Engine problems

[shemp53e]

I’ve been battling my 302 that I rebuilt, yesterday I did an oil change and a couple flecks of brass in the oil. Not great news! It’s the first oil change. So I’m debating let it Roll and see what happens? Look for anew engine short block, or just buy a complete new engine. It’s been a while since I even looked at engines but now I have and to say I have sticker shock is an understatement. Any recommendations? Blue print etc?

[wallace18]

I would cut the oil filter open and inspect it. If a lot of bearing material in it, I would rebuild or replace the engine. I have had good luck with several Blueprint engines. But I also have rebuilt some. Depending on what is damaged on yours you may be better off replacing it. Just my 2 cents worth.

[CaptB]

Engines make metal. You can buy an oil analysis kit and send it in, ALS is a pretty good company and they'll let you know what your metals levels are at each oil change. Good luck.

[NAZ]

If this is the first oil change, cut open the filter and take some photos to share here. It's not unusual to find metal in the oil during break-in and bronze would indicate a distributor gear is wearing in.

If you think the price of crate engines is high, you've been living under a rock. They are a great value when you consider what it takes to build one from scratch. Overhauling an engine is not "building" an engine.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...bronze would indicate a distributor gear is wearing in.



If it's a roller cam it shouldn't be using a bronze gear (and if it is a bronze gear it will be short lived)

Jeff

[NAZ]

If it's a roller cam it shouldn't be using a bronze gear (and if it is a bronze gear it will be short lived)

Jeff

Only if it's a cheaper iron cam. Bronze gears are made for steel cams. https://help.summitracing.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/4904/~/which-distributor-gear-should-i-buy%3F

[shemp53e]

Engines make metal. You can buy an oil analysis kit and send it in, ALS is a pretty good company and they'll let you know what your metals levels are at each oil change. Good luck.

Great idea thanks

[J R Jones]

It looks like you are looking for an excuse to get a new engine. That is premature, you just have an observation and concern, now investigate. The oil filter pleats will likely have debris, how much?
What is the origin and history of the engine? How extensively was it cleaned during rebuild?
What is the oil pump detail? What is the cold and hot pressure, especially at idle.
What kind of valve guides and rocker arms?
Any noises? If you do not have a stethoscope, do you know how to hold a long screwdriver to your ear and probe suspect areas?
Temperatures OK? Oil temp?
How many miles since rebuild and how was it run? Any clutch issues that stressed the thrust bearing?
NAZ is right, crate 302 engine: $6K to $18K, but Summit has the best parts done right in a professional shop with the best tools and techniques.
jim

[NAZ]

So how much metal in the oil is too much? Most see some metal and think all is doom and gloom but that's not necessarily correct. Like Jim said, now is the time to investigate and hopefully find what the likely source is before condemning your engine. I've seen quite a bit of metal in new race engines, determined the source and corrected it, then ran the engine for a couple of seasons before the planned rebuild.

Here's some info that you may find interesting. https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2013-01_how-much-is-too-much.pdf

[ggunter]

Great article NAZ, It's the age old addage of how much is too much. I quite amazed that an aircraft manufacturer would allow the quantities of metal that they do.

[shemp53e]

Great article on engines. I have always changed the oil in all my vehicles, however this is my first engine rebuild. I would check and recheck all clearances and I was pretty confident until this oil change. I did replace the stock TFI distributor with a Davis unified ignition that has a steel gear. The only bearings I didn’t replace were the cam bearings but the machine shop did that.

[J R Jones]

So how much metal in the oil is too much? Most see some metal and think all is doom and gloom but that's not necessarily correct. Like Jim said, now is the time to investigate and hopefully find what the likely source is before condemning your engine. I've seen quite a bit of metal in new race engines, determined the source and corrected it, then ran the engine for a couple of seasons before the planned rebuild.

Here's some info that you may find interesting. https://resources.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2013-01_how-much-is-too-much.pdf

NAZ, Last line: "not likely to issue a service bulletin along these lines due to liability concerns by its legal department" Ohh thank god for the Lawyer/Mechanics!

In the seventies/eighties I did development for Harley Davidson, my first bike was a 77 Cafe Racer with the upside down configuration Sporty......little sand cast aluminum crankcase, big cast iron heads and cylinders. The oil circulated through engine, transmission, chain housing and clutch. It had no oil filter, something this biker dude could not abide. I plumbed a little spin-on Fram into the system which worked OK with the G-rotor two stage pump. Changing it became routine.
A new (AMF) program was launched with Porsche to develop V-2, V-4 and V-6 water cooled engines called Nova. Yes they contained oil filters that were inspected and oil samples analyzed.
Curious about my Cafe engine I sent in a sample and asked the current product guys if they sent samples for evaluation? "We tried that years ago, but the reports come back that the engine is already blown-up."
My 10K engine report was not encouraging either, but it went another 10K before I rebuilt it.

BTW not all oil filters are created equal. I have read critical reviews of Fram and other commodity brands. As you know, they have a proliferation of quality levels and price, and the highest-end options are rated better than cheaper options.
I can't abide that either, Wix has only one quality level that I know of, and it is rated very high. My high-end European cars called for Wix, and their filters were made in Europe. Now I see the production origin is Asia. I am not enthusiastic about that.
China sourcing can succeed but it has to be managed comprehensively. I should look for a review update.
jim

[CaptB]

As a pilot and aircraft maintainer, I can tell you those engines make metal. All the time. The trend analysis we do through oil analysis helps to determine if an engine is headed the wrong way. Sometimes it shows you before sometimes the engine just heads south. For these engines I would cut the filter and look around. If you see something like this then you may have a problem. If not, run it and recheck the oil at the next change.151416

Of course the reason we need a heads up in an aircraft that an engine is heading south is pretty obvious. If an engine quits on us in the air it's a lot different than if an engine quits you on the road.

[NAZ]

Most here probably have never cut open an oil filter or inspected one for indications of a problem. It's common practice in aviation and racing but maybe not so much with most car guys. Now you don't want to just take a hacksaw to the filter as that will ensure you have steel fines in the element. So here's the tool you need to start cutting open your oil filters: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900511 There are others and the cost of these tools can vary but this one from Summit works as good as any I've used. I'm sure you can find a YouTube video showing how to cut open a filter and inspect it. The photo CaptB posted is what a properly cut open filter will look like. Also, after cutting open a variety of brands you will star forming an opinion on what a quality oil filter should look like.