PCV - Using Oil

[mburger]

Hey everyone.

My BPE 347 with a few thousand miles on it is still using A LOT of oil. To the point that unless something changes for the better, BPE will have a very unhappy customer wanting a new engine. Before I get ahead of myself too much, here's what's going on.
BPE 347 dyno'd at Mike Forte's at 439/439.
Currently about 3k miles.
No smoke in the exhaust and no leaks.
I just used a half a quart in 200 miles!!
I called BPE and they gave me the line, well, even OEM engines use oil and anything below 1 quart in 1,000 miles is "normal".
I said I'm using more than that. BPE said, well, wait until it gets to 5,000 miles and see where things are, because the 347 takes longer to break in.
I don't know enough to know if I'm getting smoke blown up my skirt or not.

On to the PCV.

Yesterday I removed the throttle body, to install my turkey pan. Plain as day, the inside of the manifold is wet with oil. Also, the port where the PCV hose is connected has more oil there as well.
There is a baffle, (A plate) in the valve cover so when you look into the open grommet, all you see is the plate. However, oil is obviously getting sucked into the manifold.
It is hard for me to believe THAT MUCH oil is being lost without seeing smoke out the sides.

I've had a poorly baffled PCV valve in the past, and it caused smoke out the pipes.
So I'm looking for suggestions, and/or input please. Do I have a larger issue here? Do I have some other issue that's the root cause of this?


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151832&d=1628454375

[GoDadGo]

Could you possibly install a Plastic Fuel Filter in the hose between the valve cover and your carb to see how much oil is getting sucked up?

Plastic Fuel Filter Link:
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-premium-3-8-inlet-outlet-plastic-in-line-fuel-filter-86003/10859966-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=10859966-P&adtype=pla&product_channel=online&store_code=&gclid=CjwKCAjwgb6IBhAREiwAgMYKRv7GpFCr6px9pANkrsfh 5bOrmfiWUQzn1ZKDJGXA27Y1tsCt5ni0fxoC6owQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I did this simple exercise before upgrading my grommet on my PCV Valve which corrected my oil slurping problem.

Upgraded Valve Cover Grommet:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7354434?cid=paidsearch_shopping_dcoe_google&campaign=GSC-Agricultural-Industrial&campaign_id=11652138123&adgroup_id=112284480686&adtype=pla&gclid=CjwKCAjwgb6IBhAREiwAgMYKRl7tp86OgLyfYu6s6-VvDoPgLI_8y1JIX4VXgximg5uPSndty4y1GhoCd1sQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&

Going down this path allowed me to see and/or confirm what was going on.

Good Luck!

[Railroad]

You can install an oil separator or catch can, but I would improve the baffling first. Here is a link to one of the more popular brands.
https://www.jlttruecoldair.com/oil-separators/

[mburger]

Could you possibly install a Plastic Fuel Filter in the hose between the valve cover and your carb to see how much oil is getting sucked up?

Plastic Fuel Filter Link:
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-premium-3-8-inlet-outlet-plastic-in-line-fuel-filter-86003/10859966-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=10859966-P&adtype=pla&product_channel=online&store_code=&gclid=CjwKCAjwgb6IBhAREiwAgMYKRv7GpFCr6px9pANkrsfh 5bOrmfiWUQzn1ZKDJGXA27Y1tsCt5ni0fxoC6owQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I did this simple exercise before upgrading my grommet on my PCV Valve which corrected my oil slurping problem.

Upgraded Valve Cover Grommet:
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7354434?cid=paidsearch_shopping_dcoe_google&campaign=GSC-Agricultural-Industrial&campaign_id=11652138123&adgroup_id=112284480686&adtype=pla&gclid=CjwKCAjwgb6IBhAREiwAgMYKRl7tp86OgLyfYu6s6-VvDoPgLI_8y1JIX4VXgximg5uPSndty4y1GhoCd1sQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&

Going down this path allowed me to see and/or confirm what was going on.

Good Luck!


I like your inline filter idea Steve. Simple, inexpensive and should shed light on how much oil is really getting past the PCV valve.
I had a grommet like that what only a slot opened on the bottom and the engine smoked until I changed it out.
Thanks Steve!

[mburger]

You can install an oil separator or catch can, but I would improve the baffling first. Here is a link to one of the more popular brands.
https://www.jlttruecoldair.com/oil-separators/

Another good idea. If I get oil, and I will, in the filter, I’ll check out the separators. Thanks!

[johnnybgoode]

Hey everyone.

My BPE 347 with a few thousand miles on it is still using A LOT of oil. To the point that unless something changes for the better, BPE will have a very unhappy customer wanting a new engine. Before I get ahead of myself too much, here's what's going on.
BPE 347 dyno'd at Mike Forte's at 439/439.
Currently about 3k miles.
No smoke in the exhaust and no leaks.
I just used a half a quart in 200 miles!!
I called BPE and they gave me the line, well, even OEM engines use oil and anything below 1 quart in 1,000 miles is "normal".
I said I'm using more than that. BPE said, well, wait until it gets to 5,000 miles and see where things are, because the 347 takes longer to break in.
I don't know enough to know if I'm getting smoke blown up my skirt or not.

On to the PCV.

Yesterday I removed the throttle body, to install my turkey pan. Plain as day, the inside of the manifold is wet with oil. Also, the port where the PCV hose is connected has more oil there as well.
There is a baffle, (A plate) in the valve cover so when you look into the open grommet, all you see is the plate. However, oil is obviously getting sucked into the manifold.
It is hard for me to believe THAT MUCH oil is being lost without seeing smoke out the sides.

I've had a poorly baffled PCV valve in the past, and it caused smoke out the pipes.
So I'm looking for suggestions, and/or input please. Do I have a larger issue here? Do I have some other issue that's the root cause of this?


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151832&d=1628454375

Nice looking motor! Any chance one or more of the intake rocker arm studs were installed without sealant? Might be worth pulling one or two to check. Scott

[mburger]

Nice looking motor! Any chance one or more of the intake rocker arm studs were installed without sealant? Might be worth pulling one or two to check. Scott

Thank you!
I guess it’s possible, but I would want something else pointing me to stud sealant. Because I don’t want to risk my warranty, I’d likely call BPE before pulling a stud. But I like what you’re thinking.

[Mag]

Had the same problem with my 427 stroker, although not nearly as bad as yours. Changed the pcv to a fixed orifice type (99 cents at autozone) and installed a Moroso air/oil separator. Problem solved.
The pcv part number is PCV1009DL from autozone and the air/oil separator is a Moroso #85474.

[mburger]

Had the same problem with my 427 stroker, although not nearly as bad as yours. Changed the pcv to a fixed orifice type (99 cents at autozone) and installed a Moroso air/oil separator. Problem solved.
The pcv part number is PCV1009DL from autozone and the air/oil separator is a Moroso #85474.

Thank you! I’m going through the Edelbrock docs to see what they recommend as well.
I’m going to check out your suggestions.

[Tony_G]

Do you have enough clearance between the PCV and the baffle? I have the ME Wagner valve. http://mewagner.com/ They want 3/8" minimum. At first I didn't have that and could fill up my catch can rather quickly. Fixed the clearance and now it's almost nothing in the catch can.

[narly1]

Do you have enough clearance between the PCV and the baffle? I have the ME Wagner valve. http://mewagner.com/

Mark, I was going to suggest a call or visit to ME Wagner's website.

Wondering if your set-up is working too well, meaning that it's pulling excessive vacuum and thus sucking oil as well as vapour.

Earl

[Jeff Kleiner]

Some thoughts...

As a test remove the PCV, plug the hose and simply run with an open breather for a while. After a couple of hundred miles you'll know whether your oil consumption has been reduced which would point to the PCV, or if it remains unchanged indicating that it is not a PCV problem. You said that the inside of the intake is wet which rules out the possibility of it sucking oil through unsealed rocker studs. Likewise a failed intake gasket would not show oil in the intake. Both of these scenarios would draw oil into the port but not through the intake.

Good luck,
Jeff

[Hoooper]

Regardless of the engine condition if you are running a PCV you should run a good separator.

The first 200 miles is too soon to worry about oil consumption on a new engine. During break in you can burn a lot more oil than normal but it should pretty quickly get to a normal low level. Id probably not worry until after 1000 miles, if you are still burning 1/2 quart per 200 miles at that point youve probably got a bigger issue.

[narly1]

Regardless of the engine condition if you are running a PCV you should run a good separator.

I'm curious why you say this given that I don't ever recall seeing one in place from the OEMs on a new car.

Earl

[egchewy79]

just curious, what oil are you using? you'll need to let the piston rings settle in and the oil makes somewhat of a difference in the process.

[narly1]

just curious, what oil are you using? you'll need to let the piston rings settle in and the oil makes somewhat of a difference in the process.

There's no arguing that the potential for increased blow-by exists until the ring to cylinder break-in process is complete.

Earl

[ptstew]

Mark, have you looked at plugs? Are all or some wet? If all may point to PCV, if just some may point to lower intake gasket or valve seal(s).
I had a similar oil consumption issue with my BPE long block installed with 93 Cobra intake. I have a separator but don’t get much oil in it. My plugs all seemed a bit damp, some wetter than others, and the only smoke I ever saw was sometimes when I goosed it from idle. I finally realized that I did not use the correct lower intake gasket for the larger ports of the Cobra intake and decided to change them. I am actually doing that right now. In taking things apart i discovered that the intake gaskets were not only incorrect but installed upside down. There is a “head side” to the gaskets and they were installed with that side facing the intake manifold. So, I have my fingers crossed that my oil consumption problem will be fixed with the correct gaskets correctly installed. I’ll let you know.

[Hoooper]

I'm curious why you say this given that I don't ever recall seeing one in place from the OEMs on a new car.

Earl

Actually many OEMs do have these on new cars. They arent cans though since cans require periodic maintenance to drain. OEMs use separators which drain back to the engine, here are what a couple of them look like. This is more common on newer direct injection engines since the impact of carbon deposits from oil depositing on the valves is way worse on direct injection since the fuel doesnt wash over the valve and clean it off. The reason is that no matter the condition of your engine crankcase vapors will carry oil droplets to your intake through the PCV and deposit those oil vapors as carbon in the cylinders which of course is bad, but also mixes with the fuel mixture dropping the octane of the fuel and potentially causing detonation and just general low performance.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/bluntastic_cronman420/Use%20for%20post_zpsbli60upf.jpeg

https://cdn.rosepassion.com/0pb115099a-p142991-oil-separator-photo-142991-0-web9a110704202cop.jpg?w=1920&h=1080&format=jpg-95

https://www.giuliaforums.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=192 0,fit=scale-down/https://www.giuliaforums.com/attachments/img_0455-jpg.92052/

[mburger]

Just want to say thanks again for everyone's input. Always appreciated.
My engine has about 3,000 miles on it. So I'm well past initial break-in but not quite at the "5,000" mile break-in Blueprint suggested was needed for the 347.
I used Blueprint's break-in oil and then 500 miles I changed it out for Blueprints 10w30.
I have since changed the oil 2 more times using only Blueprint's blue 10w30 oil. (Filter change at all oil changes)
Because the visible oil is in the intake manifold, and the fact I can see additional oil on the vacuum port where the PCV valve connects to the manifold, I'm leaning heavily towards a PCV system issue.
I have not seen any smoke under any throttle conditions and while I strongly suspect the PCV system, it's hard to believe I'm using that much oil without seeing the smoke of it burning off.

This is a picture of the bottom of the Pro Flo 4 throttle body.
The black hose on the right goes to the PCV valve and you can clearly see the oil around this vacuum port. And again, the entire inside surface of the single plane manifold was wet - not running with oil, but wet.
Because of this, I agree with Jeff that an intake gasket or valve seal would not coat the intake the way it is.
Unless I see something different or you all see something I've missed, I'm going down the PCV system rabbit hole. I will check the plugs as it will give me an idea of how it is running generally.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151888&d=1628532677

[mburger]

Tony_G and narly1 - I like that adjustable PCV valve from ME Wagner!

[narly1]

Tony_G and narly1 - I like that adjustable PCV valve from ME Wagner!

They're also a small family run business. If you contact them you will find their support is top notch.

Earl

[GoDadGo]

What about installing one of these filler tubes from Trick Flow if you find that it truly is your P.C.V. valve slurping up the oil:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51400800?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjwpMOIBhBAEiwAy5M6YBBrMpLgz5yD7tBKh6G2-ej9IhDzZlGwnrVnvsvc15vzA9Zeo42wiBoCvY4QAvD_BwE

Add a little inline P.C.V. valve and I bet the oil would stay in the bottom of the filler.

[mburger]

What about installing one of these filler tubes from Trick Flow if you find that it truly is your P.C.V. valve slurping up the oil:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-51400800?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjwpMOIBhBAEiwAy5M6YBBrMpLgz5yD7tBKh6G2-ej9IhDzZlGwnrVnvsvc15vzA9Zeo42wiBoCvY4QAvD_BwE

Add a little inline P.C.V. valve and I bet the oil would stay in the bottom of the filler.

Another good option Steve keeping the PCV valve away from the oil flying about.

[mburger]

Yesterday I took Steve’s advice and put in a filter inline so that I could see any oil in the line. It’s difficult to see but after driving only 6 miles, there’s about a half teaspoon of oil in the filter. The baffle design is obviously not working. I like the idea of the duel circuits in the M/E Wagner PCV valve.
With input from all of you, I’ve decided to try the following.
1. Try a different baffle design. (I watched the baffle video on ME Wagner’s site)
2. Try the Wagner PCV valve.
3. Add the Moroso 85474 Air/Oil Separator.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151987&d=1628649302

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151986&d=1628649302

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151984&d=1628649048

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151983&d=1628649048

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151989&d=1628653443

[CraigS]

On my 408 I made a baffle for the VCs that was full length. I made taller stands for the oil filler caps, and put a baffle in each stand. The stands were at the front and the baffle was open to the engine at the rear and as closed off along the sides as I could get it. I also ran the hoses as high as I could back to a can mounted on the firewall. I did not run a pcv at all. I still had to drain the can occasionally. My point is that if you drive w/ just the slightest bit of spirit, blowby pressurizes the crankcase and will blow oil mist out where ever it can. It can't be stopped, it can only be dealt with as best as possible. As an aside, Lexus came out w/ new engines in 2006. They were the first of the new generation running;
- 11:1 or more compression (=more blowby),
- 0-20 oil (so dang thin),
- and direct injection (port injection uses gas to keep the intake valves clean so now they were getting carbon buildup).
We had a bunch of TSBs to do requiring removing the upper intake manifold. The bottom of that manifold was always super wet w/ oil. One of the TSBs was to replace the valve springs w/ stronger ones because the carbon was holding the intake valves just slightly open on a cold start so the engine rattled for the first 10 seconds. Somewhere around 2009-2010 oil consumption became a known problem. There were a couple of fixes and when I retired in 2012 they had just started doing engine re-rings under warranty. I was happy to get out of there.

[mburger]

That’s very interesting Craig. Thanks for posting that.

[frankb]

Mark:

In you last photo, you show what looks to be a breather cap rather than a PCV valve. This could be you problem! A PCV valve will have a flow limiting orifice in it as well as a check valve to prevent a backfire from reaching the crankcase. If the cap shown in the last photo is indeed just a cap, this is your problem. Replace it with a PCV valve and your problem should go away!

Frank B

[mburger]

Mark:

In you last photo, you show what looks to be a breather cap rather than a PCV valve. This could be you problem! A PCV valve will have a flow limiting orifice in it as well as a check valve to prevent a backfire from reaching the crankcase. If the cap shown in the last photo is indeed just a cap, this is your problem. Replace it with a PCV valve and your problem should go away!

Frank B

Hey Frank. Thanks for that. I am using a PCV valve. Check out this link which I used for illustrative purposes only. I am using the Edelbrock version but this link to Earls has a good image. There really is no difference between what I have and a visible PCV valve stuck in the grommet. This was a very recent change within 100 miles but the problem has been consistent for many thousands. Again thank you!
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-3434114erl?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6s2IBhCnARIsAP8RfAixiGOuvu30tGn7fktc 1VsXtFoxLoqvbg0tdHw2TaLvPcFSf9bCt1AaApt0EALw_wcB

[frankb]

My mistake! Thanks for the correction!

[narly1]

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-3434114erl?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6s2IBhCnARIsAP8RfAixiGOuvu30tGn7fktc 1VsXtFoxLoqvbg0tdHw2TaLvPcFSf9bCt1AaApt0EALw_wcB

Sorry to hijack this thread slightly but wondering what everybody's thoughts are about removing the PCV valve from this type of breather when it's used on the "suck" side of the circuit and when a separate PCV valve is used on the vacuum or "vent" side of the circuit.

I don't see how the valve would work on the input side...if anything it would be blocking the flow of clean air into the circuit.

[GoDadGo]

At a rate of .5 Teaspoons of oil for every 6 miles would equate to 8.33 OZ per 100 miles.
All I can say is that's a lot of oil because 400 miles would equal a quart or 32 OZ.
I can do the math for you'd like, but the good news is you found the issue.

[mburger]

At a rate of .5 Teaspoons of oil for every 6 miles would equate to 8.33 OZ per 100 miles.
All I can say is that's a lot of oil because 400 miles would equal a quart or 32 OZ.
I can do the math for you'd like, but the good news is you found the issue.

I can tell you’re a guy that works with numbers! :)
What’s interesting is that I started this thread saying that I used a half quart in about 200 miles!
While I have visible evidence that oil is being sucked out from the splashing/shooting oil under the valve cover, it is still hard to believe that much oil is passing through the cylinders without making enough smoke for me to see.
My Moroso oil air separator arrives today.

[mburger]

My mistake! Thanks for the correction!

No worries. It’s all good.

[Geoff H]

Very interesting - please keep us updated. I have the same valve covers but have roller rockers/poly locks. I am interested in your new baffle design and any clearance issues.

[OVCobra]

I am using the same valve covers on a 347 (not a Blueprint) and using the ME Wagner PCV...I am having not issues at all. Did not have any issue before installing the ME Wagner PCV but stock PCV and low vacuum (due to cam duration) was causing erratic idle. The ME Wagner PCV addressed it.
I think that Jeff's suggestion of pulling the PCV out of the valve cover (open crankcase) and see how it behaves for a couple hundred miles would be the most effective way to determine the issue without throwing the "parts cannon" at it.
I would start thinking about a leak-down test if it still is using that much oil.

Good luck

[mburger]

I am using the same valve covers on a 347 (not a Blueprint) and using the ME Wagner PCV...I am having not issues at all. Did not have any issue before installing the ME Wagner PCV but stock PCV and low vacuum (due to cam duration) was causing erratic idle. The ME Wagner PCV addressed it.
I think that Jeff's suggestion of pulling the PCV out of the valve cover (open crankcase) and see how it behaves for a couple hundred miles would be the most effective way to determine the issue without throwing the "parts cannon" at it.
I would start thinking about a leak-down test if it still is using that much oil.

Good luck

Yes, as usual, Jeff’s suggestion made sense and was logical. I just need to pick up a breather and then I’ll plug the open vacuum on the throttlebody and swap the PCV for a breather and see how it goes. I actually drive the car a lot so it won’t take long to get some reportable data.

[narly1]

Sorry to hijack this thread slightly but wondering what everybody's thoughts are about removing the PCV valve from this type of breather when it's used on the "suck" side of the circuit and when a separate PCV valve is used on the vacuum or "vent" side of the circuit.

I don't see how the valve would work on the input side...if anything it would be blocking the flow of clean air into the circuit.

Answering my own question, I called M/E Wagner and they say to remove the PCV valve.

[mburger]

Answering my own question, I called M/E Wagner and they say to remove the PCV valve.

Hey narly1.
I'm not sure if "This" type breather is referring to mine, but if it is, this isn't a breather. It is just a PCV valve made to look like a breather.
I have the same exact thing on the left side, but it is a breather. The PCV valve is changeable by removing the expansion "C" clip.
Tonight I am going to switch over to running two breathers, one on each side - no PCV valve and watch for any oil drip/mist etc. from the breathers while I watch the oil consumption.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152022&d=1628788376


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152023&d=1628788389


:D

[narly1]

Yes Mark my "breather" is the same as yours with a PCV valve buried inside it, but from a different company.

And as soon as you take the PCV valve out it becomes only that: a breather.

The reason I went with this style was because of the "spigot" feature which then allows me to run a hose connection to the fresh air source behind the air filter.

Earl

[mburger]

Sounds good Earl. I capped of my manifold vacuum port, pulled the PCV valve out and replaced it with a breather. Topped off the oil and reset the trip odo. I’m itching to put some miles on the car if it ever stops raining here.

[GoDadGo]

Do You Have Any Update Regarding Your Oil Slurping Solution Strategy?

[mburger]

Hey Steve! It’s been raining a bunch here lately when I’ve been able to drive the car, so I don’t have a big enough sample yet. I haven’t been able to put enough miles on it.
Right now, I’ve got a breather in place of the PCV valve and once I put at least a couple hundred miles on it, I won’t be able to make a determination. My expectation is that I won’t be using oil any longer.