Calling Jeff Kleiner... curious your experience over the years with build issues.

[nucjd19]

Hey, don't fail to take credit for that! FFR creates a great package with good bones but it was up to you to put it all together well. Trust me, I've had some cars come through my shop that were built from the same foundation as yours and they were downright scary :( Congrats on hitting a milestone and a job well done!

Jeff

I did not want to hijack the post so making a new one.....

Jeff ( and Jeff Miller too) I would love to hear your experience with common (or uncommon) missteps ( small and egregious ) you have seen over the years when you get a rig in to paint. I think it would benefit the board to learn from these experiences and to ensure we keep them to a minimum. Obviously keeping the rig and owners anonymous. A lot of folks do not do build threads so folks like You, edwardb, Papa, etc are not there to catch a misstep.

Not wanting to out anyone. Just thinking that it would be a good refresher and reminder to everyone. If you feel uncomfortable by all means don't post anything and I totally understand.

[j.miller]

Well, Let's see. I try to get my customers not to try trimming anything. The pitfalls to trimming is trimming the wrong edge first and not being able to correct it...for example, the hood. If you trim the back edge of the hood first ,get a nice even line then try to move the hood back to adjust you can have a problem with the reveal on the bottom side interfere with the jamb. Passenger door. The inner panel has to be taken into account for front and rear edge trimming. The top of the dash needs to be 3/16in below the tubbing on either end, the center doesn't matter. Put 5/8 spacers on top of the frame just in front of the hood hinge brackets to help hold the body up. Don't permanently attach any part to the body until it's finished (these body's move around). Body's aren't symmetrical so don't sweat that the fenders aren't an equal distance over the tires.....I'll leave Kleiner a few to answer...da Bat.....oh! measure 3 times ,cut once so you don't have to buy a hood !

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yeah, what he said as far as trimming. If they're going to drive in gelcoat for a while I tell my guys to only do the bare minimum to get the doors, hood and trunk to fit into the holes, don't try to set gaps and caution them about what/where to trim. Also don't try to cut the scoop hole or mount the scoop because the center of the hood isn't the center of the car. nucjd19, you and I have already had this conversation ;)

I see stuff and always try to diplomatically suggest to the owners that there's something that they "might want to check or give some attention to." Since I have to tear them down for body & paint I find it obvious that a lot of builders give no consideration to ever having to disassemble or service the car; that's not dangerous just an inconvenience. Sometimes it's almost comical to wonder what the builder was thinking! Seriously though I'd have to say electrical is #1 on the scary list. I often pull bodies and find virtual rats' nests behind the dash. You don't use house wire nuts, you don't make 3 or 4 splices over a 12" run and you don't leave exposed uninsulated copper (a couple years ago I had one try to burn itself down when a bare hot wire contacted the back of the carbon fiber dash---I was working on another car, heard a sizzle like bacon frying, looked over and saw smoke rising from the dash with a hole burning through!) I've had more than one car here that I wouldn't walk away from unless the battery was disconnected!

Jeff

[nucjd19]

Huge thank you for your responses fellas! quick take home..... put down the sanding block and spend that extra time make sure wiring is safe.

And huge thank you for taking your time out to speak with men the phone Jeff. It is truly appreciated.

[Fixit]

I find it obvious that a lot of builders give no consideration to ever having to disassemble or service the car

During the assembly of #9365 I kept in the back of my mind - "What if I ever have to get back in there??" and made plans accordingly. I have a personal/mental list that I affectionately call my "Punch in the Nuts" file.
While working on things (anything), and run into the situation of, or utter the words "Who the Hell designed/built this thing"... they're added to the list. If I ever meet them I'll punch them in the nuts/ovaries!
Things break. Things wear out. They have to be replaced. Make it easy to do so.

[Jeff Kleiner]

During the assembly of #9365 I kept in the back of my mind - "What if I ever have to get back in there??" and made plans accordingly. I have a personal/mental list that I affectionately call my "Punch in the Nuts" file.
While working on things (anything), and run into the situation of, or utter the words "Who the Hell designed/built this thing"... they're added to the list. If I ever meet them I'll punch them in the nuts/ovaries!
Things break. Things wear out. They have to be replaced. Make it easy to do so.

Although I won't name names on the negative side I won't hesitate pointing out that you get high marks on the plus side...and saying that it was much appreciated :)

Jeff

[nucjd19]

Jeffs...... What is the most inconvenient assembly aspect can a builder do to make service/ disassembly difficult? I am thinking through the build and thinking the window reinstall could be a bear without tapping the holes on the the arms. Also installing the elephant ears before final body fitment could be irritating.

[michael everson]

Some of the things I learned building hundreds of these cars.
I rarely use a nut and bolt. Its one or the other. as an example anything bolted to the firewall. Use nutserts. Easy to get to both sides during the build. Not so easy after. same with the steering bearing at the firewall I use carriage bolts to install it. only need to get to one side if it ever needs to be removed.
Tap the windshield arms. So hard to get to nuts and bolts with so much in the way on these more modern cobras.
If your using just quick jacks, put the bolt in from the outside. I then weld 2 nuts beside each other and and use them to secure the quick jacks, The second welded nut wont allow the other to rotate while tightening or loosening. No need to drop the tank.

Lots of things you can do to make these more service friendly in the future.
Mike

[nucjd19]

Thank you for the advice Michael!

[ggunter]

This is a very good post. The what if's are something to think about on these cars. So much of the car is inaccessable or really difficult to get at once the body is on. Taking off the body isn't the end of the world but it's three hours of extra work in my world. Then reinstall so it's a pain you can do without. Having worked in the repair side of the trucking world for 55 years and seen how they get beat to hell and back, the biggest problem for them is wiring. primarily routing and clipping as they like to call it. My tech's are sent to special classes just to learn the proper way of running harnesses to prevent chaffing, high friction points, and stress points. So my personal opinion is do the very best you can to secure your wiring with loom, ample p clamps and the right connectors, AND MAKE IT NEAT!!!!!!

[Jeff Kleiner]

RE: Rivnuts/nutserts. I get a lot of cars that have had the splash panels attached to the "F" panels using them. Problem is that often times when the inserts have been installed they weren't sufficiently expanded into the aluminum and when I go to remove the fastener the insert breaks loose and the whole works spins. Many times this is compounded because a stainless screw was used in a steel insert and they galled, effectively welding them together. In both cases I have to cut them off so what was done in an effort to make disassembly easier has the opposite effect. Rivets are easy to drill out ;)

And speaking of splash panels and rivnuts and my comment earlier about how sometimes you just wonder what the builder was thinking...not long ago I got one in that had rivnuts in one front splash panel, 1/8" rivets in the other, 3/16" rivets in one rear panel and the self drilling TEK screws that FFR uses to temporarily secure the aluminum in the other. 4 panels, 4 methods of attachment! I guess it was an experiment to see which he preferred :D

Jeff

[Papa]

RE: Rivnuts/nutserts. I get a lot of cars that have had the splash panels attached to the "F" panels using them. Problem is that often times when the inserts have been installed they weren't sufficiently expanded into the aluminum and when I go to remove the fastener the insert breaks loose and the whole works spins. Many times this is compounded because a stainless screw was used in a steel insert and they galled, effectively welding them together. In both cases I have to cut them off so what was done in an effort to make disassembly easier has the opposite effect. Rivets are easy to drill out ;)

And speaking of splash panels and rivnuts and my comment earlier about how sometimes you just wonder what the builder was thinking...not long ago I got one in that had rivnuts in one front splash panel, 1/8" rivets in the other, 3/16" rivets in one rear panel and the self drilling TEK screws that FFR uses to temporarily secure the aluminum in the other. 4 panels, 4 methods of attachment! I guess it was an experiment to see which he preferred :D

Jeff

Along the same line as what Jeff mentioned here, I recommend picking a common hardware size that can be used as much as possible. I settled on #10-24 for the bulk of my build, and chose stainless steel over other materials to prevent rust, but you do have to be careful when combining stainless with other materials.

[cob427sc]

I agree with Papa. I use #10-24 stainless screws as much as possible and pretty much other size stainless wherever possible. Just remember to use anti-seize or anti-gall coating on all connections.

[J R Jones]

Along the same line as what Jeff mentioned here, I recommend picking a common hardware size that can be used as much as possible. I settled on #10-24 for the bulk of my build, and chose stainless steel over other materials to prevent rust, but you do have to be careful when combining stainless with other materials.

Papa, Actually the worst combination for thread seizing is SS on SS. At high torque, the threads gaul, then you are screwed. In the marine industry we used Permatex #2 on every thread not requiring Loctite. The "noble" nature of stainless sacrifices aluminum to corrosion and / or dissimilar metals lead to galvanic corrosion. There can also be crevice corrosion, blocked by the sealant.
Torque on stainless fasteners is limited, usually about the equivalent to grade five, but I am always cautious to "feel the stretch" lest it lead to yield and fracture.
jim

[frankeeski]

I see stuff and always try to diplomatically suggest to the owners that there's something that they "might want to check or give some attention to." Since I have to tear them down for body & paint I find it obvious that a lot of builders give no consideration to ever having to disassemble or service the car; that's not dangerous just an inconvenience. Sometimes it's almost comical to wonder what the builder was thinking! Seriously though I'd have to say electrical is #1 on the scary list. I often pull bodies and find virtual rats' nests behind the dash. You don't use house wire nuts, you don't make 3 or 4 splices over a 12" run and you don't leave exposed uninsulated copper (a couple years ago I had one try to burn itself down when a bare hot wire contacted the back of the carbon fiber dash---I was working on another car, heard a sizzle like bacon frying, looked over and saw smoke rising from the dash with a hole burning through!) I've had more than one car here that I wouldn't walk away from unless the battery was disconnected!

Jeff

So Kleiner, was I diplomatic enough when describing the electrical in this one? ;)

Go to the 5:39 minute mark to get right to the electrical nightmare.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFwvoqiOZDU

[FMJ]

I'm guilty of the dash rats nest (as Jeff can attest) but no house wire nuts. Paint looks good.

-Fred

[FMJ]

I'm guilty of the dash rats nest (as Jeff can attest) but no house wire nuts. Paint looks good.

-Fred

[frd2]

I'm guilty of the dash rats nest (as Jeff can attest) but no house wire nuts. Paint looks good.

-Fred

Yeah - if he has pulled the body off of mine yet then I bet he stopped, disconnected the battery, and went inside to grab a cold beverage!

Every chance I got to add an option or make a change it got worse.

Greg