View Full Version : First start worked ... kinda. Suggestions?
Excited to finally turn the engine over for the first time today. Got the engine going for 30 seconds then it stalled. Such a bitter sweet moment! Any suggestions on where to start diagnosing the issue would be greatly welcomed.
Notes:
Engine is a 427 (351w) EFI from blueprint with a TKO 600
Fuel pump is external
Start up:
Performed the recommended pre-start checklist from blueprint such as removing fuel pump power and spark plugs in order to turn the engine over with just the starter. Then I connected everything back together and filled the tank with 2.5 gallons of fuel. When I turn the ignition key to 'on' I hear the fuel pump run for 3-5 seconds then stops. I assume (probably incorrectly) that this is fine. When I turn the ignition key to 'start' the engine starts right up but after 15 seconds you can hear the engine starting to stall and eventually stalled out 30 seconds in. I thought about giving it some gas, but thought against it as I assume the Holly Sniper was doing it's thing. Probably wrong again. After waiting 20 mins I tried a second time and it died much quicker.
I think the problem is the fuel pump isn't running constantly.
Any suggestions?
NYMike
06-17-2021, 08:53 PM
Don't have much experience with the Sniper, but we just went through some similar sounding issues with our first start. The pump behavior seems normal. It should run for the 3-5 seconds and then shut off when you just turn the key to on and leave it there before start. Thats the pump prime that the sniper is programmed to do. you should also hear the injectors pulse once in the middle of that. If you take the air cleaner off and look down the intake during the prime, you should be able to see the shot of fuel when it pulses. if not, you may not have enough gas in the tank. We also had to turn the idle screw in more than I expected to get it to run initially before it hit operating temperature and started learning. It was at least 2 turns at first. Then we were able to adjust it back down to the target idle once it was warm. Our big issue (probably not yours though) turned out to be a bad connection to the coil (-) stud so the ecu wasnt getting a good engine rpm signal. It would run and then suddenly just stumble and die. We could see that by watching the readouts on the sniper display. Hope some of that helps.
Thanks for the info. I just checked the vac advance and it was pretty much disconnected. I plugged it back in but can't start given the time of day it is. First thing in the morning I'm gonna test this out! Then I'll move on to the idle screw.
rich grsc
06-18-2021, 07:18 AM
Not enough fuel in the tank, cycle the switch several times to fully prime the fuel lines. You'll need to feather the throttle to keep it running.
Update: I added another gallon of fuel (up to ~3.5 total) and adjusted the vac advance tube. I turned the engine on for a third time and found I have to constantly give it a tiny bit of gas or the car begins to stall. I'll try again after I adjust the idle screw.
Another problems came up though. After about a minute of running the engine I noticed coolant literally squirting up out of the tiny vent hole on coolant overflow lid. I turned off the engine and noticed a few cups of coolant came out of the bottom of the overflow tank as the tank was completely full. Given I had to stay in the car to constantly give the engine gas I didn't notice if the fan kicks in.
Suggestions?
cv2065
06-18-2021, 08:38 PM
Have you reached out to BP? They are pretty good at diagnosing issues with their engines.
I reached out to BP and got response on how to fix a carbureted engine, which I don't have. Their responses to my emails have been more miss than hit lately. I'm probably one of the few who isn't having the best of time with BP. I'm still waiting to hear from them and will probably reach out directly to Johnny by Monday if nothing comes from BP.
Did you go through the Sniper setup wizard to double check all the settings? Next, be sure you have a good ground on the engine to the chassis. What fuel pump setup do you have and how is it wired and plumbed? Is your battery fully charged? Can you describe how you connected the Sniper to your car's wiring? It takes three elements to make an engine run:
1. Fuel
2. Air
3. Spark
Remember, BPE ran your engine on a dyno stand. After you install the engine in your car, there are several variables to consider that include electrical connections, throttle linkage connections, fuel system configuration, etc.
bingo2
06-19-2021, 09:17 AM
The pink wire in the main harness requires +12V at the ignition turn-on position and while cranking. It is simply a turn-on trigger for the system and only draws about 250mA. If the system only has +12V at turn-on it will only provide the prime shot and the fuel pump will not continue to run and provide cranking and running fuel.
Just checked the ground and it's on bare metal (so good), fuel pump and plumbing looks good (I am using the fuel pump provided by BP which is external - the pump is also positioned correctly and low), battery is new and on a tender so it's fully charged.
What I did not do is check the Sniper setup wizard as the BP FAQ says not to mess with that. BUT, I'll get in contact with BP and run through the wizard to ensure that's all setup correctly. I'm not sure what the settings should be set at.
I also think I need to adjust the throttle idle screw to run at ~2k until the Sniper begins to learn. I'll confirm with BP before committing.
Thanks guys!
Just checked the ground and it's on bare metal (so good), fuel pump and plumbing looks good (I am using the fuel pump provided by BP which is external - the pump is also positioned correctly and low), battery is new and on a tender so it's fully charged.
What I did not do is check the Sniper setup wizard as the BP FAQ says not to mess with that. BUT, I'll get in contact with BP and run through the wizard to ensure that's all setup correctly. I'm not sure what the settings should be set at.
I also think I need to adjust the throttle idle screw to run at ~2k until the Sniper begins to learn. I'll confirm with BP before committing.
Thanks guys!
You don't want to just turn the adjustment screw on the Sniper. That's tied to the IAC and needs to be adjusted while monitoring IAC on the handheld to get to your target idle RPM. I recommend setting to around 900 RPM. You also need to do this only after the engine is operating with the coolant temp above 160 degrees. The fan will trigger at the temp selected in the Sniper. I also recommend saving the base tune that came with the setup from BPE before you start making any adjustments. It takes just a few seconds to save the tune from the ECU to the memory card in the handheld. Name it something that you'll know what it is later. You also want to check the TPS at closed and WOT. This may need calibration depending on your throttle cable installation and adjustment.
Did you connect the power and ground wires directly to your battery or in some other way? Did BPE de-pin the Sniper harness for the unused wires? What ignition setup do you have? Are you running a return line or did you do a returnless setup on your fuel lines? What is your fuel pressure when it starts and does it maintain ~60psi?
Sorry for all the questions, but like I said -- lots of variables to consider.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5Wz_RoXVSI
Dave
Yep, not adjusting the idle screw until BP tells me to.
Power for the sniper is directly to the battery. BP didn't de-pin the unused, but I did. The ignition setup is FFR supplied. Fuel does have a return line and it's setup per BP specs. I'm also not using the inertia switch. Fuel pressure is just north of 60.
AC Bill
06-19-2021, 01:27 PM
Update: Another problems came up though. After about a minute of running the engine I noticed coolant literally squirting up out of the tiny vent hole on coolant overflow lid. I turned off the engine and noticed a few cups of coolant came out of the bottom of the overflow tank as the tank was completely full. Given I had to stay in the car to constantly give the engine gas I didn't notice if the fan kicks in. Suggestions?
I doubt if the cooling fan would kick in after just a minute of running. Your thermostat probably hadn't even opened yet. It will take several minutes sitting at idle, before it warms up to operating temps. Longer still before the fan kicks in. Keep an eye on your temp gauge, to make sure it kicks in when expected, and doesn't start to get too hot.
Is your overflow tank hose connected to a filler T on the upper rad hose? Or, is it run off a spigot near the radiator's rad cap? (no idea what rad your using, I know some rads don't even have a cap any longer) Presumably your using a 15-16lb pressure cap? That should prevent any coolant from the system flowing to the overflow tank, and causing it to overfill, especially when the engine is still cold. Check that your cap pressure spring is functioning, by pushing it with your fingers. It should move up and down pretty easily.
How large a capacity is your overflow tank? Perhaps just pressure from the water pump spinning, moved some excess coolant, or allowed some air trapped in the system to move causing coolant to spew. Some overflow tanks are pretty small, and if there was some coolant in it already, (as there should have been), it may have been overwhelmed.
For the first time warming the engine up to temp, I would leave the T filler cap off, so any trapped air can burp out. You should be able to clearly see when the T-stat opens, which will allow any air in the block to burp as well. Also, open your heater core valve, (if you have a heater), so air can escape from it as well. Just keep an eye on your coolant level, adding any if it drops down. Once there is no more air bubbles, stick the cap back on, (before shutting the engine down). Make sure your overflow tank has adequate coolant in it before shutting down, so the rad vacuum as the engine cools, sucks back coolant, and not air. After it has completely cooled, pull your cap and check the coolant level.
HTH..
RBachman
06-19-2021, 01:48 PM
Sounds like the Sniper is getting a good prime, running on that for a bit and running dry. It's very similar to the Sniper not getting a clear RPM signal. A number of things can happen IF this is the case. The Sniper shuts down and turns off the pump when it thinks the engine isn't running, if the Sniper is controlling the fan, it may not turn the fan on under a "no rpm" condition, ECM gets angry and quits, you'll lose hair and get frustrated.....(There's a support group on FaceBook) but when you get it going it's great!
Edited to add. Double and triple check your Sniper connections with the Sniper manual in detail, especially all things having to do with RPM and coil connections.
Yep, not adjusting the idle screw until BP tells me to.
Power for the sniper is directly to the battery. BP didn't de-pin the unused, but I did. The ignition setup is FFR supplied. Fuel does have a return line and it's setup per BP specs. I'm also not using the inertia switch. Fuel pressure is just north of 60.
I was asking about the distributor/coil/ignition setup that BPE would have provided. Mine is a standard coil, but I wasn't sure if BPE is using any of the more advanced setups now that let the Sniper control the timing.
I agree it sounds like your fuel pump is priming and delivering fuel for a couple of seconds, but is it running via the Sniper or just the Ron Francis relay? The fuel pump control wire on the Sniper is what you want powering your fuel pump. The Sniper has it's own relay in its harness, so no need to go through the RF harness relay at all.
Does the handheld stay powered on when the engine cuts off? It should have power at all times when the key is in the run or start positions. If it's powering down, check that the wire connected to the Sniper's pink wire is showing +12v when the key is in either the run or start position. The RF harness EFI crank wire is not suitable for the Sniper, so just want to be sure.
Dave
The overflow tank is from FFR, which is the long tube, and the line to the overflow is from the upper tube directly under the rad cap (supplied by FFR). I do think the cap is bad because when it's fully tighten the cap wiggles. I bought another cap from Napa this morning and it's snug. SO, I assume the coolant issue was due to the cap not being sealed correctly. Which would also fix why none of the coolant when back into the engine once it cooled.
Definitely getting good prime. If you take off the air filter and run a prime you can see the fuel shoot in. Also, when the engine is running the RPM on the digital display of the Sniper looks good. Ranges from 700 RPM to 1500 RPM when I give it gas.
Sniper wiring - If I turn the power to on (not start) the sniper does turn on and stay on. The Sniper is controlling the fuel pump directly (need to double check).
Sniper wiring - If I turn the power to on (not start) the sniper does turn on and stay on. The Sniper is controlling the fuel pump directly (need to double check).
To be clear, I'm referring to the Sniper handheld. The fuel pump should prime, then shut off if the engine isn't started. If the handheld is shutting off with the key on, then we may have identified the issue. Be sure the wire feeding the Sniper's pink wire is hot whenever the key is on and also on when cranking.
bingo2
06-19-2021, 05:02 PM
Geez,, stop chasing your tail. Pull the fuel pump relay from its socket and verify you have +12V on the pink wire while cranking. If you don't, as I suspect, you've found the problem. This is a common issue with Sniper installations.
I am talking about the hand held digital display. If the key is turned on the display is on. I haven’t tested if the display is on while cranking, but is on while the engine is running. I have the pink wire of the sniper connected to the RF electrical choke wire that’s tan that’s part of the ignition feed (I believe 10A). I have the orange RF wire going to the coil.
Is sniper pink connected to the RF electrical choke not correct? I assume not given the electrical choke is 10A only.
NYMike
06-19-2021, 11:35 PM
Sniper pink to electric choke wire is ok per blueprints instructions. Ours is set up that way and it’s fine. Power for the sniper is coming directly from the battery, the pink wire is just an activation signal so a 10a fuse is more than enough.
Thanks for clarifying. Electrical sounds good. I was thinking the power was cutting off to the Sniper, but that isn't the case, so I'm not sure what to do next other than to save the tune and go back through the initial Sniper setup wizard and idle setup steps.
D Stand
06-20-2021, 11:10 AM
What does your TPS register? Should be 0=no throttle and 100=full throttle. Press the throttle after fuel prime but before starting. Once started, what does your IAC read? Also, what is your RPM read when started?
David Williamson
06-20-2021, 12:47 PM
You likely will find the FFR supplied over flow tank is too small. On my Dart 363 - 302 based but holds more coolant than a stock engine I had to get a larger tank. It would overflow when the engine was at operating temp and then drain it when it cooled down.
David W
Update: After speaking with BP, I did reset the wizard as it didn't seem to have one saved properly AND increase the Throttle Screw (thanks NYMIKE for direction on how to do that). As of now, once the car is at operating temp it holds steady @ 1050 RPM (which I'll eventually lower to 850) while holding a 180/190 coolant temp for ~five mins with no issues.
Also, a new radiator cap fixed the overflow issue and fan kicked on once at operating temp.
Next step - take the car to a parking lot and see if I can get it to move!!!
Thanks everyone for the help and thanks NYMIKE
Joel Hauser
06-22-2021, 07:13 AM
Good job, and it only took 4 days from start to finish to diagnose and correct the problem. I'm impressed.
AC Bill
06-23-2021, 05:18 PM
As of now, once the car is at operating temp it holds steady @ 1050 RPM (which I'll eventually lower to 850) while holding a 180/190 coolant temp for ~five mins with no issues. Also, a new radiator cap fixed the overflow issue and fan kicked on once at operating temp.
Sounds like you fixed the issue with just the cap..
You'll want to set the cooling fan to kick on at a higher temperature than normal operating temp. It should be set at 10-15 degrees hotter, and then kicks off when back at operating temp. If it kicks in just as it reaches operating temps, it's going to be running to cold all the time. That may confuse the ECM's rich/lean adjustments.