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View Full Version : Build continues and a visit to the Simeon museum and a look at the first Daytona



JohnMac
06-09-2021, 06:50 AM
June 9, 2021… the weather’s really warming up and we’ve finally turned the ac on in the shop. George has been busy working on fabricating a aircleaner setup for the Sniper EFI. Because the Sniper requires a taller intake manifold, there’s not much room between the hood and the efi inlets.

We’ve mounted the hood which presents another set of issues- the fit! As many have found, the hood doesn’t fit the body and on the passenger side, it’s about 3/4” high. We’ve got the hatches mounted but the hoods another problem. When we mounted the body a couple week ago, I found that the kamm tail didn’t fit tightly against the chassis plates. I used a deadblow hammer and tapping the mould area around the kamm tail was able to move the body about 1/4”. Attaching the taillights tightened everything up. Another problem was the chassis mount for the door latch bolt. It was 1/2” lower then the driver’s side and created a real issue adjusting the passenger door. Thankyou FF5!

Yesterday I assembled the headlight buckets, pretty easy. Our kit came with cutouts and the passenger side headlight cutout was oval instead of round. Another job for the grinder.

Last week we ran up to the Simeon museum to take a look at CS 2287, the first one. It’s pretty much in unrestored condition. Some interesting features: the spoiler has a rectangular cut out on the back side the width of the stripes which vents air out of the interior. Also there are no vents on the sides of the kamm tail. Remember that this car was sold to Phil Spector and driven on the street. The interior is very stark as you’d expect of a race car. It’s run frequently and is in drivable condition. The suspension uses leaf springs ft & rr as upper control arms. The driver’s seat is angled very slightly to the left and there’s not much foot room on the passenger side. Another interesting aspect is how far forward the engine sits in the frame, unlike FF5 chassis. Wheels are knock-off pin drive magnesium and probably not very airtight as the lf front was flat, or was it the lf rear? One area of the replicas that’s always bothered me has been the shape or the bodies around the top corner of the windshield. On the original this corner area is more rounded and actually makes the cor look different and a bit squat. This probably has to do with the windshield. By the way, we temporarily installed the windshield in the body and unlike others found it fit very well as did the rear hatch. The windshield on the original is glass and the rear is plexiglass and riveted in place. There’s no latch in back- a spring loaded pin holds the hatch down.

Mac Morgan

Shakey
06-09-2021, 06:20 PM
Nice write up JohnMac!
Anymore info on the vent in the rear spoiler? I have heard of this before and thought it provided some aerodynamic benefits as well.

-Shakey

GThompson
06-10-2021, 04:52 AM
It’s good to hear that FFR has improved the body! My gen-1-ish black-body kit has a couple of big issues that have since been fixed with the updates they’ve made over the last 14 years (hence part of the reason I’m still in the bodywork phase...).

The original Daytonas were NOT built with comfort in mind! Passenger? LOL!! The only reason it even had a passenger-side seat was to meet the FIA rules. The vent hole at the top of the spoiler was to use the low pressure area there to pull air out of the interior to reduce the exhaust fumes in the cabin, same reason the brake ducts on the sides of the Kamm tail were covered up after the first few races in 1964 (to keep exhaust fumes out of the cabin). At one of the races the drivers got so hot that they cut vents in the roof at the top of the windshield to get more cool air in to the drivers. The cars were NOT comfortable to drive, but they were fast! The body shape that Peter Brock designed was really slippery. But the shape got lost in translation when the Italians at Carrozzeria Grandport built CSX2299. They built that one the way they thought it should look, not per Peter’s drawings. The roofline on 2299 was a bit taller, was 3-4mph slower at Le Mans, was also Dan Gurney’s favorite, he only drove 2299.

Gotta’ remember that the chassis for the original 6 Daytonas were all based on the 289 Cobra chassis with the transverse leaf-spring suspension and 3” frame tubes (coilovers at all 4 corners and 4” frame tubing weren’t available on the 289 chassis, only the 427 chassis). The bodies on the 6 originals are each unique, parts can’t be swapped among them due to door shape and roofline profile. And they only have a 90” wheelbase (our FFR Daytonas have 95” wheelbases and the body size is all proportionately bigger), again due to the FIA homologation rules. I suspect that the flat tire(s) are partially due to the magnesium wheels on 2287 probably being rather porous due to corosion over the years of street use as well as the Goodyear racing tires being old (Simeone has stated that they maintain the cars but do not restore them and regular tire changes on their collection could get STUPID expensive!). 2287 has lived a very checkered life. All 6 have seen different levels of restoration and care over the years, kind of like the Ship of Theseus I gotta’ believe. If you ever get a chance to talk to Peter Brock, take it!!! He has a bunch of stories about building the originals.

The jump that FFR took in building the gen 3 car has made their kit an AWESOME performance car but the shape is really the only similarity to the originals. I’m trying to replicate 2299 with mine. I know it won’t be close in the eye of Shelby officianados (sp?) but the other 99.something % of the world won’t know the difference. Good luck with yours!! It sounds like you’re making good progress!!

WIS89
06-10-2021, 08:04 AM
Mac and George-

Thanks for your thoughts, as well as the details on the originals. I enjoy hearing of people's experiences with their interactions with originals when they occur. Frankly, I find great pleasure in reading and hearing of people's experiences with each -- the originals as well as the FF versions! I certainly live vicariously through these experiences.

However, the reason for my comment is George with the Ship of Theseus reference; nicely done!! I can't think of a better analog to what we are doing than that! Well played Sir, and thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Best to you both.

Regards,

Steve

John Dol
06-10-2021, 03:18 PM
I've been to the museum and before I went the first time I could not really understand why the original car had not been restored like the other 5. That was until I saw it. The years of (ab)use just droop off of the car. The scratches, the dings and dents are scars of a life time spent racing and then I got it. What a car!!

As far as the fitment goes, yeah it leaves a little to be desired but not to the point where you can't fix it. Stick with it, before you know you'll be motoring with a big grin on your face.

I went to the grocery store in the Coupe today with my 17 year old daughter. Before we could leave, several young guys wanted to know all about the car and asked politely if they could take pictures. My daughter felt like we reached celebrity status! :cool:

John

JohnMac
06-14-2021, 06:49 AM
A couple of years ago Pete Brock spoke at Simeone’s about he career. Wikipedia has a much better write up so I won’t bore everyone here. But he had a number of interesting stories. While at GM he worked on the 57 Stingray prototype race car that went to Sebring. Instead of using a new design in braking systems (disc brakes) GMs supplier talked them into keeping the old drum brakes. Apparently both Stirling Moss and Fangio tested the car overheating both the brakes and engine. He also spoke of the addition of a strip of aluminum while testing the car at Spa in Belgium. Phil Hill told them that the car became quite dangerous at top-end due to lack of down force. Phil Remington drill-screwed a strip of aluminum to the rear which was later trimmed a bit stabilizing it. The Spoiler on Simeone’s car looks to be much more than a strip of aluminum and also contains a rectangular opening on the back side for venting air or maybe exhaust fumes from the interior.