View Full Version : MKIV Roadster + Tree = Bad
Hi All, I'm posting here on behalf of my Dad who is 89 and was able to get through life without ever having to use a computer. :D
He just finished his MKIV Roadster build this past 4th of July. A few short hours later my Son (while we weren't looking) got in, was messing around and shifted it into N (it has an automatic trans). Unfortunately, the e-brake wasn't engaged and it rolled off the driveway and into a tree!! Luckily my Son wasn't hurt, but the car suffered some broken fiberglass and the front wheel broke literally in half around the circumference! Dad was soooo excited to have it done and finally be able drive it and show it off. I felt absolutely gutted that this happened.
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We immediately went to work fixing the body but the Halibrand replica wheels are on backorder and not expected for 6 - 8 weeks. That's starting to put us at the tail end of the roadster "season" here in the Midwest. I started thinking, maybe there is a builder out there who has a 17 x 9 Halibrand but is not yet at the point where they need the wheels that would be willing to "trade" one now for a replacement in 2 months?? I know it's a big ask, but figured I'd give it a shot. We're located in Northern Illinois. Just would love for my old man to be able to enjoy driving it a bit this summer after so much hard work.
Thanks all!
Matt
rthomas98
07-08-2021, 01:48 PM
personally I would just get a set of 4 fr500 wheels from american muscle or LMR you'll have them in a couple of days to drive it around. Then when the halibrand wheels come back you have spares for all four corners in the event of incidents.
egchewy79
07-08-2021, 02:36 PM
bummer man. I'm just glad that everyone is OK. good luck with the repair. I'm surprised that the wheel broke. I would have expected part of the suspension to break before the actual wheel. It must have been rolling pretty good for all that damage to occur.
bummer man. I'm just glad that everyone is OK. good luck with the repair. I'm surprised that the wheel broke. I would have expected part of the suspension to break before the actual wheel. It must have been rolling pretty good for all that damage to occur.
Thank you. I was pretty surprised myself that the wheel split like that. Car was rolling around 5 -10 mph.
personally I would just get a set of 4 fr500 wheels from american muscle or LMR you'll have them in a couple of days to drive it around. Then when the halibrand wheels come back you have spares for all four corners in the event of incidents.
Yea, that's an idea I was contemplating as well. Thanks.
J R Jones
07-08-2021, 04:08 PM
It would be appropriate to indicate what brand these Halibrand Replica wheels are. I for one have apprehension about doing business with them. A pot hole would have more impact than an elm at <5MPH.
I suggest seeking a refund on all four.
jim
Jeff Kleiner
07-08-2021, 05:09 PM
It would be appropriate to indicate what brand these Halibrand Replica wheels are. I for one have apprehension about doing business with them. A pot hole would have more impact than an elm at <5MPH.
I suggest seeking a refund on all four.
jim
The wheels are manufactured for Factory Five using Factory Five owned tooling. They have been being produced for over 10 years and there are literally thousands of them out there. I have not heard of a single failure. It would be interesting to see a photo of the actual rim and the damage.
Jeff
mlewis
07-08-2021, 06:37 PM
total bummer
AC Bill
07-08-2021, 09:39 PM
Come on..tell us the truth..You tromped on the gas, it went snakey, and you hit the tree..Poor kid taking the blame..lol
How fast were you really going?:p
The wheels are manufactured for Factory Five using Factory Five owned tooling. They have been being produced for over 10 years and there are literally thousands of them out there. I have not heard of a single failure. It would be interesting to see a photo of the actual rim and the damage.
Jeff
Here's the wheel with the tire still on, you can see the fracture line that travels the entire circumference of the rim. I'll grab a picture of the rim now that the tire has been removed, so you can clearly see the two separate pieces.
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Looks like the tire/wheel took the brunt of the impact by the way the rim is bent. I doubt tree impact is part of the design criteria of the wheel. I'd be looking closely at the suspension components. That impact had to transfer directly to them. Glad your son is ok although probably a bit traumatized.
I would make a post on the FFR Facebook builder you might find someone with a wheel. There are over 10,000 users on that site.
Sorry that happened to you, glad everyone is okay and hopefully you can get it all fixed up quickly.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ffrbuilder/
mburger
07-09-2021, 03:46 AM
Are these FFR wheels? The casting says made in P.R.C.and I didn’t know the FFR wheels were made in China.
Jeff Kleiner
07-09-2021, 04:54 AM
Are these FFR wheels? The casting says made in P.R.C.and I didn’t know the FFR wheels were made in China.
They are Mark.
Jeff
michael everson
07-09-2021, 05:14 AM
I have a front you can borrow. PM me your info and I will get one out to you.
Mike
egchewy79
07-09-2021, 06:24 AM
On another note, if that's the damage to the body and wheel after a 5-10mph impact with a tree, I'm going to start wrapping my car in bubble wrap. I would not have expected that much damage from such a low impact collision.
mburger
07-09-2021, 07:44 AM
They are Mark.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff!
Learn something every day.
J R Jones
07-09-2021, 08:26 AM
I have seen a failure like this only once before. It was on the back of a Dodge Viper racing SCCA T1 at Road America. That too was a Chinese wheel.
In the interest of failure analysis, if I were FFR, I would call the damaged wheel back and replace this wheel under a customer adjustment policy.
Get on the line Matt.
rich grsc
07-09-2021, 09:11 AM
So FFR is expected to replace parts damaged in an accident??? Don't see the logic in that. When you run your new Mustang into a tree, does Ford give you a new one under warranty?
Well I guess 4 yrs ago when I got rear ended at a stop light, I should have expected FFR send me a new one?
J R Jones
07-09-2021, 10:02 AM
I have done development engineering (and tech service) for major OEMs. They spend a huge amount of money on testing, including destructive testing. Assuming this is less than $100 transfer cost from China, it is one of the cheapest tests FFR will ever run.
Moreover after they analyze the failure, they can be confident (or not) that they will not see this failure in the future.
There are costs to being in business, and this is a small one. What would be the cost of replicating this incident in the development department?
With this wheel as evidence, FFR can discuss the failure with the Chinese vendor. The cost of failures like this are passed on to suppliers, but proof is required.
RoadRacer
07-09-2021, 10:09 AM
If it happened to me, I wouldn't want or expect free replacement from FFR (it hit a tree!), but I'd certainly tell them - I expect they'd want to get it picked up to look at, as JR says.
Jeff Kleiner
07-09-2021, 10:44 AM
I spent 12 years with General Motors in the engineering lab doing destructive testing on the propulsion systems for the M1 Abrams tank and other military vehicles. I can say with a high level of confidence that the failure of both the rim and body occurred because the car crashed into a tree which is not within the parameters of normal operation. ;)
Jeff
Rdone585
07-09-2021, 12:10 PM
I'm just north of you if you want to borrow a set of 17" FR500 wheels, 9" front and 10.5" rear. They currently have DOT track tires mounted that are too used up for the track.
I'm just north of you if you want to borrow a set of 17" FR500 wheels, 9" front and 10.5" rear. They currently have DOT track tires mounted that are too used up for the track.
Thanks for the offer! Mike who posted above had a spare that he shipped out to me so we should be good to go. I do appreciate the support from all the fine people on the FF forum!
I plan to follow up with FFR customer service and see if they'd like the wheel back for any failure analysis. I certainly don't expect any freebies as the root cause wasn't due to "normal use" but I'd like to give them the opportunity to look at and determine if there is any manufacturing issue with the parts.
Matt
I'm not surprised Mike Everson was the guy to have and loan the rim. Mike is loaning me some tires/rims as well. I'm waiting for back ordered rims. Great guy always willing to help. Can't speak highly enough about him.
J R Jones
07-12-2021, 10:23 AM
Matt, Reflecting on this unfortunate incident, I originally evaluated it in terms of a typical road hazard. There are significant differences when you consider force, acceleration, reaction and particularly vectoring.
In a road hazard the impact is on the tire, which deflects, adsorbing energy and transferring energy into the spring/shock absorber. Ultimately the chassis lifts to a point when al the impact amplitude is accommodated.
In your incident the impact was adsorbed by the fender, then the tire deflected, but the spring and shock are on a vertical axis, not the longitudinal travel vector. The steering likely spun right but the upright and control arms took the hit and transferred the energy into the frame. Nothing lifted.
So, the impact force was low, the acceleration was low but without energy adsorption or deflection the damage was significant. The mass involved was not the right front corner, it was the entire car.
Obviously an inspection and alignment are appropriate and you can get ahead of that with a simple measurement. Measure the rear hub center to front hub center both left and right to confirm the wheelbase has not been altered.
If it is not similar you should look for suspension/steering damage and/or frame damage.
This is not good news but it takes some concern off the wheel and puts more concern onto the chassis.
jim
Avalanche325
07-12-2021, 03:14 PM
Do a very close inspection of the suspension and frame pickup points on that side. Check every weld.
Please, everyone, ALWAYS use your parking brake. I saw one Cobra roll away at a hotel and hit a parked car. I also had to personally stop a friends from rolling off of a ferry.
davespencer
07-12-2021, 04:00 PM
Very sorry to see that feel bad for "dad". FYI I Have a brand new MK IV body for sale, my Roadster was hit in the front and I bought a new body from Factory Five and then ended up fixing the original
J R Jones
07-12-2021, 04:18 PM
Avalanche, Ha, been there. I was caravaning a 1928 Studebaker to a club event with the owner driving his 1963 GT hawk. The "28" cooling seemed problematic and I pulled off an X-way ramp. The Hawk pulled up behind to see how I was doing. As I explained I saw the Hawk roll backwards toward the Armco. Sprinting to the Hawk, I got the door open and my foot on the brake just in time. That could have been a regrettable day.
Alan_C
07-15-2021, 10:07 PM
I believe it is the right thing to send the photo of the rim failure to FF. I am going to suggest that there could be a a problem with the metallurgy of the wheel. It is too brittle and possibly a foundry issue. If I were FF I would want to know about such a failure from a liability standpoint. OEM wheels typically bend when they hit a curb or other obstruction, not break apart like that. Yes the damage was the result of the impact, but how the wheel failed is suspicious.
Several years ago, my daughter hit a fire hydrant in my rural neighborhood. The hydrants are mounted on steel pipe that is about 6-8" diameter and the hydrants are designed to break away in this type of impact. The car my daughter was driving was a Chrysler PT Cruiser with chromed alloy wheels. The passenger front tire impacted the steel pipe that the hydrant was mounted to and the wheel shattered. I'd never seen anything like it before. It literally broke into several chunks. The speed of the impact was 25-30 mph, likely much more force than the case of the tree impact in this thread.
Hi All,
Again, thanks for all the support and advice. We were able to repair the damaged fiberglass, get the car back to the painter and returned in less than a month! Thanks to Mike Everson for providing a wheel. Here's the finished product at a local car show last weekend:
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A couple pics of the body repair process below:
First we got the broken out piece back into position, then laid up fiberglass underneath to hold it in place
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Scarfed the joint for the fiberglass layup repair and ground back any spots where there was delamination.
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Completed fiberglass layup
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From there is was filler, sanding and repaint.
David Hodgkins
08-10-2021, 12:23 PM
Wow, that was fast! Looks Great! No stress on the chassis? Did you do a new alignment?
:)
NiceGuyEddie
08-10-2021, 12:44 PM
God bless your dad who is 89 and still at it!!!
Blitzboy54
08-10-2021, 01:05 PM
God bless your dad who is 89 and still at it!!!
I second this
Hi All,
Again, thanks for all the support and advice. We were able to repair the damaged fiberglass, get the car back to the painter and returned in less than a month! Thanks to Mike Everson for providing a wheel. Here's the finished product at a local car show last weekend:
151945
A couple pics of the body repair process below:
First we got the broken out piece back into position, then laid up fiberglass underneath to hold it in place
151941
Scarfed the joint for the fiberglass layup repair and ground back any spots where there was delamination.
151942
Completed fiberglass layup
151943
151944
From there is was filler, sanding and repaint.
Wow! That was a fast come back. The car looks great and I'm glad you were able to repair it. Just something for you to look at based on your picture of the car at the car show. The pipes look like they've seen a lot of heat, way more than normal. You may need to advance your timing a bit.
Dave
He did take it in for another alignment. It was slightly off but they couldn't find anything that looked bent or broken and they were able to get it back where it needed to be.
Wow! That was a fast come back. The car looks great and I'm glad you were able to repair it. Just something for you to look at based on your picture of the car at the car show. The pipes look like they've seen a lot of heat, way more than normal. You may need to advance your timing a bit.
Dave
Thanks for the tip on the pipes Dave! I'll bring that to his attention.