How much more would you pay?

[ggunter]

I just read an interesting comment on another post of how much more would you pay for an upgraded kit? Better parts quality? Better engineered? I hadn't checked the cost of a complete kit lately but the website still shows $19900. Which is what I paid when I ordered my car in May of 2020. Thats pretty amazing in my book, and going back probably a year before that when I was looking I think it was the same price. So cudos to Dave Smith for being able to hold that price for so long. Having said all that, if you wanted to see certain improvements in the kit what would you like to see, and why and how much extra would you pay. Me personally, I would pay extra for a body that had a centrally located point of fitment. Something like another dash hoop just behind the firewall that a channel can be glassed into the body to fit down over the hoop. This could be easily machined with their five axis robot during the clean up process after the mold. That way there is a central starting point for all fiberglass trimming and things like body cutouts won't be "close" but be finished. I would pay another $250 for that "precision fit body" as an option. I spent a lot of time getting the body to fit properly so the door openings, trunk and hood all fit in their alotted position. I know the guys who build a lot of these car probably get it down pat very quickly, but the one time guys like me, it took some time that I would pay extra to save that time.The other thing I would have paid for, not as an option but a cost of the kit price was a better ebrake redesign. I won't go into the design of it but it needs attention. All in all I think the chassis is pretty darn good. Some of the imported parts could be upgraded like the switches and some of the smaller bits. While they haven't failed yet, When I see made in Taiwan, I'm just waiting for them to fail. I Know it helps to keep that $19900 cost where its at but, I think a cost increase is coming do to Dave having to deal with the parts supply chain, and the extra shipping costs and labor, and inflation to deal with. Enough of my rant, what would you like t see changed and how much more would you pay?

[CaptB]

As someone who is just now starting the build, there is a lot of experience I don't have. Right now FFR has options when it does come to ordering, the donor option and the complete kit. I guess at this point I would ask, what is lower quality that comes with the kit?

There is the option to have varying degrees of the complete kit with better quality options but where they are and how the market probably isn't conducive to that right now.

So, no solutions here only that I'm sure in a year I'll have a much better informed opinion. I know that I've always admired (since the late '90s) Dave and his company and it only took me 20 years to finally jump in and build. In a way I'm glad because I think the level of technology and build consistency is much better now than 20 years ago. Of course I missed 20 years of driving too!

One more note, I'm looking at north of $50K invested with the current kit/drivetrain so how much would I pay? Well, not much.

[narly1]

Would that have been my comment by any chance? LOL.

I think that part of the equation is what it would cost to fix or improve something at the manufacturing stage as opposed to later at the build stage.

For instance (and this is just a hypothetical example) if it would cost $10K to fix the manufacturing process to make relatively flawless bodies but only $5K in bodywork by builders to fix them after the fact, which makes more sense?

Remember the whole premise of kit cars is that the buyer/builder puts in the labour/sweat equity to finish the car and keep the cost down.

There is an alternative, and that's to have a kit sent to a pro builder and they present the buyer with a finished car...but at a corresponding higher finished cost.

I don't think we can have it both ways...

Earl

[Jeff Kleiner]

...I hadn't checked the cost of a complete kit lately but the website still shows $19900. Which is what I paid when I ordered my car in May of 2020. Thats pretty amazing in my book, and going back probably a year before that when I was looking I think it was the same price....

$19,990 is today's price. $19,990 was the price when I built one of the very first Mk4s for a customer back in 2010!. The only change to content is that the wiper kit was included back then and is now an option (400 bucks I think). What else can you buy today for the same price---not an equivalent adjusted for inflation price, the same price---that you would have paid over a decade ago?

Jeff

[JohnK]

I agree that $19,990 is a fantastic price for what you get, but I also agree that some stuff in the kit is clearly low-budget in the interest of keeping the price down. Some are quite small items, and things that many people end up tossing and upgrading. Just one example is the fuel filler neck rubber gasket. Pretty well-known that the generic item is prone to failure and many (myself included) end up throwing it away and replacing it with an OEM part. It's those types of parts in the kit that annoy me... the stuff that is widely acknowledged to just be of inferior quality relative to the overall kit. I would pay more to have all the parts be of some basic serviceable level of quality (yes, I realize this is subjective). In the end, I ended up replacing some of the kit-supplied parts with higher quality items, so the $19,990 is a bit less of a bargain when you figure in all the stuff that was replaced.

[rthomas98]

I am ok with the kit price where it is (assuming it is still sustainable). The upgrades that are being asked about I like doing those myself with the aftermarket options. I look at is I am part of the manufacturing process I do pay more for the kit then the base $19,990. But it is to the community that supports these cars. I know I am at least up to $2000 so far with upgrades from Breeze, Boig, Amazon, menards and FFmetal. But I got to choose those specific upgrades and tailor them how I wanted. That is the fun of these cars you want an upgrade on a part upgrade it. You don't like a design change it.

But I do wonder with the recent increases in steel, aluminum and rubber, how Dave is able to maintain the kit cost right now. I would not be surprised to see an increase in the near future.

[Fman]

Considering a 427 Superformance Cobra is now north of 100k (complete car out the door) IMO the 20k base kit price is a good value. There are plenty of cars on this forum being built for far less cost and are comparable in quality to a Superformance build. I am actually surprised FFR has not raised there prices with the demand continuing to go up. How many people would have not ordered there car if the complete kit price went up to $22,500? My guess is just about everyone would still have there order in the system. I ordered my kit in Feb 2020 and had it in my garage mid April. I have been seeing 7-8 month wait times now for kits? Kudos to Dave Smith for keeping the price where it is because most companies would have jumped on the supply and demand wagon.

[ggunter]

Yes Narly, it was your comment that got me thinking. When I look at the upgrades I made to my car, FFmetal trans top, FF Metal firewall, Boig pipes, a whole bunch of stuff from Breeze. You know actually none of these items "had " to be replaced, but when I first leaned into the trans top getting out of the car, I said whoa.. and I replaced it with something nicer because it made me feel better about the build as did all the other parts I replaced. I guess it boils down to what is the quality of the end product you want for yourself. And Jeff your right, it is incredible he has been able to keep the price the same for that long. That stands to Dave's business smarts to be able to be more efficient with labor, parts pruchasing, etc. Just look at the solar units he's installed to take advantage of tax incentives and lower costs of utilities. The list goes on forever for a business owner to be efficient so he can stay competative. Sorry I'm getting off track again....

[narly1]

No doubt there are a huge number of "moving parts" that dictate how somebody like Dave Smith and his company decide to conduct business with respect to quality vs price.

IMO some of the things that I think that FFR has going for it:

1. Superior frame designs.

2. An amazing builder and vendor community.

3. Staff that are trying very hard given the times we are in right now.

4. An entry price point that is affordable to the average enthusiast.

This mix must be correct/working as kit demand seems to be at an all time high... so where's the incentive to change?

Earl

[J R Jones]

I find it curious that passions and the level of discretion in discretionary spending, influence the tolerance for quality.
Analogies might illustrate a point.
Buying "knock-down" assemblies like Ikea furniture, patio furniture, outdoor or indoor gym/exercise equipment, swimming pool, out building, bicycle, lawn mower, furnace, air conditioner, ect, one does not tolerate missing parts, or part design that does not assemble or function. One sends it back for a refund.

Buying online at retail through Amazon, RockAuto, Summit, Speedway, ect we are offered parts and packages at a variety of prices and quality levels. There would not be options if there were not buyers at the various price points. Personally I might be gullible, but I do not choose the cheap options because I prefer performance, durability aesthetics and I dislike compromise.
Should FFR adopt that methodology? It would only be conceivable with the loose purchased bits. Cost to FFR would be more logistics, increased inventory, but at consistent margins, there is more profit for more expensive packages.

It would not be realistic to offer two levels of quality in manufactured parts like frame and body. Space required and tooling is prohibitive. Image may suffer, would FFR be judged at the low level or high level of quality?
My personal dissatisfaction is with parts that are manufactured, maybe designed, to not fit together. Examples are 818 R & L doors, the roof, cowl/windscreen, rear deck. Design specific issue examples, engine/transaxle mount ange and bump steer.

I take exception to narley1's comment: "if it would cost $10K to fix the manufacturing process to make relatively flawless bodies but only $5K in bodywork by builders to fix them after the fact"
That generalization may apply to surface quality of an entire body, dependent on the amount of correction. My gripe is with issues requiring complete structural and cosmetic redesign and rework. I speculate correction at a manufacturing level would often be 8 to 32 man-hours versus hundreds of cars and weeks of rework per car.
Model year would be an opportunity for upgrades and correction, making tracking for customer service and warranty more efficient.

The alternative is to search out higher quality alternatives. Other kit car manufacturers exist, particularly in commodity replicas. GTM and 818 are exclusives. Maybe there is a captive audience message there.
jim

[Papa]

When I took the leap with my purchase, I fully intended to do a by-the-book, use all the provided parts build. It didn't take me too long to diverge from that plan. Here are a couple of thoughts:
1. Offer the same complete kit that you can buy today
2. Offer the base kit, but then assemble and offer major system packages a la carte (fuel system, brake system, electrical system, cooling system, exhaust system, etc.). Yes, you can sort of do that today, but need to buy each component separately. I'm saying to create bundled packages for the complete system.
3. Eliminate redundant/frequently unused parts like the hood pin set, air filter, pully and belt, oil filter relocation kit, etc.

Just my $0.02 on potential cost savings for both FFR and the builders.

Dave

[GTBradley]

I'm not a business owner, but it seems to me that FFR has two major things to be concerned with regarding increasing the price for their kit. First is competition and will your customers start to justify lessor quality for a lower price offered by the competition. I looked at the other kit companies initially, but decided it wasn't worth losing out on the support network and experience Factory Five offers especially considering the relatively low cost of the Mk4 full kit. However, this is a kit, and the challenge of building your own car is what most people are after, so going it alone isn't off the table for many, mostly the cost conscience. Second, the minimum cost of a completed Mk4 is something most of us research, whether we can afford it easily or not. To be sure, some who can't afford the finished product still jump in the deep end and still manage to get the job done, eventually. If that minimum price for realizing your dream is scary, but the price for getting started isn't, well, many will still write the check.

Another reason I see the kit being the price it is, is that it has created a very large following that has also created a very large and profitable after-market. The upgrades that went into my car even before it was shipped had to of put FFR in a profitable place, and I just kept coming back for more. And I'm not done yet. There is a lot more to Factory Five than meets the eye and I'll bet the profitability comes from everyone talking about them - a low, possibly even a breakeven, price on the initial kit might be the winning business model Dave has so adeptly adopted.

Bradley

[narly1]

I take exception to narley1's comment: "if it would cost $10K to fix the manufacturing process to make relatively flawless bodies but only $5K in bodywork by builders to fix them after the fact"
That generalization may apply to surface quality of an entire body, dependent on the amount of correction.
jim

Hey Jim maybe body issues wasn't the best example and I have no idea if the dollar figures I used to illustrate my point are anywhere accurate. That's why I used the qualifier "hypothetical". I just figured that it seemed kinda topical as I've seen a lot of discussion about bodywork issues here and elsewhere.

I could have referenced anything: windshields, carpet, sheet metal pieces, hardware, brackets....anything. :)

[JohnK]

It would not be realistic to offer two levels of quality in manufactured parts like frame and body.


Yes and no. I think there are some missed opportunities here that would both benefit builders and provide a gross margin opportunity for FFR. At the time I ordered my kit I asked if it was possible to pay an upcharge to have the frame powder coated a different color. I really liked the look of the 20th anniversary kit frames. I was told this was not an option, so I ordered the frame bare and had it powder coated here locally after cleaning up weld spatter and welds. From what I can tell from photos, it doesn't appear that FFR does any frame clean-up on the frames prior to PC, and I doubt that their PC shop is even blasting the frames prior to PC, as a lot of the weld spatter that I cleaned up came off very easily and would definitely have come off if the frame was abrasive blasted. I would have paid for the option to have the frame prepped, blasted, primed and powder coated in a different color if that option were available. I paid $800 for that locally (SF Bay Area prices) as a one-off so I'm sure FFR could charge $800-$1000 for this option and make a decent profit on it vs. the $500 for standard black PC with no prep.

[edwardb]

Interesting discusssion. My thoughts. There are many reasons why Dave and the team at Factory Five have been successful and one of the longest running and highest volume kit car manufacturers. Maybe the highest in both cases. They’ve kept the entry point at an affordable level. Especially when you compare to the competition. I priced out an ERA build a few years ago. While one could make a case for it being higher quality (maybe…) the price was significantly higher. A buddy down the street is building an RCR GT-40. Really cool but really expensive. What I like about the FF model is you can stay at the entry level and build a perfectly functional car. Or you can choose to upgrade based on your build plan, budget, desire, etc. and you’re in control. No question over the years I’ve been around this, the builds have generally gone more upscale and the build budgets are higher. But kudos to FF for keeping the entry point still affordable. Having said that, they’ve clearly had to be constantly searching for ways to hold the cost. From my first kit 12+ years ago to my most recent, some of the name brand parts (radiator, fuel tank, steering rack, to name a few) have been changed to imported and perhaps lower quality items. Hard to say for sure, but clearly that’s been happening. But the bones of the kits are still top quality in my opinion and represent a good value in the industry. I suspect a whole bunch of prospective buyers/builders would be priced out and the volume significantly affected if their approach were to change. Again, this is all part of business planning and how they run their business.

Having said that, the glass bodies remain IMO their weakest link. I’m not sure higher costs are necessary. Just a higher level of workmanship and attention to quality. The outsourced bodies are better than they used to be. But still could be better and sometimes some really bad ones get out there. It’s unfortunate.

Second point is while they haven’t raised prices, there haven’t been any sales in a long time and I suspect there won’t be anytime soon. Every kit I’ve purchased had some kind of sale or promotion and I imagine most would say the same. So, in absence of those, the prices have gone up. But still a job well done when I see how prices for almost everything is going up these days.

Final comment. The F9 represents probably their best effort to raise the quality significantly. Especially as it relates to the C-F body that supposedly doesn’t have to be painted. While a price for that kit hasn’t been announced (if indeed it goes into production someday) there’s no question it would be much higher than current models. It’s been stated it’s a halo car to have in their lineup but based on volume and price, don’t expect it will be a high runner and maybe only sold at a breakeven point. IMO, they couldn’t sustain the business if they were to evolve into only selling that level of kit.

[Straversi]

Even though I modified and upgraded seemingly everywhere, I think FFRs relentless quest to keep the entry point low is the right business decision. Most builds begin with a conversation with a spouse. That low starting points gets a lot of people the nod.

Regarding upgrade kits, unless they do something for every kit, they don’t have the economy of scale to offer the option cheaper than we can source ourselves. The mods and upgrades are what make this hobby fun, in my opinion. Most of us made a bracket or found some use for those useless hood pin brackets.

I’ve seen plenty of out of the box builds that are great. I think there is a bit of upgrade bias in the Forum because upgrades and mods are what we post and view.

Room for improvement always but they do a really good job of providing an affordable platform for us to be creative and enjoy this hobby. We sometimes forget that FFR is not in the car manufacturing business. They provide the sandbox and the swing set and the balls and we get to play.

Still find it hard to believe they can let someone like me shove a 400 HP motor into a kit with their name on it and still build a sustainable business.

Cheers to them

-Steve

[GTBradley]

Most of us made a bracket or found some use for those useless hood pin brackets.
A use for the hood pin brackets? Do tell, Steve, I'm intrigued!

[flyboyjy]

So I don't own one of these yet. For at least the past 21 years been watching and researching. I have wheels, seats and an engine ready to go and the day I have the money for the kit I would purchase a complete kit and all then order the extras from outside vendors and not feel one bit bad about it. I have come down to 2 different manufacturers I would go with, the thing that puts Factory Five at the top is the development. I like the frame, the ability to use aftermarket suspension and brakes. I am not real excited on using used parts designed from a production vehicle for another they really weren't designed for. Factory Five still has that allure where it is a small company where you can talk to the owner and problems are taken care of and their company image is still important. And no one builds a perfect body that I know of, even the originals were not symmetrical. The other manufacturer I considered in the last 4 months has raised prices $2000.00 on a complete kit, their website is not as friendly so I assume the upgrades have or will go up in price as well.

I run a business repairing machinery, so I can tell you parts prices have skyrocketed and inventory has fallen through the floor. Employees are nearly impossible to hire.

Watching all the posts here I know what I would want to get out side of the kit offering and what makes sense to upgrade during the build, and I am sure I would find a thing or two that I might not use or choose a different part later but I consider that part of the learning curve and part of the challenge. I see this as one of the you get out of it what you put into it scenarios.

So in short if I had the money and prices went up some I would still order from Factory Five and not feel bad about that choice.

[NiceGuyEddie]

I would pay more for sticky tires that wear out faster and need to be replaced sooner because they are essentially a safety upgrade. No matter what your horsepower, do not skimp on tires.

There was a night and day difference between my Nitto's and old Sumitomos. I purchased the Sumi's because they were the least expensive tires available and I started with only 270hp. Even then, they were not worth the cost savings.

[john42]

As a budget owner.. It was already a stretch on the top of my budget that came with a lot (years worth) of discussions with my wife. If the price goes up, peeps like myself would not be owners. Of course that line can be drawn almost anywhere. How many more people would be able to do it if the price was less, for example. Anyway... that's a cost/market analysis for F5 to do. :-)

[TMartinLVNV]

I do wish that F5 had an option for a more premium kit. A very basic example is replacing the standard ball joints and tie rods with Moog parts. I ended up spending quite a bit of money to replace parts that I never even used. Some parts that come to mind are:
-ball joints
-tie rods
-ignition module
-EFI fuel system kit (I threw away everything but the fuel pump)
-radiator mounting setup
-side mirror
-brake lines

[CaptB]

Yes and no. I think there are some missed opportunities here that would both benefit builders and provide a gross margin opportunity for FFR. At the time I ordered my kit I asked if it was possible to pay an upcharge to have the frame powder coated a different color. I really liked the look of the 20th anniversary kit frames. I was told this was not an option, so I ordered the frame bare and had it powder coated here locally after cleaning up weld spatter and welds. From what I can tell from photos, it doesn't appear that FFR does any frame clean-up on the frames prior to PC, and I doubt that their PC shop is even blasting the frames prior to PC, as a lot of the weld spatter that I cleaned up came off very easily and would definitely have come off if the frame was abrasive blasted. I would have paid for the option to have the frame prepped, blasted, primed and powder coated in a different color if that option were available. I paid $800 for that locally (SF Bay Area prices) as a one-off so I'm sure FFR could charge $800-$1000 for this option and make a decent profit on it vs. the $500 for standard black PC with no prep.

Same here, mine is currently in powder coat because I wanted a silver frame. This would be a good place to offer other colors and make more money.

[Papa]

Yes and no. I think there are some missed opportunities here that would both benefit builders and provide a gross margin opportunity for FFR. At the time I ordered my kit I asked if it was possible to pay an upcharge to have the frame powder coated a different color. I really liked the look of the 20th anniversary kit frames. I was told this was not an option, so I ordered the frame bare and had it powder coated here locally after cleaning up weld spatter and welds. From what I can tell from photos, it doesn't appear that FFR does any frame clean-up on the frames prior to PC, and I doubt that their PC shop is even blasting the frames prior to PC, as a lot of the weld spatter that I cleaned up came off very easily and would definitely have come off if the frame was abrasive blasted. I would have paid for the option to have the frame prepped, blasted, primed and powder coated in a different color if that option were available. I paid $800 for that locally (SF Bay Area prices) as a one-off so I'm sure FFR could charge $800-$1000 for this option and make a decent profit on it vs. the $500 for standard black PC with no prep.

Likewise, I think FFR could offer an option for powder coating the aluminum panels. They've done it for special editions in the past. I would have happily paid a fair price for coated panels with my kit purchase.

[CaptB]

Likewise, I think FFR could offer an option for powder coating the aluminum panels. They've done it for special editions in the past. I would have happily paid a fair price for coated panels with my kit purchase.

My panels are also at the powdercoat. The estimate was $300 to coat all the panels with a hammer tone. Another avenue that they can provide an upgrade and probably outsource it pretty easy.

[JohnK]

Y'all are either more skilled or braver than me. ;) I put more than one scratch in those aluminum panels in the process of fitting and drilling them. PC'ing them beforehand would have made fitting/drilling a lot more nerve-racking.

Edit: On the other hand, it would have saved the hassle of having to re-drill all the rivet holes after PC because they were all now slightly too small.

[egchewy79]

A use for the hood pin brackets? Do tell, Steve, I'm intrigued!

I made a dead pedal out of one of my hood pin brackets.

[Straversi]

A use for the hood pin brackets? Do tell, Steve, I'm intrigued!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73708&d=1505507583

See those brackets for my dash board grab handle braces in the background? Never throw away steel. Pretty sure I made some supports for my oil cooler too.
-Steve

[Jeff Kleiner]

Likewise, I think FFR could offer an option for powder coating the aluminum panels. They've done it for special editions in the past. I would have happily paid a fair price for coated panels with my kit purchase.

Sorry Dave but I don’t see that as viable. I can hear the phone calls now; “I just got my kit and have 2 scratched panels.”

Jeff

[J R Jones]

Re: Powder coat
Preliminary powder coat is a leap of faith. I recognize that I am the exception when it comes to modifications and optimizing. Therefore I am well versed in removing pre-applied powder coat for reconfiguring and welding. It stinks. Considering the posts I read here, I would pre-fit all major parts before I considered finish coating anything.
In terms of buying or selling these cars or any vehicle, it is only as good as the least of it. Do you watch BaT auctions for reference?
I don't look forward to spending my time and treasure to eventually state that it is this or does that, but I saved a lot of money. I am usually trying to be discrete when I hear a statement like that.
jim

[CraigS]

I agree w/ Jeff that powder coating the aluminum panels would be horribly expensive. First they would need to be completely installed w/ all needed rivets. 2nd remove and coat. 3rd package so they don't get damaged. OTOH, I would think that the bodies could be improved. The doors, hood, and trunk lid could be fitted. But the largest improvement would be to get rid of all the unfinished seems. Somehow boats and shower units are sold all the time that have no seems and are used as is.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...The doors, hood, and trunk lid could be fitted. But the largest improvement would be to get rid of all the unfinished seems. Somehow boats and shower units are sold all the time that have no seems and are used as is.

It's a classic "pay now or pay later". Moving panels such as the doors, hood and trunk can not be fitted until the body is in it's final position on the chassis with all aluminum in place. Although they are what many eyes are first drawn to the parting lines (not seams) only account for a small percentage of the total body & paint time.

Jeff

[Otee453]

There are so many different ways that people build these cars. Everyone’s taste and desire in a car is different. Some people build for appearance, some for road performance, some for racing performance, some just basic. Then opinions of what quality is and what looks good or is necessary for performance are all different.

I think the current offerings is pretty good. It allows someone to assemble a car, assemble and customize a car or build a car.... one’s own choosing.

[Jacob McCrea]

I would have paid at least 3k more to have the profound design and/or manufacturing errors in the Gen 2 Type 65 corrected:

1. Halo bars welded too high at the main hoop, hitting the roof before the body fully seated on the frame, requiring a day to cut the bars free, pull lower with a come-along and oxy-acetylene torch, and reweld at a point where they didn't hit the body, i.e., crack the body, then wear a hole through it.

2. A driver's header which overlapped the footbox by 1/4", requiring one or the other to be re-fabricated, even with the engine and transmission all the way forward.

3. A window which barely fits in the center of the frame, but has 3/8" gaps at the sides.

4. Headers and side pipes which simply didn't fit together, and couldn't be made to fit together, even after breaking 2 pipe expanders and lots of oxy-acetylene - because 2 tubes of roughly the same diameter will not slip together. Side pipes had to be cut apart and new connectors welded on.

5. Hood pivots on the frame were 1" too high at least, requiring, after much consternation, 2 more nuts welded to the frame to extend them downward.

I'm happy to sand oversize body panels to fit (no other way to do it given the reality of these kits), trim aluminum panels on the shear or otherwise (also probably impossible and absolutely impractical to manufacture them perfectly), deal with cheap parts to keep the kit cost down (see the comments about prices remaining steady, with which I agree), and so on. But FFR should have corrected the issue above before selling the kit. I would have happily paid more to not have spent probably 30 hours correcting those problems.

[J R Jones]

Tolerance stack-up is a term in design/engineering. The more parts that are assembled, the more part tolerances accumulate. Establishing datum points and prioritizing critical dimensions minimize fitment problems.
My 818 is a worst case with 11 or 12 thin body panels dependent on extended structure assemblies and other thin body panels for location. (It is awful, which my VA. father defined as a cat's arse stretched over a rain barrel)
Then you could have molds that are splashed off of parts rather than a master/plug. Reduced cure-in-mold time can result in out of mold distortion (speed-up the line)
Mold and part storage without appropriate support can lead to distortion. There is the conundrum, large complex panels have less tolerance stack-up, but have more potential for out of mold distortion.
Tangent issue: In the era of drawing board design, every design started with datum points, critical dimensioning and GDT.

"Geometric dimensioning and tolerancing, often referred to as GD&T, is a symbolic language used on engineering drawings and models to define the allowable deviation of feature geometry. ... Thus, GD&T is an exact language that enables designers to “say what they mean” with regard to their design models."

When a board designer was done with sheets describing a design, a senior designer known as the "checker" went over all the dimensions and directions, and revisions, to verify accuracy. The last document was an assembly drawing that assured all the individual parts worked together, and included all the assembly notes on fasteners, chemicals, even procedures.

Now we have CAD and all that I described is assumed to be in the "cloud". Parts are designed with little or no incremental dimensioning or "checking". The design went into a data file and directed a machine.
A giant leap of faith. What to do?
Pre-production assemblies off production tooling must be perfect.

CraigS: "Somehow boats and shower units are sold all the time that have no seems and are used as is".
When your high speed boat bottom (above 60MPH) is not true, instabilities lead to catastrophe. Water is hard at speed.
jim

[NAZ]

I've always built from scratch or modified a factory-built car or bike but it seems to me in my limited experience with kit cars, FFR has done a good job of designing a car that can be built by an average person with limited tools and experience. And for a reasonable cost. Are there opportunities for improvement? Sure.

The biggest issue I had with quality was something most may not even have noticed. The body is not even close to symmetrical -- there was more than 1/2" variation left to right, especially in the hardtop. That may not cause an issue with most builders but I was building a race car that required a very specific type of roll cage. The little car presented a challenge trying to package a roll cage and maintain body & helmet clearances and leave enough foot room. So, a 1/2" became a significant quality issue for my build.


I'm no expert with molds and fiberglass so I can't so for sure but it seems that you should be able to get much closer to symmetry than my body was. I've worked on many things using fiberglass and plastics that have much closer manufacturing tolerances and superior fit so many other companies have cracked to code on this. And no, I don't expect to pay more for a body that is closer to symmetrical.


But my overall experience with FFR and their 1st gen 33HR kit has been a good one. However, the whole kit car thing really doesn’t fit my needs as there were way too many modifications, I had to undertake that ended up making this choice much more expensive than had I gone with my original plan of building a street-legal race car from scratch. I estimate I spent ~$15K more purchasing a kit car over scratch built.

[Ted G]

I am just happy to be part of this community. I've been following FFR for over 20 years and pulled the trigger on the appropriate date of September 11th, 2021. I have learned so much already from this forum, cars and coffee events and from my engine builder, painter and parts suppliers (Forte, Breeze, Summit, Jeggs). I should hopefully have my lifelong dream car in my garage/nursery in late March of 2022. I've already purchase some aftermarket parts, prepped my garage even purchased some tools that I know I'll need to add to my collection.

Thank everyone for all the advice, comments and insight to my future build!

[FF33rod]

Interesting discussion. Coming at this from the '33 kit, things are a little bit different. The fiberglass is definitely the weaker link as it is with other kits but the quality level relative to the roadster is much lower and the inconsistency from kit to kit is puzzling. It would affect the piece part price very little to fix it IMO. The price of the '33 kit has not held constant. The base price is still the same BUT what is included in that price has changed I believe. As many have said, FFR does provide a decently complete kit for a very reasonable price. They could save themselves a significant amount of money that would go right to the profit column if they a) reduced the number of errors in parts shipped and b) increased the quality of the fiberglass (at least on the '33) so they didn't have to ship so many replacement parts. All that said, I'm still a big FFR fan and love the '33 they helped me put together.

Steve

[frankeeski]

I sit here scratching my head wondering why with all the "business experience" you all seem to have, why has no one jumped in and cornered the component car market? I mean the risk is minimal right?

For me, the Factory Five business model follows much of what I do in my own business'. Providing the best product you are able for a reasonable cost. Guess I've been doing that all wrong along with my friends over at Factory Five Racing.

[CraigS]

Frank your comment seems to indicate that you view this thread as pure criticism. I view this thread as 'constructive criticism' and it started w/ the premise that buyers may be willing to pay more to get more. I think most of the comments are worthwhile for FFR to consider.

[rich grsc]

I sit here scratching my head wondering why with all the "business experience" you all seem to have, why has no one jumped in and cornered the component car market? I mean the risk is minimal right?

For me, the Factory Five business model follows much of what I do in my own business'. Providing the best product you are able for a reasonable cost. Guess I've been doing that all wrong along with my friends over at Factory Five Racing.

AMEN Sounds like a bunch of millennial snowflakes whining that they didn't get a star when they bought their kit. See it's aKit , you have to build it yourself, how you want. If Factory Five fixed every little *****, the thing would be priced out of the reach of 50-60% of their customers. Heres a good idea, don't like it, go buy a Backdraft or Superformance. We all know they are 100% perfect

Sorry Craig you're wrong. You can't have a bunch of "extra" "quality" options. The logistics of that would spiral out of control and the costs would drive the price out of reach for many. How much worse would it be right now if such a idea was in place.

[JohnK]

There's always room for improvement. Good business people see that and capitalize on it. Others just see it as whining and eventually their competitors eat their lunch.

Why have there been four versions of the roadster (plus further improvements for the 20th and 25th anniversary cars) and three of the coupe? Wasn't the first version perfect?

[J R Jones]

AMEN Sounds like a bunch of millennial snowflakes whining that they didn't get a star when they bought their kit. See it's aKit , you have to build it yourself, how you want. If Factory Five fixed every little *****, the thing would be priced out of the reach of 50-60% of their customers. Heres a good idea, don't like it, go buy a Backdraft or Superformance. We all know they are 100% perfect

Sorry Craig you're wrong. You can't have a bunch of "extra" "quality" options. The logistics of that would spiral out of control and the costs would drive the price out of reach for many. How much worse would it be right now if such a idea was in place.

Customer
Cash Flow
Competitor

Ignore at your own peril.

[GoDadGo]

Here is something to ponder:

> You order your kit and configure it the way that best suits your idea of your dream car.
> For me it was a different driveline with a keep it simple stupid configuration.
> Factory Five Racing sold us the foundation to build what we wanted.
> The decision is choosing what path is right for each of us.
> It really is all about the journey of building our dreams.

The customization of these cars and how well we execute our builds is what sets Factory Five apart from other manufacturers.

[Joel Hauser]

What sold me on factory five is their opening line “The original Factory Five Mk1 Roadster was based on the innovation of using running gear from a single donor vehicle, namely, the high-performance Ford Mustang. The concept was, and still is, so simple. If you have our base Mk4 kit and running gear parts from a 1987-2004 Mustang GT donor car, you already have all the parts you need to build and drive your car!”
If the base kit cost much more, I don’t think I would have taken a chance on building my dream car. And while I realize there are a lot of upgrades and improvements FFR offers, I really appreciate the fact that they don't push them on you. In fact, I remember one of the FFR staff members telling us on the day we picked up the kit that building the basic/donor car is a good way to get started. Once you are into the build, you will a have better idea what improvements and options YOU want. You'll also see what donor parts need to be replaced.
Are there additional options I wish FFR offered? Oh yeah. First on my list would be an affordable, removable hard top. Maybe undercar exhaust? An electric conversion? But the basic kit is a remarkable, incredibly well designed product, that is a great, and affordable, first ground-up-project for the DIY mechanic. I hope they can keep it that way, at a price that allows more folks like me to enjoy this hobby.

[ztoolman44]

Interesting perspectives on here.

Perhaps instead of making a higher end kit, there could be more flexibility for folks to delete the unwanted items from the kit they are ordering? Just spit ballin' here.

I see huge challenges and costs associated with stocking endless optional equipment or upgrades. You don't see restaurants that make every type of food for the same reason. Pick your specialty and do it well. Try to make everyone happy and you end up making no one happy.

I think FFR has done a heck of a job keeping costs reasonable building a solid foundation to turn into your ultimate dream vehicle and a good price point for the average individual.

Also, how far should FFR stray from the "built not bought" theory?

[nucjd19]

Great discussion folks. I can see everyone's point of view in this discussion. From one aspect the idea of built not bought is the foundation of F5R. WhenI signed up for this experience I knew there would be aspects that I would have to learn to do and if above my head then get help. The price point was do able not only for me but my wife which was a much tougher sale. Would I spend a few thousand extra to have a gelcoat body that dropped on perfectly and the doors/hood/ trunk were all gapped correctly??? Probably... but I am sure the time to cost ratio does not work out for F5R. Again, I am more than happy and also a bit surprised at what I have accomplished so far. And I knew the body and paint work was gonna be the sticking point that I would source out. The journey has been the reward.. With that being said If F5R is giving out stars then I want one cause I have looked through all of the boxes and have yet to find one (But I am a Gen X'er so that is probably why I didn't get it):p . I also have a box with quite a few unused parts due to upgrades so the idea of à la carte ordering on certain things would be helpful to streamline our builds. On the other hand that would complicate the build out process at the factory.

[RBachman]

Here's a thought,

Rather than FFR, it's possible that the after market guys are more effective in stocking/assembling/providing upgrade packages. For the most part, the FFR after market companies already have many components for the upgrades we choose. Logistically and cost-wise, it may be more beneficial for these entrepreneurs to assemble major kits than FFR expanding it's warehouse and overhead. For example (and just tossing out brain storm stuff) here are some possible upgrade kits:

Upgraded sheet metal kit:
Interior upgrade Kit:
Safety kit:
Instrument Kit:
Improved Wiper Kit
Clamp-on Wiper Kit:
General Quality Kit: All the little things that are cheap, trouble prone, and commonly replaced
Poly Windshield Kit:
LED Lighting Kit w/Relays, dimmer and turn signal:
Anti-Loc Brake Kit/Power Brakes:
Exhaust Upgrade kit:
Fluids Kit: (Improved Brake and Coolant Reservoirs, Coolant Piping, Drilled/Tapped T-stat Housing, etc.)
Communications/Entertainment Kit:
Fastner Upgrade Kit:
Most Common Throttle and Engine/Drive Train Upgrades (like Forte's throttle linkage, drive shaft loop, upgraded accelerator pedal, reservoirs, coolant piping, under hood light, etc.)
---Fuel supply and return line upgrades (tubing, piping, clamps, connectors, filters, etc.)

[AC Bill]

The lower kit price has meant fulfilling the dream of thousands of people. An increase in price of even just a few thousand dollars, could dash someone's hope of buying one. They may not be as flush as some builders, but their dream is just as real.
Looking at it from a Canadian's prospective, FFR could potentially lose some northern customers, if there was a price increase. The dollar exchange means we are having to pay 25-30% more for the kit right from the get go. To add salt to the wound, Cnd import regulations for the kit, mean that several parts, (which are included with the kit in the US), have to be deleted. We don't receive any price reduction, or credit from FFR, so we have to pay for these parts again, when we replace them. Prices have traditionally been higher in Canada for almost everything, especially automotive parts wise. Even donor cars cost more.

If one wants better quality, and can afford it, than go buy better quality, but don't force the kit price up for others

[ChasNMe]

prices have gone up, not on the kit, $19,990, but the options for sure. since I ordered my kit in June, the options for me are $964 more today. I think that is almost $2k from where the options were 3 years ago when I started looking into building one of these. Im ok with it, actually I expected it. I was waiting for "The Sale" for almost 6 months before I started thinking . . . . the kit price hasn't changed and options haven't changed much . . . . I figured by the time my sale came around, the kit price would be up maybe $2-3k more saving me nothing but costing me potentially years waiting

I see most everyone's points in this thread, in the end I think we all can agree . . . . if we had to do it all over today knowing what we know, we would all do it again. even for the extra $964 its a no brainer. enjoy your build, mine should be here in a month, whoop whoop

[FF33rod]

The lower kit price has meant fulfilling the dream of thousands of people. An increase in price of even just a few thousand dollars, could dash someone's hope of buying one. They may not be as flush as some builders, but their dream is just as real.
Looking at it from a Canadian's prospective, FFR could potentially lose some northern customers, if there was a price increase. The dollar exchange means we are having to pay 25-30% more for the kit right from the get go. To add salt to the wound, Cnd import regulations for the kit, mean that several parts, (which are included with the kit in the US), have to be deleted. We don't receive any price reduction, or credit from FFR, so we have to pay for these parts again, when we replace them. Prices have traditionally been higher in Canada for almost everything, especially automotive parts wise. Even donor cars cost more.

If one wants better quality, and can afford it, than go buy better quality, but don't force the kit price up for others

Bill, the Canadian kit for the hot rod is 4K cheaper as a result of the missing components and I think there is a similar reduction on the roadster, no? In any case, having to get the completion kit is expensive for us Canadians. The freight on separate completion component shipment was pretty much the same as on the kit itself so that alone adds another ~3K...

Steve

[AC Bill]

Bill, the Canadian kit for the hot rod is 4K cheaper as a result of the missing components and I think there is a similar reduction on the roadster, no? In any case, having to get the completion kit is expensive for us Canadians. The freight on separate completion component shipment was pretty much the same as on the kit itself so that alone adds another ~3K...Steve

Well that is news to me. Sadly when I bought my MK3.1 back in 2008, there was no reduction, nor a credit that could be used for options. We paid the same as the US customers, and rec'd less parts. I believe it was roughly around $1000 back then, to replace the deleted parts. Most of the missing stuff I was able to source in Canada. The Koni shocks/springs were the most expensive parts that were deleted, and they were not available anywhere in Canada. So again your hit with the dollar exchange, shipping, duty, etc.

I just hate to see someone not being able to buy one because of a price increase. One can always upgrade things later, as they can afford them.

[Jeff Kleiner]

... Cnd import regulations for the kit, mean that several parts, (which are included with the kit in the US), have to be deleted. We don't receive any price reduction, or credit from FFR, so we have to pay for these parts again, when we replace them...

That's not the case Bill, there is credit for the parts that Transport Canada won't allow. While working the FFR display at the NSRA Nationals recently I helped a potential Canadian purchaser spec a '33 Hot Rod and remember that the US price was $19,990 and the Canadian price was $15,490.

Jeff

[narly1]

That's not the case Bill, there is credit for the parts that Transport Canada won't allow. While working the FFR display at the NSRA Nationals recently I helped a potential Canadian purchaser spec a '33 Hot Rod and remember that the US price was $19,990 and the Canadian price was $15,490.

Jeff

$15490 USD right Jeff? But missing $4500 USD worth of parts that have be purchased separately.

FFR's cost more for us Canadians, once you figure in duties, freight, and exchange which means we love them more right? :D

[ggunter]

Just curious Narly, how much do you think you will have in the finished car, minus paint. Just trying to get a feel for the cost to build one in Canada. I didn't realize the canadian kits were minus parts.

[narly1]

Full disclosure I'm not there yet. I'm just about finished my engine build though and by the time I'm done with it I'll have about $16K CAD (all-in including taxes, shipping etc.) Just for that part.

If I had to take a guess though I bet that's only about a 1/3 to 1/4 of what the whole build will cost.

I' sure there are others here who can give you a better total.

[J R Jones]

AC Bill made a point about his experience in 2008 buying a MK3.1.

This thread started with a somewhat different objective, but indeed it also questions price and content:
"I just read an interesting comment on another post of how much more would you pay for an upgraded kit? Better parts quality? Better engineered?"

Earlier this AM I read another post about another steering rack failure, actually two on the same Roadster. Now his set-up is being questioned. Not good.

As I stated earlier, and others have agreed, a level of quality is expected.
Cheaper is the excuse? How much does it cost the numerous builders to make it right? How much more does it cost to make the parts right?

"See it's aKit , (sic) you have to build it yourself, how you want. If Factory Five fixed every little *****, the thing would be priced out of the reach of 50-60% of their customers. Heres (sic) a good idea, don't like it, go buy a Backdraft or Superformance. We all know they are 100% perfect"
Actually I did not know that, but resale value is an expression of perceived value, and I find the number of low mileage replicas for sale at diverse prices, surprising.

Another one of my life experiences:
Back in the mid-seventies Harley Davidson, owned by AMF, was struggling with sales stagnation and determined upgraded product was in order. Myself and others were brought in for non-traditional development.
The new project objectives were improved comfort, performance and durability. Duh
At that time the Federal Government (EPA) was making demands for fuel and exhaust emission control and validation. The "Carb" lab was expanded to become the "Emission Lab"
The exhaust was sniffed on dynos before and after road test. The bikes were "bagged" and sniffed for evaporative emissions, before and after road test.
Rather than qualify every configuration, the concession was if the largest, heaviest examples of each model passed inspection, lighter models were assumed to be OK. The basic requirement was "clean" at the start and "clean" after 20K miles.
Oh yeah, and the all the parts had to be original and functional. We were not close, the bikes failed and fell apart long before the test ended.
So the emission requirement also was a quality/durability requirement, the development workload became huge and immediate. Failing meant shutting down the assembly lines.
Sales volume was a paltry 20K units per year, it was rumored that the company made more profit on "T" shirts.
Marketing determined those 20K customers were zealots that would prioritise a bike purchase over their kid's shoes. Actuarials said we were at less than 7% of the market, where few would realize we were gone, if the business failed.
Thankfully AMF had deep pockets to pay for the development expenses.
It was never a bragging point that the Government EPA program lead to better products, acceptable too, and purchased by, increasing numbers of more discriminating customers with higher expectations.
There is a downturn recently but annual production numbers have exceeded 350,000 units.
jim

[David Hodgkins]

Good discussion.

Had to drop a few posts... let's keep it civil please.

:)

[narly1]

My earlier comment on the other thread touched on the notion of a quality vs price (aka "value") "sweet spot".

Is the value too low (price too high for the quality of what you get)? Perhaps, based on some the constructive criticism shared here.

Is the value too high (price too low for the quality what you get)? Perhaps, based on what we know of FFR's sales position.

Or is the value just right, i.e. in the "sweet spot"?

Maybe we're barking up too narrow a tree...meaning that there are other aspects that factor into the value proposition.

For example: No one would argue that compared to a genuine Shelby that the cost accessibility of an FFR and thus value is there for the common man. Same with steel bodied 32/33 Fords vs the FFR33 variants.

Earl

[AC Bill]

That's not the case Bill, there is credit for the parts that Transport Canada won't allow. While working the FFR display at the NSRA Nationals recently I helped a potential Canadian purchaser spec a '33 Hot Rod and remember that the US price was $19,990 and the Canadian price was $15,490.Jeff

Well I am very happy to see that has now changed for Cnd customers. It's really only fair.

I was told at the time, that FFR had spent a lot of time, and money, working with Transport Canada, to get the kits approved to be imported into Canada. The lack of any credit for cost of the deleted parts, was apparently helping to compensate them for their efforts. The parts deleted back then were as mentioned, approx. $1000 US to replace.

I just reviewed my original invoice, and I paid $14,105, for the 3.1 base kit in Sept 2008. Landed cost was close to $23,000, with crating, shipping, duty brokerage fees, taxes, and the limited options I had ordered (the ones that were allowed to be imported, and shipped at the same time as the kit, as not all of them were).
I still feel it was worth it, I love my roadster.:)

[ggunter]

I am ignorant as to what Canadian customs allows, or does not allow in the way of parts. What is it that they disallow?

[narly1]

List is at https://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/hot-rod-parts-required-canada.pdf.

[FF33rod]

I am ignorant as to what Canadian customs allows, or does not allow in the way of parts. What is it that they disallow?

It's Transport Canada that has put some rules in place and it isn't so much that they are not allowing certain parts it's that they've rationalized that the inclusion of certain parts would mean that it is actually a car and another set of rules apply - including safety, etc... So to be classified as parts only, certain items are excluded (brakes, driveshaft, etc...).

The "hilarious" part, is that most of us use a third party such as Ryan Valin in Ontario to place the order with Factory Five for the completion kit which is then drop shipped to the builder. So in the end, FFR still ships the parts to the customer - it's just extra hassle, extra freight expense, extra, extra,... all because of the silly Transport Canada rules. THANKFULLY, FFR recognized this early on and worked with Transport Canada on an agreed documentation process that, if followed correctly as outlined on the FFR site, goes very smoothly. Just never call it anything other than parts! :)

Bet we digress, back to regularly scheduled programming....

Steve

[RRussellTx]

Read an article today about what they are calling ‘Skimpflation’ that reminded me of this thread.
It’s not just Factory Five.


https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2021/10/26/1048892388/meet-skimpflation-a-reason-inflation-is-worse-than-the-government-says-it-is

[narly1]

Google "decontenting cars"...

[460.465USMC]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73708&d=1505507583

See those brackets for my dash board grab handle braces in the background? Never throw away steel. Pretty sure I made some supports for my oil cooler too.
-Steve

Thanks for the tip, Steve! I'm literally working on bracing my dash today. I'll look to see if my kit came with these brackets to see if I can do the same with my grab handle brackets/bracing.

Edit: looked through my inventory and don't see them. No big loss I suppose since I'm hearing most (all?) don't use them anyway.

14608 LH HOOD PIN MOUNT PLATE, FRONT, 1/16" STEEL
13532 RH HOOD PIN MOUNT PLATE, FRONT, 1/16" STEEL



P.S. Like you I never toss items like this--as long as they're not too bulky to store. Guess it's an artifact from how I was raised.