mclaren style hydraulic stabilizer bar?

[3000gttom]

anyone know about this, it doesnt look all that complicated and possibly adds to handling and comfort,
this could be something cool to add to a car thats already going to handle amazing

link has a little info on it

http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/09/2012-mclaren-mp4-12c-suspension-walkaround.html

[Twinspool]

Yes, let's borrow tech from the quarter-mill car and demand the kit price stay under $10k.

[Exidous]

It's still bad *** and probably not all that complicated. (programming wise)

[kach22i]

I find the connections between the different materials to be odd.

The blunt connections, and alternate route to traditional triangulation pause me to think.

These connections are built to fail in an accident, separating the CF tub from the engine for safety reasons.

I've never seen such clear construction photos on this car, or the Carrera GT which I think is similar.

Good post even if it has no potential for use in the FFR 818, it is educational (and not so odd after all).
5913

[bromikl]

Yeah... I had a thought about borrowing the active air brake / rear spoiler from the MP4-12C. It was shot down pretty fast. Like playing HALO. :D

[3000gttom]

well, its not all that complicated, and i think the origin of the tech were sae teams and not mclaren,

its been used in a couple other vehicles, i just used the mclaren because its the most well known example

not to mention it doesnt have to be a required component but it could be a nice option,

the air brake idea is a little tougher because the back suspension needs way beefed up and the car would be less planted up front and lose stability under hard breaking

[3000gttom]

any engineers out there know how this works? the concept is simple, if it could be done cheap, without all the adjustable settings like the mclaren, it would still be pretty cool

[vozproto]

I would imagine it is something to do with cross-over pressure adjustment.

So if you go around a turn, the outside wheel gets the lions share of the weight transfer. Thus wanting to create body-roll.

So what they have done is "cross-wired" the rebound and compression.

Think of it this way. If you have a shock... Compression is the system within the shock that wants to try to make the shock push up/get taller. Rebound is the system that controls the system that tries to press down/shorten the shock.

So if all of a sudden you enter a turn. The compression on the outside wheels increases and thus increases the rebound on the opposite side. Thus lowering the inside to reduce the body roll.

In theory this should be quite easy to implement.
The nasty bit is in the details of trying to calibrate and perfect it.

dig it?

[Twinspool]

any engineers out there know how this works? the concept is simple, if it could be done cheap, without all the adjustable settings like the mclaren, it would still be pretty cool

The concept isn't complicated, but on the surface, filling a tube with propellant, putting a cone on top and a nozzle on the bottom isn't complex either. Details my good man, details.
F5 has already contacted manufacturers about a shock package for this car, revalving units that already have an economy of scale behind them is one thing. Having bespoke equipment manufactured on a low-volume basis is a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Oppenheimer]

F5 has already contacted manufacturers about a shock package for this car, revalving units that already have an economy of scale behind them is one thing. Having bespoke equipment manufactured on a low-volume basis is a whole 'nother can of worms.

Exactly. Once this concept trickles down to where companies like Koni are making shocks with this hardware built in, then this would be feasible for the 818. Until then, it would be fantastically expensive to custom mod shocks (aftermarket or otherwise) to add this.

Then of course there is all the R&D required to get the software right. I hope once (if) this technology becomes an aftermarket option the software will be open-source tunable, opening up the option to roll-your-own much like tuners do now with ECU's (leapfrogging all the hurdles the tuner world has had to overcome with closed-source ECU tech to get to this point).

[Mechazawa]

The basic idea has been knocking around the industry for decades, Citroen DS anyone? It never works out well in the real world.

[GS guy]

KISS concept definitely doesn't apply to this innovation! What's next - a "check swaybar" light on the dash???

I do like the Z-bar out back though - Formula Vee technology making it to the big-time!

Simple adjustable sway bars should work just fine. Maybe something based on the readily available Speedway bars might be the hot ticket?

[Gollum]

I don't quite understand why this system NEEDS computer control. So the "strength" of the sway bar is determined by the level of connection between the two shocks. So if you have zero resistance you'd have mega roll resistance. But the more you prevent this interaction the weaker the roll resistance becomes. So why can't that be controlled through a manual hydraulic control valve? Just a simple valve and you've got your adjustability. To me it seems like that's one of the real benefits. It's a lot easier to adjust a valve than playing with bar diameter and end link play.

For anyone who's willing to rebuilt a strut, I don't see what's so insanely complicated to doing this. I can see why it hasn't been common, but if OEM's are doing it, then that means that the cost benefit is finally realistic. Keep in mind that's the only reason 99% of OEM's do anything, money. Some companies now think that if they implement this system they'll get enough benefit to sell enough cars that it'll pay off. OEM's are generally the LAST people to do anything, despite what mercedes would have you think...

I personally feel that this idea will be beyond the scope of most 818 builders/buyers. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in it. Let's just look at some of the basic benefits:

semi-unsprung weight reduction
easy on-car adjustments
wider range of adjustments
more compact packing capabilities

Some major drawbacks I see:

cost of materials alone are higher, let alone implementation
hydraulic failures might be more common than sway bar bushing failures
increased complexity for the KISS minded
doing it and doing it right could be vastly different ballparks

All in all, I find it an interesting topic to talk about.

[Oppenheimer]

I think some are missing the point of adjustability with this thing. Its not that you can adjust it once at setup time, its that it can be adjusted continually at drive time. As you drive into a corner, and proceed throught it, the roll resistance can be adjusted from almost none, to full on. All controlled by computer, based on input from (presumably) steering input, suspension compression, lateral g's, etc.

Is this a nanny control? Personally I don't feel like it is. I think it will be a while though before it trickles down to more pedestrian cars. Its like Gollum mentioned, "doing it and doing it right could be vastly different ballparks".

[Join]

I like the idea of a hydraulic stabilizer system! Fluid do not compress(noticeable), so this should work.
Never mind my paint skills..

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/Hydraulicstabilizer-1.png

If the outer wheel compress, it willl compress the inner wheel as well.

If one need adjustment, how about this:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/Hydraulicstabilizerwithadjustment.png

I do not remember the name of the pressure regulator thingy in english, but you will get the idea. More air pressure, less roll.

Use the subaru parts, just replace the sway-bar and dogbone with some cylinders. Should not be too much extra cost to make happen?

Edit: Different airpressure could possibly be used to adjust individual weight on all corners on the scales?
I'm no engineer or one with experience, just my thinking.

[Benji]

The system McLaren uses does have accumulators but you're missing the fact that the front AND rear shocks are also linked.

[SkiRideDrive]

The systems generally allow a low spring rate at the wheel with very high roll stiffness, which can help out traction, especially on rougher surfaces. Interesting technology, but completely unnecessary in an application like this.

[DrieStone]

I'm thinking this would be a great idea for my Jeep. Anyone who takes their Jeep off road has some kind of sway bar disconnects (most discard the rear sway bar). It's a manual process that requires removing some kind of pin for the end-links and tying the end-links up out of the way.

This system in the simplest form could allow in-cabin disconnects. The added advantage is that there are after-market, external reservoir shocks that could probably be modified fairly easily to support this kind of setup. Maybe not a great idea for the 818, but there are other potential markets for this idea.

[Join]

The system McLaren uses does have accumulators but you're missing the fact that the front AND rear shocks are also linked.

Hmm.. What if we connect top left with bottom right and vice versa? Then both right/left roll and front/back roll should be maintained?


The systems generally allow a low spring rate at the wheel with very high roll stiffness, which can help out traction, especially on rougher surfaces. Interesting technology, but completely unnecessary in an application like this.
A softer spring rate could help make it a smoother ride as well with a high roll stiffness? Many people I know hate to drive "sport" suspension. Can it help traction on the 818?

[SkiRideDrive]

Stiffly sprung cars being faster is somewhat of a misconception. You always want to be sprung as softly as possible, and damped appropriately, to maximize traction. Stiffer spring rates are generally used to increase the agility of the car and reduce roll, to maintain the tires in the meat of their optimal camber curves. Drivers, at least drivers trying to go quick, generally will always ask for stiffer suspension because the car feels like it react quicker, but in reality, lap times may decrease due to reduced overall grip. Advanced systems like this may allow for effectively soft wheel rates, while increasing roll resistance when necessary during cornering, or some really advanced systems, even account for pitch as well. I continue to disagree that this is an appropriate application however as this is intended to be an affordable platform. The technology is interesting however. When I was participating in Formula SAE in college, the western australia team was running an interesting variation of advanced suspension from Kinetic that would allow the sort of arrangement I discussed above. Very cool setup, and they were very quick, but they also had one of the largest budgets in the competition.

[Flamshackle]

IMHO this whole thread is a waste of cyber space. (except that we got to see the Mclaren)

Unless an aftermarket manufacturer grabs a hold of the concept and sinks massive money into it then this wont be a viable option for the 818...
It truly isn't an option to DIY either unless you are an experienced engineer with loads of access to very expensive tooling and manufacturing gear.
Back yard garage mechanics beware...

[Twinspool]

BMW had a split swaybar on one of their models with a motor that would pre-tension one side or the other based on feedback from the VSS and steering angle sensor.

When you have big, heavy cars it's necessary to throw buckets of money at technology to make you forget it's big and heavy. The 818 is the antithesis of that idea; light, simple, direct and low cost.
Feature Creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep)

[Gollum]

IMHO this whole thread is a waste of cyber space. (except that we got to see the Mclaren)

Unless an aftermarket manufacturer grabs a hold of the concept and sinks massive money into it then this wont be a viable option for the 818...
It truly isn't an option to DIY either unless you are an experienced engineer with loads of access to very expensive tooling and manufacturing gear.
Back yard garage mechanics beware...


BMW had a split swaybar on one of their models with a motor that would pre-tension one side or the other based on feedback from the VSS and steering angle sensor.

When you have big, heavy cars it's necessary to throw buckets of money at technology to make you forget it's big and heavy. The 818 is the antithesis of that idea; light, simple, direct and low cost.
Feature Creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep)

In practice I agree with both of you. But in principle I'd like to point out that many of today's "ancient old school technology" was once pretty trick stuff that was pioneered as much by hot rodders as it was OEM's. Never discount what a dedicated person can do in their garage, even if the budget is limited. Intelligence often outperforms money.

[Join]

I was looking at some hydraulic cylinders for cars. They are prized about $140 a pair, and nitrogen filled accumulators about $100 a piece. Those are the more complicated parts to manufacture, the rest could be done with time and playing with it..

Corrected chart: http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/HydraulicstabilizerwithadjustmentFrontandRear.png

I can see the problems without access to heavy machinery, it cannot be done for cheap without it.

It was nice to learn something new I did not know existed. :)

[D2W]

Bench racing is fun! This system could be built, would it work? Not as drawn in the diagrams. You could probably build something in your garage like this and make it work (maybe, depends on how much you know about hydraulics, and PLC controls if you want to get sofisticated) with a lot of testing. It would be way cheaper and easier to use adjustable swaybars.

[Join]

Feel free to do corrections and post it here then.. :)

[Oppenheimer]

It would be way cheaper and easier to use adjustable swaybars.

Why are you comparing this to adjustable swaybars? Adjustable swaybars purpose is to allow you to tune your roll control ahead of time. To match your unique combo of suspension, tires, etc, or to adjust to varying tracks and conditions. That is not the real purpose of this hydraulic swaybar technology. Its real purpose is to allow constantly varying roll control at drive time.

[Join]

I just got to make a model of this, to see if I'm thinking correct here.. :) Got some old cylinders from some old pneumatic LEGO toys waaaay back.. If It is possible for me to find them.
Edit: The physics should be the same for a non-adjustable system..

[Oppenheimer]

Well then you need to correct your diagram. The fronts connect to each other (my compression is your rebound), the rears connect to each other same way. The fronts don't connect to the rears (just as real front swaybar does not connect to rear bar).

If you are going to have a central control to vary the pressure by ECU dynamically while driving (the only reason to build this contraption), then the lines will also need to join together there, but the front and rear systems will remain isolated.

[Fast818]

Corvette C6 F55 Magnetic selective ride control (MSRC)

Which consists of magnetorheoligical fluid filled shocks which have electromagnets on the shock body, a controller and a ride control selector for sport and tour modes.

F55 Magnetic selective ride control (MSRC) which consists of magnetorheoligical fluid filled shocks which have electromagnets on the shock body, a controller and a ride control selector for sport and tour modes. The two modes vary the apparent viscosity of the fluid and change the bump and damping properties of the fluid in the shocks to regulate the ride. The F55 also interacts with the active handling system to apply shock variations at the corners that need more or less traction given input from the various sensors polled.

The MSRC suspension is a pretty cool piece of technology. The shocks are filled with a viscous fluid. Suspended within that fluid are iron particles. The outside of the shock body has magnets and sensors on it. The magnets and sensors are connected to a controller. The sensors monitor the motion and frequency of the shocks as the car moves. The controller compares the motion of shocks to a table of values and works to keep the motion within a specific range to provide the best stability and consistency. The sensors take samples from the shocks at 1,000 times per second.

When a value is recorded outside of the expected range the controller confirms the reading and works to adjust the shock to accommodate the difference. It does this by sending electrical impulses to the magnets. The magnetic field is adjusted with current flow so that it excites the metal particles in the fluid. This is called magnetorheological fluid simply meaning that it reacts to magnetism. The excitement of the metal particles causes them to change their alignment in the fluid. When this happens it changes the apparent viscosity of the fluid which causes the shock to firm up or soften depending upon where it is and how the load is measured.

Another tremendous value that the F55 package offers is that it is completely integrated with the active handling system. The MSRC is tied in to the AH controller and when the car needs to make adjustments based on the input of the speed, steering wheel position, ABS, wheel speed and yaw sensors, a signal can also be sent to the shock to firm up or soften an area to provide the car with the best possible solution for braking or turning by adding traction and balance or taking away traction and balance to allow the car to more quickly recover from a manoeuvre.
The iron actually never leaves the fluid. It simply changes it's orientation. The fluid is a high viscosity liquid and the iron particles are inside a sealed cannister in suspension in the fluid. The changes in electrical charge caused the magnetic field to align and vary the orientation of the iron particulate making the fluid more easier or more difficult to compress (depending upon orientaion) as they align.

Used in Ferrari 599, Audi R8 and others

[shinn497]

Would a solenoid controlled active suspension be another alternative for stability???? Just throwing that out there...

[vozproto]

Would a solenoid controlled active suspension be another alternative for stability???? Just throwing that out there...

No. When you get into an electrically controlled suspension the only thing that works and works well is the magneto-rheoplogical systems.

The problem with these are the sheer weight.
You are better off with a passive system like the Maclaren if you want to pursue this for the concerns of weight, development cost and controllability.

[Twinspool]

Would a solenoid controlled active suspension be another alternative for stability???? Just throwing that out there...

Hey, the 1980s called and want their dampers back! My 1986 Supra called it "TEMS" Toyota Electrically Modulated Suspension and the 87-88 Thunderbird Turbocoupes used a nearly identical system of actuators on the struts. You'll notice how many OEMs are using this on their models today. Even BMW, who throws every gimmicky tech-laden gadget in the world on their cars for no reason other than to stick a thumb in MBs and Lexus' eye doesn't use this.

Let the boys at Grassroots Motorsports get their greazy mitts on an early model and you'll see some good stuff.

[Join]

Well then you need to correct your diagram. The fronts connect to each other (my compression is your rebound), the rears connect to each other same way. The fronts don't connect to the rears (just as real front swaybar does not connect to rear bar).

Like my first diagram? (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?4104-mclaren-style-hydraulic-stabilizer-bar&p=40861&viewfull=1#post40861)

[Psay]

For anyone living in England or can get BBC2 at 20:00 today (in 35 minutes) there is an interesting program showing the build of the MP4-12C. The program is called 'How to Build a Super Car' and will probably be available on the web via BBC IPlayer to anyone who can't watch it directly (IPlayer is usually available a day or so later).

[Cooluser23]

Suspension would be cool.. Heck, I'd be happy with Mp4 inspired doors.

[Psay]

For anyone living in England or can get BBC2 at 20:00 today (in 35 minutes) there is an interesting program showing the build of the MP4-12C. The program is called 'How to Build a Super Car' and will probably be available on the web via BBC IPlayer to anyone who can't watch it directly (IPlayer is usually available a day or so later).

Here is the IPlayer link to the program. It is well worth a look at is about an hour in length.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b017t722/How_to_Build..._Series_2_A_Super_Car/

[Join]

Here is the IPlayer link to the program. It is well worth a look at is about an hour in length.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b017t722/How_to_Build..._Series_2_A_Super_Car/
Tried to check your link there, but it was like I expected:

"Currently BBC iPlayer TV programmes are available to play in the UK only, but all BBC iPlayer Radio programmes are available to you."

[Martin]

Try ukproxy.co.uk

Martin

[Join]

The system McLaren uses does have accumulators but you're missing the fact that the front AND rear shocks are also linked.


Bench racing is fun! This system could be built, would it work? Not as drawn in the diagrams. You could probably build something in your garage like this and make it work (maybe, depends on how much you know about hydraulics, and PLC controls if you want to get sofisticated) with a lot of testing. It would be way cheaper and easier to use adjustable swaybars.


Well then you need to correct your diagram. The fronts connect to each other (my compression is your rebound), the rears connect to each other same way. The fronts don't connect to the rears (just as real front swaybar does not connect to rear bar).

If you are going to have a central control to vary the pressure by ECU dynamically while driving (the only reason to build this contraption), then the lines will also need to join together there, but the front and rear systems will remain isolated.

Okay! It have been a while.

I did some LEGO testing: Offcourse the test is not 100% correct. The piston area is different on top/bottomside of piston. Here air is applied, and air compresses a lot. Think nondifferential cylinders, and hydraulics.

Video 1- Left/Right stabilizer.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/th_20120429_215445.jpg (http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/?action=view&current=20120429_215445.mp4)

Video 2- Left/Right/Front/Rear stabilizer.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/th_20120429_215959.jpg (http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/?action=view&current=20120429_215959.mp4)

This might work very well, but we need affordable nondifferential cylinders. I will have to make a drawing with how I am tinking to mount them. Accumulators will make the system work more like a air-filled system, but by adding a valve on the line to the accumulator it can be adjusted from completely equal movement on all wheels, to completely "soft".

What do you think?

-join-

[JRL]

What do I think - I think this thread is hilarious.................I'm in the midst of building a space shuttle on a $200 budget using plywood and wood putty.

[Join]

What do I think - I think this thread is hilarious.................I'm in the midst of building a space shuttle on a $200 budget using plywood and wood putty.
Hi! IF the cylinders needed for this system is reasonable enough priced, I can see myself fork out $1-2000 in parts to make it work. I can only speak for myself and my own fabrication skills.

A complete ready-to-go system is a completely different topic.

The theory behind it is really appealing.

The LEGO cylinders used above was only to prove my theory. :)

Best regards

[NonProfit]

What do I think - I think this thread is hilarious.................I'm in the midst of building a space shuttle on a $200 budget using plywood and wood putty.

And it would be a better space shuttle than most of us will ever have.

The point of forums like this are to inspire DIY innovation. I think it's great to consider what's possible.

[Join]

BTW, anyone with a link to a front and rear image of the frame and the mounting of the shocks inside a chassis? (chassis on top of frame type) Need to get a better view of space for mounting..

Thanks.

[crash]

I like the power steering. I think I have seen that setup somewhere before...

http://www.myraceshop.com/Power_Steering_Controller.html

:)

[crash]

BTW, anyone with a link to a front and rear image of the frame and the mounting of the shocks inside a chassis? (chassis on top of frame type) Need to get a better view of space for mounting..

Thanks.

I have dozens of them...if you mean something like this?

907890799080

Or do you mean something specific to a particular brand/the 818?

[Join]

I have dozens of them...if you mean something like this?

907890799080

Nice photos. Informative, but I did see something in one of the design-threads where the 818 chassis was drawn on top of the actual frame of the 818. Direct front and rear shots. And a picture from top down. This to see how much room there is. I will keep looking and try to find them again.

I am thinking something that can replace the factory setup easy, and switched back if needed.(not working satisfactory )

[MuddyRoverRob]

Join,
I think this is a really cool idea!

if some people want $20k engines in their "$15k" 818 there is no reason you shouldn't have active suspension bits in yours if that is what you want!

Please keep the ideas coming!

[Benji]

Actually Join is doing awesome here, the concept is actually retardedly simple I'm surprised it hasn't been done sooner, the implementation and the cost associated with that is another matter.

If the system proves itself on the MPC-12-F132-11MP or whatever it is, you can pretty much guarantee that you'll see this available on aftermarket systems.

[crash]

How about this "aftermarket system"?

9095

Unfortunately I couldn't get the rear shot to load due to restrictions on sizes on this site. This car uses computer controlled monoshocks front and rear along with torsion bars instead of coil springs. There are only two shock bodies on the entire car!

[CallawayTurner]

What I see with this system in its simplest form from is that while "sharing the pressure" in the shocks will encourage the shocks move together, effectively increasing the roll stiffness, what about for example when you hit a speed bump or other similar obstacle? When both wheels want to travel the same direction, this design basically eliminates any damping so that the vehicle will tend to bounce longer after hitting that bump. Without some additional sensors or controls, I certainly wouldn't go drilling holes in any shocks and connecting them.

Just my 2 cents.

[Xusia]

I think whether or not that would happen, and to what degree, would depend largely on how quickly such a system reacts to changes. A bump, pothole, etc., are very momentary. It'e likely you would get some reaction from the other side, but only to a partial degree. Again, depending on the specifics of the system.

One potential way to filter out bumps, at least in a straight line would be a proportional valve actuated by steering input. While pointed straight, no cross flow between the shocks is allowed. The more the wheel is turned in either direction, the more cross flow allowed between the shocks. Not perfect, but fairly easy to implement I would think.

Or, if we get really trick, don't physically connect the 2; have them independently controlled by electronics. The software could then be set to ignore sudden and/or sharp inputs; or even to average out inputs over a certain period of time. Or both. You could also factor in steering input in such a system as well. This could be used to effectively pre-load the suspension (proactive, rather than reactive).

Ohhh, the possibilities...

[Join]

This is not my idea, not my thread, so possible threadjack warning. :)
If a moderator feel it is better to seperate my input to a different thread, feel free to do so. I still think this is valid to the thread topic and there is absolutely no commercial interrest from my part here. This is pure hobby-related. :)


What I see with this system in its simplest form from is that while "sharing the pressure" in the shocks will encourage the shocks move together, effectively increasing the roll stiffness, what about for example when you hit a speed bump or other similar obstacle? When both wheels want to travel the same direction, this design basically eliminates any damping so that the vehicle will tend to bounce longer after hitting that bump. Without some additional sensors or controls, I certainly wouldn't go drilling holes in any shocks and connecting them.

The car still will have springs and shocks.

Just my 2 cents.

If you look at the video's, the cylinders will not sit with any pressure on level ground. The springs and shocks keep the veichle at the correct ride hight. This is roll-bar-replacement. When the suspension move up and down the fluid will move from bottom of one cylinder to the top of the other and vice versa. The faster the movement the bigger flow. So we would need to keep piston area at a size so that the cylinder are not overloaded by pressure, but not so big that the volume flow through the lines will be very large.
Small piston area and a little beefy hydraulic lines will help friction in the system. By connecting all 4 cylinders in a loop like in my video, all wheels will move equal to the others, i.e the car cannot roll when cornering, cannot drop the rear when accelerating and the nose cannot drop when braking. Not considering the wheels compressing.


I think whether or not that would happen, and to what degree, would depend largely on how quickly such a system reacts to changes. A bump, pothole, etc., are very momentary. It'e likely you would get some reaction from the other side, but only to a partial degree. Again, depending on the specifics of the system.

One potential way to filter out bumps, at least in a straight line would be a proportional valve actuated by steering input. While pointed straight, no cross flow between the shocks is allowed. The more the wheel is turned in either direction, the more cross flow allowed between the shocks. Not perfect, but fairly easy to implement I would think.

Or, if we get really trick, don't physically connect the 2; have them independently controlled by electronics. The software could then be set to ignore sudden and/or sharp inputs; or even to average out inputs over a certain period of time. Or both. You could also factor in steering input in such a system as well. This could be used to effectively pre-load the suspension (proactive, rather than reactive).

Ohhh, the possibilities...
I do not agree here. The system will automaticly kill any roll movement, any direction. If one wheel get compressed it will load all springs equal and all corners of the car will drop height equal amount. No need for computer control, as far as I can tell.

The issue I can think of, is that when the track/road change height. if you lift one front tire, it cannot lift that one alone, the pressure to the ground will change. Lift left front corner, and you will get ground load at only left front and right rear wheel.
To solve that issue I think that connecting accumulators like in post #24. That will make the fluid able to change colume between cylinders and make one wheel able to move independently.
To adjust how easy one wheel can move independently we can adjust accumulator pressure or install a valve on every accumulator-line to control flow into the accumulator. With the valves fully closed it will be no roll of the car, open will make it move freely like with no stabilizator bar = fully adjustable car roll/stabilizator! And we can use a lot softer springs and dampers(cheaper?)because the load on one wheel are shared on all 4 corners?

I can also see that when you weigh the corners of the car, corner weight should be possible to adjust by adjusting accumulator pressure?(Gas-pressure)

I still think this is worth considering. Should be affordable-ish, and adjustability you cannot get in any other systems? The system do require equal piston areas, so we need cylinders that look like this:

9469

The cylinder body need to attatch to the frame, one of the piston rods go to the wheel suspension, the other one will move freely, possibly just put a cap over it.

Remember this is all from my head, so please discuss if you feel something is not right here..

John

[Benji]

How about this "aftermarket system"?

9095

Unfortunately I couldn't get the rear shot to load due to restrictions on sizes on this site. This car uses computer controlled monoshocks front and rear along with torsion bars instead of coil springs. There are only two shock bodies on the entire car!

This and other expensive suspension tech:

http://www.hypercoils.com/bellows-springs.html

I wonder how effective these are.

[Join]

This and other expensive suspension tech:

http://www.hypercoils.com/bellows-springs.html

I wonder how effective these are.

This looks like spring replacement, not stabilizers? :)

[3000gttom]

[QUOTE=Join;58236]This is not my idea, not my thread, so possible threadjack warning. :)
If a moderator feel it is better to seperate my input to a different thread, feel free to do so. I still think this is valid to the thread topic and there is absolutely no commercial interrest from my part here. This is pure hobby-related. :)

actually when i made this thread i was hoping someone like you would take over...when i transfer to Penn State next year i am going to try to get on their sae team and bring this up with them

but im so glad you have been able to explain this...this system could end up being quite affordable and combined with the light weight of the 818, these cars could be even more impressive on the track

it is an essentially anti-roll bar with perfect geometry...IE. the force vectors line up (but there is loss in the hydraulic reaction time though)

[Join]

actually when i made this thread i was hoping someone like you would take over...when i transfer to Penn State next year i am going to try to get on their sae team and bring this up with them

but im so glad you have been able to explain this...this system could end up being quite affordable and combined with the light weight of the 818, these cars could be even more impressive on the track

My goal is to purchase a 818 for track use. And this look promising in my head for that use. I got a 2year perspective on a purchase, and I guess it will be that long for a track model to arrive. Why not use the time doing research and thinking?


it is an essentially anti-roll bar with perfect geometry...IE. the force vectors line up (but there is loss in the hydraulic reaction time though)
That is why I want small piston area and a little thick lines to reduce system friction, or reaction time..

Best regards

Edit: I have contacted a cylinder manufactorer and asked for a rough price estimate, and/ if they can make cylinders like that for me.. If anyone know any shop names, please PM it to me. I might want to check several places.. :)

[Benji]

This looks like spring replacement, not stabilizers? :)

Indeed, just interesting suspension tech I thought I'd throw in with what is being discussed here.

[Mike Downs]

This design is patented by Tenneco, but I don't know what the rules would be for you to make a 'one-off' for yourself, but you might get in trouble if you try and sell it. Besides McClaren this is system is also in large SUVs from Lexus and Audi (I believe). They both license the technology from Tenneco.

[Join]

Good evening guys.

I had to correct my drawing(sorry for my skill level) to show the use of the cylinders.

The system will be used to keep the car level to the ground and prevent roll, not height adjustment. There will be normal springs and shocks to keep height and rebound. Without springs it will drop to the floor with this setup. After filling of the system it will be completely passive, no external pump etc.

The cylinder piston area is to be as small as possible to prevent massive fluid flow through the lines, and a little thick lines to help flow. From the drawing you will see how when all the cylinders go in, fluid will move from top of one cylinder to the bottom of another. When they move out it will move in opposite direction. The car will always move up and down because of external forces, and this movement need to be able to move almost instant.

About the accumulators it might be possible to use them, when filling the system up I will need equal pressure in all hydraulic lines to keep equal distance to the ground on all 4 corners of the car. A block that can feed all 4lines at once will be perfect to equal pressure and then remove it after filling the system. My head tell me that the hydraulic lines need to be filled with 350psi to match the pressure of the accumulators, to keep them in neutral position?

Without accumulators one wheel cannot move independent of the others. That is not good to keep all wheels to the ground at one time. The valves on every accumulator is there to adjust flow into the accumulator and how much resistance there will be to move one cylinder independently.

I might be able to make cylinders myself(cnc-operator), but it is a lot of work, so I would prefer that someone more experienced in cylinders do it. And they probably got more specific tools to play with.

I am only looking for cylinders and the accumulators is stock parts, the rest is possible to fix here with me.

Hope this makes any sense to you at all. The problem is to get non-differential cylinders that fit. 8" travel should be adequate.

Here is the updated drawing:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/Correctedsetup.png

[JRL]

Are you trying to limit roll or replace the shocks? Either way your sketch will need some additional items. As it stands now it is a closed loop that will send fluid (pressure) from one unit to another to another etc.

I suspect the reason the systems is limited to high dollar vehicles is because of the enormous cost to coordinate the actions / reactions via computers and multiple sensors. If it was low cost and worked it would be used by all of the manufacturers.

[Smitty911]

8" of Travel????? Not only are the Actuators $$$$$$$$$, where the heck you planning on mounting them?

I would change the pick up points go for a 4" or even 2" of travel, you can buy Actuators from Bimba ( http://www.bimba.com/Products-and-Cad/Actuators/Inch/#NFPA ) They also have all the other parts you'll need.

The other issue is your valves to control the flow will effect the flow in both directions, so you could end up with a system that gets "locked".

Just my thoughts, I work for a Compliance Test House and I'll talk to the Mechanical Manager and see what he can suggest.

Smitty

[JRL]

Find a wrecked one of these :)

http://www.citroenet.org.uk/miscellaneous/hydraulics/hydraulics-2.html

[Join]

Are you trying to limit roll or replace the shocks? Either way your sketch will need some additional items. As it stands now it is a closed loop that will send fluid (pressure) from one unit to another to another etc.

Hi!
The idea is to make a hydraulic anti-roll bar, but also stop the car from front/rear "roll" as from braking/throttle forces as well. It will not replace springs or shocks. The whole system is revolved around canceling forces to prevent any type of roll.


I suspect the reason the systems is limited to high dollar vehicles is because of the enormous cost to coordinate the actions / reactions via computers and multiple sensors. If it was low cost and worked it would be used by all of the manufacturers.

No coordination needed. It is completely passive. No electronics needed. If you look away from the accumuators, all cylinders will have equal movement. An example. If you lift one wheel on the car, all other wheels will move up the same amount and the car will stay level. Another thing is that when one wheel is loaded by some force(bump), all springs and shocks will share the load. So the spring rate can be lower and that can enchance grip while you get a more comfortable ride.

The biggest cost here is time. And cylinders.


Find a wrecked one of these :)

http://www.citroenet.org.uk/miscellaneous/hydraulics/hydraulics-2.html

Ehmm, these do roll quite a bit? ;)


8" of Travel????? Not only are the Actuators $$$$$$$$$, where the heck you planning on mounting them?

The 8" travel is a little out of the air. I just want to have the cylinders not limit the suspension travel, to prevent exessive forces on them maxing out in one direction or another. I don't got the chassis for the 818 here, so this is more than a wild quess.

Also, actuators are dependant of the volume going in-and-out, and I want to keep piston area and the volume flow as small as possible.


I would change the pick up points go for a 4" or even 2" of travel, you can buy Actuators from Bimba ( http://www.bimba.com/Products-and-Cad/Actuators/Inch/#NFPA ) They also have all the other parts you'll need.

First, did I write actuators? That is something completely different! If so, that was not my intention. Accumulators is what we need here. The pick-up point is pretty much set I guess, on the factory position from subaru's sway bar?


The other issue is your valves to control the flow will effect the flow in both directions, so you could end up with a system that gets "locked".

Will it? And the valves are not controlling the flow, it is only controlling the fluid's possibility to expand into or out of the accumulators, to make it possible for one wheel to move a little independant to the others. That way it is possible to adjust how much roll you want? All valves closed and the car will not roll, period. It will also not be able to adjust to the track if it is anything else than flat.


Just my thoughts, I work for a Compliance Test House and I'll talk to the Mechanical Manager and see what he can suggest.

Smitty

That would be nice, but make sure he is thinking nondifferential cylinders. Both top and bottom port of the cylinders need equal piston area for it to work.

-John-

[Smitty911]

The 8" travel is a little out of the air. I just want to have the cylinders not limit the suspension travel, to prevent exessive forces on them maxing out in one direction or another. I don't got the chassis for the 818 here, so this is more than a wild quess.

Also, actuators are dependant of the volume going in-and-out, and I want to keep piston area and the volume flow as small as possible.



First, did I write actuators? That is something completely different! If so, that was not my intention. Accumulators is what we need here. The pick-up point is pretty much set I guess, on the factory position from subaru's sway bar?



Will it? And the valves are not controlling the flow, it is only controlling the fluid's possibility to expand into or out of the accumulators, to make it possible for one wheel to move a little independant to the others. That way it is possible to adjust how much roll you want? All valves closed and the car will not roll, period. It will also not be able to adjust to the track if it is anything else than flat.



That would be nice, but make sure he is thinking nondifferential cylinders. Both top and bottom port of the cylinders need equal piston area for it to work.

-John-

John,

Bimba pretty much makes everything you'll need to pull this together. I work with actuator (air cyclinders) so I used what I call them, opps.

I'll print your drawing and talk with him in the morning.

Smitty

[Join]

John,

Bimba pretty much makes everything you'll need to pull this together. I work with actuator (air cyclinders) so I used what I call them, opps.

I'll print your drawing and talk with him in the morning.

Smitty
Nice! I will look into them further. If there already excist suitable off the shelf cylinders it will probably be cheaper than some custom pieces, and easier fixed if there is a failure.

Thanks,

EDIT: Just had a look, and this might be an option right there: Double Acting Double End Rod (http://bimba.technicon.com/CC_host/pages/navigation/browse/index.cfm?cc_nvl=((catalogCode,bimba),(lineCode,OL ),(nodeCode,OL-DXDE))) With the correct options, if it is made for hydraulics. It is also made in stainless steel with mirror finish.

Here is how I thought attatching the cylinders to the frame of the 818:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/Cylinderinstall.png

It will be a challenge to install, like everything else.

:)

-John-

[Mike Downs]

I think that you have the lines to the cylinders messed up. Here is how it should be.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-anti-anti-roll-bar-tennecos-kinetic-suspension-explained-feature

I think that the McClaren has springs, but the shock and sway bar functions come from the hydraulics. A sudden bump or shock to a wheel or wheels is handled by the accumulators because they can absorb the the fluids quicker than changing the wheel loads at the other 3 corners. To stiffen the handling, (street mode, race mode), one would increase the pressure in the accumulators. I love this suspension setup and it really seems like the future IMHO. When Top Gear BBC drove the car around their track, they said the suspension felt as compliant and comfortable as a Bentley, but still handled better than the Ferrari 458i.

I think that you can put a flow control valve (manual) at one end of each shock and this can also be used to 'tune' the system (i.e. show up at the track and turn each flow control knob 3/4 turn toward the 'closed'). I also believe that no electronics would be required with this setup.

[carbon fiber]

what about a simple mechanical version via koenisegg. they have a horizontal bar with a built in coilover mounted between the two pivot points at the top of the vertical coilovers.9632

[Join]

I think that you have the lines to the cylinders messed up. Here is how it should be.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-anti-anti-roll-bar-tennecos-kinetic-suspension-explained-feature

Why will it not work? I am not looking to copy, just figure out something that can work!

BTW, cylinders might be around $150+ a piece when ordering 4pcs.

Smitty, thanks for the tip! :)

[Join]

I need some help figuring out the size of cylinders. Maximum load every cylinder can take is easily calculated from max psi rating and piston area that will output a certain force.

The cylinders I am currently looking at got a max psi rating of 250psi before failure.

Anyone good with physics? What will the highest shock load on one corner be?

-john-

[StatGSR]

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/Join81/Factory%20Five%20Forum/Correctedsetup.png

this drawing doesn't work...

if you loaded the right suspension (hard left hand turn) you would end up extending the front left suspension and actually pick up the rear left wheel, which is not what i would call roll control. In a hard right turn you would pick up the front right wheel, and extend the rear right...also unlike normal sway bars, this type of system would be affected by nose dive from braking, nose dive would make this setup want to do all sorts of weird things..

[Join]

this drawing doesn't work...

if you loaded the right suspension (hard left hand turn) you would end up extending the front left suspension and actually pick up the rear left wheel, which is not what i would call roll control. In a hard right turn you would pick up the front right wheel, and extend the rear right...also unlike normal sway bars, this type of system would be affected by nose dive from braking, nose dive would make this setup want to do all sorts of weird things..

Why? Follow the lines in and out of every cylinder. You will see that if you push in one cylinder the other three will move in the same direction equal amount. Look at the video with all 4 pneumatic lego cylinders connected.

If you do not agree, tell me why it will not work. Mabye I am not seeing something in the picture here.

:)

[StatGSR]

maybe i was thinking it through wrong.

[FinishlineWRX]

I need some help figuring out the size of cylinders. Maximum load every cylinder can take is easily calculated from max psi rating and piston area that will output a certain force.

The cylinders I am currently looking at got a max psi rating of 250psi before failure.

Anyone good with physics? What will the highest shock load on one corner be?

-john-

The pressure spike, is what I think you would have to be concerned with. For instance accidentally hitting a pot hole or sudden braking / turning.

The spike is dependent on the density of the fluid your running and the change in fluid velocity. Could potentially be rather high...more than the 250psi limit of your cylinders.



Another thought on the drawing above. I keep thinking that without a better flow control, it would allow for unstable sudden movements. Not sure with the accumulators though.
IE. Hard braking as nose dives the rear wheels would become lighter than normal. Same with the inside tires in a turn.

[Oppenheimer]

Maybe some sort of pressure relief valve for sudden pressure spikes? (such as would occur when hitting pothole) Let the springs/shocks deal with that, take this roll control out of that picture.

[Xusia]

Why? Follow the lines in and out of every cylinder. You will see that if you push in one cylinder the other three will move in the same direction equal amount. Look at the video with all 4 pneumatic lego cylinders connected.

If you do not agree, tell me why it will not work. Mabye I am not seeing something in the picture here.

:)

It's not just about all 4 corners moving in unison. If you read the text from the link provided by Mike Downs:


http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-anti-anti-roll-bar-tennecos-kinetic-suspension-explained-feature

it offers a good explanation. Your diagram is missing some connections, and from what I understand from reading the article, those are key to proper functioning.

[Join]

It's not just about all 4 corners moving in unison. If you read the text from the link provided by Mike Downs:



it offers a good explanation. Your diagram is missing some connections, and from what I understand from reading the article, those are key to proper functioning.

I can see that and what is different. The way it is set up in my drawing it will need 4 accumulators to work, in the link only two.

It is not to be difficult or anything, but I do not think that the setup in the link will provide the same degree of resistance against breaking and throttle forces. Or when turning while breaking/ accelerating.

I got one thing out of the article thou. By adding oil and then filling the accumulators more, they will get higher pressure inside and they will be harder to compress and get a harder setup for track use etc.

But one thing is clear. The cylinders needs a higher psi rating than 250psi.

Thanks. :)

[Xusia]

Tenneco's Kinetic Suspension system (the one in the link) would do effectively nothing to combat squat or dive - but it wasn't designed to. It was designed to combat body roll. Remember, there are still shocks and springs on the car that can be tuned in a traditional manner - independently from the Tenneco's Kinetic Suspension system.

Therefore, increasing the pressure in the Tenneco's Kinetic Suspension - as is stated directly in the article - would only increase the roll stiffness. The shocks and springs would be virtually unaffected because of the way the Tenneco's Kinetic Suspension handles single wheel travel. In effect, increasing the pressure in the accumulators would have no more effect - probably less effect - than increasing the diameter of a traditional roll bar.

I think the result would be dramatically different in your system - which I'm not knocking!! In fact, I hope you do it because I'd like to know how the difference affects the overall handling. :)

[bromikl]

Question: this system replaces the traditional roll bar. Is this to save weight? Or does a hydraulic system have performance advantages over a roll bar?

[FinishlineWRX]

Question: this system replaces the traditional roll bar. Is this to save weight? Or does a hydraulic system have performance advantages over a roll bar?

I would highly doubt there would be any weight savings, would most likely be heavier due to all the components. But I could see the performance being pretty good if one could get it all worked out. Think, a drastically changeable roll rate and perhaps even from in car on demand....Hope I see more from Join's ideas personally.

But I'm just the newb..

[Xusia]

In static form, it should be an improvement over a traditional anti-sway bar. Where it really get awesome is when coupled with an electronic control system. The adjustability - as well as the potential for pre-action - far exceeds what any anti-sway bar is capable of.

[BrandonDrums]

I think it would actually be quite cheap to build a basic setup like this with the right tools. If someone were to buy some cheap ac delco oil filled shocks, had an air compressor and a tap and die set it could be done. However, as a few pointed out, the pressure spikes would probably cause the system to fail quite quick unless there were flow restriction valves of some sort that would seal if the flow exceeded a certain threshold.

This is where I don't know of the device nor the setting to achieve this but I can think of how one might work using a simple ball and spring valve in reverse.

As to the benefits, there would be lots of handling and ride quality improvements. Handling improvements because there would be more instant and dynamic anti-roll and anti -dive abilities. More handling increases due to having a more optimal and consistent spring-rate for each wheel. With this, only the strut is fighting roll vs. a traditional anti-roll bar which is essentially a torsen bar spring which makes bump and roll scenarios crazy as the different springs work together and against eachother to net all sorts of different effective spring rates through a roll.

Also, you get a much better ride, because you can run lower spring rates while still getting the same flat cornering from a stiffer setup.

Newer, magnetic systems attempt to do exactly what this system does but without all the heavy lines and with the added benefit of a computer. However, I think the hydraulic system can react quicker to more bump scenarios as it's hard to program a computer controlled unit to react to all varying degrees and combinations of bump and roll inputs. Juice flowing just happens so much quicker and seems really f'n cool.

Wish I had time and money to try this out! I love having cheap yet clever things outperform the rich guy's gadgets. I guess that's why I'm an FFR fan!

[Join]

Good evening folks.. :)

Trying to do some math here and searching the web for possible candidates.

I found a possible match: 20mm rod/40mm bore and 200mm travel/14mPa max pressure rating.

That means 2030psi, and at that pressure one cylinder can hold 2966lb or 1345kg.

That means 9,42mm2 area at a 200mm stroke it will push 0,188litres? So, 1,82dl(6,15fl.oz?) of fluid will travel from one side to the other. Not so much at all. With a 10mm ID hose that means 60cm travel in one movement?

Anyone with skills to tell how much friction that will be in 0,5 second?(Time unit for instant) Head conversion tell me that 60cm in 0,5second is 1,2m/s.

Internet calculator result:

Inputs
Pressure at A (absolute): 14mPa
Average fluid velocity in pipe, V: 1,2m/s
Pipe diameter, D: 1,0cm
Pipe relative roughness, e/D: 0
Pipe length from A to B, L: 2m
Elevation gain from A to B, Dz:
Fluid density, r: 869kg/m3
Fluid viscosity (dynamic), m: 16cP
Answers
Reynolds Number, R: 652
Friction Factor, f: 0.0982
Pressure at B: 0.248 psi
Pressure Drop: 1.78 psi
Volume Flowrate: 0.0942 l/s
Mass Flowrate: 0.0819 kg/s

How does that look for a result? In my eyes it doesn't look too bad, but I am not enough into this matter to tell wether is it a reasoneable result or not. Or If there is any mistakes throughout my calculations.

Does it look like a reasoneable size cylinder to work with 40mm dia. and 200mm travel? Remember that when the 818 rest on the wheels the cylinder will not be on one end of it's travel.(Not according to my "plan".)

:)
EDIT:

If the flow move in 0.1sec it should equal 6m/s flow in the lines. Internet calculator result will then be:

Answers
Reynolds Number, R: 3260
Friction Factor, f: 0.0424
Pressure at B: 2010 psi
Pressure Drop: 19.3 psi
Volume Flowrate: 0.471 l/s
Mass Flowrate: 0.410 kg/s

[FinishlineWRX]

Remember the cylinder has to be double action or something to keep the piston area equal on both sides of the motion.

The numbers seem like they work from just looking at them.

This still didn't calculate the pressure spike. unless thats what the pressure B is referring to..

Using your 6m/s flow rate = 19.6 ft/s = V = change in velocity
Density = 869kg/m3 = 54lb/ft3 = rho
C = speed of sound in fluids = √k/rho = 4977ft/s
gc = 32.2
Pressure Spike = ∆P = rhoC∆V/gc

∆P = (54lb/ft3 * 4977ft/s * 19.6ft/s)/32.2
∆P = 163591 lb/ft2 /144in2
∆P = 1136psi spike + Static pressure This is just some rough numbers

[Join]

But. .. Thinking it a little over the effective piston area should be doubled because fluid don't compress or stretch, so there will be equal force pulling and pushing at the same time? That should effectively double force capacity at given pressure? That means that to maintain the needed force the pressure can be reduced to 1015psi for the same result, and there will be a lot of headroom for spikes?

[NonProfit]

However, as a few pointed out, the pressure spikes would probably cause the system to fail quite quick unless there were flow restriction valves of some sort that would seal if the flow exceeded a certain threshold.
OK, I have virtually no expertise in this area, so take this with a grain of salt, but what about a 5th cylinder which would act as a reservoir to prevent blowout? This would require more pressure to compress than the other four. Under normal driving conditions it would remain fully extended. In the event of a spike in pressure the cylinder would compress, reduce system pressure, and prevent failure.

[Benji]

Question: this system replaces the traditional roll bar. Is this to save weight? Or does a hydraulic system have performance advantages over a roll bar?

Roll bars are a fixed stiffness, to adjust them you need to replace them in most instances. This system could almost be considered 'infinitely variable' and 'automatically adjusting'.

That's simplifying a bit too much perhaps but that is the basic principle of it. As mentioned above, top gear found that it rides like a Bentley and handles like a 458.

Interesting that kinetic systems were band from WRC and Dakar in 2006, usually this means it's very very good :D

[FinishlineWRX]

But. .. Thinking it a little over the effective piston area should be doubled because fluid don't compress or stretch, so there will be equal force pulling and pushing at the same time? That should effectively double force capacity at given pressure? That means that to maintain the needed force the pressure can be reduced to 1015psi for the same result, and there will be a lot of headroom for spikes?

Yeah, your probably right there. Its to late to think right now. I'm not used to driving a cylinder with another cylinder. With a pump the travel speeds will be different depending on the piston area.
I know for all intensive purposes fluids are incompressible, but not sure about the stretching part. Once the pressure reduces below the saturated vapor pressure the fluid will form bubbles...cavitation.

[Join]

OK, I have virtually no expertise in this area, so take this with a grain of salt, but what about a 5th cylinder which would act as a reservoir to prevent blowout? This would require more pressure to compress than the other four. Under normal driving conditions it would remain fully extended. In the event of a spike in pressure the cylinder would compress, reduce system pressure, and prevent failure.
There are 4 seperate volumes that needs to be seperated. So one 5th cylinder will not do the trick.
Remember that the accumulators will work as a shock absorber as well. I am trying to calculate worst case spike load to figure out what psi rating the system need.

:)

[bromikl]

Banned = very very good: HAhhaahahah!!

Join, any estimate on the cost for the components?
In theory, hydraulic stabilization works. Earlier versions performed well. Current versions, spectacularly well.
Obviously we can't rip apart a McLaren for its suspension. At some point, someone needs to build a prototype and test it. Does anyone want to offer a test bed?

[Join]

Join, any estimate on the cost for the components?
In theory, hydraulic stabilization works. Earlier versions performed well. Current versions, spectacularly well.
Obviously we can't rip apart a McLaren for its suspension. At some point, someone needs to build a prototype and test it. Does anyone want to offer a test bed?

Hi!

No idea on the 14mpa candidate yet, but the 250psi cylinders was just shy of $150 a piece ordering 4pcs.

I wanted to know what to ask for before getting a quote on the next one.

This is something I'd love to try out, but it will be 2years +. I tend to stick to my plans.. :) Hope it is not too far off for you! ;)

Ideally the plan is so far on its road to completion that I can custom order welded plates/bars for me to attatch mounts to the frame direct from F5. Hopefully that can rule any welding out on my part.

If anyone got the scaled drawing on the frame it is easier to make a plan to work with.

Anyone? :)

[FinishlineWRX]

Hi!

No idea on the 14mpa candidate yet, but the 250psi cylinders was just shy of $150 a piece ordering 4pcs.

I wanted to know what to ask for before getting a quote on the next one.

This is something I'd love to try out, but it will be 2years +. I tend to stick to my plans.. :) Hope it is not too far off for you! ;)

Ideally the plan is so far on its road to completion that I can custom order welded plates/bars for me to attatch mounts to the frame direct from F5. Hopefully that can rule any welding out on my part.

If anyone got the scaled drawing on the frame it is easier to make a plan to work with.

Anyone? :)


That sounds about right for the my build schedule. Hope to get the kit mid 2013 depending on release. Take my time building. And seeing what I can modify....

Finding the components and about how much weight its going to add is going to be important to me.

[bromikl]

We could use any vehicle as a test bed. A mid 90's Impreza would work fine. A tube-frame car would be even better.