Seeking advice on possible Type 65 Coupe build

[nick729]

Greetings :)

I think the time has come for me to finally pull the plug and build a type 65 coupe, that i have been interested in for a few years now. I have some experience in building kit cars, i have built 2 lotus 7 based kit cars (Westfield FW special and Sport 250), the building part was the fun part, but i don't really bother driving them. Some pics of my last build:154598154599154600154601154602

Long story short, i am interested in Type 65 Coupe, however, since i am located in Europe and i will have to order one from a European distributor, which means that i have to carefully pick and choose all the options and source the parts all in one go as the kit is not really a complete kit.. The car is solely for weekend fun drives, no track use, but i do like the white frame of Coupe-R, and the FFR red show-car is what i would most likely go for (minus the road race spoiler)

The options so far are:
FFR Coupe R kit
31 spline driveshaft
302/351 engine/transmount kit
Metric GPS gauge set (kmh)
Standard tubular lower control arms
Powder coated chassis - White
Body with cut-outs
Independent rear suspension system
Standard powersteering
Nose side ducts & Rear side ducts
A/C heater defroster (not sure if this is needed)
351W ceramic coated headers
Passenger race seat and harness
Windshield wipers
Interior carpet
Aluminium interior door handles
Side windows
Front and rear swaybars
Aero vents
Double adjustable KONI's
IRS completion components (diff, spindles, hubs etc)
Wilwood front and rear big brake kit

I am least familiar with the engine/gearbox/diff as i have no experience with American muscle cars at all..

*Engine recommendations - I was offered 427 Dart (EFI) engine with ~500bhp. Aluminator 52XS is also a possibility but i am still awaiting info on what else is available. Any comments/suggestions here? I like the idea of big displacement engine with ~600bhp (bhp figure has no logical reason for it)
*Gearbox - i was offered TKO 500 or 600 for the 427. From my understanding TC56 Magnum is a superior gearbox? Any opinions here?
*Diff - 3.55 is what is being supplied. I read that 3.73 is the optimal gearing for TC56 gearbox?..

Any suggestions and tips are greatly appreciated :)

P.s. my last built car was 280bhp and 670kg which is roughly the same power/weight as Type 65 with 427Dart engine.

[Indy Shu]

My thoughts...
- if not racing, I would stick with the standard chassis and have it coated white locally (if F5 wouldn't do it for you). I don't know all of the frame differences of the R, but there are several added bars that I would not want. 2 go across the passenger's line of site, and the side protection bars make it tougher climbing in and out.
- with big HP, you'll be fine with the 3.55 diff.

[Skuzzy]

If you are doing a 427, I would go with the TKX transmission. The T56 is a great transmission, but it is heavier and with the torque of the 427, you really do not need the added over drive. For your use the wide ratio TKX would be a good choice. Lighter and as good as the T56.

My opinion, of course.

EDIT: You really should not consider either TKO transmissions as the TKX replaces both and is a far better transmission.

[David Williamson]

unless you are going to race it get the regular frame, getting in and out of the car is tight enough without the extra door frame tubing of the race frame. Also recomend power steering.
Verify how to register it for your location, some areas are not easy and you don't want expensive surprises.
David W

[nick729]

thank you all for you input!

@indy Shu

no plans on racing, as we don't even have a decent race track over here :( Seems like a much better idea, to go for standard.

@Skuzzy

I spoke to the distributor and it was suggested that 427 EFI would be not as reliable as the Coyote/Voodoo. Is that really the case? I still fancy the idea of having a large displacement engine under the hood :) Is that true? I am not keen on the idea of going 317ci or less and sub 500 hp...

@David Williamson

Just like the rest of europe, the possibilities to register it are slim to none - i am aware of that, but thank you for the heads up :)
i am 190cm ~6.2 would i have any problem fitting in, it seems like a relatively small car.

I had a look at the blueprint engines and they no longer offer TKO's, they have all been replaced with TKX. Also, the highest output power FORD 427 is 540 bhp, but instead you can get a GM LS427 with 625 bhp. Are GM engines also suitable for Type 65? (https://www.factoryfiveengines.com/blueprint-engines-factory-five-engines/blueprint-engines-factory-five-complete-pricing-list)

[q4stix]

What about ordering a Coyote and adding a supercharger to it? You'd get the higher horsepower, drivability, and reliability with it while still being cheaper than a 52XS.

If you want the big block because of the displacement then I'd think you could change the cam on the 427 and do a few minor things to bump up the output.

I do believe Factory Five has started making engine mounts for the LS in the Coupe so a quick call or email to them can confirm. Multiple people use LS engines in the Roadster and I know at least one is doing it in the Coupe


Side question... how can you drive it on the weekend if it's not registered? Here running around with no plate or registration can cause issues for sure

[nick729]

What about ordering a Coyote and adding a supercharger to it? You'd get the higher horsepower, drivability, and reliability with it while still being cheaper than a 52XS.

If you want the big block because of the displacement then I'd think you could change the cam on the 427 and do a few minor things to bump up the output.

I do believe Factory Five has started making engine mounts for the LS in the Coupe so a quick call or email to them can confirm. Multiple people use LS engines in the Roadster and I know at least one is doing it in the Coupe

Side question... how can you drive it on the weekend if it's not registered? Here running around with no plate or registration can cause issues for sure

Yes, the coyote with a blower was suggested by the distributor and it is something i am also considering - however, i still have this unexplained desire for a 427, even though i have never even seen or heard one... :)

I would assume so, as the GM LS427 is from the FFR engine package. I will give them a call and see what they say, along with a few other questions i have. Is there any reason why the FORD engines are significantly more expensive than GM (despite the later producing more power)?

There are ways around the registration issues, you can use these special plates which are used by car traders (it's like a temp plate, but is valid for 2 years and you can put it on any car at all at will, but the downside is that you have to register online every time you are planning on driving it).

[klawrence]

Could always go the ford 7.3 godzilla route.

[FracAG1980]

Yes, the coyote with a blower was suggested by the distributor and it is something i am also considering - however, i still have this unexplained desire for a 427, even though i have never even seen or heard one... :)

I would assume so, as the GM LS427 is from the FFR engine package. I will give them a call and see what they say, along with a few other questions i have. Is there any reason why the FORD engines are significantly more expensive than GM (despite the later producing more power)?

There are ways around the registration issues, you can use these special plates which are used by car traders (it's like a temp plate, but is valid for 2 years and you can put it on any car at all at will, but the downside is that you have to register online every time you are planning on driving it).

FFR has a video comparing engines and they fire them up and you can hear each.

https://youtu.be/fpjwKZEgzj8

This is the link.

[nick729]

FFR has a video comparing engines and they fire them up and you can hear each.

https://youtu.be/fpjwKZEgzj8

This is the link.


omg, how did i miss that video... Answered so many questions, even the GM LS engine mounts and headers for coupe :)

That 427 sounds amazing :)

Any downsides on going GM LS427 vs Ford 427? I am not familiar with US v8 at all...

[Bob-STL]

FFR has a video comparing engines and they fire them up and you can hear each.

https://youtu.be/fpjwKZEgzj8

This is the link.

This video is great!!!

I think it is essential for anyone considering building one of these cars.

Bob

[FracAG1980]

omg, how did i miss that video... Answered so many questions, even the GM LS engine mounts and headers for coupe :)

That 427 sounds amazing :)

Any downsides on going GM LS427 vs Ford 427? I am not familiar with US v8 at all...

I'll let practically anyone else on here answer that as I have no clue.

[Skuzzy]

omg, how did i miss that video... Answered so many questions, even the GM LS engine mounts and headers for coupe :)

That 427 sounds amazing :)

Any downsides on going GM LS427 vs Ford 427? I am not familiar with US v8 at all...


omg, how did i miss that video... Answered so many questions, even the GM LS engine mounts and headers for coupe :)

That 427 sounds amazing :)

Any downsides on going GM LS427 vs Ford 427? I am not familiar with US v8 at all...

Depends on which Ford 427 you are talking about. The FE engine is heavy, parts are really expensive, and there are fewer suppliers supporting the format. The Windsor 427 is another story. Between the Windsor 427 and the LS427, it would be a tough choice. That said, the LS427 is more modern. The LS427 is cheaper than an aluminum blocked based Ford Windsor 427 as well. The LS427 is also a tab bit smaller than the Windsor 427.

It is hard not to like this LS427. Both engines are fine motors. Properly setup they can give many thousands of miles of reliable fun.

My opinion: That said when it comes time to sell the Coupe, the Ford engine is going to be more popular and hold the value of the car better than the LS427.

[nick729]

Depends on which Ford 427 you are talking about. The FE engine is heavy, parts are really expensive, and there are fewer suppliers supporting the format. The Windsor 427 is another story. Between the Windsor 427 and the LS427, it would be a tough choice. That said, the LS427 is more modern. The LS427 is cheaper than an aluminum blocked based Ford Windsor 427 as well. The LS427 is also a tab bit smaller than the Windsor 427.

It is hard not to like this LS427. Both engines are fine motors. Properly setup they can give many thousands of miles of reliable fun.

My opinion: That said when it comes time to sell the Coupe, the Ford engine is going to be more popular and hold the value of the car better than the LS427.

I am looking into:

FORD 427 Fuel Injected H0 Stage 2 (BPF4274CTCK) with TKX Steel Bell (power rated at 541/519)
GM LS427 (PSLS4272CTF) with either TKX Steel Bell or T56 Steel Bell (power rated at 625/565)

Both engines are from www.factoryfiveengines.com

I guess Ford has the "authentic" look, while the GM has the power advantage.

What do you have in mind when saying properly setup? My understanding is that if you go with a complete FactoryFive package, you can hardly go wrong if you don't improvise :)

I'm not worried about resale value and willing to sell at a significant loss if i ever need/want to. Daytona's are few and rare in Europe, the engine choice has little impact in my opinion, and instead build quality is what matters :)

[GoDadGo]

If you are going with a 351 Windsor style engine (427 Stroker) then know that you will likely need to gain hood clearance.
With that said, running an Edelbrock Torker II Intake will boost top-end power, tame low-end torque while giving you the most hood clearance possible.
Just understand that a lot of folks are NOT fans of single plane manifolds, but I find that they work very well in light vehicles that are properly geared & cammed.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5081

Good Luck Building Your Dream!

[Skuzzy]

I am looking into:

FORD 427 Fuel Injected H0 Stage 2 (BPF4274CTCK) with TKX Steel Bell (power rated at 541/519)
GM LS427 (PSLS4272CTF) with either TKX Steel Bell or T56 Steel Bell (power rated at 625/565)

Both engines are from www.factoryfiveengines.com

I guess Ford has the "authentic" look, while the GM has the power advantage.

What do you have in mind when saying properly setup? My understanding is that if you go with a complete FactoryFive package, you can hardly go wrong if you don't improvise :)

I'm not worried about resale value and willing to sell at a significant loss if i ever need/want to. Daytona's are few and rare in Europe, the engine choice has little impact in my opinion, and instead build quality is what matters :)

I see no reason for you not to use the GM motor. Purists may give you grief about it and that would be the only thing in the way. The LS427 is a fine motor. I still think a T56 is overkill for either of these engines. The torque curve is so fat and strong you really need not worry about shifting to keep the engine in its power/torque RPM band.

At the end of the day, it is your car. You need to do what makes you happy. Just be mindful you are dropping a high horsepower, high torque engine into a very light car. Mix that with curvy roads and it is easy to lose control if you are into spirited driving.

[nick729]

I see no reason for you not to use the GM motor. Purists may give you grief about it and that would be the only thing in the way. The LS427 is a fine motor. I still think a T56 is overkill for either of these engines. The torque curve is so fat and strong you really need not worry about shifting to keep the engine in its power/torque RPM band.

At the end of the day, it is your car. You need to do what makes you happy. Just be mindful you are dropping a high horsepower, high torque engine into a very light car. Mix that with curvy roads and it is easy to lose control if you are into spirited driving.

Thanks for the input, i don't personally see any problem of putting LS427 if it is a better motor, or in my case a more powerful motor. :) I was told that there is a possibility to upgrade to aluminum block instead of the iron one.. I have also settled on the TKX :)

You are right about the what makes you happy, but the problem is that i have no clue about US motors/transmissions and such, hence, the questions, so that i do not end up with something that makes me happy in my head , but ends up totally undriveable in reality due to poor decisions when choosing the parts :)

[Skuzzy]

You have not mentioned the Ford Coyote as an option. If you are looing for drivability and fun, that engine with a T56 behind should be considered.

If you are bent on a 427, then the LS427 is probably how you need to go. Dollar for dollar the LS427 is a win.

[GoDadGo]

If you want to come over to the Dark Side, then the LS-3 is the best way to do it.

Carberated Option:
https://paceperformance.com/i-20689705-cpsls376515t56-chevrolet-performance-ls3-533hp-carbureted-engine-with-t56-6-speed-500-00-rebate.html

Multiport E.F.I. Option:
https://paceperformance.com/i-20689699-cpsls376525t56-chevrolet-performance-ls3-525hp-engine-with-t56-6-speed.html

The Redbone Roadster:
https://youtu.be/9WEe6-wdNtA

Yes, I Love Dark Side Power & 6-Speed Transmissions!

[Skuzzy]

Well just for the record, I am dropping a Windsor 427 into my Coupe, with a TKX. I would rather it be the Coyote with the T56, but I already have the Windsor sitting here. and it has never been used.

[nick729]

You have not mentioned the Ford Coyote as an option. If you are looing for drivability and fun, that engine with a T56 behind should be considered.

If you are bent on a 427, then the LS427 is probably how you need to go. Dollar for dollar the LS427 is a win.

I did mention that Coyote was suggested by the distributor, that was and is their go to engine :) It is something i am also considering, with or without a blower..

What is the main advantage of going Coyote over 427? More modern and refined engine, easier to drive?

[daxtojeiro]

Hi Nick,
why do you need to use a distributor? I am in the UK and bought directly from FFR as a normal customer. I had a few emails with them to start with, other than that it was as easy as any American customer.
I sorted my own freight out, again very easy and bought my own engine / gearbox here in the UK.

Also, I'm not sure what sort of registration system you might have for Kit cars, but we have an IVA test and I don't think the Type R would pass that, not without some heavy mods anyway,
thanks
Phil

[nick729]

Hi Nick,
why do you need to use a distributor? I am in the UK and bought directly from FFR as a normal customer. I had a few emails with them to start with, other than that it was as easy as any American customer.
I sorted my own freight out, again very easy and bought my own engine / gearbox here in the UK.

Also, I'm not sure what sort of registration system you might have for Kit cars, but we have an IVA test and I don't think the Type R would pass that, not without some heavy mods anyway,
thanks
Phil

Main reason, is that i want a complete full package from 1 place, so that if something does not work or is not suitable i know who to blame. I don't fancy the idea of sourcing my own parts especially when i have no clue what exactly is needed..

[GoDadGo]

Well just for the record, I am dropping a Windsor 427 into my Coupe, with a TKX. I would rather it be the Coyote with the T56, but I already have the Windsor sitting here. and it has never been used.

While the Coyote is a fine engine, the sound, feel, and torque of a Big Inch Push Rod 7.0 Litre V/8 is always a Crowd-Pleaser!

Since these cars tip the scales just over the one-ton mark, your power to weight ratio will be insane.

Enjoy The Insanity & Good Luck!

[Skuzzy]

I did mention that Coyote was suggested by the distributor, that was and is their go to engine :) It is something i am also considering, with or without a blower..

What is the main advantage of going Coyote over 427? More modern and refined engine, easier to drive?

It is more modern and efficient. It has a very wide torque curve making it really easy to drive, very reliable, and a lot of fun. It likes to wind up. It is also very easy to make a lot of horsepower with. The only downside is, it really is difficult to make look pretty under the hood/bonnet.



While the Coyote is a fine engine, the sound, feel, and torque of a Big Inch Push Rod 7.0 Litre V/8 is always a Crowd-Pleaser!
Remember to pick a rear-end gear ratio that works well with your engine's RPM range and you'll soon have a ton of fun.
Since these cars tip the scales just over the one-ton mark, your Power to Weight Ratio will be Insane!
With that said, Enjoy The Insanity & Good Luck!


Oh, I have been around hot rods for over 60 years. This is going to be my daily driver so I have to balance things a bit more. I'll have two builds for my engine. One for run at one of my bucket list items and the other for the street. The daily driver should have no issue getting into 5th by 70MPH with a 3.31 rear gear.

The bucket list build should have just over 600HP, while the street build (different cam, pistons. and intake manifold) will have around 475HP.

[nick729]

Thank you all so much for the input :)

1 more question regarding tires and rims. I had a look at what is available in europe and decided that it will be far easier to just go with the classic Halibrand wheels offered by FFR.

I will go with the largest and widest possible R18 9j and 11j. Question is, what are the widest tires i could fit? 255 and 315? i've seen 275 and 335 in some posts, but it was unclear if they were actually fitted to 9j and 11j... Also, it seems like all the posts are with R17 rims (not sure if that makes any difference)...

[Skuzzy]

The 335/30x18 tire needs a 12" wide rim. 11" is really too narrow.
A 305/35x18 tire should be comfortable on an 11" wide rim. It should fill the wheel well a bit better as well as it is about an inch larger in diameter than the 335/30x18. A 315/30x18 will also fit an 11" wide rim and be slightly smaller in diameter than the 305/35x18.

On the 9" rim, I would be looking at a 255/35x18 tire. You could do a 275/35x18. The sidewalls would be curved in more than the 255/35x18.

[BLUE KNIGHT]

Greetings :)

I think the time has come for me to finally pull the plug and build a type 65 coupe, that i have been interested in for a few years now. I have some experience in building kit cars, i have built 2 lotus 7 based kit cars (Westfield FW special and Sport 250), the building part was the fun part, but i don't really bother driving them. Some pics of my last build:154598154599154600154601154602

Long story short, i am interested in Type 65 Coupe, however, since i am located in Europe and i will have to order one from a European distributor, which means that i have to carefully pick and choose all the options and source the parts all in one go as the kit is not really a complete kit.. The car is solely for weekend fun drives, no track use, but i do like the white frame of Coupe-R, and the FFR red show-car is what i would most likely go for (minus the road race spoiler)

The options so far are:
FFR Coupe R kit
31 spline driveshaft
302/351 engine/transmount kit
Metric GPS gauge set (kmh)
Standard tubular lower control arms
Powder coated chassis - White
Body with cut-outs
Independent rear suspension system
Standard powersteering
Nose side ducts & Rear side ducts
A/C heater defroster (not sure if this is needed)
351W ceramic coated headers
Passenger race seat and harness
Windshield wipers
Interior carpet
Aluminium interior door handles
Side windows
Front and rear swaybars
Aero vents
Double adjustable KONI's
IRS completion components (diff, spindles, hubs etc)
Wilwood front and rear big brake kit

I am least familiar with the engine/gearbox/diff as i have no experience with American muscle cars at all..

*Engine recommendations - I was offered 427 Dart (EFI) engine with ~500bhp. Aluminator 52XS is also a possibility but i am still awaiting info on what else is available. Any comments/suggestions here? I like the idea of big displacement engine with ~600bhp (bhp figure has no logical reason for it)
*Gearbox - i was offered TKO 500 or 600 for the 427. From my understanding TC56 Magnum is a superior gearbox? Any opinions here?
*Diff - 3.55 is what is being supplied. I read that 3.73 is the optimal gearing for TC56 gearbox?..

Any suggestions and tips are greatly appreciated :)

P.s. my last built car was 280bhp and 670kg which is roughly the same power/weight as Type 65 with 427Dart engine.

The coupe has a two part door system ... the door " skin " .... and the frame that is inside and attaches to the hinges .... the skin ( the inside flat part ) attaches in four ( minimum ) spots on the frame ..... It's close but needs to be adjusted by uses shims / washers to get it perfect ..... What I used ( for a spacer/shim ) was some open cell foam that I had saved from a shipping order. It compresses well but also remains " springy ? "..... I glued some 4 " X 1/4" thick strips to the inside surface of the door skin where the holes ( for attachment bolts ) are. You only have to tighten the attaching bolts until the outside door surface matches the body ..... hope this helps .....Mike

[nick729]

The 335/30x18 tire needs a 12" wide rim. 11" is really too narrow.
A 305/35x18 tire should be comfortable on an 11" wide rim. It should fill the wheel well a bit better as well as it is about an inch larger in diameter than the 335/30x18. A 315/30x18 will also fit an 11" wide rim and be slightly smaller in diameter than the 305/35x18.

On the 9" rim, I would be looking at a 255/35x18 tire. You could do a 275/35x18. The sidewalls would be curved in more than the 255/35x18.

Thank you!

I had a look through, and finding tires is also proving extremely difficult for R18 rims...

Maybe i will have to just go with the FFR R17 that come with tires. I've never heard of Mickey Thompson tires... Are they any good? Also, rear tires seem weird as the r17 rear rims are 10.5J, they are fitted with 315/35...

I would've tried to fit Toyo Proxes r888r or Michelin Cup 2's onto r18's.

[Skuzzy]

Thank you!

I had a look through, and finding tires is also proving extremely difficult for R18 rims...

Maybe i will have to just go with the FFR R17 that come with tires. I've never heard of Mickey Thompson tires... Are they any good? Also, rear tires seem weird as the r17 rear rims are 10.5J, they are fitted with 315/35...

I would've tried to fit Toyo Proxes r888r or Michelin Cup 2's onto r18's.

I am going to make use of two sets of wheels and tires. Once for the track and one for the street. For the street, I am looking at the Michelin Pilot Sport 4s tires to fit 18" diameter wheels. 9" and 10" wide, front and back. For the front I am thinking about the 255/35x18 and rear 295/30x18.

I am not a Mickey Thompson fan for street tires. For street driving a fat, sticky tire is a chore. They tend to exacerbate road irregularities and are happy to transmit that to the steering wheel. Natural by-product of a very light car. On the other extreme, you do not want a rock hard tire either as it makes it more difficult to deal with higher horsepower engines.

In my case, I am hoping the Michelin tires will strike that balance between being too soft and too hard.

[David Williamson]

i have Michelin Pilot Sport tires on mine 265/35 18 front and 315/30 18 rear on the FFR wheels, 9X18 front and 11X18 rear. They work well but with about 450 Hp you have to be careful as it is easy to spin them in the first 2 gears and if the road is bad in 3rd.
David W

[Chris @ Forma]

Nick,

The FFR side windows are non operable with a slide open port. A couple of years ago we developed a fully operable window that opens completely. If you are interested PM me and we can discuss. We have also recently developed an A/C system that provides Heat/AC, defrost, dash and floor. We haven't offered the A/C system for sale just yet as we are underwater with work and haven't had the time to develop installation instructions and packaging for shipping units. Once again P/M me if you are interested.

chris@formacars.com

[nick729]

Right, so had a further look at blueprint engines website and stumbled upon (as far as i can tell) the same GM LS427 but supercharged pushing 800hp and 1060nm. This realy tickles my fancy :) it has never been fitted to a type 65 coupe, thus it is hard to say if there will be any clearance issues. I assume a custom hood scoop would be needed.

So the question i guess is this; since this is not a track car build would it be impossible to drive (once again i have 0 experience with us V8s, hence the stupid questions)? I read that big cam shafts make cars undriveable on the street, but i have no idea what is considered "big"..

Since this is a summer only car, i like it to be over the top, so that on those rare ocassions i will get to drive it - it will make my day :) hence the desire for 427, over the more sensible coyote choice ;)

[Blueblood]

Other members here are much more experienced so may offer better advice, but as far as big cams go the engine really has to be designed for that kind of cam and what the engine is going in and what you are using the car for is also taken into account. I have a couple of cars with engines built for big cams and from my experience it changes where the power curve comes in. Typically big cams like bigger revs so low end torque is generally sacrificed. However I have been told 65 coupes don’t need the low end as much. Idle characteristics can change as well depending on you overlap and lift making the idle choppy. I generally like the sound a big cam gives and like the extra revs the motor likes. You need to consider how much power and where in the power band it arrives. Good luck any of the engines you are considering will be very fast and fun in the coupe. I just received mine and will be building a larger motor for it as well.

[Skuzzy]

What kind of cars are you used to? What do you drive right now? A lot of what you are asking is a matter of perspective.

[nick729]

I currently drive 2020 RS6 and 2021 model 3 performance and during the summer i mostly drive 2019 KTM Superduke. I am used to high power cars, so it won't be an issue :)

My expectation here is to have something over the top i guess ( that sounds amazing, looks wonderfull and is very fast), but at the same time having little knowledge of US v8's, i don't want to build something i will hate in the end :)

[David Williamson]

When I planned my build I wanted the old school carb look so I picked a Dart 363 engine with Fitech injection. There have been no new standard Ford production push rod engines made in 20 plus years except for Ford Racing and companies like Dart. The common production "Windsor" engines come in 2 versions (there are older 260 and 289's) 302 and 351 cubic inch. Both are 4 inch bore, the 302 is 3 inch stroke and the 351 is 3.5 inch stroke. The 351 block is taller and in the coupe with the low hood the intake system must be picked with this in mind or the hood modified to fit.
There are several common bore and stroke sizes you will see. The 302 block will often be build as 342, 347 or 363 with a .030, .060 or .125 over bore and 3.4 inch stroke. The 351 block will often be build as a 408 or 427 with a .030 or .060 over bore and 4 inch stroke. These engines will produce 400 to 500+ Hp without turbo's or blowers. My 363 makes about 450 Hp and to get an idea how it performs, passing on a 2 lane road just using a down shift to 4th (5 soeed manual) it accelerates from 90 km (55 mph) to 160 km (100 mph) around 1 car and at 160 km at 5000 rpm (6500 rpm red line) it is pulling harder than it was at 90 km. I could use 3rd and shift up to 4th but there is no need.
David W

[lewma]

nick729

I'm a few months into my build. I went with a GM427LS and T56 package from BluePrint. Here's a link to my album showing some pics of the engine/trans and the adventures we had getting it to fit in the Gen3 chassis

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EghMwuGfN81fQiHi6

Let me know if you have questions

mark

[Skuzzy]

I currently drive 2020 RS6 and 2021 model 3 performance and during the summer i mostly drive 2019 KTM Superduke. I am used to high power cars, so it won't be an issue :)

My expectation here is to have something over the top i guess ( that sounds amazing, looks wonderfull and is very fast), but at the same time having little knowledge of US v8's, i don't want to build something i will hate in the end :)

There will be a vast difference in the cars you are driving and the one you want to build. The RS6 has a horsepower to weight ratio of around .11 to 1. The Type 65 with 600HP is going to be around .24 to 1. More than double the RS6.

A supercharged engine is going to be a handful to launch and keep traction, particularly with a big stroker like a 427. You will not have any traction control to help you.

At the end of the day, it is your decision. If I were you, I would start with less horsepower in the Coupe and if you feel it is not enough, then rebuild the engine to make more, or buy another one and sell the old one. Another course you can take is to drive a Cobra around a track and see how you feel about it. Drive a Cobra. (https://racingadventures.com/cobra/)

[Deldiablo]

I've visited the Factory 5 factory in 2019, and when asking for a HP recommendation the number was 350-400 - for a car to handle well (i.e. not smoke tires in 4th gear). Using exhaust gas to up the engine power can have an added benefit of reducing sound levels. Ford was of course the original engine supplier back in '65, but this was a special, tuned 289 cu in, with twin choke Weber, producing 385Hp and revving up to 9,000 RPM, with a 3.07 ring & pinion gear. The GEN3 Factory 5 coupe is about 6% larger than the original it is a tribute to. 12% frontal area increase would require 433Hp to be equivalent (?), so this could make a GEN3 Coyote with 460Hp a good fit (from a power point of view).

[nick729]

@skuzzy

Yes, i am aware of the power difference, my previous kit car was roughly 0.19:1, granted not 0.24:1 but still closer than my dailies :)

I scrapped the idea of going supercharged 427, due to issues of fitting it in, but still leaning towards the LS427, i am still waiting for a quote on both engines though...

I am not considering the possibility of rebuilding or swapping out the engine, i am on the other side of the world, thus getting parts/replacements is a long and annoying process, hence, why i want a complete package from one place (in this case buying through a distributor).

One thing that is making me anxious is reading all these stories about incomplete packages and taking forever to get the missing bits from FFR and this is for US residents.. I can only imagine how painfully slow and annoying it will be to get missing/wrong parts sent to Europe...

[FracAG1980]

I've visited the Factory 5 factory in 2019, and when asking for a HP recommendation the number was 350-400 - for a car to handle well (i.e. not smoke tires in 4th gear). Using exhaust gas to up the engine power can have an added benefit of reducing sound levels. Ford was of course the original engine supplier back in '65, but this was a special, tuned 289 cu in, with twin choke Weber, producing 385Hp and revving up to 9,000 RPM, with a 3.07 ring & pinion gear. The GEN3 Factory 5 coupe is about 6% larger than the original it is a tribute to. 12% frontal area increase would require 433Hp to be equivalent (?), so this could make a GEN3 Coyote with 460Hp a good fit (from a power point of view).

These opinions are completely mine and mine alone and are not intended to argue. Everyone's engine choice is theirs and there are no wrong answers as 99.9% are in this for fun.

You are exactly right about the design differences between the original coupe and the FFR coupe tribute. However, the only reason the coupe was ever built was top speed. The Cobra could do everything Shelby wanted unless you wanted to go faster than 155 mph. The 12% greater frontal area of the FFR coupe only matters for needed horsepower at speeds above 175 mph. Not many of us will ever see that. The feel for the car from 0-100 mph will be 99% of the driving most of us will do. Those who track and race their cars are usually looking at 0 - 150 mph which is still below the maximum speed the Cobra would perform at. The extra time these huge engines will save in accelerating from 0-100 mph can be made up in better driving lines and proper braking/accelerating in road racing. There is a reason there are only a few racecar drivers consistently win and it is not just the biggest/baddest car. Shelby & Brock only had 2 years to build & refine the Daytona Coupe. I would have loved to see the Daytona battle the GT40 in 1966. They had learned that fuel efficiency could play a big role in the endurance races, the Daytona Coupe had all other cars crushed at the time in this category (but its not a very sexy category). My opinion, don't put too big of an engine in the car that makes it too hard to handle on the street if that is where you will be driving. If the track is where you are going, spend more money on improving your skills and car on cornering and braking. again, just my opinion.

Steve

[nick729]

Hopefully this will be my last post in this topic, as i am pretty much ready to place the orders for the full kit.

I would like to double check before placing the order if i have missed out on something important or maybe overlooked something?

I decided to go with the GM LS427 + T56 Blueprint crate with all the accessories:

The options on the Kit itself are as follows:
Powder coated chassis
Coupe GPS metric Gauges (kmh)
LS Mounts
LS Series Stainless steel 4 port full length with ball flange collector exhaust system
Manual Clutch Release: Package includes clutch quadrant, cable and hardware
31 spline Driveshaft for LS +T56 with 2015 IRS
Body cut-outs of side pipes, body mounts, lightning accessories, gas cap and side openings
Competition High-back Aluminum Race Seats with Black fabric covers
Power Steering kit
Standart width tubular Front lower control arms front suspension
2015 Mustang-based Independent Rear suspension kit with Koni coil-overs, tubular control arms and cv axles
A/C - Heater Defroster for 302/351W
Coupe interior Black Carpet Package
14" leather steering wheel Upgrade
Brushed Aluminum Interior door handles
Coupe Side Windows
Gen 3 Coupe floormat
Coupe Sound insulation kit
Battery Cutoff switch
Front swaybar
2015 IRS rear swaybar
Aero vents, 1 offset Hood scoop & 2 small footbox vents
Vintage Halibrand Replica Wheels 18x9 front and 18x11 rear
Upgrade: double adjustable Koni Front and Rear IRS Shocks (set of 4)
2018 Mustang IRS 3.55 center section, spindles and Hubs
12.88 Front Wilwood Brakes, Red Calipers, Drilled & Slotted
12.88 2015 IRS Willwood brakes, Red Calipers, Drilled & Slotted

My goal is to have a complete package with everything i will need to complete the build, without having to source parts from other suppliers.

I am aware that i will need tires, battery and fuel pump.

Any comments? Suggestions?

[Skuzzy]

I have yet to build mine (the kit arrives this Friday 11/19) so I cannot comment on how complete the kit is (I also opted out of some parts to supply my own), but your order looks pretty good.

[Sell1]

Just got my Type 65 home and inventory is complete. Some pretty critical pieces missing. Regardless I am putting a 17 Cayote in it with an IRS. Nothing real wild planned at this point.

[Sell1]

Missing pieces seems to very common. As I am not in a rush (Only been looking to do this for 25 years) I am trying hard not be frustrated. Think I read that 30 pieces missing is a lot. Try 51...
In at least two cases the entire box was missing. I completely understand the difficulty with suppliers in manufacturing currently but if things like upper and lower control arms are missing then maybe the kit should not have been shipped...released.
Hard to get started when so many items are not available. :(

[Blueblood]

The worst part is not getting any suspension components and shocks so the chassis will be sitting on jack stands for a long time. The supply chain and components manufacturing is a complete mess right now and doesn’t look like it will get better and the prices won’t be going down soon either. Not trying to rain on the parade but the clouds are already in the air. Good luck with your build but be prepared to wait. It has been three weeks and I have yet to get my call back on all the missing pieces of my parts list that were checked off but not supplied. It’s very exciting getting the kit off the truck just to find how much of it you don’t have.

[nick729]

Not looking good, but there is no way back now...

I was told that FFR would supply Walbro 255lph fuel pump, but this seemed suspicious to me as a fellow builder with the same engine was recommended a 450lph pump.. So after a bit of googling, i realized that the Walbro pump is only good for about 500bhp engine... If i hadn't double checked I would have ended up with a pump that is not suitable for my engine.. Wonder what other surprises I will discover once i get the kit, if such a simple part was overlooked.

Engine/trans - 8 months lead time
Coupe kit - 7 months

[edwardb]

Missing pieces seems to very common. As I am not in a rush (Only been looking to do this for 25 years) I am trying hard not be frustrated. Think I read that 30 pieces missing is a lot. Try 51...
In at least two cases the entire box was missing. I completely understand the difficulty with suppliers in manufacturing currently but if things like upper and lower control arms are missing then maybe the kit should not have been shipped...released.
Hard to get started when so many items are not available. :(


The worst part is not getting any suspension components and shocks so the chassis will be sitting on jack stands for a long time. The supply chain and components manufacturing is a complete mess right now and doesn’t look like it will get better and the prices won’t be going down soon either. Not trying to rain on the parade but the clouds are already in the air. Good luck with your build but be prepared to wait. It has been three weeks and I have yet to get my call back on all the missing pieces of my parts list that were checked off but not supplied. It’s very exciting getting the kit off the truck just to find how much of it you don’t have.

Are we getting a little sideways with words here? "Missing" I interpreted as (1) Listed as shipped on the box-by-box inventory sheets, and (2) Not on the POL (Parts On Order) list. In other words, Factory Five says they shipped the parts but during inventory you are unable to account for them. With multiple kits to date, I've always had a few in that category. On my recent truck build I had 6 missing parts. And another 5 parts that were incorrect (bolts were wrong length). All of which Factory Five promptly replaced. But never as much as either 30 or 51. Not even close. That's why I answered the way I did. POL parts on the other hand I agree are missing in the sense they didn't come with your original delivery. But technically are accounted for so IMO missing gives the wrong impression. And I would suggest most forum members here would interpret "missing" and "POL" in the same way I described.

I'm also confused a little about a "missing box." Stewart, if that's how yours was delivered, is very intentional to make sure you receive the exact number of boxes listed on the inventory sheets. I'm assuming they are just as intentional to confirm that's the number of boxes loaded into the trailer before leaving Factory Five. They make you sign off on the shipment at delivery confirming all the boxes were accounted for. Did you do that? I have had complete boxes on the POL (loose aluminum parts, carpet set, both on my recent truck build) but they were accounted for as POL items so weren't counted at time of delivery. That's how the process works.

[Sell1]

Thanks Edward,

Good point on the "missing" Certainly in my case missing meant I do not have them. You are correct that they are on back order and will be delivered eventually. In my case I picked the kit up at FFR. I ordered a base kit so you would have thought that all items would be present. I could have waited another month or two for the kit to be completed and let my body and frame set in FFR inventory.

All in all this has been an OK experience. After reading as much as I have online prior to my purchase this is about what I was expecting. Maybe I was just hoping for better.

I will continue along with my build keeping notes along the way and will document all. I will provide constructive feedback to FFR along the way. I am in no way Bashing FFR as I believe them to be doing the best they can with the circumstances we are all under.)

[nick729]

Missing or back order parts are a real issue in my case, as i have to get them shipped half way across the world which takes time, not to mention all the import procedures... I suspect my actual lead time will be a lot closer to 10+ months unfortunately.

[Blueblood]

Yea Factory Five is in the same situation any other company is in they can only provide what they have and can get if not there is a wait. Everyone that has gotten kits recently I’m sure has the typical POL list of items that are waiting to be shipped I have nothing special to claim there as it probably matches most other kits lists. But as stated I do have a small punch list of items that were checked as shipped but missing and as I also stated three weeks later I’m still waiting for the call back to report those items. I would assume that with the current situation the 45 day period to report missing items will be adjusted based on the call back waiting time. Does anyone have an answer to that question? Sorry if this thread got hijacked to the supply chain dilemma.

[edwardb]

Yea Factory Five is in the same situation any other company is in they can only provide what they have and can get if not there is a wait. Everyone that has gotten kits recently I’m sure has the typical POL list of items that are waiting to be shipped I have nothing special to claim there as it probably matches most other kits lists. But as stated I do have a small punch list of items that were checked as shipped but missing and as I also stated three weeks later I’m still waiting for the call back to report those items. I would assume that with the current situation the 45 day period to report missing items will be adjusted based on the call back waiting time. Does anyone have an answer to that question? Sorry if this thread got hijacked to the supply chain dilemma.

They have those stickers all over the boxes, e.g. report any shorted parts within so many days. Obviously, make an effort to do that. But historically they've been pretty generous with that deadline. Guys have reported parts they should have gotten well after that time and were taken care of.

[nick729]

Thank you all for the suggestions and help, I have just placed an order for the full kit and the engine/trans was ordered a few days back, so the waiting game begins.

[FracAG1980]

Thank you all for the suggestions and help, I have just placed an order for the full kit and the engine/trans was ordered a few days back, so the waiting game begins.

Just curious what FFR & Blueprint gave you for completion dates?

[nick729]

Blueprint - 8 months
FFR - 7 months (2022 June)

I am guessing it will be +1 or 2months on top due to backorder parts.


Shipping ~1month

[FracAG1980]

Blueprint - 8 months
FFR - 7 months (2022 June)

I am guessing it will be +1 or 2months on top due to backorder parts.


Shipping ~1month

Thanks, I ordered early June 2021 and had a completion date of 12/25/21 from FFR. I haven't ordered from Blueprint yet, but is sounds like I should.

Good luck with the wait and the build when you get it.

FracAG1980 (Steve)

[lewma]

Thank you all for the suggestions and help, I have just placed an order for the full kit and the engine/trans was ordered a few days back, so the waiting game begins.

Congrats!!

[nick729]

Off to a great start... placed the order a week ago, but i have yet to get a confirmation, as all the communication is done through emails and you get basically 1 email every 24hrs at best.. and the communication is poor at best...

Example: the very first email i got from the person in charge of finalising the order started the email off by saying "Although some of the options are a little off, that is not my primary concern". I kindly asked 3 times (we had a few emails back and forth with other questions/issues) to clarify what exactly is wrong and what i should change - 0 response to this question.

Also, i asked if the kit comes with fuel lines, adapters, regulator and pressure gauge? If no, can FFR supply them? Answer: "they are not provided with the kit, nor do we have them" so i followed up with a question what is in the efi in tank system option, then...? Turns out everything i need is in that particular option...

Am i just overreacting or is this just total non-sense?

All of the questions/issues would've been solved with 5-10minute phone call (for which i asked) and my order would've been complete a week ago. Instead, here we are sending emails back and forth, with no end in sight..

[Skuzzy]

All I can tell you is before I ordered my kit, I did a lot of research, including downloading and reading the build manual. What questions I had after that, I either found the answer on this forum, or asked and someone here would answer quickly. I only contacted FFR when I placed my order, when my kit would be ready, and when final payment was due.

There are things which came with the kit I will not use. There are things I will need to supply. After my inventory, I know all those answers. From what I can see in my inventory, if you do not deviate from the standard build, then everything you need is in the kit. Any deviation is up to the builder to figure out. That is where this forum comes in.

Just do not get caught up in the minutiae, before you ever get started, or it will be a long, long build process for you. The journey to your destination can be fun or anxiety riddled. It is up to you. I hope that helps.

[edwardb]

I can't explain the slow emails. It is a holiday week. So perhaps the person you're talking to is adding some days. Pretty common. We've all done it. But the bigger picture: Don't get lost in option details at this stage of the order process. The key thing you're trying to do right now is nail down what kit you're ordering and get on the production schedule. With the extended lead times on kits right now, I'm assuming you want to get in line. So order the best you can, get the basics right (model, base or complete, drivetrain if you know it, etc.) and get the order confirmed with your deposit paid. That gets you locked in. You can add/delete options and make changes to your order right up until a couple weeks before your production date. You can initiate the changes. Happens all the time. You'll have plenty of time to study and make changes. Additionally, they will ask you to review your order and make any final changes before payment is due right at the end. So plenty of chances to fine tune.

Regarding your specific points. All kits come with fuel lines. 5/16" feed and 1/4" return. Which may or may not be what you need for your setup. One of the most common things to tweak to be honest. As far as the EFI kit, those are widely available parts and very often what's supplied isn't exactly what you need or want. Obviously depends on your engine, EFI setup, personal choices, etc. My advice is always to focus on ordering from Factory Five what they produce either internally or from their suppliers. Optional stuff that's available elsewhere (Summit, JEGS, Amazon, Forte, etc.) you can easily choose to get outside your order, often cheaper, and exactly what you want/need. Can't explain why they're saying some of that isn't available. What you described can be on your porch in a day or two with a couple clicks from multiple sources. Don't let those kind of issues deter you. As Skuzzy said, don't get lost in these details now. This is a marathon.

[nick729]

I can't explain the slow emails. It is a holiday week. So perhaps the person you're talking to is adding some days. Pretty common. We've all done it. But the bigger picture: Don't get lost in option details at this stage of the order process. The key thing you're trying to do right now is nail down what kit you're ordering and get on the production schedule. With the extended lead times on kits right now, I'm assuming you want to get in line. So order the best you can, get the basics right (model, base or complete, drivetrain if you know it, etc.) and get the order confirmed with your deposit paid. That gets you locked in. You can add/delete options and make changes to your order right up until a couple weeks before your production date. You can initiate the changes. Happens all the time. You'll have plenty of time to study and make changes. Additionally, they will ask you to review your order and make any final changes before payment is due right at the end. So plenty of chances to fine tune.

Regarding your specific points. All kits come with fuel lines. 5/16" feed and 1/4" return. Which may or may not be what you need for your setup. One of the most common things to tweak to be honest. As far as the EFI kit, those are widely available parts and very often what's supplied isn't exactly what you need or want. Obviously depends on your engine, EFI setup, personal choices, etc. My advice is always to focus on ordering from Factory Five what they produce either internally or from their suppliers. Optional stuff that's available elsewhere (Summit, JEGS, Amazon, Forte, etc.) you can easily choose to get outside your order, often cheaper, and exactly what you want/need. Can't explain why they're saying some of that isn't available. What you described can be on your porch in a day or two with a couple clicks from multiple sources. Don't let those kind of issues deter you. As Skuzzy said, don't get lost in these details now. This is a marathon.


You are completely right, i want to get a spot in the long line, but even that is proving difficult at this moment...

It would not be too much of a fuss, if in Europe we had the same availability of parts as you do in the US. From what i have researched I would have to buy most of the parts from US which means very long shipping times and complicated/lengthy import procedures - which is what i am trying to minimize, by trying to have a complete car just from FFR and Blueprint. :)

[edwardb]

You are completely right, i want to get a spot in the long line, but even that is proving difficult at this moment...

It would not be too much of a fuss, if in Europe we had the same availability of parts as you do in the US. From what i have researched I would have to buy most of the parts from US which means very long shipping times and complicated/lengthy import procedures - which is what i am trying to minimize, by trying to have a complete car just from FFR and Blueprint. :)

Got it. You probably mentioned your location in other posts and I didn't remember. You have enough posts (I think) that you can put your location in your personal information and it will show in your posts. That would help. Much of my advice still applies though -- don't sweat the small stuff at the time of the initial order. There is plenty of time to get sorted.

[nick729]

I am located in Lithuania, Eastern Europe, so even getting parts from Germany/rest of Europe becomes a mission in some cases :)

Getting parts from US to my door means ~30-45days, hence the desire to source everything i need from FFR and Blueprint and have a running car. Improvements if needed will be made after that :)

[nick729]

Finally, my order has been approved for 2022 07 16, going to be a long wait :)

[Skuzzy]

Congratulations!

[samuelrjackson9]

sveikinu!

Sounds like you will have a great project to work on.

[nick729]

Right so my order is nearing the shipping date, although the engine/trans have been delayed 2 months further.. In the mean time, i flew over to FFR factory, since it was impossible to get everything sorted over emails... Overall experience not that great, but whatever, seems like a common theme throughout this entire experience...

So before i finalize my order, any last suggestions or issues you can see with my order?

Final kit includes:
Coupe Gen 3 Complete kit
Powdercoated chassis
Coupe GPS Metric gauges
LS engine mount components
LS Full length ball headers
Hydraulic clutch master cylinder kit
31 spline 2015 IRS 8.375" driveshaft
Body Cut-outs
Competition Aluminum Race Seats
Power steering components
Coupe 2015 IRS parts w/ complete kit
302/351W A/C kit
Black Carpet kit
14" leather steering wheel
Side window components
Floormats
Coupe sound insulation kit
Battery cut-off switch
RDSTR front Swaybar comps
2015 IRS Swaybar components
Halibrand Replica wheels 18x9/11"
15' IRS Koni double adjustable shock set
2018 IRS 3.55 center section & spindles
12.88" Front willwood brakes (Red)
Coupe Willwood Red IRS rear Brakes
Race side View Mirror set (818 mirrors)
HotRod/Truck headlight components
Holley 12-132 fuel pump
LS Cold air intake and filter

Blueprint engine and transmission:
LS3 427 Stroker Engine (625 HP / 565 FT LBS) with Tremec T56 Six Speed

Things i will need to buy:
-Fuel system - regulator, fuel lines, adapters, fuel filters
-Oil catch can
-Tires - 275/35 and 315/30, which is going to be a nightmare to source over here. Most likely will have to go with different brand for front and back due to them not being available in both sizes over here
-Backup camera (Autovox V5PRO, since T9 is not available in Europe..)

-Headlights: I will not be using the original headlights and not planning on using the plastic headlight covers either. I want full LED headlights with DRL and also integrated indicators. There are quite a few to choose from at very different price points. Currently considering these options:
-HotRod headlamps (currently on order with the kit) - they are apparently LED, but i noticed that they have a chrome surround/lip on it? I need them black, but afraid to paint them, due to poor results previously. Any thoughts?
-Jeep headlights - these are the ones i like the most, however, the low price is really putting me off.. Why are they so cheap? Anyone tried them? https://tinyurl.com/4m6f6mzp

So the big question is take the HotRod LED headlights and try to paint the chrome bits, or go with the Jeep ones?

Any tips, suggestions (or if i forgot something that i will need for the car to be complete) are very welcome :)

[lewma]

Blueprint engine and transmission:
LS3 427 Stroker Engine (625 HP / 565 FT LBS) with Tremec T56 Six Speed

You'll likely need to get a new transmission mount plate fabricated. I'm using the GM427LS and T56 Magnum transmission from Blueprint. The transmission mount plate that you get from FactoryFive does not work as the transmission is too long. We used a service called sendcutsend.com to make up a new plate.

Let me know closer to the time and I can dig up the details we used to make our plate

mark.

[nick729]

You'll likely need to get a new transmission mount plate fabricated. I'm using the GM427LS and T56 Magnum transmission from Blueprint. The transmission mount plate that you get from FactoryFive does not work as the transmission is too long. We used a service called sendcutsend.com to make up a new plate.

Let me know closer to the time and I can dig up the details we used to make our plate

mark.

Hey, Mark,

yeh, i remember this issue and tried to bring it up with FFR technicians including Dan, but all i got was "it should fit"... :D

I will keep this in mind, hopefully it will fit, but if it doesn't i know who to contact for the files :)