Coyote gen 3 no start

[cfriedman67]

I am running a coyote gen 3 TKO 600. To preface I originally had an old 1997 mustang DOHC 4.6 mustang hooked up to it that ran. Fast forward. When I turn the key one click to the right the engine makes noice/clicks so I believe it has power. All the gauges turn on and cycle as well. When I turn the key all the way to the right the starter does not turn over. Any thoughts on where to start looking?

Thanks
Craig

[Rsnake]

Clutch safety switch maybe?

[Al_C]

check your pigtail connections: starter motor request and ignition relay. mine are integrated with RF wires and those connections were critical. this could possibly be your issue. the other one to check is that your starter is working. hope this helps.

[cfriedman67]

Quick question regarding the clutch safety switch. In my old set up I had a safety switch attached to the clutch pedal, different than the coyote switch. I have two plugs going to the TKO 600 picture attached. I’m assuming both of those still get used with the coyote?150374

[Tbev]

Any chance it could be the battery? If it's the same battery that you had with the previous engine then maybe it's time to replace it. Sometimes the simplest solution is the one that works.

[cfriedman67]

I’m getting thirteen volts on the gauge. Also, I hear the electronics of the engine turn on.

[Mike Garrett]

Just my two cents worth but I would say clutch safety switch. On my gen 3 5.0 with the same transmission I did not use any wires to the transmission.

[Al_C]

Quick question regarding the clutch safety switch. In my old set up I had a safety switch attached to the clutch pedal, different than the coyote switch. I have two plugs going to the TKO 600 picture attached. I’m assuming both of those still get used with the coyote?150374

Assuming you have the Ford controls pack, the clutch switch is a take out on the wire harness. It's labeled in your instructions. Again, that assumes you have the controls pack AND the instructions... If it's an early Gen 2, you have two clutch switches. I believe the later (2017) Gen 2 and the Gen 3 have only one clutch switch. No connection to the transmission. Only the controls pack to the pedal.

[cfriedman67]

I’m now getting the engine to crank but still does not sound correct. I’m questioning the starter wiring? In the directions(attached) it’s says “from the other inline fuse stud run a battery cable to the starter battery cable? I’m assuming that cable goes to the big stud with the four other wires attached to it? 150381

[edwardb]

I’m now getting the engine to crank but still does not sound correct. I’m questioning the starter wiring? In the directions(attached) it’s says “from the other inline fuse stud run a battery cable to the starter battery cable? I’m assuming that cable goes to the big stud with the four other wires attached to it? 150381

Note quite understanding this question. It's really quite straightforward to get the Coyote hooked up and running. Highly recommend the Ford Performance instructions along with the Factory Five instructions. The Ford instructions are somewhat generic but are IMO a little more clear explaining how to hook things up. Just to confirm, I'll give a summary. Assuming you have the Coyote control pack components and harness installed and plugged together. The following connections should make it run:

+12v direct connection from the battery to the large lug on the starter (same as any other installation)
+12v to the large lug on the front of the Coyote PDB. Can be from any good battery source, or even direct from the battery. I wire mine from the master disconnect. But that's a bit off topic.
Coyote starter wire to the small lug on the starter
Coyote fan wire to the positive terminal on the radiator cooling fan
Coyote fuel pump wire into the Ron Francis fuel pump circuit per the Factory Five instructions
Coyote bottom clutch switch installed and connected to the Coyote harness. Note this installation does not use the Ron Francis clutch safety switch circuit and does not involve your transmission as others stated.
Coyote Ignition Relay Trigger (light green) to a +12v source in the Ron Francis harness. RF harness Orange EFI/Coil wire is the one most commonly used. Must have +12v any time the key is on for the engine to start and run.
Coyote Starter Motor Request (SMR) (light blue) to a +12 source in the Ron Francis harness when the key is in the start position. RF harness Blue EFI Crank Power wire is the one most commonly used. Note this is the one that comes directly off the ignition switch start terminal. Not the blue wire that goes through the clutch safety switch, which is not used as mentioned previously.
Coyote ground to a solid ground source. Several no-starts on the forum recently have been due to poor grounds. Also confirm you have at least one ground from the engine block to the chassis. I normally use two. One from the block and one from one of the starter bolts.

That's it. With those connections confirmed, your engine should start. When you first turn the key on, you should hear the fuel pump run briefly then shut off. If not, something is wrong. You also may hear something from the engine, which is likely the throttle body initializing. With the clutch pushed down (e.g. Coyote clutch switch closed) turning the key to start should crank the engine. First start may take a little extra cranking to fill the fuel lines. But after that should start almost immediately. Good luck.

[cfriedman67]

Thanks. I do have all the instructions and will recheck everything. I don’t here the fuel pump when I turn the key on so I will start there.

[Jryasko]

Gen 3 Coyote is tricky in the fuel pump part. If you just turn the key on, it only powers up the fuel pump for a couple of seconds. You can't even see it with a multimeter, so don't expect to hear the fuel pump. It has to crank and see the engine start. If this is the initial start of the engine, it will crank abit prior to starting to fill all the fuel manifolds and purge the air. 1 other item if you crank too long the engine is smarter than we are and will cut off the starter to protect it. Wait about 15 min and it will go again. Like others mention " ask me how I know " . Ha Ha

[edwardb]

...it only powers up the fuel pump for a couple of seconds. You can't even see it with a multimeter, so don't expect to hear the fuel pump..."

You must have a very quiet fuel pump. ;) I've had a Coyote in a Roadster and a Coupe. Both with in-tank fuel pumps. Although the run is brief (which I also mentioned) I can definitely hear it. If you have a regulator with a gauge, you can also see the needle jump up to the set pressure.

To the OP -- one other thing I thought of. What about your inertia switch? Have it wired in and the button pushed down?

[Jones375]

I couldn’t hear my fuel pump or get a reading with a voltmeter when I turned the key on. I thought I had an issue with the green Coyote wire. I ran a hot wire to the RF fuse block where I connected the green wire, and the pump worked and I was able to set fuel pressure. After over thinking for a long time, I just tried to start the engine. Once it cranked, the fuel pressure went up and it eventually started.

Now I still don’t hear the pump, but since there is only about two gallons of gas in the tank, I can hear fuel splashing from the return.

[cfriedman67]

Thanks everyone. It turned out to be not enough grounds or grounds poorly executed by me. My next issue (hopefully the last) oil pressure, temp, and rpm gauges not working. I let the engine run for three or four minutes and the temp gauge did not move so I’m assuming it’s not working. I followed the factory five instruction for the temp and oil and RPM. All these gauges worked on my previous engine. I will go back and double check my work.

[edwardb]

Thanks everyone. It turned out to be not enough grounds or grounds poorly executed by me. My next issue (hopefully the last) oil pressure, temp, and rpm gauges not working. I let the engine run for three or four minutes and the temp gauge did not move so I’m assuming it’s not working. I followed the factory five instruction for the temp and oil and RPM. All these gauges worked on my previous engine. I will go back and double check my work.

Good news. You're not alone with that failure mode. It's interesting to me that in the Ford Performance Gen 2 control pack they included long large gauge (4 AWG) power and ground cables and the instructions specifically emphasized home running them directly to the battery. Which I did. For the Gen 3 control pack, they no longer include the large/long power and ground cables or terminals. Instructions say "purchased separately." Nice. The Factory Five Gen 3 instructions say route the positive to the battery but also give alternates. There's no mention of a ground to the battery. While it's possible with the all steel chassis to get a good ground away from the battery (and many do), I suspect the number of ground issues reported recently for the Gen 3 are related to the somewhat confusing instructions and lack of parts provided. For my Gen 3 build, I wired it the same as my Gen 2 build. Positive off the master disconnect which was directly from the battery. And a ground wire to the location where the battery ground cable was bolted to the frame.

Since all of your gauges aren't working, I'd suspect something in your gauge wiring in the dash. The oil and water temp setup is very typical. Not specific to the Coyote. The tach is too. Once you break into one of the COP control wires. Or maybe have you checked the fuse? They're all together there too.

[cfriedman67]

After further inspection here is where I am. When I turn the key all the way to the left all the gauges momentarily move. So I do have power to the gauges. Attached is a one of the bundles from the Ron Francis harness. It has purple coil and tach, light blue oil temp, dark blue water temp, grey oil pressure, tan electric choke, green fan thermo. As you can see there are only two wires coming out the other end. The purple is spliced into one of the wires on the coil plug. Should the other wires be hooked into power or something else? I’m a little confused as you might be able to tell. This was originally wired by someone else.

[edwardb]

After further inspection here is where I am. When I turn the key all the way to the left all the gauges momentarily move. So I do have power to the gauges. Attached is a one of the bundles from the Ron Francis harness. It has purple coil and tach, light blue oil temp, dark blue water temp, grey oil pressure, tan electric choke, green fan thermo. As you can see there are only two wires coming out the other end. The purple is spliced into one of the wires on the coil plug. Should the other wires be hooked into power or something else? I’m a little confused as you might be able to tell. This was originally wired by someone else.

No attachment, but doesn't matter to give a response. The wires your describing all go into the engine compartment (as needed) but don't have anything to do with powering the gauges. The gauges get their power from a separate source. In the dash harness, it's the BRN-GAUGE FEED wire. Speedhut gauges (if that's what you have) daisy chain all the gauges together. So it's a single connection to the gauge power wire. Along with a ground of course. You need to dig into how they're connected.

By "turn the key all the way to the left" to you mean to the ACC position? The gauges swing (normal at power-up) but then don't work when the key is returned to run? That right there is a clue something may be wired wrong. In the RF harness the BRN-GAUGE FEED wire is from the ACC FED portion of the fuse panel. You can see it by looking at the diagram. You'll notice wipers and heater are in the same portion. So the fact that your gauges only work in ACC and nowhere else means something is wired wrong. What about wipers and heater circuits? Do they also only work in the ACC (left) position?

[cfriedman67]

Yes speed hut vintage gauges from factory five. Also Russ Thomson turn signal. Put key in ignition and turn to the left, gauges all swing all power up. Turn back to the right all the way and the car starts and runs. There are two brown wires in the fuse panel under ACC FED. One runs from the back of the fuse panel to dash harness. The other runs from the back of the fuse panel to keyed power. Is that correct? Volt gauge works when car is running. Oil pressure still reads zero and temp still doesn’t move. How long before the temp gauge should move? Also replaced the fuse just in case.

Thanks

[edwardb]

Yes speed hut vintage gauges from factory five. Also Russ Thomson turn signal. Put key in ignition and turn to the left, gauges all swing all power up. Turn back to the right all the way and the car starts and runs. There are two brown wires in the fuse panel under ACC FED. One runs from the back of the fuse panel to dash harness. The other runs from the back of the fuse panel to keyed power. Is that correct? Volt gauge works when car is running. Oil pressure still reads zero and temp still doesn’t move. How long before the temp gauge should move? Also replaced the fuse just in case.

Thanks

My apologies for my last post. I totally brain cramped and mixed left and right. You had to have noticed so thanks for not pointing it out. I fixed it and it still possibly indicates something isn't wired right. Turning the ignition key to the left from off of course is the accessory (ACC) position. Since the gauges are wired in the ACC FED portion of the RF panel, they should work in that position and yours correctly do. But moving one click to the right from off is the run position, and they should work there too since in the run position both ACC FED and IGN FED portions of the RF panel are powered. (The BATT FED position is powered at all times regardless of ignition switch position.) When moving the key one more time to the start position (all the way to the right) the ACC FED portion is turned off to provide maximum current to the starter. So your gauges would shut off. But then turn back on when the engine starts and the key is returned to run. It's possible your ignition switch is wired wrong if it doesn't work this way. There have also been instances of a defective ignition switch. But I wouldn't pursue that yet without more troubleshooting.

There are two brown wires in the RF harness at the ignition switch in the ACC terminal position. One is the actual power feed to the ACC PED portion of the panel. The other is an exciter wire for the alternator which is routed to the alternator along with the large red charging wire. Your Coyote alternator doesn't need the exciter wire. You can remove it completely or just tie it off. But it doesn't have any effect on your gauges.

The other brown wire coming out of the RF panel and going into the dash harness is the gauge power wire I mentioned previously. Here you just need to confirm it's attached to the daisy chain power input for your gauges. Since your voltage gauge is working, maybe it is wired correctly. But it's something to check. You said before the oil pressure, temp, and tach weren't working. Now you didn't mention that tach. So it's working?

For the water temp, it takes a while. The location used for the sensor is an existing port in the cooling system that's optionally used by Ford for a block heater. There's very little coolant flow in that location until the thermostat opens. So the water temp reading won't show much activity until then. You can monitor the temp of the engine by feeling the bottom radiator hose. As long as it's relatively cool to the touch, the thermostat is still closed. Once it does open, you'll feel it and the gauge should show it. A stock Coyote has a 190 degree thermostat, so it can take some minutes especially at idle to reach that temp.

[cfriedman67]

Thanks for all the help so far. Sorry, the tach still doesn’t work. I didn’t mention the clock, not sure it matters but it works. I opened up the rest of the wire covering and here’s what I see. One brown wire is coming out of the fuse panel and it makes its way over to keyed power. The other one is coming out of the fuse panel and into the dash harness150512 connector.(picture attached) Coming out the other side of the wire connector is now two brown wires. The one that does not say Gauge Feed runs to the daisy chain. The one that says Gauge Feed is electrical taped and tied off. Is my problem that I have the wrong brown wire running to the daisy chain?

I also wanted to mention the gauges power on also when turning one click to the right as you mentioned or asked in previous post.

[edwardb]

Thanks for all the help so far. Sorry, the tach still doesn’t work. I didn’t mention the clock, not sure it matters but it works. I opened up the rest of the wire covering and here’s what I see. One brown wire is coming out of the fuse panel and it makes its way over to keyed power. The other one is coming out of the fuse panel and into the dash harness150512 connector.(picture attached) Coming out the other side of the wire connector is now two brown wires. The one that does not say Gauge Feed runs to the daisy chain. The one that says Gauge Feed is electrical taped and tied off. Is my problem that I have the wrong brown wire running to the daisy chain?

I also wanted to mention the gauges power on also when turning one click to the right as you mentioned or asked in previous post.

OK, talking about the dash harness connector not the ignition switch as my responses described. Sorry for the misunderstanding. None of my RF schematics (I have several) show two brown wires coming out of the dash connector and into the dash harness. Assuming both wires are coming out of the same cavity on the connector and tied to the same input wire, either should power the gauges fine. Based on your posts, you have gauge power one click to the left (accessory) and gauge power one click to the right (run). So I don't think gauge power is the issue. They would seem to be powered. Now just need to approach them one at a time. Voltage gauge works. Check. Clock works, check. But that's on a separate always on circuit. Or at least it should be. Tach, have you calibrated it to your Coyote? Has to be on the 1/2 Pulses / rev. setting (500 rpm when in calibration mode). Water temp check it as I described before. Oil pressure? Not sure. The older large style Speedhut sensors have been trouble prone. But I'd troubleshoot the wiring before throwing parts at it.

[cfriedman67]

Progress. Tach works, it needed to be recalibrated. Sorry about that one. Temp works as well. It took close to five minutes for the temp gauge to move. What’s interesting is the temp gauge is in Celsius. I can’t believe I never noticed that. Last, oil pressure. I folded the factory five directions. I want to confirm I don’t need this part?150529. After reading some old threads of yours it looks like it’s is needed.

[edwardb]

Progress. Tach works, it needed to be recalibrated. Sorry about that one. Temp works as well. It took close to five minutes for the temp gauge to move. What’s interesting is the temp gauge is in Celsius. I can’t believe I never noticed that. Last, oil pressure. I folded the factory five directions. I want to confirm I don’t need this part?150529. After reading some old threads of yours it looks like it’s is needed.

That doesn't look like the Speedhut oil pressure sending unit. You have to use the one included with the gauges. For the Gen 3 Coyote, you have to use both the original Ford sending unit and the Speedhut provided one. Several of us have come up with ways to plumb the two together. I understand Factory Five has something they've made up as well. How do you have them hooked up now? What do you have the Speedhut oil pressure wires connected to now?

Note the engine will run without either connected. But it's risky obviously. Without the Ford sending unit, you'll get error codes (DTC's) sent to the PCM and potentially the engine will go into limp mode. Without the Speedhut one you won't get any indication on your gauge. That along with water temp are probably the two most important gauges to keep an eye on.

[cfriedman67]

It is a speed hut resistive pressure unit(G-SNDR-09) Resistive Pressure Sensor - 100 psi, 240-33 Ohms (Speedhut Line) assuming that is correct? Attached is my current set up with a picture from the factory five instructions which I followed. In the picture it does not show the sending unit so I did not use it. After posting my last post I found a thread were you talking about using it and how you set it up. I will need to a get another 45 elbow as the one I have is to long. Can you use a 90 degree? Does it matter. Also, I had the speed hut sending wires attached to the T piece in the middle which is obviously incorrect. 150545150544150546150545150544150546

[edwardb]

OK, I'm not completely following what you installed or wired to. But we're on the right path. First, it's mandatory that you use the sending unit that came with your gauges. Is the sending you posted a picture of in post #23 what came with your gauges from Speedhut? I said before it didn't look like the Speedhut gauge because the terminals were different than what I've seen before. But upon further review looking at the G-SNDR-09 on their website, maybe they changed the design and you have the right one. If so, then yes you need that in the "T" fitting along with the original Ford sending unit in the other side. You could use whatever angle adapter that fits. That's worked for me. So far. Some would recommend not hanging that big sensor on there. But instead using a piece of flex line and remote mounting it. That's another option.

I don't know the age of your kit or your gauge package. Since you said you didn't do the original wiring maybe it's a few years old? It's confusing -- somewhat recently Speedhut changed the oil pressure gauge setup to use a powered sending unit (3-wire) versus the 2-wire resistive style it looks like you have. The new sending unit is much smaller and looks like that's what they have pictured in the instructions you showed. Either way it's the same though. Use the sending unit that came with your gauges and route the wires from your gauge to it. Also provide a connection for the stock Ford sending unit. Unique to the Gen 3. Wasn't the case for the previous Coyote versions.

[cfriedman67]

The kit was ordered 7/2/2016. My original speed hut sending unit stop working on previous 1997 mustang cobra engine. The picture In post 23 is what they sent me to replace it. I will install it and hopefully that will be it. I am using Lund to tune the engine. Does it matter if the oil pressure gauge is not working for the tune? I can’t thank you and the forum enough. I would not have figured this out in such a short amount of time.

[edwardb]

The kit was ordered 7/2/2016. My original speed hut sending unit stop working on previous 1997 mustang cobra engine. The picture In post 23 is what they sent me to replace it. I will install it and hopefully that will be it. I am using Lund to tune the engine. Does it matter if the oil pressure gauge is not working for the tune? I can’t thank you and the forum enough. I would not have figured this out in such a short amount of time.

Yeah then that's the sending unit you need to install. Still not sure what you tried to do before. But that's what you need to get your oil pressure gauge working.

I can only give you mostly opinion about the Lund question. Since I know from personal experience with the Gen 3 it will throw error codes without the stock sending unit in place, at a minimum is would seem you need that installed so Lund isn't running into those codes and whatever other steps Ford may have programmed in without an oil pressure reading. I also used Lund for my Gen 3 just over a year ago. I just looked at the data logs and oil pressure isn't one of the attributes logged. Whatever that might mean. In theory you could remove the adapter(s) you have in place, replace the Ford sending unit, plug in the factory connector, and they could do the custom tune normally. But personally I wouldn't be too comfortable not having a dash gauge showing oil pressure. While the risk is low, the consequences of low or no oil pressure are very severe to say the least. But that's just me.

[cfriedman67]

Coming out of the T iIhad the oil pressure sending wires minus the speed hut unit. I used one of the temperature sending units as shown in the factory five pictures, obviously a mistake. It is wired correctly now but still no oil prsssure reading. I let the car idle until the fan came on and temp came up to about 160 degrees. I assume the oil pressure reading should show by then? Is it instantaneous? My last engine the oil pressure gauge stopped reading, hence I purchased a new speed hut unit talked about in post 25. It it possible it is a bad sending unit wire or gauge? I’m at the point where I feel I should order all three parts new and go from there. Any other suggestions? As always appreciate the help.

Craig

[edwardb]

Coming out of the T iIhad the oil pressure sending wires minus the speed hut unit. I used one of the temperature sending units as shown in the factory five pictures, obviously a mistake. It is wired correctly now but still no oil prsssure reading. I let the car idle until the fan came on and temp came up to about 160 degrees. I assume the oil pressure reading should show by then? Is it instantaneous? My last engine the oil pressure gauge stopped reading, hence I purchased a new speed hut unit talked about in post 25. It it possible it is a bad sending unit wire or gauge? I’m at the point where I feel I should order all three parts new and go from there. Any other suggestions? As always appreciate the help.

Craig

Oil pressure reading is instantaneous when the engine starts and continuously afterwards. You really notice it in the Coyote because it's high (swings 100 psi + when starting) and moves quite a lot during operation. Anything's possible, but gauge itself being bad is the last thing I would expect. Those sending units have a checkered quality reputation. I'd start there. That and confirm you have it wired correctly. That's a 2-wire sensor and requires signal and ground. On the right terminals. Polarity is important.

[Alan_C]

You can contact Speedhut and they will give you troubleshooting info. The sending unit gauge will have a resistance range you can check with a ohmmeter. The gauge can be checked by placing a resistor of the correct value across the inputs of the gauge to get a "known" reading. Typically Speedhut wants you to isolate the problem to the sending unit or gauge before sending you a replacement sender or making arrangements for you to return the gauge. My gauge set was received in 2011 and I have a bad oil pressure sender and water gauge. I believe their quality has improved since then, but stuff happens.
Later I found myself getting frustrated with the speedo too. I could not get it dialed into an accurate calibration. Then I found after turning the key one morning, the odometer started counting at a high pace. By the time I removed power, the odometer had over 7000 miles shown. I sent the speedo back and had the GPS conversion done. Something you might want to consider if not already GPS.

[cfriedman67]

Finally got everything working. last thing was a crossed wire coming from the gauge to sending unit. Thanks to everyone for helping out.

[edwardb]

Finally got everything working. last thing was a crossed wire coming from the gauge to sending unit. Thanks to everyone for helping out.

Woo-hoo! Glad it's all working.

[toadster]

just checking - the new sensor that FFR provides negates the need for the G-SNDR-09 sensor, correct?

[i.e.427]

I'm going to suggest that anyone using a modern engine; Ford Mod (Coyote), GM LS platform or Chrysler Gen 3 Hemi to get a code reader with live data. I use this one and was able to do start up on a previous project without even having the dash complete. Comes in really handy when you want to verify gauge readings as well. If I remember right it even reads fuel pressure for a Coyote.

https://us.bluedriver.com/pages/bluedriver

Glad you got it figured out and are working through the last details.