Rule (HP/Wheelbase) would be a great thread!

[GoDadGo]

GDG,
Porsche 912
Wheelbase 2,211 mm (87.0 in)

Porsche 911 (classic)
Dimensions
Wheelbase 2,211–2,268 mm (87.0–89.3 in)

But who is counting?
jim

And who can forget the Porsche 550 spyder and later 356 Series at 82.7"?

[rich grsc]

The Driving A Squirrel Rule (HP/Wheelbase) would be a great thread!
Does that rule take into account the 'nut' behind the wheel?

[Fman]

And who can forget the Porsche 550 spyder and later 356 Series at 82.7"?

GDG Fun fact on the Spyder 550 only 90 of them were ever produced and they only weighed in at 1200 lbs. Valued at around 6 million now.

[GoDadGo]

GDG Fun fact on the Spyder 550 only 90 of them were ever produced and they only weighed in at 1200 lbs. Valued at around 6 million now.

So that is why the transaxle from the James Dean's Spyder sold for such an insane amount!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/gearbox/

90 Cars Truly Makes That A Very Rare Car!

[PG_Cobra]

Classic Mini (1959 - 2000) 80"

[GoDadGo]

Classic Mini (1959 - 2000) 80"

When I'm at a Car Show or Cars & Coffee, when I see a Classic Mini or early VW Bug, they always make me smile.

8-)

[nucjd19]

How about a....... Yugo!!! wheelbase = 84.6"

[Jeff Kleiner]

I’ve seen a lot more squirrelly drivers than I have squirrelly cars. Just sayin’

Jeff

[mikeinatlanta]

IMNSHO:
Wheelbase is not the primary concern with twitchy.
Setup: Already mentioned.
Moment of Inertia: Although overall weight distribution is good, that weight is placed well away from the CG, making the wheelbase you do have less effective at either changing direction of holding a given direction.
Driver position: The driver is well back near the rear axle, accentuating any movement the car does have.

[GoDadGo]

I’ve seen a lot more squirrelly drivers than I have squirrelly cars. Just sayin’

Jeff

Me Too Sir Jeffski, Me Too!

https://youtu.be/1w0N9W6AyTo?list=TLPQMzExMDIwMjFG8SwRviYQmw

Steve

[Avalanche325]

Peel P50.
50 inch wheel base.

....if you can even call it a car.

[Rdone585]

I just googled a Peel P50. My lawnmower is almost twice the size of one of those :eek:

[rthomas98]

It's a small roadster thing. Austin Healey Sprite and MG Midget are both 80". Triumph Spitfire is 83". Fiat 850 is 79" and X19 is 86". The all American roadster, the Jeep CJ5 started at 81" to and was later stretched to 83".

Jeff

You beat me to the punch on the CJ5. It is twitchy and top heavy to boot. Throw in a leaf suspension all around and it is not attacking the dragons tail anytime soon. But dang was it one of my favorite vehicles to ever own.

[GoDadGo]

You beat me to the punch on the CJ5. It is twitchy and top heavy to boot. Throw in a leaf suspension all around and it is not attacking the dragons tail anytime soon. But dang was it one of my favorite vehicles to ever own.

Since we've delved into the land of Jeeps, which are road legal vehicles, we forgot the Suzuki Samurai had a Tippie wheelbase of only 79.9".
The YUGO mentioned earlier in the thread has got to be the worst of all of the cars listed from a quality and likely the least desired for collectability.
We all forgot the Reliant Robin at 85.0" which really was obviously far more Tippie than it was Twitchie!

https://youtu.be/QQh56geU0X8

[Jeff Kleiner]

You beat me to the punch on the CJ5. It is twitchy and top heavy to boot. Throw in a leaf suspension all around and it is not attacking the dragons tail anytime soon. But dang was it one of my favorite vehicles to ever own.

Mine too! Had a CJ5 for years and loved it. First with the 258 6 cylinder and then with a pretty healthy 408. Drove it everywhere, on road and off, spring, summer fall and winter. Only turned it over once…pulled it back over, let the oil drain back down then fired it up and motored on :cool:

Jeff

[DoogieT]

Thank you Jeff. I have the same experience, and wheel spin doesn't = 'twitchy'

Hi Rich GRSC et all: I need race suspension to help control rear. Front always full grip.

331 stroker 324WHP, MSD/distrib, elect pwr steer, Edelbrock intake and Holly 750, dual brake fluid, Willwood 6 pist front/4 rear, offset rims, Yokohama 10.5" front, 12.5" rear, spacers all around, extended lugs, fuel cell, race seat and Tremec TKO600. 2nd Roll bar but not willing to install cage. FFR coil over red Koni, Susp rigid, 2% toe, solid rear axle.

Now 4,000 miles on 14 tracks in 9 States.

Gratefully,
Doug
Allen Park, MI
Great Lakes Cobra Club

[NAZ]

Pure Hell AA/ Fuel Altered, 89" wheelbase and more HP than the average FFR roaster. It was a handful to drive. The new one launches straight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tYxDsXmjcM

[rthomas98]

Mine too! Had a CJ5 for years and loved it. First with the 258 6 cylinder and then with a pretty healthy 408. Drove it everywhere, on road and off, spring, summer fall and winter. Only turned it over once…pulled it back over, let the oil drain back down then fired it up and motored on :cool:

Jeff

Swapped my engine as well, had the 258 I6. originally fuel injected it (which is why I am still leery of Aftermarket fuel injection systems was a nightmare). But ultimately swapped it out for a AMC 360 I got out of an old javelin. Drove it until the frame finally fully rusted through and parked it. Needless to say wife and kids later equaled the CJ was sold. But all is good, got to start building my MK4 roadster (because the wife is awesome and let me do it).

[NC Cobra]

We all forgot the Reliant Robin at 85.0" which really was obviously far more Tippie than it was Twitchie!

https://youtu.be/QQh56geU0X8[/QUOTE]

Oh my gosh but the old Top Gear segments are funny. Thank you for posting!

[Hotyacht]

Lancia Stratos @ 85.8"
155197
Would love FFR to do a replica kit for one of these.

[NiceGuyEddie]

155259

I thought my 1985 Plymouth Reliant K-car was a contender. Wheelbase = 100"

This was my 2nd car, my dad bought it from the janitor - a guy from the South Bronx that "had to leave the country immediately." He paid $2,200 for it. It was a smoking deal because MSRP was probably about $7,000 and it was only a year old.

I wish I had more pictures of it - it was pimped out with sheepskin seat covers, Jesus decals on the headlights with wire covers, curb feelers, a statue of Mary on the dash, the "bouncing head" Chihuahua on the rear deck, a fake cell phone antenna, and few other other decorative items. I left everything on for a few weeks and looking back, I regret taking everything off.

Compared to other cars from the era, this car had a relatively high wheelbase and it was fantastic in the snow. I'm sure I cruised along at 75mph along Route 80 but it was definitely not twitchy.

[JCB52]

Only the Isetta's that where built in UK and Canada. The German imports have 4 wheels, they are only 20" apart so they didn't need a differential.

[j.miller]

rear engine race cart.49in wheel base....handles like a cat on carpet , can stop on a dime and give you a nickel 2 ninety eight in change....jus sayin...da Bat

[Ray]

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/09/the-cobra-and-the-cheetah-a-muscle-car-tale-part-one

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/09/the-cobra-and-the-cheetah-a-muscle-car-tale-part-two

Ray

[J R Jones]

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/09/the-cobra-and-the-cheetah-a-muscle-car-tale-part-one

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/09/the-cobra-and-the-cheetah-a-muscle-car-tale-part-two

Ray

Ray,
Having raced SCCA through the seventies, I never saw a Cheetah at the track.
I have never seen a Cheetah finish a vintage race, until this year.
The July Brian Redman vintage event at Road America ran various similar car classes and Group 3 was interesting:

Group 3 – Vintage GT/Sports/ P Type/ USRRC
Brian Garcia, St. Charles, Ill., 65 BTM Cheetah
The black roadster was reworked to extraordinary width, and had a strong engine. Brian gapped the field on lap one and ran away to the end.
jim

[GThompson]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the 1st gen Honda CRX at 86.6”. The 2nd gen got 4” longer, to 90.4”.

[aquillen]

You beat me to the punch on the CJ5. It is twitchy and top heavy to boot. Throw in a leaf suspension all around and it is not attacking the dragons tail anytime soon. But dang was it one of my favorite vehicles to ever own.

The CJ just makes the tail a straight line :)

[caesarmascetti]

Lancia Stratos rally car 85.8”

[DoogieT]

I saw Jeff's recipe, I SCCA Time trial Mk4. Please confirm "twitchy" is loose rearend? Miata's pass me in turns. What is the ideal suspension setup beginning with the biggest bang for the buck and the least expensive changes. Currently have the stock koni over, solid axle, torsion bar. I use offset rims, spacers and 12" Nitro and Yokahama.
Now in Daytona, would like recommendation for suspension shop.

[DoogieT]

Hi Jeff, 'twitchy' to me is turns on a road track and the rear looses grip. I've driven a Mk4 over 4,000 miles on 15 tracks in 9 States and the only counter I found is stay on the gas, counter steer and feather the peddle. Do I understand correctly, we share the definition of 'twitch'? I have electric power steering will have to determine if it can be adjusted to a quick ratio, I would say mine is not setup as you suggest. 8 degrees caster is more than twice what I have, we'll checkout tow-in.

Then to the later comment CG and inertia... makes sense to me too, are adjustments possible. If I'm going to change engine I'd set it back inside the cockpit and allow a raised center council absorb the space. Any suggestions for me?

Kind Regards,
Doug Tally
Daytona Beach, FL & Allen Park, MI
Great Lakes Cobra Club - Detroit

[DoogieT]

Agree with you and Jeff...

'Twitchy' to me is turns on a road track and the rear looses grip. I've driven a Mk4 over 4,000 miles on 15 tracks in 9 States and the only counter I found is stay on the gas, counter steer and feather the peddle. I have electric power steering not quick ratio so I'll look at adjustment. I'm formulating plans to upgrade the suspension and we'll look at 8 degrees caster and 3/32" tow-in.
Then to the later comment CG and inertia... If we change engine I'll explore engine set-back inside the cockpit and allow a raised center council provide the space. Any suggestions appreciated.

Kind Regards,
Doug Tally
Daytona Beach, FL & Allen Park, MI
Great Lakes Cobra Club - Detroit

[cc2Arider]

Not that anyone else cares, but I still have a soft-spot for early Datsuns:
Roadster = 89"
510 = 95"
z = 91"

I agree with Just Puttering about the power aspect :)

Craig C

[Ron J]

Hey Gang,

> We all know that our beloved Roadsters can be a handful, but have you ever wondered what cars have a shorter wheelbase?
> Believe it or not, Gremlins, Pintos, Chevettes, and Vegas all have more space between their wheels than our favorite pocket Rockets.
> The only cars nearly as stubby are the vintage Datsun Z-Cars and the Super Cute Miatas with the Triumph TR6 being a bit shorter.
> Test your skills and see if you can think of a car that has a shorter wheelbase than our Radical Roadsters.

Steve

PS:..Be careful out there because are cars a fun, but very stubby.

Just my 2¢,
I built a Cobra Replica om 1986, before the days of FFR. It was an NAF and has a 90" wheelbase and a manual steering rack. It has never felt "twitchy" to me.
Recently I completed a Type 65 Gen 2 Coupe, which has a 95" wheelbase and a power steering rack.
The Coupe is definitely twitchy, even with the longer wheelbase. When on the freeway in the Coupe, I may find myself in the next lane over if I sneeze.
I suspect the twitchiness comes more from the steering ratio than from the short wheelbase.
My Cobra steering has about 5 turns lock-to-lock and the Coupe is about 2-1/2 turns lock-to-lock.
Small input in steering, big change in direction.
If you want to get rid of the twitchiness, one suggestion would be changing to a rack with more lock-to-lock turns.

175072175071
Ron

[Hoooper]

My 15:1 manual steering box does not feel twitchy at all. I wouldnt even dream of putting a slower rack in. If anything it needs a quicker rack.

[Papa]

For a point of reference, a 2007 Ford F250 dually is 95.5" wide. :p

[John289]

My 1965 Triumph TR4A had an 88" wheelbase and an overall width of 58". That was a fun little car.
175093

[J R Jones]

My daily driver is a Fiat Abarth that has 90" wheelbase, 64" wide and 59" high. Wheels are 17X7.
It is exceedingly entertaining to drive. When the "Sport" switch is engaged it tightens the steering and provides 18lb boost. Stuff happens....fast, but never twitchy. It is actually comfortable on the highway.
It is well balanced, no surprises.
jim

175094

175095

[Scott L]

Ray,
Having raced SCCA through the seventies, I never saw a Cheetah at the track.
I have never seen a Cheetah finish a vintage race, until this year.
The July Brian Redman vintage event at Road America ran various similar car classes and Group 3 was interesting:

Group 3 – Vintage GT/Sports/ P Type/ USRRC
Brian Garcia, St. Charles, Ill., 65 BTM Cheetah
The black roadster was reworked to extraordinary width, and had a strong engine. Brian gapped the field on lap one and ran away to the end.
jim

Thanks Jim - Enjoyed reading this

[rich grsc]

My 15:1 manual steering box does not feel twitchy at all. I wouldnt even dream of putting a slower rack in. If anything it needs a quicker rack.

A lane change should just be a thought.... I think it and it happens. :cool:

[GoDadGo]

Thanks You All For Resurrecting My Old Thread!

1. After being "Road Legal" for two years I no longer find my car to be "Twitchy."
2. I simply had to learn how to drive it by easing into the throttle and not speed shifting.
3. I also learned that you want to "Not Shift" in the middle of any curve or bad things can happen.
4. What I also discovered is Redbone is simply is faster than most anything on the road.

Once I learned to how to ease & squeeze the throttle, I am just scooting right along.

[J R Jones]

Thanks Jim - Enjoyed reading this

Scott, The Cheetah win was not a fluke, he did a repeat this year in the subsequent event. I will point out that back in the day, that car would not have passed a National Tech inspection. If it had, protests would have been filed. Vintage racing, at least in the Midwest, is not like Club racing. Entertaining though.
jim

[gh426]

2 smoke shifter karts?, not a car BUT, wheelbase yes but if you bagged and cambered ur cobra would it not smooth it out ever so slighty? Center of Gravity or Center of Inertia or some such nonsense. physics, science... harrummpphh.!

gh

[k-roy]

You beat me to the punch on the CJ5. It is twitchy and top heavy to boot. Throw in a leaf suspension all around and it is not attacking the dragons tail anytime soon. But dang was it one of my favorite vehicles to ever own.

Twitchy? Everyone knows you don't drive CJs, you herd them down the road

[mcwho]

When I got my kit back in 2010 there was a couple things i did to helo relieve the twitchyness. I bought a Power rack and added the Heidt valve to make it adjustable.

Problem I set the heidt valve halfway and never touchid it. It was way too sensative. I recently replaced the rack with a 3.0 turns rack and set the heidt valve to less sensative. Turns out the old ps rack is 2.0 turns.

It drives great now the Heidt vale ivs backed way out. Nice on the hiway and i get a bit of feedback on the hiway.

[Kennyr]

My 2 contenders would have been my SCCA SRF3 (92”) and the “was supposed to be competition for the Cobra” Cheetah (90”). I give up.