Remember that toy, Sit and Spin?

[mburger]

My post mortem of the event.
No reason for the order:

1. No, I was not racing the Mini, for too many reasons to list. I don't race anyone. Period.
2. I've driven the car much harder "off the line" than this.
3. It had recently rained, though the roads were mainly dry, but definitely damp.
4. Cooper Cobra's and damp/wet roads don't mix well. Never did, and I should have been more aware of that.
5. I have driven the car too softly for a Cobra to be driven since I've owned, so, I've only been pointed in one direction in it, that would be forward.
6. First and only chance to properly correct this to avoid the outcome was lost by:
a, Too much wheel input (Overcorrecting) on the first correction and,
b, Being complacent and not focused because 100 times the car hooks up fine so why would I expect anything different this time? Barely 1/4 input on the throttle.
7. Zero training on handling the car. Driving it to it's limits to see where those, and my limits are etc. and then learning/practicing to be better.

There's more, but the bottom line is, while the list above reads like a list of excuses, it's really a list of my shortcomings.
It's really impossible to express just how fortunate I was.
First and foremost, no one was hurt. Secondly, my car was not damaged in any way and the Mini wasn't touched. They kept going never to be seen again.
There are soooo many ways this could easily have gone very bad.

* I had a couple of choice words for myself so to keep it SFW, I cut the audio for 4 - 5 seconds.
* My car was chock full of all kinds of goodies (all the rattles) heading to Henry's house where the car remains as I continue making never ending changes to it.
* No, I didn't need a change in shorts. I was more angry with myself than anything, hence the audio edit.
* Lastly, go easy on me folks. My skin is feeling thin lately. :D

https://youtu.be/f7NXIUlZ6xA

[JohnK]

Yeah, that's not a fun feeling.

Back in '92 I had just graduated from college and bought my first new car - a '92 Mustang LX 5.0. Holy cow! 220HP seemed like it was a hypercar after my little Nissan Sentra. I was driving in downtown San Jose on a damp day, and went to hang a u-turn on a major street where the lightrail train runs in the median between the two directions of traffic. Rear wheels hit the wet metal tracks as I was making the u-turn and around I went. Nothing like facing oncoming traffic with their light turning green. Lots of choice words in that moment. :eek: It happens. Glad you're safe and the car is undamaged.

[Blue Viking]

Thank you for posting this. It's a good visual of how quickly these cars can turn around and bite you in the heinie. I am not speaking out of experience, only from what I've heard, as all my driving so far has been up and down my driveway. So for someone like me, who can't wait to get the car on the road, this video will play in the back of my mind those early days before I get really acquainted with the car. Also happy you didn't wreck the car. I should be in Cape Coral sometime in November, maybe I'll see you at one of the cruise-ins or something.

[Railroad]

Curious, what tires, size and air pressure. Per your rpm sound and speed, does not seem normal. Makes me rethink, some of the brisk pulls I have made. Thanks for being up front with your video.

[rich grsc]

Yep, yep, been there, done that. I think you have no idea about the handling of the car till you've experienced that at least once. Glad you kept it out of the mini

[JohnnyB]

Thanks for posting this. It's a good reminder of how quickly things can get ugly. Glad you are okay and no damage was done.

[Rdone585]

Glad everyone and everything is OK. My first experience with this was in a 60s muscle car with a posi-traction rear end turning left. Also experienced this a couple of time on a test and tune track in Gainesville. It helps to learn how to drive these cars in a controlled environment. I believe Chin runs track events at that track (at least they use to) and will let you joint and sign up.

[Papa]

Dang, Mark! That was a close call. Glad nobody got hurt and you didn't hurt the car. I wouldn't have expected that to happen like it did either. Makes me think something got on the tires or something.

[capt1black]

Hey Mark
Glad you and car are ok. Scary hiw close to mini you got but happy it worked out.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Was it the 1/2 shift dance or did it just break free under load? 99% of the time it will break to the left when it lets go. Discovered my sense of mortality on a too exuberant 1/2 shift at 40*F on Nitto 100 tread wear tires. Did not spin or leave the road but the rear end stepped out about 2 feet or more. Was an excellent heart rate enhancer. :D

FWIW a big box parking lot early Sunday morning is a good place to find some limits if you can't drive in some local AutoX events.

[nucjd19]

Thank you for the M&M ( Mortality and Morbidity ) conference. We learn more from our missteps than our success sometimes. I have plans for quite a bit of autocross in the future if no other reason to know where to keep my self in the 50-60% range of safe driving.

[JB in NOVA]

Whew! Glad everyone is safe. Thanks for posting -- great lesson for some of us newbies.

[mburger]

Curious, what tires, size and air pressure. Per your rpm sound and speed, does not seem normal. Makes me rethink, some of the brisk pulls I have made. Thanks for being up front with your video.

Cooper Cobras
Front 235/60/15 22lbs
Rear 295/50/15 23lbs
About 6-7k miles on them.
I started in 1st and I usually don’t. Stock T5 it’s generally useless. I got a little chirp on 1st which I found unusual as I didn’t think I was on it that hard. Car broke loose in 2nd accelerating.

[mburger]

Thank you for posting this. It's a good visual of how quickly these cars can turn around and bite you in the heinie. I am not speaking out of experience, only from what I've heard, as all my driving so far has been up and down my driveway. So for someone like me, who can't wait to get the car on the road, this video will play in the back of my mind those early days before I get really acquainted with the car. Also happy you didn't wreck the car. I should be in Cape Coral sometime in November, maybe I'll see you at one of the cruise-ins or something.

Shoot me a note once you’re down. There will be lots of cruise ins. I go to a few but I’d rather be driving (not spinning) than sitting in a chair half the day. You’re more than welcome to stop in.

[mburger]

Was it the 1/2 shift dance or did it just break free under load? 99% of the time it will break to the left when it lets go. Discovered my sense of mortality on a too exuberant 1/2 shift at 40*F on Nitto 100 tread wear tires. Did not spin or leave the road but the rear end stepped out about 2 feet or more. Was an excellent heart rate enhancer. :D

FWIW a big box parking lot early Sunday morning is a good place to find some limits if you can't drive in some local AutoX events.

I believe it was under acceleration just into 2nd. I’ve thought about the parking lots in the area. I figure mall security would be out in force!

[Al_C]

2nd gear can be a real problem. Ask me how I know...

I find it interesting how many people have responded to this thread. An argument for traction control, perhaps? Glad it had a (relatively) happy ending! Thankfully, these events are learning experiences. (at least it was for me)

[rtbellah]

Thank you for posting this....it is a good lesson for all of us - current drivers and builders. I think it's even more important for the current builders to temper the temptation to go wild once they get on the road - I know that I plan to be careful and cautious but your video shows very clearly that things can go sideways in a hurry - LITERALLY! Glad nobody got hurt and no damage to anything (except maybe a little grass) Happy motoring!:cool:

[mburger]

Yep, yep, been there, done that. I think you have no idea about the handling of the car till you've experienced that at least once. Glad you kept it out of the mini

Yeah, that was my main issue, the Mini and I d like to use that as an excuse for the spin, but who knows?

[GTBradley]

Been there, done that, didn't want the t-shirt! Only my experience was shifting at redline from 2nd to 3rd. Not an experience I want to have again. Glad it worked out for you, but like has been said already you have a valuable experience there that will keep you thinking - in any car or meteorological condition. Don't be too hard on yourself, it happens, but also, don't let it make you timid, that ship needs a capable, educated captain.

I highly recommend autocross so you can experience more of this in safe conditions. The major lesson I took away was to never shift hard (not suggesting you did), that's where the tires are most likely to come loose. When they come loose at other times things tend to be more manageable.

[austinsnake]

Thanks for posting, Mark.

Just curious what rear end ratio you are running, and I'm guessing your 347 delivers plenty of hp and torque.

[GoDadGo]

Having driven only once on a damp road, I totally get it.
Glad that the only thing damaged was your ego.
Also, you did a nice job avoiding that Mini.

[RJD]

Thanks for posting. With 700 miles on mine now, I'm starting to think I know the car. This is a reminder that I probably don't.

[mburger]

Thanks for posting, Mark.

Just curious what rear end ratio you are running, and I'm guessing your 347 delivers plenty of hp and torque.

Gears are 3:55.
347 dyno’d at Mike Forte’s at 439/439.

[GoDadGo]

Steve's Stupid Questions:

#1...Since you are running a Mustang 4-Link rear setup, could you be dealing with a little "Mustang Rear Shimmy" which is caused by worn quad shocks?
#2...Heck, are you even running Quad Shock since I don't know if they are needed assuming that you upgraded to the Koni Coil-Over setup?
#3...Could you be having this issue since the rear geometry is the same and your wheelbase is about 10" shorter than a Mustang?

I know a few fellows who say their Mustangs get a little twitchy if their Quad Shocks are worn so that's why I'm asking my stupid questions...To me, it didn't look like you had applied a lot of power as you grabbed 2nd gear...I also wonder if you drove through a little patch of oil or coolant shortly before the incident because it appears that the car gave you little or no notice before your traction went away and you spun out.

Steve

[Sdonnel]

I'm with GoDadGo on this one. When it hasn't rained for a while in NW Ohio, the first rain usually makes intersections a skating rink. I've never spun out, but I have fishtailed in what I thought was near perfect conditions after a light rain had dried from the street.

Scott

[ggunter]

I wasn't sitting in the car but I'm amazed at how quickly that came around. It didn't seem like you were into it at all. A damp rd must be worse than a wet one because of the false sence of security. I would love to put a 427 in my car just to say I have it in there but from most of the videos Iv'e seen everyone of them spins the tires in almost every gear, and trying to control that short wheelbase is just about impossible at high speed. I'll keep my 347.

[weendoggy]

Gears are 3:55.
347 dyno’d at Mike Forte’s at 439/439.

You are very fortunate along with the Mini driver. Glad you realized before something happened. Those gears and a T5 are not a good match with 1st gear as you found out.

[GTBradley]

There is something else you should consider. Right after the expletive you can hear the engine go to rev limiter which means in your attempt to fix things you got the gas instead of the brake, or you got the brake and the gas. I would suggest looking at how close the brake pedal and gas pedal are to each other and that the brake pedal is in front of the gas pedal, not even with it.

[weendoggy]

There is something else you should consider. Right after the expletive you can hear the engine go to rev limiter which means in your attempt to fix things you got the gas instead of the brake, or you got the brake and the gas. I would suggest looking at how close the brake pedal and gas pedal are to each other and that the brake pedal is in front of the gas pedal, not even with it.

The saying is: "If you spin, both feet in"!

[ptstew]

Glad everything OK, Mark.

[Blue Viking]

Shoot me a note once you’re down. There will be lots of cruise ins. I go to a few but I’d rather be driving (not spinning) than sitting in a chair half the day. You’re more than welcome to stop in.

Thanks, i might just do that. Still waiting to see what date the US is opening up for visitors

[Jeff Kleiner]

The saying is: "If you spin, both feet in"!

When I spin on the autocross course (which usually happens at least a couple of times every season) I generally grab first gear, put my right foot way down on the gas and turn it into a few smoky donuts---it's a crowd pleaser, but there ain't anything to hit except more cones! I don't recommend this if you spin on the street however; in that case follow Glen's "two feet in" approach ;)

Glad all ended well Mark, now find some autocross events and get out there.

Jeff

[klawrence]

as we all know and just as a friendly reminder...Just after rain has started or during a mist the roads are very slippery due to the rain bringing any oils to the surface. Well at least that what I have been told. I have been caught in the rain a few times coming home from Ford nationals in the SC F100...I think I just rested my foot on the go pedal the whole way home.

Glad no one and no cars were hurt in this video.

[B Campbell]

Had a similar thing happen in my 68 Rally Sport Camaro but not on acceleration. was driving in wet conditions coming into a slight right turn jog in the road tapped the brakes and around we went no chance to correct it just snapped around. fortunately there was plenty of room and I didn't hit any thing just ended up facing south on a northbound road. thanks for sharing glad there was no damage to your car.

[fletch]

I was fortunate in that the first time the 818 broke loose I was at a track with only one or two other cars. I was not so fortunate in that the run off area was nil and New Mexico has lots of loose dirt. Regardless, I am quite grateful for the experience.
Glad you and car are safe.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?33577-fletch-amp-son-s-build-thread&p=466179&viewfull=1#post466179

[mburger]

Steve's Stupid Questions:

#1...Since you are running a Mustang 4-Link rear setup, could you be dealing with a little "Mustang Rear Shimmy" which is caused by worn quad shocks?
#2...Heck, are you even running Quad Shock since I don't know if they are needed assuming that you upgraded to the Koni Coil-Over setup?
#3...Could you be having this issue since the rear geometry is the same and your wheelbase is about 10" shorter than a Mustang?

I know a few fellows who say their Mustangs get a little twitchy if their Quad Shocks are worn so that's why I'm asking my stupid questions...To me, it didn't look like you had applied a lot of power as you grabbed 2nd gear...I also wonder if you drove through a little patch of oil or coolant shortly before the incident because it appears that the car gave you little or no notice before your traction went away and you spun out.

Steve

Hey Steve. I just have the coil overs in the back. I had changed out both upper and lower rear control arms.
You make an excellent point about picking up material on the tires as the intersection before this is a major interchange. Bottom line, it’s a 347 that dyno’d at 439 at the flywheel and the torque is up at 400 by 2000rpm in a car that weighs 2200lbs. I took it for granted and I got lucky. My 360 took me through my lane across a wide right turn lane and then off into the soft grass. That is a lot of real estate where other cars and people could have been. Everyone on this thread is making excellent observations and points. This is why I did not share this video to any of the Facebook groups, just here. I didn’t need a bunch of guys who don’t own a Cobra calling me a clown who can’t handle his car. That’s my job!

[CobraboyDR]

Lots of power in a short wheelbase will do that to you if the go pedal input exceeds the brain input.

[Just puttering]

What was the temperature I see the clouds in the sky and assume a cool day?
How far had you driven up to that point?

I am wondering if cold road and tires multiplied the chances of it breaking loose?

[GoDadGo]

You make an excellent point about picking up material on the tires as the intersection before this is a major interchange.

I still think that you drove through some crap, but I wasn't there when you experienced Mr. Toad's Wild Ride!
One time I was on one of my bikes when a lady in a Taurus Wagon dumped a butt load of coolant on the ground which I rolled through.
Riding that bike home for the next few miles was the toughest thing I ever experienced on two wheels because the coolant seemed almost as bad as oil.
As for me, I'll use your experience to make me be a bit more cautious when I'm driving around in Redbone, the Dark Side Factory Five Roadster.
Again, Glad You & Your Car Are Fine!

[mike223]

6. First and only chance to properly correct this to avoid the outcome was lost by:
a, Too much wheel input (Overcorrecting) on the first correction and,
b, Being complacent and not focused because 100 times the car hooks up fine so why would I expect anything different this time? Barely 1/4 input on the throttle.
7. Zero training on handling the car. Driving it to it's limits to see where those, and my limits are etc. and then learning/practicing to be better.



Mark, I'm glad everything turned out ok.

Your 6a+b and 7 are good, just wanted to throw one more critical thing in for you (and anyone else) to be thinking about.


I can clearly hear you stepped completely out of the throttle as soon as it started coming around at 0:11

I'm guessing you may have gotten on the brake too - it's a perfectly normal reaction (but wrong).


You will spin these cars every time you get one sideways (even slightly) and then step completely off throttle - and more so if you step off the throttle and onto the brake.

Because the weight transfers off the rear wheels and they've already lost traction.


The only way to save that is to come back to neutral throttle - neutral to very slightly leading throttle - and keep some weight on the back tires.

And it has to be reflex quick - you don't have time to think through it - you have to practice it (somewhere safe).


"Two feet in" (brake + clutch) is the standard after you know you've lost it - but that's just going to limit the extent of the spin you've already committed.


Neutral throttle + front wheels as straight as possible - reflex quick - is the only way to get out of that situation (0:10-0:11) without spinning.


It takes practice.

Autocross is a good safe place to work on it.

[NC Cobra]

Alternatively, driving in the snow and ice develop that skill set very quickly. Certainly not to be done with the Cobra, but those of us who learned to drive up North may have some fond memories of their teen years doing doughnuts in empty parking lots. ��

[Al_C]

Alternatively, driving in the snow and ice develop that skill set very quickly. Certainly not to be done with the Cobra, but those of us who learned to drive up North may have some fond memories of their teen years doing doughnuts in empty parking lots. ��

Teen years??? Heck, it's still fun! Although it is a lot harder with front or all wheel drive... :D

[mburger]

Mark, I'm glad everything turned out ok.

Your 6a+b and 7 are good, just wanted to throw one more critical thing in for you (and anyone else) to be thinking about.


I can clearly hear you stepped completely out of the throttle as soon as it started coming around at 0:11

I'm guessing you may have gotten on the brake too - it's a perfectly normal reaction (but wrong).


You will spin these cars every time you get one sideways (even slightly) and then step completely off throttle - and more so if you step off the throttle and onto the brake.

Because the weight transfers off the rear wheels and they've already lost traction.


The only way to save that is to come back to neutral throttle - neutral to very slightly leading throttle - and keep some weight on the back tires.

And it has to be reflex quick - you don't have time to think through it - you have to practice it (somewhere safe).


"Two feet in" (brake + clutch) is the standard after you know you've lost it - but that's just going to limit the extent of the spin you've already committed.


Neutral throttle + front wheels as straight as possible - reflex quick - is the only way to get out of that situation (0:10-0:11) without spinning.


It takes practice.

Autocross is a good safe place to work on it.

Hey thanks for the great post. I let up on the gas likely but definitely never touched the brakes.
Again being this is the first time in the car sideways you become a rider on a circus ride instead of a driver in control.

[mburger]

Alternatively, driving in the snow and ice develop that skill set very quickly. Certainly not to be done with the Cobra, but those of us who learned to drive up North may have some fond memories of their teen years doing doughnuts in empty parking lots. ��

Lived in New York for 51 years. I guess I should’ve had a cobra up there lol because I clearly forgot anything I learned. ;)

[Fixit]

Excerpt from post 388 on my build thread...


There's a text out there describing "Life with a Cobra Replica...blah blah". One sentence should be engraved on your brain and the dashboard.
"Disrespect me and I will kill you".

Add up the following:
Roads are cold but dry
Tires are cold
450HP on tap
Short wheelbase
Occasional puddle/run-off/wet on the road

I'll save you the trouble... it equals "spirited straight acceleration turning into a 1/2-lock powerskid don't snap the throttle shut or overcorrect keep your goddam foot off the brakes holy **** that retaining wall is close damn I saved it and need to shake the turds out of my pants" in less time than you took to read that.

(No Mr. Kleiner, you don't have any extra work.)

Probably what saved my azz is 40+ years of driving on ice for 6 mos. of the year... but these cars give very little warning. They're happy, happy, happy, SNAP, sideways.

[Railroad]

Just to add a plus to the drivers side, Consider Treadwear ratings in the neighborhood of 200. I doubt it was the major factor in the OPs incident, but I think those Coopers are 450. That is a pretty hard tire on a light, short and powerful car.

[Ian G]

One of several things I don't do with my Cobra is accelerate briskly thru an intersection from a stop. Where I live there are usually low spots like smooth ruts at 90 degrees that can cause the rear wheels to lighten up and they can spin 1/2 a turn or more. I learned that 50+ years ago with my 340 Duster.

[cob427sc]

Over the last 20 years I have built and sold 4 roadsters and 1 coupe (along with several other cars). All were bought by people who had no experience with what these cars are possible of doing. Three roadsters were crashed within months of my selling them and the coupe was actually crashed by the delivery company after unloading it in a parking lot. The last roadster was sold to a guy who always wanted one, only had driven rice rockets and just had the to have the car. I followed him to his house to get my plates back and he nearly spun at the first intersection. Story goes that he's owned it 4 years, rolls it out into the driveway on weekends and that's as far as it goes as he's afraid to drive it. These cars can be a lot of fun but they are serious machines that can get you into trouble real fast, even with an experienced pilot.

[nucjd19]

Over the last 20 years I have built and sold 4 roadsters and 1 coupe (along with several other cars). All were bought by people who had no experience with what these cars are possible of doing. Three roadsters were crashed within months of my selling them and the coupe was actually crashed by the delivery company after unloading it in a parking lot. The last roadster was sold to a guy who always wanted one, only had driven rice rockets and just had the to have the car. I followed him to his house to get my plates back and he nearly spun at the first intersection. Story goes that he's owned it 4 years, rolls it out into the driveway on weekends and that's as far as it goes as he's afraid to drive it. These cars can be a lot of fun but they are serious machines that can get you into trouble real fast, even with an experienced pilot.

Well this post scares me more than any other I have read. After dealing with my porsche 911 on the track with snap oversteer I can appreciate how a car can get away from you in a bad way quickly. I plan on getting on the throttle only on an autocross event. otherwise just gonna cruise around. I will let any Cooper Mini fly away at a red light and show me who is boss. Got nothing to prove.

[mburger]

I will let any Cooper Mini fly away at a red light and show me who is boss. Got nothing to prove.

Because of the direct implication, I’ll repeat this in case this sentence was lost in the length of the thread.
1. No, I was not racing the Mini, for too many reasons to list. I don't race anyone. Period.

[GoDadGo]

Here is a Public Service Announcement from your favorite Chevy Guy!

Just so you guys know, please let all C5 & C6 Corvette owners go ahead of you when they want to play the stoplight game and here is why:
...https://youtu.be/LWNR-tvvwFo

Shown below are two examples when a Corvette's Active Handling System decides to help folks drive their cars:
1. https://youtu.be/kzlg3oQMze4
2. https://youtu.be/BB-KBaevPqM

Sorry to Hi-Jack This Thread; however, I had a C5 spin out in front of me shortly after getting my car registered and it looked like that car crashed itself.

[nucjd19]

Because of the direct implication, I’ll repeat this in case this sentence was lost in the length of the thread.
1. No, I was not racing the Mini, for too many reasons to list. I don't race anyone. Period.

Sorry mb. Did not mean to imply you were pulling hard off the stop light.

[mike223]

Shown below are the results of what happens when their Active Handling System decides to help them drive their cars:

I had a C5 spin out in front of me shortly after getting my car registered and it looked like that car crashed itself.


GoDad,

Maybe you're right, but I've been under the impression that they *usually* get into that trouble by pushing the button that disables the active handling so they can "show off".


I've autocrossed a few of them (and other vehicles with active handling computer nannies) and they are very difficult to autocross with the active handling on.

1- You can't get them to rotate when you need them to rotate - the computer is fighting you.

2- Many systems are prone to go into "ice" mode, which leaves them practically undriveable until "ice" mode resets.


Disable active handling and they drive very much like our cars - with all the associated potential hazards.

[RoadRacer]

Because of the direct implication, I’ll repeat this in case this sentence was lost in the length of the thread.
1. No, I was not racing the Mini, for too many reasons to list. I don't race anyone. Period.

I find it more fun to let them fly off and embarrass themselves while I gently pull away. Makes me grin every time :D

Thanks for sharing the video.

[GTBradley]

Here is a Public Service Announcement from your favorite Chevy Guy!

Just so you guys know, please let all C5 & C6 Corvette owners go ahead of you when they want to play the stoplight game and here is why:
...https://youtu.be/LWNR-tvvwFo

Shown below are two examples when a Corvette's Active Handling System decides to help folks drive their cars:
1. https://youtu.be/kzlg3oQMze4
2. https://youtu.be/BB-KBaevPqM

Sorry to Hi-Jack This Thread; however, I had a C5 spin out in front of me shortly after getting my car registered and it looked like that car crashed itself.
That is one poorly laid out autocross track!

[mburger]

Sorry mb. Did not mean to imply you were pulling hard off the stop light.

Oh I was definitely pulling a little hard off the light. That was problem number one. I simply was paying no mind to the mini on my left, until my front end was heading towards the side of his car. LOL
All good.

[GoDadGo]

Mark,

On a personal note, I'm glad you posted this thread with video because I thought I was crazy as I worked up to my current Rev-Limit of 6,000.
I started at 3,500 RPM and kept bumping it up 500 RPM as I became more comfortable with my car but still not at the 6,500 intended redline.
I've been fortunate having only driven on a wet road one time in nine months and like you, I'm still learning my car and my abilities.

Thanks Again For Starting This Thread!

Steve

[mike223]

My take is you did not feel the tires let go.

That said, your back-up should have been "I am not accelerating to match the throttle, and the engine is overspeeding." You have to read the warnings instantly.




I agree with this completely - I've been thinking for days that "reflex quick" needed a little finer point - somewhere - but I wasn't sure how to add anything worthwhile.

Looking just at the very beginning of the spin 0:10 - every single degree the rear steps out to the right makes it progressively harder and unlikely to successfully recover.


Once it comes around the other way - it's lost - very few (if any) would ever find a away to recover at that point - that's your "two feet in" point (for this particular event).


I think Mark is well aware of how potentially disastrous this incident was - but for anyone who hasn't considered that angle, take a good hard look at 0:14 - headed offroad backwards at 43 mph - if there had been anything in the way this would have been a fatal accident because the lowback seats would have broken his neck (same for any passenger). It is a certainty.


File it under "mistakes some very good people only got to make once".


One main idea to work at for improvement (somewhere safe where you can't run offroad + can't get rearended):

Launch briskly in first gear and practice snapping the throttle to "barely accelerating" - learn what it sounds like, know it feels like - practice that enough to make it a muscle memory reflex.


Work up to spinning the tires a little on launch - after you're completely off the clutch, stay off the clutch - work on immediately detecting exactly when they start to break free - and apply "barely accelerating" throttle position to gather it all back in - very little steering input required.

If you need much steering input - you're doing it wrong - what you actually need is to detect + correct with throttle position earlier so you don't need all that steering correction.

[mburger]

Sorry about the thread title Jim. I tend to use humor In my life when I’m embarrassed, in pain, nervous, you name it.
Thank you for your well thought out post and again thank you to everyone else for your posts as well.
Hopefully, I’ll be able to use yours, and all the other posts to learn from.

[mburger]

Hey Mike our posts crossed. While I have OEM style head rests in my low back‘s, I’m sure they would have served little purpose in your example. I think I’ve mentioned this earlier in the thread, but that single 360° spin took up a ton of real estate covering my lane, a fortunately empty right turn lane, the shoulder and finally very wet grass on the bank of a runoff ditch.
Your point at 14 seconds is well-made and sobering as it should be. I’ll use your suggestions and the others to get better. Because quite frankly, and this applies to anyone with these cars, I need to if I am going to continue driving it on public roads.
Thanks everyone again. You’re a good group to learn from.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Mark, I have seen the title of this thread for over a day, and curiosity finally got to me. I would not have made a connection without the video.
My take is you did not feel the tires let go. That said, your back-up should have been "I am not accelerating to match the throttle, and the engine is overspeeding." You have to read the warnings instantly.
When the rear went right you lifted the throttle and given the over correction to the left, you steered into the skid.
Unfortunately you got on the throttle again, but the rears were still sliding sideways. They do not hook up that way. I think I heard the engine on the rev limiter which suggests panic.

If you feathered the throttle with just enough steering correction, you likely would have saved it. When control goes away, small corrections first, and judge the reaction. Read the warnings instantly.
jim

Reads pretty well. Would read a lot better without any unnecessary judgement especially one you are uncertain about.

[CobraboyDR]

Mark, I have seen the title of this thread for over a day, and curiosity finally got to me. I would not have made a connection without the video.
My take is you did not feel the tires let go. That said, your back-up should have been "I am not accelerating to match the throttle, and the engine is overspeeding." You have to read the warnings instantly.
When the rear went right you lifted the throttle and given the over correction to the left, you steered into the skid.
Unfortunately you got on the throttle again, but the rears were still sliding sideways. They do not hook up that way. I think I heard the engine on the rev limiter which suggests panic.

If you feathered the throttle with just enough steering correction, you likely would have saved it. When control goes away, small corrections first, and judge the reaction. Read the warnings instantly.
jimYour post reminds me of the southern expression:

"When you're up to your a$$ in alligators, it's hard to remember the primary objective was to drain the swamp."

The same over/under reactions also happen on motorcycles.

Traction management is as much quick-twitch reactive art as science. Especially to the 99.9% of us who are "casual" non-pro lo-po drivers.

Fact is, huge power and a short wheelbase in inexperienced hands can lead to spendy faux pas...

The most simple solution is to not get into that situation in the first place by more judicial go-pedal manipulation.

[mike223]

Traction management is as much quick-twitch reactive art as science.

Especially to the 99.9% of us who are "casual" non-pro lo-po drivers.



Very true - but you absolutely can train yourself to provide a more appropriate quick-twitch - rather than the more commonly natural (wrong) quick-twitch.


But you have to work it all the way to being your new "natural reflex".

[CobraboyDR]

Very true - but you absolutely can train yourself to provide a more appropriate quick-twitch - rather than the more commonly natural (wrong) quick-twitch.


But you have to work it all the way to being your new "natural reflex".The same is true of that 18y.o. buying his first flashy new sportbike, and not surviving a month.

It's just another form of Darwinism.

Those that survive may be able to enhance their skills. Any wt./hp ratio under 6-7 is a real challenge for the novice. Cold conditions just make it worse.

[john42]

Deju Vu for me! Only I did something similar in my 2000 BMW M5. Had aggressive summer tires, a spot of quick rain had just gone through and in 2nd gear did a 360 in the middle of a 4 way traffic light. Road felt like slick polished ice with those tires. Traction control was off and I was in M-Sport mode as I was driving home from an Autocross event and dummy me didn't press the button to turn that back on. No one was hurt and no cars were hit, which to this day I'm still flabbergasted about, as this happened on an extremely high traffic time in Boston.... Had it not been many many years ago it would have easily made reddit r/idiotsincars forum...

[J R Jones]

Your post reminds me of the southern expression:

"When you're up to your a$$ in alligators, it's hard to remember the primary objective was to drain the swamp."

The same over/under reactions also happen on motorcycles.

Traction management is as much quick-twitch reactive art as science. Especially to the 99.9% of us who are "casual" non-pro lo-po drivers.

Fact is, huge power and a short wheelbase in inexperienced hands can lead to spendy faux pas...

The most simple solution is to not get into that situation in the first place by more judicial go-pedal manipulation.

Cobraboy, I was critiqued for my observations which I feel were valid. I guess you had to be there. We might agree that athletic superstars are born with natural ability. Without the "gift" there is only so far one can advance towards the top. When I started racing and applied for a license in subsequent years I was told that I was becoming a rarity. Many novices do not make it to year two or three. There are a variety of reasons but ultimately driving a car at the maximum performance while others are doing the same (with no regard for you) is not for everyone. My point? You financed and built your dream, now what do you do with it? Marriage is not the same as dating.
My theory is driving at the limit requires the natural ability often described as muscle memory, because there is no time to think about response. Furthermore I theorize a strong survival instinct is required. That results in calmly analyzing the dynamics, solving the problem and looking forward to the next challenge.
jim

[CobraboyDR]

Cobraboy, I was critiqued for my observations which I feel were valid. I guess you had to be there. We might agree that athletic superstars are born with natural ability. Without the "gift" there is only so far one can advance towards the top. When I started racing and applied for a license in subsequent years I was told that I was becoming a rarity. Many novices do not make it to year two or three. There are a variety of reasons but ultimately driving a car at the maximum performance while others are doing the same (with no regard for you) is not for everyone. My point? You financed and built your dream, now what do you do with it? Marriage is not the same as dating.
My theory is driving at the limit requires the natural ability often described as muscle memory, because there is no time to think about response. Furthermore I theorize a strong survival instinct is required. That results in calmly analyzing the dynamics, solving the problem and looking forward to the next challenge.
jimAside from the skill required, I mainly question driving a short-wheelbase, massively-powered car "at the limit" on the street.

Beyond the skill required to tame the beast when it is driven at the limit on the street, the guy next to you has no idea what your skill level is, and *his* reaction/overreaction based on what *you* are doing could also have dire consequences in the situation. The odds of two supremely talented race veterans sitting side-by-side in hi-po beasts, street racing to "the limit" is about as likely as me ever becoming handsome, hung, and rich. The odds of one of us f@cking up is as likely as me being homely, hung "like an Irishman," and so poor I can't pay attention.

[JohnK]

Aside from the skill required, I mainly question driving a short-wheelbase, massively-powered car "at the limit" on the street.



No offense to the OP but the thing is, hardly any of us here really know what the real limit of these vehicles is. The "limit" is our skills. I learned that when riding motorcycles. I attended a clinic put on by Lee Parks one weekend. It was focused on the basics of throttle and brake control, body position, etc. I couldn't convince any of my buddies to take it with me because it seemed too "basic" and they thought there were all hotshot riders. In that one weekend I learned that I really didn't know anything I thought I knew. I came out of that weekend being able to drag a knee on a big dual-sport (with a steel skid plate and pannier racks, no less). Would I ride that way on the street? Oh, hell no. But being able to ride like that meant that I could ride faster on the street than I previously did and still be at a lower percentage of *my* skill limit so I was actually riding safer even though I was faster.

It's the same with cars. It's all about learning the proper skills in a safe environment. Autocross, track instruction days, driving schools are all a great way to increase our personal limits.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153878&d=1632842172

[mike223]

Aside from the skill required, I mainly question driving a short-wheelbase, massively-powered car "at the limit" on the street.



I don't think anyone here has been advocating that - at all.


For me it's more about coaching what + how to safely learn to have a chance of gathering that beast back in when something goes wrong. Your fault - my fault - his fault - nobodies fault (it happens).


Your advice of you'd better not ever take a chance on losing control is very, very good advice.


But these cars are state of the art race cars from a much less risk adverse past - they can and will do things in the course of (what should be) relatively benign normal operation that can kill you real quick.


Especially if you provide precisely the wrong reactive input when that situation presents itself.


Discussing how to approach developing those skills safely is not a bad thing.

[CobraboyDR]

No offense to the OP but the thing is, hardly any of us here really know what the real limit of these vehicles is. The "limit" is our skills. I learned that when riding motorcycles. I attended a clinic put on by Lee Parks one weekend. It was focused on the basics of throttle and brake control, body position, etc. I couldn't convince any of my buddies to take it with me because it seemed too "basic" and they thought there were all hotshot riders. In that one weekend I learned that I really didn't know anything I thought I knew. I came out of that weekend being able to drag a knee on a big dual-sport (with a steel skid plate and pannier racks, no less). Would I ride that way on the street? Oh, hell no. But being able to ride like that meant that I could ride faster on the street than I previously did and still be at a lower percentage of *my* skill limit so I was actually riding safer even though I was faster.

It's the same with cars. It's all about learning the proper skills in a safe environment. Autocross, track instruction days, driving schools are all a great way to increase our personal limits.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153878&d=1632842172Lee Parks is a personal friend of mine. I have operated motorcycle tours in the Caribbean for 13 years with a fleet of DL650's, and am producing a documentary film series with bikes here.

[CobraboyDR]

"A superior sailor is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skill."

Like motorcycles, the harridan Karen's on the streets make owning these fast cars much more difficult. I, for one, don't want to give them more ammo. We already have chipped sportbikes with talks of more restrictions on motorcycles like in Europe.

I am all for training no matter the hobby. I am NOT for hipo street semi-racing that puts innocent people in danger, whether two, three or four wheels. That's all I am saying.

[mburger]

I am NOT for hipo street semi-racing that puts innocent people in danger, whether two, three or four wheels. That's all I am saying.

I'm going to assume that you are not referring to me. However, unlike some of the posts on this thread, I don't like assuming anything and am having trouble understanding how that comment relates to my spin.

As the first and only person to have ever spun out on a public road and "did all the wrong things" and was left for the "law of Darwinism" to weed me out of civilization, or succumbing to sheer panic, being a novice, inexperienced driver in an overpowered short wheelbase race car on the street, I'm extremely fortunate to have caught this rare occurrence on video!

This thread reads like the telephone game, where you start with a sentence, and by the time you reach the end of the line, it makes no sense or hardly resembles the original sentence.
I have listened to all of you, and have honestly and sincerely taken your words of wisdom and advice on how to better my skills.
Some of the posts in this thread were as much an eye opener to me as the spin itself. Take that as you see fit.

A sincere thank you to everyone who sought to help, commiserate or encourage me. I really appreciate it and will take your advice with me to wherever I'll be practicing and developing my skills!

[Fman]

I am so glad your ok, that must have been one heck of a feeling.... you must be living right. Spinning is always on my mind when driving my car. Spinning out seems to be one of the the most common causes of someone crashing a Cobra.

I actually just had a track day last week, going into it blind I did not realize how much I was going to benefit from it until I completed a day of driving out there. As slow of a driver as I was it definitely helped me learn my car at higher speeds, turns and braking conditions in a controlled environment.

[65 Cobra Dude]

This thread has run its course! Closed by request of the OP.

Henry