FFR Stainless header rust?

[Fman]

I purchased the #16793 FFR stainless headers for my Dart 427, I noticed they have rust developing on them. Have been in communications with FFR with multiple email exchanges and they are telling me this is normal to have corrosion on the header? Maybe someone with more expertise than me can confirm this is normal for a stainless header to look like this after 800 miles? I was under the impression when I spent the $850 for them that "stainless steel" meant rust free for the life of the header? This is happening on all the pipes coming off the head not just one.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149378&d=1623388613

[rthomas98]

I purchased the #16793 FFR stainless headers for my Dart 427, I noticed they have rust developing on them. Have been in communications with FFR with multiple email exchanges and they are telling me this is normal to have corrosion on the header? Maybe someone with more expertise than me can confirm this is normal for a stainless header to look like this after 800 miles? I was under the impression when I spent the $850 for them that "stainless steel" meant rust free for the life of the header? This is happening on all the pipes coming off the head not just one.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149378&d=1623388613

The patina is normal and will not penetrate the tube. I used to work for Tenneco a major exhaust manufacturer. I am pretty sure factory five is using either a 409 or 441 stainless for their tubes (its cheap). Most likely 441 as it is better on the hot ends, unfortunately it does show a bit of rust over time. Had they used 304 (very expensive by the way 409 is roughly .30/lb 304 is about $1.30/lb) or a 409 Aluminized this would not show up. My recommendation is get it ceramic coated they will sand the rust off and once coated you won't see it come back.

FYI if you climb under any modern car in look on the upper clam shells of a muffler (typically up near the body out of customers view) you will see the same rust pitting happen. This is because we would typically use standard 409 for savings, I hope this helps.

R.J.

[NAZ]

Agree, 400 series S.S. (Martensitic) will rust and heat will accelerate that. 300 series S.S. (Austenitic) is much more corrosion resistant and more expensive. One way you can tell if you have Martensitic S.S. is it is slightly magnetic where Austenitic S.S. is not.

[Fman]

What I do not understand is there is someone local to me who just built a FFR Cobra with a Coyote and ordered the FFR stainless headers, has 400 miles on his car and his pipes have no rust on them at all. Did they use better quality stainless on them?

If anyone has the #16793 headers for the 351w could you please take a look at yours and see if they are rusting.

[edwardb]

What I do not understand is there is someone local to me who just built a FFR Cobra with a Coyote and ordered the FFR stainless headers, has 400 miles on his car and his pipes have no rust on them at all. Did they use better quality stainless on them?

If anyone has the #16793 headers for the 351w could you please take a look at yours and see if they are rusting.

In my experience, huge difference between header and exhaust wear/colorization between Coyote and just about anything else. Not really a good comparison. With modern EFI, the combustion is so much more controlled (temp, lean/rich, etc.) the wear is significantly reduced. Nothing wrong with carbs and/or aftermarket EFI. But just don't control it like a modern engine. My Coyote Roadster had a very slight amount of color on the SS headers and basically nothing on the SS Gas-N pipes after nearly 6,000 miles before I sold it. My Coupe is around 2,700 miles now and also showing very little signs of anything. Can't even get my finger dirty with soot in the end of the pipes. Pretty crazy.

I can see some bluing on your headers, which is part of what I'm talking about. End of the day -- maybe some difference based on SS material used. But you're going to get some wear. Goes with the territory.

[GoDadGo]

Agree, 400 series S.S. (Martensitic) will rust and heat will accelerate that. 300 series S.S. (Austenitic) is much more corrosion resistant and more expensive. One way you can tell if you have Martensitic S.S. is it is slightly magnetic where Austenitic S.S. is not.

You Really Know A Lot Of Excrement!

...I always learn something from your posts.

[NAZ]

I still remember a few things from my metallurgy classes in college. Probably helps that I've welded a ton of stainless steel of different alloys.

[Fman]

In my experience, huge difference between header and exhaust wear/colorization between Coyote and just about anything else. Not really a good comparison. With modern EFI, the combustion is so much more controlled (temp, lean/rich, etc.) the wear is significantly reduced. Nothing wrong with carbs and/or aftermarket EFI. But just don't control it like a modern engine. My Coyote Roadster had a very slight amount of color on the SS headers and basically nothing on the SS Gas-N pipes after nearly 6,000 miles before I sold it. My Coupe is around 2,700 miles now and also showing very little signs of anything. Can't even get my finger dirty with soot in the end of the pipes. Pretty crazy.

I can see some bluing on your headers, which is part of what I'm talking about. End of the day -- maybe some difference based on SS material used. But you're going to get some wear. Goes with the territory.

Paul, thanks for the clarification. My pipes started turning colors at my first start within a couple minutes of running. I guess my expectations of these headers were they were going to be rust free for the life of them. I would be lying if I was not disappointed in having rust on them for $850. Looks like I will be in another $250 to have to send them out to be ceramic coated. I did use some Mothers metal polish on them last night and the rust comes right off the pipe, for the time being I guess I can polish them up every few months to keep the rust off them.

[J R Jones]

rthomas and NAZ have a handle on this. I have never used 400 series stainless, most of my efforts required aesthetics, so 300 series was SOP. I just bought 304 3/4-0.65 tube on Amazon; it looks terrific and it is USA sourced.
I have found 304 will get a brown stain, but not beyond that or actually rust. Fabricating 304/309 is doable, 316 hardness is more challenging. 309 is all around great. Burns is fantastic at exhaust but they ain't cheap.
They also carry a diversity or tube dimensions.

[Fman]

For comparison could someone with a Coyote shoot a heat gun at your header temperature at normal operating temp. Mine are around 425 degrees with a 427, normal operating temp is around 190 degrees.

[GTBradley]

I just turned over 6000 miles and no rust is appearing on my coyote headers. There is no blueing either, it's just sort of a copper color but definitely not the shiny SS it was when new. With a magnet I detect zero magnetic properties. BTW, the rust you mention is why I've heard the wrap can be bad for headers as it can trap moisture. Though, I would think an extended idle time after driving in wet conditions would dry them out. Anyway, I think you've found a good reason to try the header coating you've been considering.

[BrewCityCobra]

The patina is normal and will not penetrate the tube. I used to work for Tenneco a major exhaust manufacturer. I am pretty sure factory five is using either a 409 or 441 stainless for their tubes (its cheap). Most likely 441 as it is better on the hot ends, unfortunately it does show a bit of rust over time. Had they used 304 (very expensive by the way 409 is roughly .30/lb 304 is about $1.30/lb) or a 409 Aluminized this would not show up. My recommendation is get it ceramic coated they will sand the rust off and once coated you won't see it come back.

FYI if you climb under any modern car in look on the upper clam shells of a muffler (typically up near the body out of customers view) you will see the same rust pitting happen. This is because we would typically use standard 409 for savings, I hope this helps.

R.J.

This is great info - a question for those of us who are still waiting on our engines but have the headers in hand - if I got it ceramic coated ahead of time would that stop the rust from ever appearing or should I just wait until it gets back and clean them up?

[Fman]

I just turned over 6000 miles and no rust is appearing on my coyote headers. There is no blueing either, it's just sort of a copper color but definitely not the shiny SS it was when new. With a magnet I detect zero magnetic properties. BTW, the rust you mention is why I've heard the wrap can be bad for headers as it can trap moisture. Though, I would think an extended idle time after driving in wet conditions would dry them out. Anyway, I think you've found a good reason to try the header coating you've been considering.

Next time your up and running can you shoot a heat gun at your headers, just for kicks would like to see what the temps are. More than likely I will have mine ceramic coated, just a little bummed for $900 these are not holding up like I had hoped for. There is also the hassle of removing them, sending them in and re-installing. Oh well I guess it is what it is.

BrewCityCobra, I would have them ceramic coated before you put them on the car. Just my .02

[rich grsc]

Paul, thanks for the clarification. My pipes started turning colors at my first start within a couple minutes of running. I guess my expectations of these headers were they were going to be rust free for the life of them. I would be lying if I was not disappointed in having rust on them for $850. Looks like I will be in another $250 to have to send them out to be ceramic coated. I did use some Mothers metal polish on them last night and the rust comes right off the pipe, for the time being I guess I can polish them up every few months to keep the rust off them.
That price is a good indication of the type of SS used. A set of 304 headers are in the $1200-1400 range

[GTBradley]

I’ll do that. Actually, I did some extensive temperature investigation yesterday for the other thread. I didn’t write down the header temps though, so I’ll do it again. The short of it was I was surprised to see how hot the the lower ¾” square tube was getting near the header - 210F to 220F.

[CobraboyDR]

Agree, 400 series S.S. (Martensitic) will rust and heat will accelerate that. 300 series S.S. (Austenitic) is much more corrosion resistant and more expensive. One way you can tell if you have Martensitic S.S. is it is slightly magnetic where Austenitic S.S. is not.Señor NAZ, you are a wealth of knowledge, and I thank you for your input.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3sOuEv0E2I

;)

[J R Jones]

An infrared heat indicating gun does not read shiny/reflective surfaces accurately.
There is not a clean solution for reading header heat. If you don't mind the clean-up you could shoot target spots/areas with black header paint for the test.
A thermocouple is an alternative but without fastening to the pipe (hose clamp), I would not bet on the reading.
Ironically, a small strong magnet might stick to 400 series SS well enough to give you an infrared target. When yer done...don't touch that.
jim

[nucjd19]

Paul, thanks for the clarification. My pipes started turning colors at my first start within a couple minutes of running. I guess my expectations of these headers were they were going to be rust free for the life of them. I would be lying if I was not disappointed in having rust on them for $850. Looks like I will be in another $250 to have to send them out to be ceramic coated. I did use some Mothers metal polish on them last night and the rust comes right off the pipe, for the time being I guess I can polish them up every few months to keep the rust off them.

Hey Fman. Mine are changing colors heading towards yours after about 30 miles. So I think like edwardb said our older type engines are going to respond differently than the coyote engine. I will be following your ceramic coating adventures as I might be heading down the some direction down the road.

[NAZ]

Keep in mind that when measuring and comparing header temps, a lean mixture & ignition timing have a significant impact on exhaust temps. You can burn the VHT header paint off a set of headers in minutes if the base timing is too far retarded, and that paint advertises a range of 1300F or more. When timing is retarded, a lot of fuel is still burning in the header.

[Fman]

Hey Fman. Mine are changing colors heading towards yours after about 30 miles. So I think like edwardb said our older type engines are going to respond differently than the coyote engine. I will be following your ceramic coating adventures as I might be heading down the some direction down the road.

I am not concerned about the color changes more so the rust/patina or whatever they are calling it. All good, moving on and will deal with it later in the year this winter. Having too much fun driving this car, lotta smiles per gallon happening:cool:

[BadAsp427]

So I may have missed it if someone else mentioned this, but there is a way to get those headers looking pretty good again for awhile. This stuff works fantastic. Just do a google search and find a distributor to purchase it from. "Harris ARCP302 CPD302SS Stainless Steel Cleaner, 24 oz."

Here are a couple before and after photos of my headers after using this stuff. I did not have the actual rust pitting, but I'm sure that with this stuff and a bit of polishing you can clean those back up pretty good. The compound 302 is also a rust remover.
149423 149424 149425

[Fman]

So I may have missed it if someone else mentioned this, but there is a way to get those headers looking pretty good again for awhile. This stuff works fantastic. Just do a google search and find a distributor to purchase it from. "Harris ARCP302 CPD302SS Stainless Steel Cleaner, 24 oz."

Here are a couple before and after photos of my headers after using this stuff. I did not have the actual rust pitting, but I'm sure that with this stuff and a bit of polishing you can clean those back up pretty good. The compound 302 is also a rust remover.
149423 149424 149425

How long do you think they will stay in that new condition? They look great but if that is a temporary fix would be quite the task to pull your headers every year and polish them out.

[BadAsp427]

How long do you think they will stay in that new condition? They look great but if that is a temporary fix would be quite the task to pull your headers every year and polish them out.

That is a good question. Actually, once I got the carb and timing adjusted properly, they have stayed looking really good for the past 8000 miles. I actually use the compound 302 occasionally right the headers while on the engine. It works more via chemical reaction than by rubbing/polishing. Either way, the pipes will yellow if they get excessively hot. As for taking them off to clean them up, it takes about 30 minutes to take each side off, actually not very hard at all. The only real tough part are the rear header bolts on the driver's side. But I agree, don't want to do it more than needed.

[Fman]

That is a good question. Actually, once I got the carb and timing adjusted properly, they have stayed looking really good for the past 8000 miles. I actually use the compound 302 occasionally right the headers while on the engine. It works more via chemical reaction than by rubbing/polishing. Either way, the pipes will yellow if they get excessively hot. As for taking them off to clean them up, it takes about 30 minutes to take each side off, actually not very hard at all. The only real tough part are the rear header bolts on the driver's side. But I agree, don't want to do it more than needed.

I'm going to try and pick up some Compound 302, looks like it is hard to find on the internet. Dont see it on Amazom but it looks like a welding shop local to me was listed as a supplier. I will give them a call tomorrow. While we are on topic of pipes, my gas n pipes are getting a yellow hue to them on the bends coming out of the body. Assuming this product would also take care of yellowing?

Any tips to using it? Assuming a Terry cloth towel for application and polish out?

[edwardb]

X2 on the Compound 302. I've been using it for several years now (a tub goes a long way) and it's pretty magical. Some comments though. I bought mine on Amazon but also see it's not listed now. Available elsewhere so worth getting. It's not an abrasive product. It works by chemical reaction. The primary ingredients being hydrochloric acid and ferric chloride. So you want to use care including hand protection. Also be careful where you store it. I had it in my steel cabinet above my workbench and now have a nice rust streak above where it was stored. Clearly vents a bit. I've used it on exhaust headers. But mainly I've used it on Gas-N SS pipes. The tan or straw color where the pipes come out of the body will almost immediately return to their original color by just wiping it on and wiping it back off a minute or two later. Then use a typical metal cleaner (Mother's, Meguiar's, whatever) to do a final clean and polish. How long it lasts goes back to the discussion about engine tuning, mix, timing, etc. Some are clearly better than others.

Separate but related -- I get wanting the headers to look nice. But I would never take them on/off regularly for the sole purpose of aesthetics. Just too much work (reflects my current Coyote build...) plus getting them sealed up and bolts torqued and staying that way is too important to be messing with them IMO. Ceramic may be the way to go and will probably stay looking best for the longest. But they'll never polish up like your side pipes and stay that way. Some things are just the way they are. At least that's my take and I'm pretty picky about how mine looks.

[D Stand]

Thanks for the tip on the polish. I bought headers from Georgie at GAS-N and they have discolored but not rusted yet. His site says he makes them out of 304 stainless so should not rust per this new found knowledge from you guys.

[GTBradley]

Just don’t let it sit too long any one area as I’ve found it to dull the shine some.

[Fman]

X2 on the Compound 302. I've been using it for several years now (a tub goes a long way) and it's pretty magical. Some comments though. I bought mine on Amazon but also see it's not listed now. Available elsewhere so worth getting. It's not an abrasive product. It works by chemical reaction. The primary ingredients being hydrochloric acid and ferric chloride. So you want to use care including hand protection. Also be careful where you store it. I had it in my steel cabinet above my workbench and now have a nice rust streak above where it was stored. Clearly vents a bit. I've used it on exhaust headers. But mainly I've used it on Gas-N SS pipes. The tan or straw color where the pipes come out of the body will almost immediately return to their original color by just wiping it on and wiping it back off a minute or two later. Then use a typical metal cleaner (Mother's, Meguiar's, whatever) to do a final clean and polish. How long it lasts goes back to the discussion about engine tuning, mix, timing, etc. Some are clearly better than others.

Separate but related -- I get wanting the headers to look nice. But I would never take them on/off regularly for the sole purpose of aesthetics. Just too much work (reflects my current Coyote build...) plus getting them sealed up and bolts torqued and staying that way is too important to be messing with them IMO. Ceramic may be the way to go and will probably stay looking best for the longest. But they'll never polish up like your side pipes and stay that way. Some things are just the way they are. At least that's my take and I'm pretty picky about how mine looks.

Thanks again Paul for all the info, as always much appreciated. I am not concerned about the discoloration of my headers more so the rust/patina developing. More than likely this winter I will pull them and send them off to a local powder coater for a ceramic coat, definitely only want to do it once.

[phileas_fogg]

Just don’t let it sit too long any one area as I’ve found it to dull the shine some.

x2. Found out the hard way.


John